Purify on R3 weapons is making 1 class Godlike - Nobody tought of that or what?

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Why should it be buried when it's a valid complaint?

klys

Because the discussion isn't going anywhere- people on the last page stating the same thing said on page 1- no1 is changing their mind because of counter-arguments.
Aside from that, it belongs in the NW forum 1. because the author clearly said it was directed at NW... and 2. because no1 is arguing that the proc has some outrageous advantage outside NW. So take it to the NW-subforum and discuss strategies on how to counter the proc with your teams- instead of whining about it.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Hmmm... I have to agree with poster above me.

Its only in Nation Wars against weak people where the strength of my proc really shines.

In 1vs1 pk against other r9rr, it doesn't proc terribly often, and there are a variety of combos that can reliable do enough dmg to kill me before my wep procs.

In TW, it certainly is useful to have, but I can still definitely die if I'm not careful about noticing where the enemies are, since multiple archers targetting you simultaneously almost guarantees a quick purge or three.

People are upset because nation wars is a money-making instance where the proc really shines. However as many people have pointed out, there are definitely ways to counter it. Where your frustration really should lie is with the allies of yours who undo what you've done. I get it! When I use chromatic seal to sleep somebody, I get extremely annoyed when somebody goes and pokes the person I've just slept. Totally get it. Still thing is though, you shouldn't be blaming the weapon proc itself; since it won't be changed now, what you can focus on is improving team work and trying to communicate with your allies better, and hope that, luck of the draw, your allies aren't brain-dead!

Cheers,

Aeliah

Zsw - Dreamweaver

klys wrote: »

Because the discussion isn't going anywhere- people on the last page stating the same thing said on page 1- no1 is changing their mind because of counter-arguments.
Aside from that, it belongs in the NW forum 1. because the author clearly said it was directed at NW... and 2. because no1 is arguing that the proc has some outrageous advantage outside NW. So take it to the NW-subforum and discuss strategies on how to counter the proc with your teams- instead of whining about it.

To be honest I have never seen any thread on this forum change people's mind irregardless of the arguments or counter arguments. When something OP happens, a lot of people actually believe that "its their turn to be OP" because they weren't OP before. When some nerf happens, people attribute it to "it was op anyway" without considering the impact.

Sylvae - Sanctuary

For any shift in the proc, it would affect all aspects of the game as opposed to just NW. So it's better here where people would point out that, as opposed to NW where it would be rather difficult to argue it isn't strong with current NW mechanics as they are.

Still like the idea of being allowed to kill my own team mates if they are under a set amount of soulforce and are near a Purify user. Would create alot of complaints, but also solve a problem without touching the proc.

SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver

The purify proc was out before NWs started albeit in a small number of people so we didn't see the extent of it we do today. If NWs didn't exist this wouldn't be such an issue. The problem with the skill is the holypath like effect that comes with the proc, allowing someone to almost constantly move at a speed that allows them to get out DD range.

Nation Wars is a small map so it only takes a few of these procs for a caster to get over to the other side and often doesn't allow the other side to get to the flag carrier let alone coordinate to take them down.

Outside of NW the proc is not going to swing results or effect people on such a large scale...

Joshcja - Sanctuary

To anyone comparing GOF/Spirit black hole to purify


GoF/black hole are completely negated by anythign that stops attacks

Purify is negated by a grad total of 2 60 second plus CD skills for less than a charm tick.

one of these things is not like the other

Adroit - Lost City

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

To anyone comparing GOF/Spirit black hole to purify


GoF/black hole are completely negated by anythign that stops attacks

Purify is negated by a grad total of 2 60 second plus CD skills for less than a charm tick.

one of these things is not like the other

That is a terrible argument.. even if purify was in fact OP (which I'm not sure I'd agree with), this would not be the reason.

Nry - Lost City

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

That is a terrible argument.. even if purify was in fact OP (which I'm not sure I'd agree with), this would not be the reason.

Your videos make it pretty clear it's OP'd in NW at the very least...ijs. b:surrender

There is no way to counter purify proc in NW for most situations no matter how you look at it. If a well-geared caster has the flag you only have a short period of time to stop them before they capture it...and unless you have a squad full of people who are equal gear/better geared than the caster with the flag you likely will not be able to kill them before they can capture it.

I've had a certain veno win a war 1v20 because we were unable to stop him from capturing the flag even though we were attacking him the entire time he had it. Explain how you would view this if you would not agree that the proc is OP.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

That is a terrible argument.. even if purify was in fact OP (which I'm not sure I'd agree with), this would not be the reason.

...

Way to read my post

I do think the proc is beyond OP however I was simply saying purify is incomparable to offensive weapon procs and I'll add on that it has more in common with geni skills apocs and static buffs

I went over why purify is essentially uncounterable even in 1v1 pvp a looong time ago... like 2 years ago and even posted a short and sweet version earlier in the thread.. So tbh I couldn't care less what is said in this thread balance wise purify was OP on r8r and g 13 weapons, on r999 its flat out stupid arguing otherwise is just silly but by all means feel free to keep yapping.
Again though I have no interest in that debate whatsoever.

Just reinforce the point in my previous post for the bad readers here:

GOF/SBH have nothing in common with purify whatsoever in terms of functionality or in terms of their effect on pvp in general. Trying to compare it to any weapon proc sans infinite is pretty pointless

Adroit - Lost City

Nry - Lost City wrote: »

Your videos make it pretty clear it's OP'd in NW at the very least...ijs. b:surrender

There is no way to counter purify proc in NW for most situations no matter how you look at it. If a well-geared caster has the flag you only have a short period of time to stop them before they capture it...and unless you have a squad full of people who are equal gear/better geared than the caster with the flag you likely will not be able to kill them before they can capture it.

I've had a certain veno win a war 1v20 because we were unable to stop him from capturing the flag even though we were attacking him the entire time he had it. Explain how you would view this if you would not agree that the proc is OP.

All it takes to take down a purify user is 1-2 equally/better geared opponents and then tell anyone that does poo damage not to attack.. if you don't have equally geared opponents on your side it makes it very difficult to talk about balance.. to go back to my previous example, how many level 30s should it take to take down a level 100 for you to consider it balanced? It's not a very easy question lol

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

All it takes to take down a purify user is 1-2 equally/better geared opponents and then tell anyone that does poo damage not to attack.. if you don't have equally geared opponents on your side it makes it very difficult to talk about balance.. to go back to my previous example, how many level 30s should it take to take down a level 100 for you to consider it balanced? It's not a very easy question lol

In the pw tournament the PWI team was destroyed by a wiz using a r8r purify weapon if I remember correctly. I may be mistaken here but i remember a r8r purify mage wrecking shop somewhere in the tourny

6 full +12 josd R9's

couldn't kill 1 r8r purify wiz in a 6v6 situation

Adroit - Lost City

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

...

Way to read my post

I do think the proc is beyond OP however I was simply saying purify is incomparable to offensive weapon procs and I'll add on that it has more in common with geni skills apocs and static buffs

I went over why purify is essentially uncounterable even in 1v1 pvp a looong time ago... like 2 years ago and even posted a short and sweet version earlier in the thread.. So tbh I couldn't care less what is said in this thread balance wise purify was OP on r8r and g 13 weapons, on r999 its flat out stupid arguing otherwise is just silly but by all means feel free to keep yapping.
Again though I have no interest in that debate whatsoever.

Just reinforce the point in my previous post for the bad readers here:

GOF/SBH have nothing in common with purify whatsoever in terms of functionality or in terms of their effect on pvp in general. Trying to compare it to any weapon proc sans infinite is pretty pointless

Using your logic, purge is the only proc out of the three you mentioned where someone could have a +0 wep, no gear on whatsoever and still be a contributing factor in taking down a full buffed +12 r9rrr josd char, therefore it is nothing like the other procs and is OP. It is not necessary for a proc to be similar to the others for it to be balanced with them, and I'd be very curious to hear why purify proc is not balanced in 1v1s lol

SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver

Nry - Lost City wrote: »

I've had a certain veno win a war 1v20 because we were unable to stop him from capturing the flag even though we were attacking him the entire time he had it. Explain how you would view this if you would not agree that the proc is OP.

Then your strategy is at fault and communication of the people in the war. People seem to have no clue sometimes when it comes to nation wars and use it completely as a pk grounds. I am guessing the 20 in the war in no way attempted to stop the veno from reaching the flag or even from digging it? Sure when a r9rr caster grabs the flag it could be game over but if you sleep/stun/seal and don't attack them the purify proc doesn't come into play. 20v1 there is no excuse not to have people at each spawn point at least ready to grab the flag.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Using your logic, purge is the only proc out of the three you mentioned where someone could have a +0 wep, no gear on whatsoever and still be a contributing factor in taking down a full buffed +12 r9rrr josd char, therefore it is nothing like the other procs and is OP. It is not necessary for a proc to be similar to the others for it to be balanced with them, and I'd be very curious to hear why purify proc is not balanced in 1v1s lol

Name any other proc that allows you to completely negate any form of crowd control and waste your opponent's chi and genie and allowing you to get out of attack range with absolutely no cost to you. GoF takes 5% of your HP and offers no way to stop an opponent from kiting. Spirit Blackhole can purge but has no way of stopping the opponent from rebuffing, kiting, or taking other defense measures. Purify Proc allows the wielder to get far out of range with the only way of catching up being to waste genie, apothecary, or a speed skill.

It's imbalanced in group and 1v1 PvP, not nearly as much in 1v1 seeing as it won't proc as much against an equally geared opponent that isn't DPSing you, but it's still not what I'd call balanced. Not anywhere close.

Nry - Lost City

SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Then your strategy is at fault and communication of the people in the war. People seem to have no clue sometimes when it comes to nation wars and use it completely as a pk grounds. I am guessing the 20 in the war in no way attempted to stop the veno from reaching the flag or even from digging it? Sure when a r9rr caster grabs the flag it could be game over but if you sleep/stun/seal and don't attack them the purify proc doesn't come into play. 20v1 there is no excuse not to have people at each spawn point at least ready to grab the flag.

Everyone from the opposing nation got kicked out except for the veno and he happened to be at the spawn point it spawned at and immune potted. His nation was one capture away from winning when he got it.

To kill someone 20v1 you should not need coordination. By saying 20 people trying to kill 1 person is a bad strategy to counter a proc on a weapon you just confirm what I already know...it is overpowered.

Nry - Lost City

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

All it takes to take down a purify user is 1-2 equally/better geared opponents and then tell anyone that does poo damage not to attack.. if you don't have equally geared opponents on your side it makes it very difficult to talk about balance.. to go back to my previous example, how many level 30s should it take to take down a level 100 for you to consider it balanced? It's not a very easy question lol

Obviously balance is a big factor because you can't really control who enters a war with you. And that is a big part of the problem. How do you counter the proc when you can't stop badly geared allies from attacking? Even if you ask them not to attack it's not like they will all listen. And honestly having 20 people attacking 1 person should give you a better chance of killing said person than having 2 people attacking 1 person. A persons chances of surviving shouldn't increase as more people attack them...imo anyways. :S

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

Nry - Lost City wrote: »

Your videos make it pretty clear it's OP'd in NW at the very least...ijs. b:surrender

There is no way to counter purify proc in NW for most situations no matter how you look at it. If a well-geared caster has the flag you only have a short period of time to stop them before they capture it...and unless you have a squad full of people who are equal gear/better geared than the caster with the flag you likely will not be able to kill them before they can capture it.

I've had a certain veno win a war 1v20 because we were unable to stop him from capturing the flag even though we were attacking him the entire time he had it. Explain how you would view this if you would not agree that the proc is OP.

venos are OP

Nry - Lost City

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

venos are OP

His weapon was for sure b:laugh

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Using your logic, purge is the only proc out of the three you mentioned where someone could have a +0 wep, no gear on whatsoever and still be a contributing factor in taking down a full buffed +12 r9rrr josd char, therefore it is nothing like the other procs and is OP.

Yup SBH was a pretty silly proc however it shares the weakness of all weapon procs aka you need to attack for it to work. Also incomparable effects are not automatically OP however we can take class skills geni skills and apocs as a base for these procs and compare the general power levels of em

It is not necessary for a proc to be similar to the others for it to be balanced with them, and I'd be very curious to hear why purify proc is not balanced in 1v1s lol

Vs another purify user sure its balanced lol.

Wiz is arguably the best class vs purify users however the effect of the proc is still relevant in this matchup.

Its small things like the chance to purify on undine strike or the first hit of your spark combo after you've burned all their immune items. But it does force playstyle changes that flat out raise your overall survivability by a pretty huge margin.

Now compare any purify using class to any non purify class with and without the proc objectively and consider the impact of the proc.

Its huge. Its a total change in play style or in extreme cases full endgame gear sets and even cultivations for both the purify user and any opponent. However the same could to an extent be said for any proc. What forces purify over the edge and into stupid OP land for me is the following.

Consider other hit = buff or % chance immune skills in game along with apocs and geni skills

Compare them to purify proc

Purify is OP in my mind because unlike other procs in game purify is as strong or stronger than many of the skills or items that provide similar effects.

Again it can be worked around by some classes without a drastic change to playstyle (clerics seekers and wizzies mainly) however thats a damn small list and even then the proc is relevant and powerful.

As a disclaimer I consider all R9 weapons to be flat out stupid due to them having both the highest offensive stats in game as well as the strongest relevant proc effect in game. Something that every other gear tier avoids like the plauge even going as far back as the days of tt99 and lunar being somewhat capped gear (HS being the one real exception thus why archers nutted themselves over it so much)

SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver

Nry - Lost City wrote: »

Everyone from the opposing nation got kicked out except for the veno and he happened to be at the spawn point it spawned at and immune potted. His nation was one capture away from winning when he got it.

To kill someone 20v1 you should not need coordination. By saying 20 people trying to kill 1 person is a bad strategy to counter a proc on a weapon you just confirm what I already know...it is overpowered.

I am not arguing that it is not OP in NWs, I agree and it has been to my advantage numerour times. Your initial post is a completely different context than above, my response was based on a single veno entering a 20v1 and managing to pull off 2 flag captures. In that situation a number of classes could capture a flag and pull off a win, high HP barbs, quick archers, BMs with anitstun+speed...

You can not also always expect 20 people to kill a single person anyway, too many people are either really bad at playing, have crappy gear or have forgoten how to use skills. I can often pick off a whole squad in NWs regardless of purify proc.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I am not arguing that it is not OP in NWs, I agree and it has been to my advantage numerour times. Your initial post is a completely different context than above, my response was based on a single veno entering a 20v1 and managing to pull off 2 flag captures. In that situation a number of classes could capture a flag and pull off a win, high HP barbs, quick archers, BMs with anitstun+speed...

You can not also always expect 20 people to kill a single person anyway, too many people are either really bad at playing, have crappy gear or have forgoten how to use skills. I can often pick off a whole squad in NWs regardless of purify proc.

I have yet to hear a story of any class without purify proc, regardless of gears, pull off a 1 v 20 in nation wars. And that is assuming the 20 people were to an extent trying to win the battle. (So at least a few people camping at each capture point and actually rushing for the flag carrier when the flag is picked up) Meanwhile we have multiple examples of casters with purify proc winning at impossible odds as such.

In 1 v 1 it's not as op. But still makes it even more "gear over skill" than without. Since you can no longer stunlock the enemy, the only way to win is to be able to tank them. And that requires gear, not skills.

Edit: Level 30 to 100 is a slightly different comparison, since they don't have all their skills yet. If instead we were to ask how many level 100s using level 30 gears does it take to kill a single 100 with average gears, I'd say 20 people could do it.

Nry - Lost City

SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I am not arguing that it is not OP in NWs, I agree and it has been to my advantage numerour times. Your initial post is a completely different context than above, my response was based on a single veno entering a 20v1 and managing to pull off 2 flag captures. In that situation a number of classes could capture a flag and pull off a win, high HP barbs, quick archers, BMs with anitstun+speed...

You can not also always expect 20 people to kill a single person anyway, too many people are either really bad at playing, have crappy gear or have forgoten how to use skills. I can often pick off a whole squad in NWs regardless of purify proc.

As Zsw said above...

You're right that non-caster classes can capture the flag effectively and be hard to stop but more often than not you can stop them unless they are perma anti-stunned but even if they are they can be debuffed and killed usually when 20 people are after them since they aren't running at max speed. (Too lazy to fix run on sentence soz)

...And I'd have to disagree with you...20 people should be able to kill 1 person...especially when that 1 person isn't fighting back most of the time.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Well, a r9rr +12 jades archer several months ago (before there were any other r9rr ppls) once held off a land from all comers 1 vs 20 for 10 minutes until the rest of my squad came and rescued him and won the battle. Needless to say he got 3k contribution, and he even managed to carry flag once.

Would it be possible nowadays? With a lot of luck (weak 20 ppl) maybe, not particularly optimistic lol. Oh, do keep in mind archers have stealth for when things get really hairy, and in theory they could rush the flag in faster than others could keep up, and while maintaining anti-stun most of the way to boot.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well, a r9rr +12 jades archer several months ago (before there were any other r9rr ppls) once held off a land from all comers 1 vs 20 for 10 minutes until the rest of my squad came and rescued him and won the battle. Needless to say he got 3k contribution, and he even managed to carry flag once.

Would it be possible nowadays? With a lot of luck (weak 20 ppl) maybe, not particularly optimistic lol. Oh, do keep in mind archers have stealth for when things get really hairy, and in theory they could rush the flag in faster than others could keep up, and while maintaining anti-stun most of the way to boot.

Problem is, he didn't win solo. Whereas a caster is perfectly capable of not only holding it, but also winning it solo =/

Adroit - Lost City

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Wiz is arguably the best class vs purify users however the effect of the proc is still relevant in this matchup.

Its small things like the chance to purify on undine strike or the first hit of your spark combo after you've burned all their immune items. But it does force playstyle changes that flat out raise your overall survivability by a pretty huge margin.

Now compare any purify using class to any non purify class with and without the proc objectively and consider the impact of the proc.

Its huge. Its a total change in play style or in extreme cases full endgame gear sets and even cultivations for both the purify user and any opponent. However the same could to an extent be said for any proc. What forces purify over the edge and into stupid OP land for me is the following.

Consider other hit = buff or % chance immune skills in game along with apocs and geni skills

Compare them to purify proc

Purify is OP in my mind because unlike other procs in game purify is as strong or stronger than many of the skills or items that provide similar effects.

Again it can be worked around by some classes without a drastic change to playstyle (clerics seekers and wizzies mainly) however thats a damn small list and even then the proc is relevant and powerful.

As a disclaimer I consider all R9 weapons to be flat out stupid due to them having both the highest offensive stats in game as well as the strongest relevant proc effect in game. Something that every other gear tier avoids like the plauge even going as far back as the days of tt99 and lunar being somewhat capped gear (HS being the one real exception thus why archers nutted themselves over it so much)

I'm really not interested in arguing about this, these kinds of discussions never get anywhere. I would love to see you 1v1 a few non-casters on a wiz though (a competent sin or bm for example) and then come back here telling me it is so OP.. or even better just try to last for more than 5 mins without a purify wep.. back before morai skills and 3rd r9 this was easily doable.. but times have changed :P

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I'm really not interested in arguing about this, these kinds of discussions never get anywhere. I would love to see you 1v1 a few non-casters on a wiz though (a competent sin or bm for example) and then come back here telling me it is so OP.. or even better just try to last for more than 5 mins without a purify wep.. back before morai skills and 3rd r9 this was easily doable.. but times have changed :P

Yet again, what you fail to understand is that just because something is at a disadvantage doesn't mean it needs to be over-buffed. Giving a class new ways to fight if they're at a serious disadvantage against every other class is fine, but giving them something that turns them into the thing other classes can barely touch? That's just as bad as the thing that made them need a buff in the first place. The only reason Casters are okay with it is because instead of caring about a balanced game they want to be the strongest. At least, most of them do. They have this misguided notion that because Sins gave them so much trouble in the past they deserve to be OP, when really it gets the game nowhere.

PvP was somewhat balanced at end game before R9R3 became so readily available, you couldn't simply faceroll an Arcane with high APS. It took timing. Get off this "boo hoo we were so underpowered" train already, because the fact of the matter is that's not even true. Especially after you got Morai. Once people, especially Wizards, got Morai skills high APS builds became less effective in PvP. Purify Spell is overpowered and un-needed.

Adroit - Lost City

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yet again, what you fail to understand is that just because something is at a disadvantage doesn't mean it needs to be over-buffed. Giving a class new ways to fight if they're at a serious disadvantage against every other class is fine, but giving them something that turns them into the thing other classes can barely touch? That's just as bad as the thing that made them need a buff in the first place. The only reason Casters are okay with it is because instead of caring about a balanced game they want to be the strongest. At least, most of them do. They have this misguided notion that because Sins gave them so much trouble in the past they deserve to be OP, when really it gets the game nowhere.

PvP was somewhat balanced at end game before R9R3 became so readily available, you couldn't simply faceroll an Arcane with high APS. It took timing. Get off this "boo hoo we were so underpowered" train already, because the fact of the matter is that's not even true. Especially after you got Morai. Once people, especially Wizards, got Morai skills high APS builds became less effective in PvP. Purify Spell is overpowered and un-needed.

A whole lot of ad hominem in there without any substance to your post. You'd probably be having a lot more fun right now if you started learning how to pvp without aps and spent less time QQing on the forums. Casters would be horribly underpowered if you just removed purify proc tomorrow without changing anything else, and no amount of whining from you is going to get the devs to give you easy mode again.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I'm really not interested in arguing about this, these kinds of discussions never get anywhere. I would love to see you 1v1 a few non-casters on a wiz though (a competent sin or bm for example) and then come back here telling me it is so OP.. or even better just try to last for more than 5 mins without a purify wep.. back before morai skills and 3rd r9 this was easily doable.. but times have changed :P

Or you could answer the clear and accurate statements in my post.

I see no reason to r9 my wiz alt just to indisputably prove an argument. Since A: that would take months and B: If your correct you can simply disprove my claims right here and now with clear and objective arguments.

Or C: you really have no reply and are going back to ye ole "well you dont know because your not 10x r999 on x class"

But to answer your above statement.

Yes, Lets compare Gen 1 sins to gen 1 anything else. LOLOLOL. Lets compare R9 1st cast to r999 and say that arcane r999 needs purify because r9 loses to r999. Oh and lets complain about a skillset release that greatly benefited your class and gear releases that benefited your class.

Pro use of repeated logical fallacies.

klys

Yep. Everyone is just repeating the same nonsense over and over- the discussion isn't going anywhere. Why isn't this in the NW sub-forum yet?