Guide: Demon vs Sage

Mysticarella - Lost City

A Sage mystic goes to duel a Demon Mystic. The count down starts 3 - ... and the Sage mystic says: I dont know if you noticed... but Im sage! So I have better pdef than you!b:laugh
2 - Demon mystic says: oookaaay...I dont know if you notice....Im an arcane class...sooo...Im have magic attack.
1 - Demon mystic says: ooh...by the way...Im a faster caster than you...
GO! - Sage mystic: b:shocked

You finish the story....

Mysticarella - Lost City

OK lets compare the sage/demon skills in a fair way:

Nature's Vengeance :
Sage:Has a 20% chance to recover 30 Chi upon hitting the target
Demon:Adds additional 600 damage.
analysis: personally I dont like skills that "has a chance", so the increased damage on your primary attack skill is a winner.

Score: Sage 0 x Demon 1

Break in the Clouds:
Sage:Has a 25% chance to remove status ailments.
Demon: Has a 20% chance to gain 25 extra Chi.
analysis: again both "has chances", even that demon gives chi, Sage is better for purify.

Score: Sage 1 x Demon 1

Swirling Mist:
Sage:Does an additional 800 damage
Demon:Has a 25% chance to reduces target's Wood Resistance by 15% for 6 seconds
analysis: again with the chances...so extra damage is better way to go...

Score: Sage 2 x Demon 1

Falling Petals:
Sage:Has a 35% chance to recover your Mana by 280 in 6 seconds.
Demon:Effect time increased by 4 extra minutes.
analysis: one more time chances, and its not even worth it to get 280 mana back if the cost of the skill it self is 420, so no matter what you gonna waste mana. But 4 min for this skill is awesome.

Score: Sage 2 x Demon 2

Absorb Soul:
Sage: Gain 10 extra Chi.
Demon: Has a 80% chance to interrupt target's channeling.
analysis: Are you serious?? 10 chi back for a Sage skill!! Demon is again with "chances" but is 80%, so not too bad.

Score: Sage 2 x Demon 3

Resurrect:
Sage: EXP loss is reduced by 95%.
Demon:Recovers 100% HP upon reviving.
analysis: Really divide on both sides, but demon version reduce by 88% xp loss (just 7% difference) and to come back with 100% hp is much more usefull in PvP.

Score: Sage 2 x Demon 4

Gale Force:
Sage: Slows enemies around you by 70% for 3 seconds
Demon:Chance to immobilize target increased by 35%.
analysis: both are good in their way, the slow is fine but wont last long and they still can move, immobilize has higher chances...so I will consider a tie.

Score: Sage 2 x Demon 4

Comforting Mist:
Sage: Mana cost is reduced by 15%.
Demon:Has a 35% chance to remove status ailments.
analysis: mana reduce is nice but really doesnt matter much at the end we are mp consumers no matter what. Higher chances to purify you and your squad is much better.

Score: Sage 2 x Demon 5

Bramble Tornado:
Sage:Has a 25% chance to cast without costing Chi.
Demon:Knocks back the target by 1 extra meter.
analisys: one more time with "chances" to not cost 30 chi? not worth it. 13 meters knockback is very useful in TW.

Scose: Sage 2 x Demon 6

Thicket:
Sage:Does an additional 1500 damage.
Demon:Has a 25% chance to increase damage taken by target for 9 seconds.
analysis: oh no...chances again??? additional damage is the way!

Score: Sage 3 x Demon 6
continue...

ArchAngeLi - Harshlands

Mysticarella - Lost City wrote: »

A Sage mystic goes to duel a Demon Mystic. The count down starts 3 - ... and the Sage mystic says: I dont know if you noticed... but Im sage! So I have better pdef than you!b:laugh
2 - Demon mystic says: oookaaay...I dont know if you notice....Im an arcane class...sooo...Im have magic attack.
1 - Demon mystic says: ooh...by the way...Im a faster caster than you...
GO! - Sage mystic: b:shocked

You finish the story....

LOL this "story" is actually stupid. Why is a demon mystic a "faster caster"? That is only correct if both triple spark but I guess you assume both Mystics will tank each other triple spark and see who wins first lololololol

but what if the sage have full channeling build? your argument goes to the floor lol. Plus, both should have enough mdef/HP not to be afraid of the other.

I have another scenario for you, one that you will encounter in a real PvP or TW

Rank 9 archer goes: I have 90 attack levels, 25k physical attack and 15k hp fully buffed.
Demon Mystic goes: I have full channeling and will uber cast your ***... but 6k pdef
Rank 9 archer goes: Stun, normal. Bye Bye.

ArchAngeLi - Harshlands

Mysticarella - Lost City wrote: »

Resurrect:
Sage: EXP loss is reduced by 95%.
Demon:Recovers 100% HP upon reviving.
analysis: Really divide on both sides, but demon version reduce by 88% xp loss (just 7% difference) and to come back with 100% hp is much more usefull in PvP.

LOLWUT thats what charms were made of. Resurrect is a skill made for PvE to prevent users from losing exp, even clerics. 95 percent exp loss reduction is almost as close to cleric lvl 11 res and at lvls 101is when those percentages ACTUALLY matter.

Comforting Mist:
Sage: Mana cost is reduced by 15%.
Demon:Has a 35% chance to remove status ailments.
analysis: mana reduce is nice but really doesnt matter much at the end we are mp consumers no matter what. Higher chances to purify you and your squad is much better.

This skill has such a long chan/casting time and consumes so much mana that its not spammable. Plus, it doesnt heal as much as BiTC. The skill takes effect every 6 seconds /you could have done 5 Break in the clouds in those 6 seconds, heal more, use less mana and have 25 percent chance of purify on each heal. LOLWUT again


Bramble Tornado:
Sage:Has a 25% chance to cast without costing Chi.
Demon:Knocks back the target by 1 extra meter.
analisys: one more time with "chances" to not cost 30 chi? not worth it. 13 meters knockback is very useful in TW.

Yup, Archers, the main menace of wiz,clerics,venos and now mystics... wont pawn your *** with that knockback. LOLWUT

Fixed for ya

Mysticarella - Lost City

LOL, off couser both mystics have the same equips and both sparks at the same time.

So..in you archer x mystic sotyr you are saying that 600 more pdef you will not die???
OMG sage rules!!b:dirty

Mysticarella - Lost City

ArchAngeLi - Harshlands wrote: »

Fixed for ya

if you are using bramble tornado in archers, pls start a new class...archer have more damge as far from the opponent and you want to throw them futher away??? This is a skill for catas in tw!

Kimmahri - Harshlands

Mysticarella - Lost City wrote: »

LOL, off couser both mystics have the same equips and both sparks at the same time.

So..in you archer x mystic sotyr you are saying that 600 more pdef you will not die???
OMG sage rules!!b:dirty

I already chose my path but just passing by to say 600 more pdef will surely turn into much more when you are buffed. So in your opinion Cape Wings of the Cloudcharger with 500 pdef and 10 vit and all is useless uhmmm?

Mysticarella - Lost City wrote: »

if you are using bramble tornado in archers, pls start a new class...archer have more damge as far from the opponent and you want to throw them futher away??? This is a skill for catas in tw!

Are you saying you are gonna go through your heavily AOEd crystal to knockback the CATAS FURTHER AWAY FROM CRYSTAL ROFLMAO

Mysticarella - Lost City

So much hate from Sages....LOL I was just saying my point of view, if you have another, thats fine... Doesnt matter because at the end both path are good depending of your play style. You dont need to hate anyone...

Iseria - Harshlands

I think the OP used a title that would encourage people to read his thread, and wheter like it or not, everybody is reading this and discussing, YOU are reading it and discussing this.

It is also fascinating how people loves and dedicates time to bash someone just because she stated her opinions. If you have the time to keep coming back here and bash and try to troll each other -that goes to Mysticarella, you had no real reply for the fixes she made to your post so you had to troll with the "reroll" comment- then why dont you all demon people take the same time you use to come here and rage and make your own thread and post the upsides of demon? Just an advice from my part.

Isellmyself - Harshlands

Mysticarella - Lost City wrote: »

LOL, off couser both mystics have the same equips and both sparks at the same time.

So..in you archer x mystic sotyr you are saying that 600 more pdef you will not die???
OMG sage rules!!b:dirty

Uhm you make me feel like I scammed the person who bought my cloudcharger cape for 80m, I mean, if 600 pdef wont help him survive, 500 is like nothing. Well, Im glad I got rid of that cape then.

ArchAngeLi - Harshlands

enough trolling plz, don't feed da trolls >.<

Mysticarella - Lost City

continuing....
Verdant Shell:
Sage: Physical Defense increased by an additional 10%.
Demon:Increases own status evasion by 20% for 15 seconds.
analysis: additional pdef for 30 min, winner

Score: Sage 4 x Demon 6

Wood Mastery:
Sage:Sage skill increases Wood damage by 25%.
Demon:Demon version increases critical hit rate by 2%.
analysis: additional 5% is really good but in "Wood" damage which does not apply to Absorb Soul, 2% crit also really good

Score: Sage 5 x Demon 6

Energy Leech:
Sage:Immune immobilizing effects for 3 extra seconds.
Demon:Has a 50% chance to increase movement speed by 60%.
Lasts for 10 seconds.
analysis:Sage has 3 seconds more of antistun but doesnt mean immune to dmg. So I prefer to have 6 secs antistun and run away faster from damage.

Score: Sage 5 x Demon 7

Cragglord:
Sage: Effect time increased by 3 seconds.
Demon:Has a 25% chance to reduce Spark cost by 1.
analysis: demon is usefull because of of spark chances, but sage 3 secs more is about 2 more hit of high damage.

Score: Sage 6 x Demon 7

Rapid Growth:
Sage:Has a 25% chance to clear its cooldown time.
Demon:Cooldown time reduced by 10%.
analysis: this one was a downfall for demons, originally was -10% channeling but -10% cooldown isnt that great.

Score: Sage 7 x Demon 7

Chi:
Sage: Charge and gain 50 Chi instantly.
Demon: Stifle the opponent and decrease its Chi by 50.
analysis: I dont think I ever use demon chi effectly...

Score: Sage 8 x Demon 7

Spark:
Sage: Detonates all three Sparks to recover 20% of your maximum HP.
Grants bonus damage equal to 700% of weapon damage and
reduces all damage taken by 25% for 15 seconds.
Demon:Detonates all three Sparks to recover 20% of your maximum MP.
Grants bonus damage equal to 500% of weapon damage and
increases attack speed by 25% for 15 seconds.
analysis: Demons recover MP Sage HP(it maybe fix it in the future), Demons 500% damage Sage 700%(another that may be fix) So end up to Pdef or Channeling. For me I prefer channeling...

Score: Sage 8 x Demon 8

No matter what path you take, both in their way good, you have to choose whats best for you!

Mysticarella - Lost City

Isellmyself - Harshlands wrote: »

Uhm you make me feel like I scammed the person who bought my cloudcharger cape for 80m, I mean, if 600 pdef wont help him survive, 500 is like nothing. Well, Im glad I got rid of that cape then.

OMG, I not saying that 600 pdef is not good, off course it its! but wont save you from a R9 archer that stuns > attack.

Oh well...not replying anymore...b:kiss

ArchAngeLi - Harshlands

Mysticarella - Lost City wrote: »

No matter what path you take, both in their way good, you have to choose whats best for you!

+12 with mirages

VoItaire - Harshlands

Ok, for the entire pdef arguement I decided to compare two end game builds since you mentioned a r9 archer earlier.

http://pwcalc.com/818ea2d489b7ef43

http://pwcalc.com/d9927b95d63b7ad3

I used wizards because they don't have sage/demon verdant shell in the calc yet.

The first one represents a wizard using lvl 10 stone barrier to represent the sage mystic, the second using lvl 9 to represent a demon mystic, since they give the same pdef bonuses that sage and demon shell give.

As you can see, the difference here is a mere 1%. These are diminishing returns at work.

Edit: I'd much prefer the effect that demon gives similar to sin buffs.

Burnout - Harshlands

VoItaire - Harshlands wrote: »

Ok, for the entire pdef arguement I decided to compare two end game builds since you mentioned a r9 archer earlier.

http://pwcalc.com/818ea2d489b7ef43

http://pwcalc.com/d9927b95d63b7ad3

I used wizards because they don't have sage/demon verdant shell in the calc yet.

The first one represents a wizard using lvl 10 stone barrier to represent the sage mystic, the second using lvl 9 to represent a demon mystic, since they give the same pdef bonuses that sage and demon shell give.

As you can see, the difference here is a mere 1%. These are diminishing returns at work.

Edit: I'd much prefer the effect that demon gives similar to sin buffs.

Sage verdant will actually make you take 3% less damage than demon at that level...but your point still stands, the 20% evasion is slightly better, "in theory".

"in theory" is the key word, however...

In the event of most pk situations, if I have a BM or sin beating on me, I AM NOT casting a 1 sec channel, 1.5 sec cast spell to give me 20% chance at evasion. That time is better spent casting a BITC, refilling 5k of my hp, or using nature's barrier, which is a GUARANTEED 50% reduction in damage. You just can't afford to give the enemy a free 2.5 seconds to beat on you for just a 20% evasion chance for 15 seconds afterwards.

So in most cases demon verdant shell is not really that useful. So in actual pvp settings Sage Verdant is better than Demon verdant. In duels? Demon will win out.

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Sage verdant will actually make you take 3% less damage than demon at that level...but your point still stands, the 20% evasion is slightly better, "in theory".

"in theory" is the key word, however...

In the event of most pk situations, if I have a BM or sin beating on me, I AM NOT casting a 1 sec channel, 1.5 sec cast spell to give me 20% chance at evasion. That time is better spent casting a BITC, refilling 5k of my hp, or using nature's barrier, which is a GUARANTEED 50% reduction in damage. You just can't afford to give the enemy a free 2.5 seconds to beat on you for just a 20% evasion chance for 15 seconds afterwards.

So in most cases demon verdant shell is not really that useful. So in actual pvp settings Sage Verdant is better than Demon verdant. In duels? Demon will win out.

I don't know about you, but in PvP I only need 15 seconds to bypass someones charm...

stonk

I think personally demon > sage for the Mystic and here is why.

Demon Spark > Sage spark :in group pk. I made my mystic as an alt to tw with b:dirty demon makes tab killing easier.

Demon Galeforce>Sage: Slow means nothing on all classes except for barbs. Sealing more frequently in a AoE b:dirty Much more useful in a group fight.

Knockback D>S: you all know why.

Natures Vengance D>S: More dmg

BiTC D>S get chi faster than sages b:shutup.

Swirling Mist D>S Poisen damage is really insignificant in pvp.

Absorb Soul =/=: both are somewhat useless. the interupt channel would be nice but you would have to cast is ebfore your opponent started casting his or her skill for it to work b:surrender

Thicket D>S amp winage.

Verdent Shell S>D: b:sad More pdef.

Rapid Growth D>S more channel win.

Comforting Mist D>S purify ftw.

Falling petals D>S: Sage version is rubbish.

Ressurect D>S useless for tw. you still res with the seal. PVE both side have a arguement, PVP Demon beats sage everytime.

Mistriss+Salvation+Chiyu D>S: who cares abhout MP cost mana charms and pots are cheap as chips.

Cragglord S>D : duration win.

Energy Leech S>D more immune > chance of being able to run. who needs to run when you can knockback anyways

Mastery has to go to sage.

I think for a pk/tw character the benefits of demon outweigh those of sage. Dont hate me sages.

Kimmahri - Harshlands

stonk wrote: »

I think personally demon > sage for the Mystic and here is why.

Demon Spark > Sage spark :in group pk. I made my mystic as an alt to tw with b:dirty demon makes tab killing easier.

I think for a pk/tw character the benefits of demon outweigh those of sage. Dont hate me sages.

lol wut? you are gonna demon spark and expect no one to notice you while you autoshoot everybody? who are you TWing aginst? lvl 50s?

In grup PK/TW sage spark would be better. More damage per hit and damage reduction in hand. If you are trusting on demon petals, it can go off in 1 hit and even if you had it for 4 minutes, you can still get 1 shot after demon sparking.

stonk

Yes, Actually. b:victory Since map reset still some lower factions have land.

Namari - Dreamweaver

sparking in TW is just screaming to get you killed (or at the very least stunned). Fun to do, I would say, but meh.

I read...and read...and read about 10 times more before I made my decision. Granted, I could change (I seriously doubt it since I have ~30 mil worth of books waiting for me when I hit 89) before then, but yeah.

At first I was like "I'm going demon", for the extra channeling. But after reading the skills, I was like "well, verdant shell is awesome". Then I looked even more and saw Craggy's sexy 3 second longer duration, which doesn't seem like much, but well, it's still sexy since he does wtfdamage in those 20 seconds even at level 1. And ****, isn't there a screenshot floating around showing him do 100k hits on level ? mobs in delta? b:shocked

The way I ended up deciding on sage was keeping in mind of my playstyle--most of my chars have been pdef based (hence part of why I have a demon wizard). That's what everyone should do instead of turning everyone against each other and stuffs. Stop listening to everyone else and listen to your heart. When it's calling for you. Listen to your heart. There's...dammit, sorry about breaking into random song.

RouxLouka - Dreamweaver

I had a chance to personally make use of res buff on myself multiple times today against Emperor on a 3-2 run. At level 10, whenever I ressed my charm did not activate and was stuck at ~50% until I actually healed myself. The cooldown bar on the charm never moved. There's no way it could have activated beforehand since he hits for more than my hp unbuffed. I don't see how demon res would.

ArchAngeLi - Harshlands

RouxLouka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I had a chance to personally make use of res buff on myself multiple times today against Emperor on a 3-2 run. At level 10, whenever I ressed my charm did not activate and was stuck at ~50% until I actually healed myself. The cooldown bar on the charm never moved. There's no way it could have activated beforehand since he hits for more than my hp unbuffed. I don't see how demon res would.

must change my culti to demon then so I can buff every1 with demon res and prevent the world from charm ticking after dyin. b:surrender

Asthariel - Dreamweaver

Namari - Dreamweaver wrote: »

sparking in TW is just screaming to get you killed (or at the very least stunned). Fun to do, I would say, but meh.

I read...and read...and read about 10 times more before I made my decision. Granted, I could change (I seriously doubt it since I have ~30 mil worth of books waiting for me when I hit 89) before then, but yeah.

At first I was like "I'm going demon", for the extra channeling. But after reading the skills, I was like "well, verdant shell is awesome". Then I looked even more and saw Craggy's sexy 3 second longer duration, which doesn't seem like much, but well, it's still sexy since he does wtfdamage in those 20 seconds even at level 1. And ****, isn't there a screenshot floating around showing him do 100k hits on level ? mobs in delta? b:shocked

The way I ended up deciding on sage was keeping in mind of my playstyle--most of my chars have been pdef based (hence part of why I have a demon wizard). That's what everyone should do instead of turning everyone against each other and stuffs. Stop listening to everyone else and listen to your heart. When it's calling for you. Listen to your heart. There's...dammit, sorry about breaking into random song.

Before I could even see the sage/demon versions of the skills, right when I started my Mystic, I was like "I'll very likely to go for the culti that will give me extra pdef, whichever it is". Then I saw the sage skills, saw the extra pdef on Verdant Shell and my choice was almost already made. Like Namari, I have two other 100+ magic chars and I had always love adding myself all the pdef bonuses I could. Like her, I love Craggy so much that I immediately saw the usefulness in the extra duration. And purify on BitC its just awesome.
As for the channeling, a sage Mystic can already reach a very big amount without needing demon spark and I assume that some skills must cast so fast that it will get glitched at a certain point...

And as she said, sparking in TW warns everyone who sees who sparking "hey ! use AD, stun me, kill me asap ! Hey, the fox veno ! Come purge me asap !" <.<
You have better uses to make of your sparks in TW than actually sparking.

I'm not rich, so, right now I only have learnt sage BitC, Energy Leech (gotta love the extra stun immunity duration ) and I have Bramble Tornado but I'd so like to trade it for something else cause it's not my priority b:chuckle

ArchAngeLi - Harshlands

Asthariel - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Before I could even see the sage/demon versions of the skills, right when I started my Mystic, I was like "I'll very likely to go for the culti that will give me extra pdef, whichever it is". Then I saw the sage skills, saw the extra pdef on Verdant Shell and my choice was almost already made. Like Namari, I have two other 100+ magic chars and I had always love adding myself all the pdef bonuses I could. Like her, I love Craggy so much that I immediately saw the usefulness in the extra duration. And purify on BitC its just awesome.
As for the channeling, a sage Mystic can already reach a very big amount without needing demon spark and I assume that some skills must cast so fast that it will get glitched at a certain point...

And as she said, sparking in TW warns everyone who sees who sparking "hey ! use AD, stun me, kill me asap ! Hey, the fox veno ! Come purge me asap !" <.<
You have better uses to make of your sparks in TW than actually sparking.

I'm not rich, so, right now I only have learnt sage BitC, Energy Leech (gotta love the extra stun immunity duration ) and I have Bramble Tornado but I'd so like to trade it for something else cause it's not my priority b:chuckle

+1

/nuff said

Burnout - Harshlands

This is the same w/ mages...you go Sage for pve/TW, demon for pk. Most mages choose sage.

Sage definitely has better skills overall. But what are some of the clear advantages I can see in demon?

1. 85% paralyze chance on Gale force is amazing for pvp.

2. Demon Spark + rapid growth + stun pot = 12 seconds of flat-out amazing dps. You CAN spark in TW, as long as you have the gear to tank long enough and the pots to make it work. A veno is not going to be there everytime for purge.

3. 100% ressurect. This means full hp and full mana. I've tested normal res @ 50% and the charm does not tick. This means a barb/cleric who gets up will get an extra charm tick in pvp. It's not MAJOR but it's a definite advantage over Sage.

4. 25% damage proc on Thicket. This is just hands down better than a flat 1500 damage. 1500 damage in pvp on a skill with bad scaling like Thicket is like 200 damage. Demon proc is superior, especially when it works.

...That's it. Why didn't I mention demon BITC? Well, for one, it's on average 5 extra chi per cast. Sages can gain 50 chi in...2 seconds. If both sage and demon mystics spammed BITC, demons would have to cast it 10 times just to equal out the chi from Master Li's technique.

Why didn't I mention Nature's vengeance? Again, 600 damage on our main nuke is nice, but is only equal to about 100 damage in pvp. One sage chi proc lets you Bramble Tornado, which gives a bonus 2500 damage (around 300-400 pvp damage).

If you have good gear and KNOW how to use sparks effectively in pvp, then demon is not a bad choice. But it's definitely the harder path that has some unique advantages. You can't underestimate demon spark in pvp, and if you play a good demon archer then you have some experience in using it effectively.

Kimmahri - Harshlands

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

This is the same w/ mages...you go Sage for pve/TW, demon for pk. Most mages choose sage.

Sage definitely has better skills overall.
4. 25% damage proc on Thicket. This is just hands down better than a flat 1500 damage. 1500 damage in pvp on a skill with bad scaling like Thicket is like 200 damage. Demon proc is superior, especially when it works..

Just popping out to say plant/summon damage does NOT suffer PVP Damage reduction.

Burnout - Harshlands

Kimmahri - Harshlands wrote: »

Just popping out to say plant/summon damage does NOT suffer PVP Damage reduction.

You might be thinking about lvl ?? boss damage reduction. If what you said was true I'd be hitting Nirvana-geared players for 6-7k + with my lvl 85 +4 pataka.

Asthariel - Dreamweaver

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

You might be thinking about lvl ?? boss damage reduction. If what you said was true I'd be hitting Nirvana-geared players for 6-7k + with my lvl 85 +4 pataka.

This.
If our plants and summons were doing full damage in PvP, we'd be even more of a threat than sins, and everyone would already call us OP .-.
My Mistress hits around 10k with her first skill, my Cragglord can hit about 20k in aoe and I hit around 50k with Thicket. We would just run around in pk mode to one-shot everything in sight b:surrender
But yeah, the non damage reduction on [?] bosses/mobs rocks, it lets us a chance to be useful in delta since we can aoe hard with Thicket and Cragglord's aoe.

ArchAngeLi - Harshlands

Indeed. Thicket DOES have PvP reduction, but in things like GV... it hits tremendously hard lol