Strategies as a bm for NW?

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No No No, I mean they don't even move or try and CC to get away from the spawn killers. Like I watched clerics and other classes just stand there after respawn, buff, and once the immunity wears off - die. Not even moved one inch. I had to remind a veno with me to move her *** when that happens more, cause I caught a BM on her (and killed it) because she was rebuffing and etc.

But yea I was trying to say that even at bare minimum, it's still profitable. I do think people will start to lean away from it (or at least stop using charms and apoth) if Raps bottom out from 250k to like 100-150k - because unless you perform well you're losing money.

I had 4 people in my team rage quit last night. One of them because they dc'd when we were entering and didn't want to NW for a different nation. We had 4 people total dc right as we entered. Two got into the same nation as us anyways, one got in the second place nation but had no squad, and one got in the third place nation but rage quit over the dcing and not being with their friends.

I use event gold for my charms so NW is a good way to turn event gold into real coin. I went through 2 1/2 charms last night (didn't equip one for last 20 minutes, lol), prolly 300-500k in pots and genie chi. So its always profitable, just amount of profit kind of depends on luck and the rest of your nation almost as much as your own performance.

One reason I had so much contribution last night is when you have 6-10 endgame chars (mostly archers and psychics it seems) camping spawn point and basically setting up a zhenning point it becomes even more difficult to break into them once your 15 second immunity wears off. So as soon as I respawn I magic marrow and run at them to start aoeing and can get 2-5 aoes in. Thats enough to zerk once or twice and hopefully charm jump or kill. Doing anywhere from 2-8k per zerk on 4 people per attack means I'm pulling in decent damage ouput. I then chain it with an IG or an AD and have 20 seconds of aoeing. Its not enough to break their lines but 1 person DDing on 6 people with aoes is alot more points than 6 people spam killing and sharing the kill of 1 person and sometimes it allows others to escape.

With all the Q.q about spawn killing I feel bad enough I'll let people run away if they don't just stand at spawn point but if I'm escorting the flag or killing someone near your spawn and you show up and start attacking me or buffing right next to me, I'm gonna kill ya.

Saethos - Raging Tide

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No No No, I mean they don't even move or try and CC to get away from the spawn killers. Like I watched clerics and other classes just stand there after respawn, buff, and once the immunity wears off - die. Not even moved one inch. I had to remind a veno with me to move her *** when that happens more, cause I caught a BM on her (and killed it) because she was rebuffing and etc.

But yea I was trying to say that even at bare minimum, it's still profitable. I do think people will start to lean away from it (or at least stop using charms and apoth) if Raps bottom out from 250k to like 100-150k - because unless you perform well you're losing money.

Damn, your raps are still at 250K? Prices here have already dropped to 120k per rapture, and that's a generous buyer. Fortunate for the people that have heads on their shoulders though most of the people on raging tide server are trash. Not to brag or anything, but I'm one of the biggest returners on my server. In the winning nation, if I do bad, I get about 175 tokens. And if I do really well, I can break 250. I average about 200-225 in a winning nation.

I find the best thing I can do is attract attention to myself and let people hit me. No, make people hit me. I run around, smacking the threats, reeling in the sins away from their targets, blade hurling far away clusters, roaring, HFing, You know, all the BM things. Even if I never get a single kill (actually, I rarely get a kill at all) I attract so much attention towards me. So much so that my veno friend will almost always make sure I'm charmed because as long as I stay alive, the focus is on me. With her passing me sparks, my sin partner running around taking out single targets, my psy abusing the HA classes, and our seeker steamrolling one by one, they still want to target me.

This is because I tend to take my job as crowd control serious. If you aren't attacking me, you'll be dead soon. Not even by my hands, I'll just beat you into submission and then some random will come along and get the kill. Either way, you're out one respawn, and I'm not. I know a lot of BMs that have fashion on auto-change to stop from collecting too much attention. I keep trying to tell them not to, but they won't stop. I want people to know who I am, I always wear the same look to NW (other than the time I grew a goatee, but still have it so I guess it counts) Because that way, I don't need to keep attracting attention. I'm already a listed threat.

I guess the best I can say is I make myself a threat, not for my power, as I actually don't have too too much DD power (I absolutely cannot kill an equal geared barb, seeker, or BM and some wizzies have even tanked my sorry ****) but instead because if you don't eliminate me, I AM responsible for what happens to you. And the enemy remembers it.

Best part is because of the support I have, my squad always working together so dang well, it's very hard to kill me. Of course then there's the laughable sins that attack random *** people that I just Reel In and stun (is it just me or is Aeolian more than 50% on sins?) just for the laughs. This annoys them, they attack me, I laugh and tank them. Then my seeker oneshots them. All in all it's a jolly good time for all of us. I annoy the enemy, they assault me in all out fire. This leaves my support open to aid me, they do so. The enemies are attacking me, the DDs I have take them out one by one.

In fact, this has worked so well that sometimes, I'll be right near the flag carrier that is nobody from my squad, the enemy will see me, and go after me in a mass number. Typically I just try to hold them. If they are hitting me, they aren't going after the flag carrier. This does however get me killed, but I only need to do it twice!

Full roster of my team includes me, Nirv t3 seeker, t3 LA veno, DPH based sin, r8/partial t3 psy, and a second BM whom is rank 9 weapon and t3 armor, still working on his r9 armors.

Sylvae - Sanctuary

The price drops is why I've been advising to go ranged class if building to end game gear, if you currently have it then soaking damage is viable. I mentioned half a year with current price drop for our server before tokens fall into the 50-100k range consistently, still see that happening. Even with alts and cube/ring/tome coming around in the future. But those plateaus will not last long.

Glad Saku mentioned the events tab, never looked at that thing even after they introduced it, so lots of saved up gold to use from there. Still been focusing on maximizing contribution while minimizing damage received. Currently can get around 8K contri with only 200-250K charm used up most of the time. Which makes for a very good profit even compared to high enders, especially with the old gear my BM is running around in.

That's likely something BMs should focus on from time to time in a boring battle as well. If they get high in contri, try not getting beat up and still earn. Chances are they'll have to do the switch-over at some point; might as well get the practice in before their profit takes the dive.

Zarkin_Baxil - Raging Tide

Saethos is one of the best BMs on RT because I quit >.> b:chuckle Just kidding bro, happy AOEing.

Saethos - Raging Tide

Zarkin_Baxil - Raging Tide wrote: »

Saethos is one of the best BMs on RT because I quit >.> b:chuckle Just kidding bro, happy AOEing.

You shall be missed, Zarkin! I'll take your place as the best sage BM on rt!

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Last NW, the first 5 battles i was against a base locking squad i think. There is no strategy against this.

I was being hit for 15~40k each hit from each attacker. There really is no fun in being one shot. Near the end the teams were more balanced and i got points, but the way we get hit if gear is not stashed up on def levels is insane.

I still got 60 tokens out of it, but the fun is being taken out until i reach that stage with my own gear. I truly feel sorry for lower lvls or worse geared people than me.

The above forced me to use claws more often to get back chi to stun. I had to rely on my range skills to even have a chance of closing down the distance. The sad thing is, it's not an issue about skills, because a wizzy hitting non crit 22k in mag marrow with def charm, really makes me wonder how weak i am or how strong the wizzy is. I can just hope i don't run into those people again.

Not all upgraded people are like that . Lots of r9 archers floating around with low hp. Easy to kill them.

CapnK - Sanctuary

Oh man this was so hilarious I wish I had recorded it. I'm running the flag and getting close to the capture point. There is one cleric standing directly in my way. First of all the cleric is stupid because he doesn't sleep me and wait for more help to come; he tries to Tempest me instead.

So I Tiger Leap forward, then Reckless Rush onto him to use him as a stepping stone, then Tiger Leap forward again to get the score. b:victory

Morridune - Raging Tide

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

You shall be missed, Zarkin! I'll take your place as the best sage BM on rt!

we'll see

Ladyblondeh - Raging Tide

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

You shall be missed, Zarkin! I'll take your place as the best sage BM on rt!

Come 1V1 i wanna see the new best bm lol to this date i havnt found more than a handfull of good bms in rt.. and by good i mean just good maybe like 2-3 great ones if even that.

Saethos - Raging Tide

Ladyblondeh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Come 1V1 i wanna see the new best bm lol to this date i havnt found more than a handfull of good bms in rt.. and by good i mean just good maybe like 2-3 great ones if even that.

That's because you need to be a good one to find good ones.

Even the playing field on same gear level and we can fight, but let's face it, your arrogance towards me comes from "lol i haz gear he dun't". I'm not being mean, I'm being legit, with the r9t3 it doesn't matter what I do the defense is greater than my rank 8 recast, and you could be AFK, but the gear difference is too high...

I taught BKXX how to PvP and he never won when we were equals, beat him then you can talk.

Let's stay on topic now, shall we?

Jaabg - Sanctuary

I will politely draw your attention to the RT subforums for all your pking logistical needs and fanfare. This topic is about NW strategies. If you pk the above said players and kill them in NW, by all means share how you did it in that Nation war, otherwise do use RT subforums for friendly "banter".

On topic, i was with a base locking crew. We did great, but those fights were no fun. 2nd flag is captured at 22 minutes left in battle. Battle only ends at 4 minutes left, after people are tired of pking the rest. Their objective is not to the win the land, but to keep the land occupied and to spawn kill. Had this same crew more lands to capture, more fights to take part in, my score of 7k could easily have been 10~12k. My usual score is 7~9k.

I hold the firm belief, spawn killing and holding the map like that is not my style. For the benefit of the OP people, they are using the reward system in their favour. This is not "illegal" just not something i would do. To get points in these kinds of battle i had to run after people who just lost their protection from spawn and kill them with claws, because the aoe, range classes were picking them off easily.

In the same spirit, i had a great fight with a cleric, i got 555 points that battle, the cleric even though lost the land, got 1.5k. Boosted the score to 4.5k total contributions, but only got 30 tokens because frost was base locked for the whole of nation war practically.

I hope the bigger maps come soon, but with bigger maps means, fights are more fragmented, and people with charger orbs will win 1 vs 10 easily, if they guess right. But i prefer the more land scenario because the chance of fun being ruined is smaller.

Saethos - Raging Tide

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

I will politely draw your attention to the RT subforums for all your pking logistical needs and fanfare. This topic is about NW strategies. If you pk the above said players and kill them in NW, by all means share how you did it in that Nation war, otherwise do use RT subforums for friendly "banter".

On topic, i was with a base locking crew. We did great, but those fights were no fun. 2nd flag is captured at 22 minutes left in battle. Battle only ends at 4 minutes left, after people are tired of pking the rest. Their objective is not to the win the land, but to keep the land occupied and to spawn kill. Had this same crew more lands to capture, more fights to take part in, my score of 7k could easily have been 10~12k. My usual score is 7~9k.

I hold the firm belief, spawn killing and holding the map like that is not my style. For the benefit of the OP people, they are using the reward system in their favour. This is not "illegal" just not something i would do. To get points in these kinds of battle i had to run after people who just lost their protection from spawn and kill them with claws, because the aoe, range classes were picking them off easily.

In the same spirit, i had a great fight with a cleric, i got 555 points that battle, the cleric even though lost the land, got 1.5k. Boosted the score to 4.5k total contributions, but only got 30 tokens because frost was base locked for the whole of nation war practically.

I hope the bigger maps come soon, but with bigger maps means, fights are more fragmented, and people with charger orbs will win 1 vs 10 easily, if they guess right. But i prefer the more land scenario because the chance of fun being ruined is smaller.

I like the idea of more territories because here on rt at least, if you get in just a minute late or spend too much time deciding where to go, you get locked out becayse every bordering battle has a whole 20 people already...and you miss the first battle, which is often a make or break battle.

The main problem I have with NW would be how many people stand around with their thumbs up their bums. i was in a 20v20 and I say only 3 people do anything, including myself, while the others stood there and...did nothing. I don't really know why somoene would enter a war and do nothing other than free AFK contribution, but it was pathetic seeing the numbers as 20v20 and only 3 doing something, and the other 20 all clustered around the flag at all times. A BM sin and veno can only do so much, especially with the fact that quite a few were r9t3 casters with their damn purify...

I honestly think there should be a way to get AFK people booted from NW...This would make it so that others could actually get in the war to actually get things. That's still a big problem here on rt are people just AFK being damage posts. This is bad for all the nations...

And it usually leads to a baselock scenario when there are enough of them...

I have decided when I am in an NW if within the first half hour I see nothing but morons doing nothing and not caring about the nation at all, I leave. Friday I left after only 30 minutes and still managed to get 35 tokens...in a losing nation...So from now on I won't deal with nations that just don't care (usually flame on my server for some reason).

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Saethos: I agree with the strategy, i leave after 40~50 minutes. Most of the points one gets is at the first 1~3 battles and the 1~3 near the end. Rest of the fights are usually 20 vs 0 land grabs. Last time dark had 2x as many points as frost. If i was in frost i would have left, because there is no way frost could come back from that set back. People with same contribution as me, only got 40~50 tokens, where i got 140. Had they left early, they would have had 25~35 tokens, but would have saved 1~1.5 hours of their time, repairs, charms.

I pointed it out in the start, people actually multi client, some do more than 2 clients. It servers a two fold purpose. The weak alts are there to weaken the opposing nations. The OP alts are there to get more tokens for the person. I am thinking of making a psy, put it in white voodo, and just let it hang around in fights while taking damage. Having 2 clients is fine, but people abuse it. Most often you can get more points on a single character than 2 characters.

A map increase will be a good thing against base locking, but most good fights will be happening around the base. Sometimes there is a fragmented map on sanctuary, after an hour or so, there is a 3 way tie, lots of small battles everywhere. They make it hard to catch the flag carrier. Even with r9 3rd casts around, no one catch me on my bm if i time my will of bod right.

That being said, in a 20 vs 20, i waited at the flag for 4 minutes, before anyone decided to show up to dig the flag b:shutup. The flag was at west, this happens often. Some fights people just don't care about the flag.

Saethos - Raging Tide

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Saethos: I agree with the strategy, i leave after 40~50 minutes. Most of the points one gets is at the first 1~3 battles and the 1~3 near the end. Rest of the fights are usually 20 vs 0 land grabs. Last time dark had 2x as many points as frost. If i was in frost i would have left, because there is no way frost could come back from that set back. People with same contribution as me, only got 40~50 tokens, where i got 140. Had they left early, they would have had 25~35 tokens, but would have saved 1~1.5 hours of their time, repairs, charms.

I pointed it out in the start, people actually multi client, some do more than 2 clients. It servers a two fold purpose. The weak alts are there to weaken the opposing nations. The OP alts are there to get more tokens for the person. I am thinking of making a psy, put it in white voodo, and just let it hang around in fights while taking damage. Having 2 clients is fine, but people abuse it. Most often you can get more points on a single character than 2 characters.

A map increase will be a good thing against base locking, but most good fights will be happening around the base. Sometimes there is a fragmented map on sanctuary, after an hour or so, there is a 3 way tie, lots of small battles everywhere. They make it hard to catch the flag carrier. Even with r9 3rd casts around, no one catch me on my bm if i time my will of bod right.

That being said, in a 20 vs 20, i waited at the flag for 4 minutes, before anyone decided to show up to dig the flag b:shutup. The flag was at west, this happens often. Some fights people just don't care about the flag.

My personal favorite is when you are scouting the middle and don't see the flag. You let your battle know it's not mid, so you run east or west. It's not there so you know it's on the other side and announce it. In rushing to the other side you get caught in the middle in combat, fight your way out, and 5 minutes later realize nobody has the flag yet and run to where it is, pick it up and turn it in...Those ones make me thankful both sides have no cares for winning, which makes little sense due to the increase in points if you win...

Sylvae - Sanctuary

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

My personal favorite is when you are scouting the middle and don't see the flag. You let your battle know it's not mid, so you run east or west. It's not there so you know it's on the other side and announce it. In rushing to the other side you get caught in the middle in combat, fight your way out, and 5 minutes later realize nobody has the flag yet and run to where it is, pick it up and turn it in...Those ones make me thankful both sides have no cares for winning, which makes little sense due to the increase in points if you win...

Their looking to increase their contri, and hoping someone isn't as selfish as them to actually do the winning part. Happened last NW for me, scored 13 or 14 of the 18 points we had at end, and there were plenty who were there who could have carried. Or just picked it up for the extra point since it was 18 - 0. Ended up losing alot of charm before got sent back, and the battle was lost.

The map increase doesn't sound like it'll do jack. As is, the only thing preventing baselocks alot of time is them needing another territory to attack if there are 1 or 2 other teams doing it as well. Increasing to 6 just let's them bounce back and forth even easier; prolonging the dang baselock.

Smarter thing would be increase the amount of time a territory cannot be attacked next to a base, when that base takes it. Increase it from 3 to 5 or 6 mins, and it forces the base lockers away when the base finally breaks out. Do that and add a queue that allows the more powerful people to get preference during a lock, and problem actually solved. While the base lock teams will just draw out the battle they are in, it gives time to cut off their support, take more territory, and funnel more players out before the next attack. If not enough time, increase it to 10 mins.

Saethos - Raging Tide

Another successful NW. This thread has helped me a lot, and so far the biggest returning factor for me has been absorbing damage. I was in a few wars this time where I managed to get a lot of personal kills, and a few where I got 1 or 2 kills but took a ton of damage. The wars where I had a lot of personal kills got me a much lower point return than the sponging of damage. I ended up with almost but not quite 15k contribution, got a total of 203 tokens.

This time my squad was 2 sins, one with t2 Nirv farming badges for t3, he hasn't been 100 long and I am pleased with his progress, but he kept dying a lot so it wasn't very common for him to be with us for long. A 102 t3 nirv archer, a t3 veno, and of course, myself.

Highlights of this NW, after a successful flag turn in, most of their DD power was focused on me. I happened to have unleashed a fresh blade tornado to ensure my crossing due to it being an anti stun, so I had about 250 chi. I used reckless rush on the middle target and then used roar, quickly shouted to the veno in team speak to pass me a spark, so I had 3 sparks, used HF and tangling mire, she got killed my an archer, but all the people in range shortly died to me and my sin partner. Our archer took out everyone out of range. The 4 of us managed to annihilate the enemy right then and there, and make it in time for the flag to spawn. We got lucky as we were running to mid and that's where the flag was. I got it again being the designated tank of the squad, and then I turned in for the win.

Then there was when our nation was base locked, we decided to carve up the opposing nation and cut off their support since we couldn't help the battles neighboring the base. It was a 5v7 at first, which is no big deal since we had 2 sins and a BM for great crowd control. But they quickly got backup. Unlucky for us a barb had grabbed the flag and we were struggling a little to take him down. But a timed sage subsea and sage HF on him and he ended up falling after much struggling. We had hoped the war to end by now but it quickly turned into a 20v5. We got lucky and the flag spawned where we were,took out the 3 people guarding it, and I grabbed it. It was a struggle turning it in, I am very thankful I had that veno to pass me chi. Demon lending hand as well, so sometimes I get 2 sparks. I had to Diamond Sutra and everything just to live, but once I finally refill on chi for a Blade Tornado, I score when I use it in tandem with a charger orb. However, then the enemy gets the flag again. But we get backup just in time and they end the barbs life quickly, making for a solid victory. 5v20 held off for a good 10 minutes. Feels good.

Kind of a quick lol for a highlight...2 r9t3 aps sins appear on me. Remember that veno I mentioned? Yeah, demon bramble. They apsed themselves to death. That was cute.

The basic plan we have is to make me a target. We do this by having me annoy the **** out of the enemy with my stuns, seals, slows, etc. The veno keeps me chi'd up, the sin makes sure no other sins are eyeing me from stealth (he's 104, so he can see most others on rt), I crowd control the biggest groups, and when my archer is in trouble, I make sure I protect her. The idea is to annoy the enemy, make them want me dead. Then of course here comes a sage subsea, demon parasitic nova, sage Earthen rift, a second sin taking out the weaker targets, and then an archer belting hard crits left and right.

And then they get the hint to stop me from CCing them. That's when I use my genie to make sure I can survive until my support comes. I do have Badge of Courage but tend not to use it unless I'm trying to run to kill/protect the flag carrier. Instead, since it's a high dex genie, I use windshiled due to the fact I can use it a lot and it reduces a lot of damage I take. As soon as an opening comes, here comes the anti stun. Now I just have to hope not to get silenced for too long. But I usually have time to trigger a roar and begin AoEing. But despite all this, it may sound like I'm talking myself up, however in the end my personal kills are quite low. I almost never get the real kills. When I do it was a lucky crit. To put it simply, in NW I am nothing without my DDs.

I try to tell other BMs all the time, taking out single targets can be good at times but that's the sins job. The BM is meant to crowd control, not to DD. And to do this you need to stay alive. Also, I tend to see some BMs P.Marrowing in NW...sure, I'm the only one around them at the time, but it's still not a good idea...I never P.Marrow. I either remain un-marrowed or use magic marrow, depending on what I know I'm against (usually have magic marrow on at the beginning)

So I'm lead to think that taking damage is way more important as a BM in NW than dealing much damage at all. I don't get near as many points when I get kills as when I sponge damage.

Maybe I should gear my barb with t3 nirv instead of his t2...hehehe...

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

So I'm lead to think that taking damage is way more important as a BM in NW than dealing much damage at all. I don't get near as many points when I get kills as when I sponge damage.

Maybe I should gear my barb with t3 nirv instead of his t2...hehehe...

yes and no, BM by default are not the best aoe big hitters until you get top end game weapon at +12. Until that point it is best to absorb damage. Casters with 3rd stage vana, or r9 3rd cast weapon will gain their points mainly from dd.

I am not sure of the exact break down number, but assume it is 1.5xdamage taken, and 1xdamage dealt.

My bm deals 2~6k damage - i can get 2~6k per hit. Caster hit 8~40k per hit. I take let's say 20k damage. 20kx1.5 = 30k, caster deal out that much. That is why they get more contribution on damage dealt compared to us bm. Once your axes are dervish, +12 with garnets and gear to back it up, you'll be gaining a whole lot more points from damage dealt and taken. Until that point, damage taken = best option.

I would recommend psy, white voodo to take up damage as an alt in nw, if going 3rd cast vana. With decent refines, put a charm on, and use adv auto recovery stone. Just leave it afk near the middle and move it from battle to battle when you have time. I don't touch psys in nw if my smack hardly moves their hp.

Glad you are having fun in nation war . Sadly on sanctuary, one nation always gets shafted. I would hate to be in that nation consistently.

Saethos - Raging Tide

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Glad you are having fun in nation war . Sadly on sanctuary, one nation always gets shafted. I would hate to be in that nation consistently.

It's the same here. On raging tide, if you are given Flame nation, prepare to be shafted...Idk, it's always flame. It seems it doesn't matter who is in flame it's a promise to get shafted...

Jaabg - Sanctuary

I'll revive this a bit. Not a strategy per-se, token use. Being the noob i am, i decided to make summerwind tokens. I noticed canny price > rap price in sanc. People sell both canny and raps.

Summerwind token = canny (1200)+raps (300)

1 rap = 1 token

5 canny = 1 token

1200/5 = 240 tokens

300 raps = 300 tokens

The funny part is, that i want to make summerwind tokens for friends. I know rap cost > canny cost in the summerwind making. I use my NW tokens to make raps, and i buy the canny. That means my summerwind cost is canny cost+3m, which comes out to 34~39m per summerwind token.

9x35m = 315m is a far better deal for me compared to 9x72m ~ 650m.

In the end i am not making any money, i am just utilising my resources, but i can tell you 315m is much easier on the pocket. The extra money can buy 10 of 10* orbs. That means you can refine 3 pieces to +10 from +7, or 5 pieces from +8 to +10. Or you can try 5 times to get +11 from +9 to +10.

Also i got demon bell, it allows for great trolling. I was being attacked by a barb and veno. I bell when i could, magic marrow otherwise. Purged the barb after 18573498th hit, and killed veno. I would recommend using bell as a defensive tool in nw.

One time a sin poped out on me, bell+phy marrow. Poor soul had no chance, even though s/he had r9+6 daggers in aps gear.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also i got demon bell, it allows for great trolling. I was being attacked by a barb and veno. I bell when i could, magic marrow otherwise. Purged the barb after 18573498th hit, and killed veno. I would recommend using bell as a defensive tool in nw.

One time a sin poped out on me, bell+phy marrow. Poor soul had no chance, even though s/he had r9+6 daggers in aps gear.

Careful with spamming demon bell. It's a great chance for you to be stun-ganked. Takes too long to cast. It's kinda nice to hit every now and then on your party for a bit, especially a flag runner if you guys are unmolested at the time.

One of my big pushes on play style is always be perceived as a threat. Belling yourself is really just creating opportunity (you have to stop and cast) to be hit, and isn't really being a threat. Ideally do it in low pressure situations.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Careful with spamming demon bell. It's a great chance for you to be stun-ganked. Takes too long to cast. It's kinda nice to hit every now and then on your party for a bit, especially a flag runner if you guys are unmolested at the time.

One of my big pushes on play style is always be perceived as a threat. Belling yourself is really just creating opportunity (you have to stop and cast) to be hit, and isn't really being a threat. Ideally do it in low pressure situations.

It happens when i am waiting for a flag to spawn, getting back my chi. I am usually alone, because 18 people choose to pk in the middle. A sin usually comes out of stealth around this time to do their business. Sometimes 2~5 people show up, naturally, before they enter fighting range i bell, see if a marrow is appropriate, and get my distances right and have fun.

During engagements,i hope for drake sweep (not even sure if it works in pvp) and genie. I don't have time to be belling. I do it in tw at times every 15~20 seconds, if there are not many people around the cata barb.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

It happens when i am waiting for a flag to spawn, getting back my chi. I am usually alone, because 18 people choose to pk in the middle. A sin usually comes out of stealth around this time to do their business. Sometimes 2~5 people show up, naturally, before they enter fighting range i bell, see if a marrow is appropriate, and get my distances right and have fun.

During engagements,i hope for drake sweep (not even sure if it works in pvp) and genie. I don't have time to be belling. I do it in tw at times every 15~20 seconds, if there are not many people around the cata barb.

Yea bell+marrow switching is the typical for gaining chi, just using the pdef bonus defensively is something you want to be careful with. If the sin is bad at locking it's easy, but if you bell right when they show up you're setting yourself up to get stun ganked (unless you're antistunned).

Concept and in practice, if you keep the pressure on they'll panic and try to switch to playing defensively, providing you with better opportunity. The pdef increase really helps vs larger groups, but at the same time that is more people that can utilize said opportunity you create. Double edged sword so to speak. I just think of it as something that in rare circumstances is awesome, but not something to keep in the forefront of my mind to do a lot.

As you related, it works well if you have a moment before rushing a base, digging a flag, holding a cat, or taking off to somewhere. At the same time thats a second or two you could be utilizing to move, hit another skill, etc. Kinda depends on your function at the time. I'll run around purged (course, I can survive it...usually) as opposed to taking a second to re-bell, and I've had plenty of times where I have taken that second to re-bell and regretted it.

A lot of people talk about their pdef and mdef ratings with Bell bonus and Mag Marrow up, but I rarely see it in effect in TW or NW (let alone people with mag marrow up...not that I don't forget on and off). Most of the time it comes from someone chi gaining, or buffing a catabarb or flag puller.

Lately I've been a bit too "omggetinthebase" to really wait for my squads DDs to get up for bell bonus buff, but I used to do that with a different squad setup in TW. In decent base control situations, Ill shoot over to someone in my squad to bell bonus them while I'm building chi (our squads spread out...cause you're supposed to, so I rarely get more than 1-2 people with the bonus).

I've also taken to Drake Sweeping people in the last few weeks on random idiots who go behind the lines while I'm building chi and everything is in CD. Yanno, I can't tell if it's working in PvP (TW anyways) for chi bonus either. Ill watch closer this weekend or record it to find out. Being a squad lead on a team that gets thrown all over the place kinda limits my attention span.

However if you're having Chi issues, what genie are you using?

Saethos - Raging Tide

While we're on the topic of Bell, I'll pitch in a few things. Now, the exact things Maelael is talking about is why I preach sage bell over demon bell...Seen as how the bell bonus doesn't stack with tidal wafers or shining pills, however, I'll bear with the demons here, since us sage BMs are common as a block of lead in a child daycare and demon BMs are as rare as snowflake in alaska.

having been demon, I was thrilled when I got my demon Bell. It was the BEST. THING. EVER. However, I was in a more PvE situation than a PvP situation. When I finally got myself into PvP, which did take me some time to do (PvE server after all) I found that I really didn't use demon bell all that much unless I knew a sin was going to come after me. If I saw a sin stealth I'd instantly get near who I could and bell, but often times they didn't even go after us. I base my playstyle off of what a lot of Maelael advises, including the being a threat part. I found that I would rather be spending time smashing my enemies faces in with crowd controls than i would helping my allies from a threat that I could just then punish with said crowd controls.

When it came down to it I was using the bonus to protect my AA classes, but found that against higher geared physicals, it didn't really make a very large difference on most of my AA allies. Nowadays I just buddhas guard if I can't CC them...shame for that 10 minute cooldown. But the bottom line was that if I could CC the physicals long enough, I didn't need the defense and neither did my allies. This is also where I will get sage biased, but I firmly believe sage marrows to be better. At maximum you can only reduce physical damage by 90% based off your P.Def value alone, the rest is defense levels. Sitting in my sage bell with cleric buffs and my phys marrow, I achieve that without needed the 75% bell bonus. This comes in handy in a 1v1.

I think I might make a sage vs demon thread of my own later to expand more on this. When it comes down to it, while demon bell is nice, it leaves you "wasting" time, though it can be pretty good to do.

And about the chi issues...I so wish I had demon Drake Sweep vs my sage tiger maw, but you win some, you lose some.

P.S. Saying it out loud at this point. Maelael is one of my biggest inspirations, and with watching his posts (creeper alert) I've been able to better my playstyle in too many ways. Take his advice heavy.

Sylvae - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I've also taken to Drake Sweeping people in the last few weeks on random idiots who go behind the lines while I'm building chi and everything is in CD. Yanno, I can't tell if it's working in PvP (TW anyways) for chi bonus either. Ill watch closer this weekend or record it to find out. Being a squad lead on a team that gets thrown all over the place kinda limits my attention span.

However if you're having Chi issues, what genie are you using?

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Demon Drake's Sweep is actually worse than advertised. I tried it out on seaspray thieves, around 10+ each time. I would demon drake sweep 3 times, and I'd get around 1 every 30+ hits, sometimes 2. This was pretty consistent, and only rarely would I get a nice 90 chi when doing it. It acts more like a 20% chance to trigger, followed by a 20% chance to proc; making it out to roughly 4% chance for the 30 chi. Not sure if other people have had more luck, but this was a disappointment to what I thought it would give.

It's an old issue that we wish PWI would revisit and fix to actually work as it reads. But while nice, Demon Drake Sweep ceased to be viewed as a viable chi builder in 2009 due to the rarity of getting chi even while doing PvE AoE runs.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

It's an old issue that we wish PWI would revisit and fix to actually work as it reads. But while nice, Demon Drake Sweep ceased to be viewed as a viable chi builder in 2009 due to the rarity of getting chi even while doing PvE AoE runs.

Works great for me when it fires in PvE. I use it a lot for that reason, and I know it works. I wanna say its 20% chance, but at times it seems every other drake sweep.

I depend on it in AoE situations and some single target axe spam stuff, and I watch my chi jump when it fires. But Im way more distracted in TW and NW, I haven't seen it do its jump yet there.

Gah Saethos...thank you for not stalking me?

Given I work with other Sage BMs that are amazing, I feel either culti is fine. Both have thier bonuses over each other. I like my quicker hitting axe spam, greater crits, longer stun, reduce CD on Roar, heavier slow with fissure, and I like the range on drake ray. HF is a given. But Sage has its merits as well. I don't think either are a bad idea nowadays due to NW being the money maker. At this point its more about your style and how you push yourself and utilize those skills in PvP, not if you can pull off a specific APS combo.

Saethos - Raging Tide

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Gah Saethos...thank you for not stalking me?

Given I work with other Sage BMs that are amazing, I feel either culti is fine. Both have thier bonuses over each other. I like my quicker hitting axe spam, greater crits, longer stun, reduce CD on Roar, heavier slow with fissure, and I like the range on drake ray. HF is a given. But Sage has its merits as well. I don't think either are a bad idea nowadays due to NW being the money maker. At this point its more about your style and how you push yourself and utilize those skills in PvP, not if you can pull off a specific APS combo.

*rolls a toon on HT, stalks*

I also view them as even, and I'd give up my sage fissure for demon fissure sooner than a heartbeat. Sage is basically useless unless you have a wizard with you, which I never do. I constantly get asked by PvP new BMs that see me in action if they should convert to sage and I never know what to say, so I just tell them to give demon a try, sometimes it's better for the individual.

I'd also trade sage roar for demon roar...

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

*rolls a toon on HT, stalks*

I also view them as even, and I'd give up my sage fissure for demon fissure sooner than a heartbeat. Sage is basically useless unless you have a wizard with you, which I never do. I constantly get asked by PvP new BMs that see me in action if they should convert to sage and I never know what to say, so I just tell them to give demon a try, sometimes it's better for the individual.

I'd also trade sage roar for demon roar...

If I remember correctly, although I could be wrong, I thought someone in my faction said the Fire Debuff from Fissure does not stack with the genie skill Spark.

Pro's of Sage:
Your party loves the greater Bell Pdef (When I group with a sage BM they get all moody at me and my nervous belling habit)
Higher Fist DPH.
Ocean's Edge Freeze (and why i see the good sage BMs use the **** outta it)
Highland Cleave Crit Chance % - Godly when it works

Axe baseline damage is weird debate. I'd rather have the 1% crit...but when it comes down to it - its 1%. But, because axe spam is faster with Demon, and you're hoping to crit, zerk, or zerkcrit - it kinda counts as more short term burst damage...but also kinda works out the same at the same time. But Im a crit (bleep). Id love to see how often I could get highland cleave to fire in some situations (although Sage or Demon, I swear by fissure in AoE opportunities due to the slow).

The CD on Fan vs the Range on Fan is also a debate. Most of us are kinda in close and using fan for single target mostly...but theres a rare occasion Ill use fan as an aoe and that range is nice.

Kinda about it although Id be curious how well tiger maw works for gaining chi.

Mag Marrow:
At high levels of Pdef (like were talking ultra rich people pdef rings), Mag Marrow aint bad. The difference in pdef between the two actually isn't a whole lot - like 1k-2kish.

On my build, with cleric buffs pdef/mdef
Sage: 16.3 / 22.6
Demon: 17.5 / 20.7

Now if I switch to a R9r ring and a skycover at +12 http://pwcalc.com/5f4facb664f0936b
Sage: 25.3 / 27.5
Demon: 27.2 / 25.1

Now I wish I saved the damn pdef damage calculator spreadsheet, but diminishing returns start after 10-12k, and become nearly pointless to try for increases less than 2k+ past 30-32k. So there is a noticeable reduce in damage in the upper teens to 20s for sure, but it stops being as significant as you approach 30k. I really should have saved that spreadsheet - I may have to make it again since this is the third time since saturday this came up.

Saethos - Raging Tide

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If I remember correctly, although I could be wrong, I thought someone in my faction said the Fire Debuff from Fissure does not stack with the genie skill Spark.

Pro's of Sage:
Your party loves the greater Bell Pdef (When I group with a sage BM they get all moody at me and my nervous belling habit)
Higher Fist DPH.
Ocean's Edge Freeze (and why i see the good sage BMs use the **** outta it)
Highland Cleave Crit Chance % - Godly when it works

Axe baseline damage is weird debate. I'd rather have the 1% crit...but when it comes down to it - its 1%. But, because axe spam is faster with Demon, and you're hoping to crit, zerk, or zerkcrit - it kinda counts as more short term burst damage...but also kinda works out the same at the same time. But Im a crit (bleep). Id love to see how often I could get highland cleave to fire in some situations (although Sage or Demon, I swear by fissure in AoE opportunities due to the slow).

The CD on Fan vs the Range on Fan is also a debate. Most of us are kinda in close and using fan for single target mostly...but theres a rare occasion Ill use fan as an aoe and that range is nice.

Kinda about it although Id be curious how well tiger maw works for gaining chi.

Mag Marrow:
At high levels of Pdef (like were talking ultra rich people pdef rings), Mag Marrow aint bad. The difference in pdef between the two actually isn't a whole lot - like 1k-2kish.

On my build, with cleric buffs pdef/mdef
Sage: 16.3 / 22.6
Demon: 17.5 / 20.7

Now if I switch to a R9r ring and a skycover at +12 http://pwcalc.com/5f4facb664f0936b
Sage: 25.3 / 27.5
Demon: 27.2 / 25.1

Now I wish I saved the damn pdef damage calculator spreadsheet, but diminishing returns start after 10-12k, and become nearly pointless to try for increases less than 2k+ past 30-32k. So there is a noticeable reduce in damage in the upper teens to 20s for sure, but it stops being as significant as you approach 30k. I really should have saved that spreadsheet - I may have to make it again since this is the third time since saturday this came up.

Sage Tiger Maw is ok at best, but the real problem is that there is no damage to it. It says it's a 25% chance but feels more like 1 in 3 tries, but you don't find yourself using it nearly as much as you would with demon Drake Sweep. It's not a real deciding factor, since the only time you will have a true moment to use tiger maw is in a one on one, which almost never happens in TW and NW, and if it does you rush through it to get to supporting your people. It makes building chi with axes easier in PvE, but even then it's ok at best. Most BMs have claws or fists for that, rendering the PvE argument useless, and axes in an AoE situation, you won't stop to use tiger maw, and demon Drake Sweep is very good for chi in such a situation. So, in PvP tiger maw could shine above Drake Sweep, but I rarely find myself using it since I want to avoid one on one and support my team.

Sage Highland is the reason I lowered my dex a bit, since I won't be needing much crit when this pans out. Endgame gear I should have roughly 30% crit, 50% with highland, which is pretty fierce. And i can't lie, I see demon highland as a joke since it's basically the same as demon Cyclone Heel but with axes, and let's be honest, axes are meant to be skill spammed. As far as fissure over Highland, it depends on my situation. I've been known to use highland, get a crit proc, and then raise all hell with crits flying everywhere and everywhen, but in most situations I find myself using fissure.

In terms of demon axe mastery vs sage, I think the two are perfect. If you go demon you are aiming at quicker combos, more likely to land a crit given the same time as a sage has to attack, however the sage can pinch in less attacks, therefor relies a lot more on sheer luck to crit even if you added that one percent. The masteries were perfectly fit into the intended skillset of the sage vs the demon blademaster, so the reason it's an odd debate is because you're talking about 2 completely different ways of playing the class but getting the same job done.

And on sage fissure, I'm not 100% certain about it over writing genie spark, I had thought it was Undine Strike that it was over writing...I'll have to check this tomorrow after work. But either way, the skill in sage is just so...Meh. It's like sage vs demon highland is to sage vs demon fissure. I see it as a trade off.

Sage BMs not spamming Ocean's Edge are...Let's not talk about them. That skill is ALWAYS on my cooldowns.

When I group with a demon BM I don't get very upset about their demon bell spam. Instead, I spam mine directly after theirs for the biggest BM defense boost we can make (165%) and it works rater well. I only get moody when I had a tidal wafer or shining pill on me. Heh.

When it comes to NW (trying to stay on topic) demon BMs seem to strike me as more of a team player than sages. Since sage has the freezing Ocean's Edge, we can slow down the flag carrier a lot even if it fails. However, demon Ocean's Edge is the same slow debuff, so in the event that it fails, demon fissure would have been by far a better choice since it is also an AoE slow. This is the main reason I have whirlwind on my genie, so there are ways to deal with it, but I'd still rather be using fissure, then use Ocean's Edge and see if it procs.

Arguably there's bolt of tyreseus, the 79 fist skill, but you'd never see me using it even if I could use fists/claws. It costs a spark that you are better doing other things with. We consume enough chi as it is, we should be putting things in high priority and others in the "not worth it" catagory. I've not even met a handful of BMs that can use bolt properly, reason being how rare it is that it even can be used properly.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Demon maw is really underused as is draw blood you get a lot more dps and chi building by working those into combo though I would say its a pretty safe call to swap to the fast 100%+ weapon damage skill of your choice at 50% hp for the bypass chance

On the note of diminishing returns the moment the % of the def reduction begins to diminish the % of damage reduced from the last reduction begins to increase exponentially

Or in simple terms 1% of 50% and 1% of 89% are 2% and 9.1%

Jaabg - Sanctuary

I only tried it a few times, i did get about 2/3 a spark with demon drake sweep in nw; once only. It does come in handy when it procs, no clue about damage ability of the skill. My axes are weak, i don't take note of killing people with axes.

Of late, my personal nw score on bm is 8k~9k, some days 10k. Provided i don't get caught off guard and end up in base when base locked. My token distribution how ever is all over the map from 40 to 210, depending on the score of the nation.