Any votes to make Cragglord permanent?

Caterpie - Dreamweaver

Honestly, every time a Mystic suggests a 10+ minute Cragglord, a homeless kitten dies. Think about it a little bit, people. Let's imagine a 30 minute Cragg like what Alunnya suggested. Now look at this post that I made a few pages back.

Caterpie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Cragglord's purpose is to deliver high spike damage over 20 seconds.

Here, just to make you happy, I went and did a little test with the Ancient Sea Dragon.

Each test was 20 seconds long (I used a stopwatch for the first two, and just kept going till Cragg died on the third

2xSpark NV spam with level 10 Devil spamming Folding Strike: 100,719 dmg
Level 1 Thicket followed by NV spam with a level 10 Devil spamming Folding Strike: 105,950 dmg
NV spam with a level 1 Cragglord spamming skills (I believe he got 5 skills out): 140,221 dmg


Cragglord is better for killing single targets, nuff said.

In 20 seconds, Cragglord does roughly 40k more damage than a double spark.
Now multiply that by 90 (20x90=1800/60=30 minutes)
Cragg would then do an estimated 3.6 million damage more than a double spark, on top of the fact that, since he's out for so long, you can combine him with a double spark or thicket as time goes on.

He can also practically 1-shot equal-level equal-geared players, so that's 30 minutes of going around 1-shotting everything in sight in PvP (until a sin comes by and 1-shots you from stealth of course).

If they made Cragglord last for 30minutes, they'd have to give him a 1 week cooldown to compensate the imbalance.

Daltia - Sanctuary

with those numbers at that level...you'd be soloing FCC at 60 (if you could open the door)...and people still don't think its OP.

Haden - Dreamweaver

I'd probably agree to raising his summon time to 30-40 seconds... MAYBE a minute, but.. not more than that, and I say this because well its a skill, not a buff, and from what I've come to understand, its a powerful skill at that. Anyone able to post the stats and a comparison to nix and herc, just to see what kind of damage is being considered op?

Burnout - Harshlands

Haden - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'd probably agree to raising his summon time to 30-40 seconds... MAYBE a minute, but.. not more than that, and I say this because well its a skill, not a buff, and from what I've come to understand, its a powerful skill at that. Anyone able to post the stats and a comparison to nix and herc, just to see what kind of damage is being considered op?

These people aren't complaining about actual length. What they want is a *permanent* pet. If it's not permanent then the duration doesn't really matter.

If you wanted a permanent pet...there's a class called venomancer

---

> that way.

Caterpie - Dreamweaver

Haden - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'd probably agree to raising his summon time to 30-40 seconds... MAYBE a minute, but.. not more than that, and I say this because well its a skill, not a buff, and from what I've come to understand, its a powerful skill at that. Anyone able to post the stats and a comparison to nix and herc, just to see what kind of damage is being considered op?

4 mystic pets of Amancay (+10 r8 weapon, kind of mediocre armor, so there's still quite a bit of room for improvement)
Rawr

The two Cragg skills:
Eruption
Mana: 0
Channel: 0.3sec
Cast: 0.9sec
Cooldown: 6sec
Fire damage equal to 4 times the summon's basic magic attack to all enemies within 5 meters of the target. Deals continuous xxxx (Mine's only level 1, so no clue what the fire damage is when maxed) fire damage for the next 6 seconds

Cometfall
Mana: 0
Channel:1.0sec
Cast: 1.5sec
Cooldown: 10sec
Deals 3 times the summon's basic attack damage to all enemies within 10 meters of itself. (still not 100% sure if this is physical or fire damage yet)


Level 100 Herc (stats taken from Ecatomb)
HP: 4585
Atk: 3210
Pdef: 9952
Mdef: 7961
Acc: 2547
Evasion: 1358
Aps: 0.8

Nowhere near the defense of a herc (especially including the herc's buffs) but over double the HP (and this is without a single piece of gear past +5, some +0/1 iirc)

Level 100 Nix
HP: 3821
Atk: 4922
Pdef: 9952
Mdef: 11942
Acc: 2887
Evasion: 1698
Aps: 1.0

Higher base attack than the nix (though the nix pulls ahead by about 1k with it's atk buff). Nearly 4 times the accuracy, and same attack speed (though, again, nix pulls ahead by a little when under Pounce's aps boost)

Outlaw_Arch - Heavens Tear

i can't believe people are still going on with this. at level 60, using a 3 star level 40 armor and level 50 something legend leggings, with a wheel of fate, i was able to almost beat a level 77 BM i lost cos the bm challanged me to a deul and he was right up on to me so when i clicked him, i clicked my pet instead. by the time i had him seclected he had me and my crag stunned. upon the stun wearing off however, i used the 2 skills crag had and knocked his hp down to a little more than half, with my casting spells o my own, he barely survived. now imagine if i had better armor and my level 60 TT weapon.


been in a party for bh 39. i decided to send crag after ferren just for lols after my devil died in ferrens aoe. crag quickly outdamaged what devil did. when i sent him after the boss, the boss had half it's hp. by the time it despelled it almost knocked it down to 1/4 hp. few skills can do that kind of damage at level 59 in 20 seconds (if i'm wrong let me know. my knowlege in some classes is limited.) also take note. i sent the summon after the boss some ways out of it's aoe attack range. so it wasted some time traveling and STILL got 2 attacks off and it could have gotten another one to but i just let it attack normally just in cast it took arrgo from the bm.

yet in the face of this, people still blindly think crag is not worth it and it's summon time should be extended. some jump up and say thicket is better, saying it's freeze and silance make it worth while. ummm the point of freezing and silancing is so you don't come under attack, if you use craglord, he will get arrgo, doing the exact same thing as thicket minus silancing. crag also out damages thicket by miles.


now some people complain about the mana cost. the sultion to this is simple, just like our res buff, where we are selective on who we cast it on, we should be selective on what we use this summon on. said it before and i'll say it again, this summon is best used for bosses plain and simple. if you have the mp to burn then by all means use it on normal mobs. but your better off using your other summons for normal grinding.

can someone PLEASE explain EXACTLY why this summon time should be extened? this question mostly goes out to those who are calling for a 1 minute or higher duration, cos the way i see it, in the one minute, you can do massive damage and build back up chi to summon it right back when it disspels, basically making the summon semi permanent. i myself said that this summon may be able tto pull off and extension by 5 secs 10 even although thats stretching it. but more than a minute? when mystics have a inta heal for their pets? that's asking for another OP class.


it's amazing how other classes have skills that suck, yet no one QQs aout those but mystics have this beast of battle and are crying about how it should last longer.

Caterpie - Dreamweaver

Outlaw_Arch - Heavens Tear wrote: »

can someone PLEASE explain EXACTLY why this summon time should be extened?

that's asking for another OP class.

You kinda answered your own question. People who want Cragg to be extended don't like that it's balanced, and WANT it to be OP, so they can roll every thing in PvE and PvP.

DaichiOni - Dreamweaver

i want my cragglord kewkew

BottleNeck - Heavens Tear

You guys are forgetting 1 thing. It's skills are free. Basically a 20 second window to spam as much damage as possible. In my opinion it's basically a hardcore dd, and better so that during boss fights etc. maybe storm mistress might be better for grinding, but for bosses a short term high intensity dd is the way to go.

Asura_Shiva - Raging Tide

Haven't used it yet due to being lvl 23 ... I'd say change it to a Zhen skill. xDD

Playing a Mystic really isn't hard. Use buffs when you comeback in-game, summon which ever pet you wish, transference the rest of your MP (mainly anyways). Get to which mob you want to kill and use your basic skill that amps up Absorb Soul and use Absorb Soul. The total amount of MP wasted is 2 of your regular heals. Just make sure to add in your spark moves when you can use them and you should be fine.

Well that is all i can say for now. xD

XVBx - Dreamweaver

i like to think of cragglord like a cleric's tempest attack, only it lasts longer.b:victory

rstyche

pvp -

atttacking - only good for catching people of guard since its easily outrun and has time limit

defending - can be good to save you if rushed but this can be done with pushback and thickets

do i think its usefull not really considering you have to find a group of nubs or catch someone off guard to actually have any fun with it

pve -

i only use it when another summon dies as payback for killing my summon is it good for anything else? considering it means wasting mana (this can be alot of mana) and 2x spark i say no my reason for saying this is using storm mistress and thickets when you have the 2x spark is also good damage and you waste time to summon new pet and send it to boss to attack for 20 seconds only to summon something else heal it fill it with mana then send it to boss oh and dont forget during this your not really sending out attacks because your to busy playing with your summons (i use boss as an example because using cragglord on mobs is just lol)

should this summon be made permanent yes under these conditions

1.reduce damage to a bit less than the devil skills should be nerfed or given a 1 miute cool down

2.keep def. hp and resist as is

3.make skills use mana

an alternate suggestion

maybe it should have been a 20 second skill to invoke the power of the cragglord on an existing summon for 20 sec seems to me that might be a bit more usefull considering you wouldnt need to re summon and go through a bunch of nonsense and i dont really think it would be anything that could be considered op and hercs arent made useless

and to all those that feel frisky and want to do the math please consider everything re summon time the time you and your summon arent attacking 20 second test doesnt do the job downtime adds up and your not building spark while trying to get every bit of attack from from your cragglord maybe math isnt the best option get a cleric to bb you and time you as you kill a boss with both methods 1.using cragglord when you have spark and anything else you can do to icrease your damage 2. mistress, thicket and you attacking
im to lazy and will go on what ive seen which is not enough diff in damage to justify the all the work

Lady_buffer - Heavens Tear

rstyche wrote: »

pvp -

atttacking - only good for catching people of guard since its easily outrun and has time limit

defending - can be good to save you if rushed but this can be done with pushback and thickets

do i think its usefull not really considering you have to find a group of nubs or catch someone off guard to actually have any fun with it

pve -

i only use it when another summon dies as payback for killing my summon is it good for anything else? considering it means wasting mana (this can be alot of mana) and 2x spark i say no my reason for saying this is using storm mistress and thickets when you have the 2x spark is also good damage and you waste time to summon new pet and send it to boss to attack for 20 seconds only to summon something else heal it fill it with mana then send it to boss oh and dont forget during this your not really sending out attacks because your to busy playing with your summons (i use boss as an example because using cragglord on mobs is just lol)

should this summon be made permanent yes under these conditions

1.reduce damage to a bit less than the devil skills should be nerfed or given a 1 miute cool down

2.keep def. hp and resist as is

3.make skills use mana

an alternate suggestion

maybe it should have been a 20 second skill to invoke the power of the cragglord on an existing summon for 20 sec seems to me that might be a bit more usefull considering you wouldnt need to re summon and go through a bunch of nonsense and i dont really think it would be anything that could be considered op and hercs arent made useless

and to all those that feel frisky and want to do the math please consider everything re summon time the time you and your summon arent attacking 20 second test doesnt do the job downtime adds up and your not building spark while trying to get every bit of attack from from your cragglord maybe math isnt the best option get a cleric to bb you and time you as you kill a boss with both methods 1.using cragglord when you have spark and anything else you can do to icrease your damage 2. mistress, thicket and you attacking
im to lazy and will go on what ive seen which is not enough diff in damage to justify the all the work

agreed, in pvp it isn't smart to use this unless you get the jump on the target.

in pve it's only partical on bosses. and really, that's good enuf. why waste time making this thing permanet?


if what you say is true, and the diffrance in attack power isn't all that much when compaered to using thicket, then what's the big deal? some classes have 2 spark skills that just flat out suck. take an archer's barrage of arrows, decent skill. now look at it's other 2 spark Dot skill, it sucks and doesn't do anywhere near as much damage as barrage of arrows. so i think it's ok to leave the summon as is.

but perosnally, i find that there is a signicatnt diffrence in damage when using cragglord after using it and my thicket combo on bosses repeatedly. the bosses get more biten out of their hp when using craglord. the time it takes to resummon another pet isn't signifcant enuf to make a big impact, even if the summon needs to run to the target (something i rarly do. if i use craglord, then i'm gonna be near the boss unless it has in aoe). heck sometimes i don't even resummon a pet on the boss, i just continue to spam nature's vengance. the problem here, as stated by several others, is that people are fixed on the idea that summons should stick around until the summoner says otherwise. cragglord should be considered a skill like thicket.


however the points you make, should crag become permanent is quite reasonable.

CaitlinDan - Heavens Tear

Wow, wonderful replies. Yes, I see how that making it permanent would be too overpowered. But the thing is, mystics is all about commanding pets to attack, and it doesn't make sense that the second and third summons are so weak. If they aren't for attacking, it's quite silly to refer to mystics as a support class.

Perhaps the idea here would be to lower the damage of a Cragglord, such that it's stronger than a Devil Chihyu and still not too legendary that Hercules and Phoenix becomes obsolete - after the battle pack sale, I'm sure venos will scream bloody murder. But at least make something a bit stronger for mystics to use.

Some people might claim that Storm Mistress/Salvation is not for attack and it's for skills and tanking but no one wants to use them for that. There are tankers and other spell casters for those roles.

Plus, every single mystic I've seen chooses to use Devil Chihyu for the boost in attack during battle.

Then again, just my viewpoint.

Thanks everyone for the replies and comments and suggestions.

Outlaw_Arch - Heavens Tear

CaitlinDan - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Wow, wonderful replies. Yes, I see how that making it permanent would be too overpowered. But the thing is, mystics is all about commanding pets to attack, and it doesn't make sense that the second and third summons are so weak. If they aren't for attacking, it's quite silly to refer to mystics as a support class.

Perhaps the idea here would be to lower the damage of a Cragglord, such that it's stronger than a Devil Chihyu and still not too legendary that Hercules and Phoenix becomes obsolete - after the battle pack sale, I'm sure venos will scream bloody murder. But at least make something a bit stronger for mystics to use.

Some people might claim that Storm Mistress/Salvation is not for attack and it's for skills and tanking but no one wants to use them for that. There are tankers and other spell casters for those roles.

Plus, every single mystic I've seen chooses to use Devil Chihyu for the boost in attack during battle.

Then again, just my viewpoint.

Thanks everyone for the replies and comments and suggestions.

let's see. mystics have a wide array of debuffs, heals, and a buff that kinda works like a one time hp charm. in addtion to that, they have salvation, which is made for the sole perpose of SUPPORT. speak for yourself lol people love me when i use sally, and no other class has a buff that can give an effect simular to winged shell.

people don't use storm becos she needs alot of mana to work effectively, since she has sucking mana regen, and mana is in high demand for that class, most players don'tt bother giving her mana and just leech her. if they were to fix the mana issue with storm, you'll see people use it more.

it makes perfect sense that some of the summons are "weak". you can't have a load of high defence and attack pets. the last 2 pets are strong in their own way.

Genitorture - Harshlands

me and my GF was discussing the Cragglord, and as the moast ppl we agree on that making cragglord would be OP, but one thing that you could do, insted of cragglord being a Summon, make it a "boost" for the Devil

something like a "20 sec evulotion skill" keep the 2 spark coast, keep the 1min CD, and the 20 sek it stays, but change it so you need to have devil summoned, then you can transform the Devil to a Cragglord for 20 sek, and when time is up, then the cragglord turns back to the devil

like some ppl sed earlyer, the cragglord summon makes your other pet summon go away, and if you use cragglord on a boss or mob and it dissapares b4 mob/boss is dead then you have all the aggro, and thats a problem, making the devil transform to a cragglord for 20 sek would remove the fact that we stand without a summon after cragglord dies

Desdi - Sanctuary

Genitorture - Harshlands wrote: »

me and my GF was discussing the Cragglord, and as the moast ppl we agree on that making cragglord would be OP, but one thing that you could do, insted of cragglord being a Summon, make it a "boost" for the Devil

something like a "20 sec evulotion skill" keep the 2 spark coast, keep the 1min CD, and the 20 sek it stays, but change it so you need to have devil summoned, then you can transform the Devil to a Cragglord for 20 sek, and when time is up, then the cragglord turns back to the devil

like some ppl sed earlyer, the cragglord summon makes your other pet summon go away, and if you use cragglord on a boss or mob and it dissapares b4 mob/boss is dead then you have all the aggro, and thats a problem, making the devil transform to a cragglord for 20 sek would remove the fact that we stand without a summon after cragglord dies

This would be a nice addition for every summon. Like Energy Leech it could differently on every summon.

violetvalor

Outlaw_Arch - Heavens Tear wrote: »

... and no other class has a buff that can give an effect simular to winged shell. ...

Clerics have a wonderful level 79 skill: Wings of Protection.

Cast a shield on a target to absorb a portion of their incoming damage until that amount equals 20% of the target's maximum HP. The shield disappears after 30 seconds, or when it has reached its capacity.

It is an instant cast skill and it does not take aggro! b:pleased

Outlaw_Arch - Heavens Tear

Genitorture - Harshlands wrote: »

like some ppl sed earlyer, the cragglord summon makes your other pet summon go away, and if you use cragglord on a boss or mob and it dissapares b4 mob/boss is dead then you have all the aggro, and thats a problem, making the devil transform to a cragglord for 20 sek would remove the fact that we stand without a summon after cragglord dies

just for the record, you should let aggro build on the boss before you summon cragg just like how i would hold back on my barrage until the boss's hp hits a certain point. i've seen sqaud wipes happen when mystics summon cragglord right off the bat beofre the bm could build proper aggrob:surrender assuming you are trying to solo an instance, then hell no. cragglord will get you killed (unless you use it when the boss is near death). like many skills, cragglord is a skill that should be used under certain situations.

if used against a mob it WILL die beofre the time goes out, what may happen is that you may send it after another mob, not a smart thing to do.

however the 20 sec buff would be intresting i admit:D

Fluxal - Dreamweaver

Interesting post. I also think the best idea would be the Devil transforming to the cragglord for XX seconds, however, that would entail a fairly comprehensive code re-write of the pet code for both of them. My guess is that that's never going to happen at the PWI level. Most likely the only choice would be something simple like changing the timer.

With that in mind, I think it might be good to make the cragglord "instance aware". So like if you spawned him against normal mobs, he might have a 1 minute lifespan, but if you spawned him against a dungeon mob or boss, he could have a 2 minute lifespan....or something along those lines.

Centetric - Lost City

Fluxal - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Interesting post. I also think the best idea would be the Devil transforming to the cragglord for XX seconds, however, that would entail a fairly comprehensive code re-write of the pet code for both of them. My guess is that that's never going to happen at the PWI level. Most likely the only choice would be something simple like changing the timer.

With that in mind, I think it might be good to make the cragglord "instance aware". So like if you spawned him against normal mobs, he might have a 1 minute lifespan, but if you spawned him against a dungeon mob or boss, he could have a 2 minute lifespan....or something along those lines.

i like that transforming idea!

anyway it should totally be extended to 30seconds. after that change is made you SURE won't see me complaining.
with crag you have to send him out so he can run to the mob. then he channels his skills. thats like 10secs off already.

10second increase won't do much harm b:surrender

RunDown - Sanctuary

i agree cragglord should be permanent -.- 20sec is soo lil , right now cragglord is soo useless!i can't summon my cragglord and give it mp in 20 secs it can't happen -.- & how come mystic only have healin herbs and herbs that lower attack and debuff a herb that gains mp would be good -.-'' !

Caterpie - Dreamweaver

RunDown - Sanctuary wrote: »

i agree cragglord should be permanent -.- 20sec is soo lil , right now cragglord is soo useless!i can't summon my cragglord and give it mp in 20 secs it can't happen -.- & how come mystic only have healin herbs and herbs that lower attack and debuff a herb that gains mp would be good -.-'' !

Cragglord... kinda....doesn't use mp. b:embarrass

Kaiyal - Sanctuary

i think cragglord should be permanent,but how about instead of him being so powerful,they lower him down to a more manageable status level,and give him a 20 second boost that costs your two sparks,so you dont have to switch summons right after using him

RouxLouka - Dreamweaver

Best solution is to treat cragglord as a separate pet. Just like how you can summon vital + other plants at the same time.

XxLady_XelxX - Dreamweaver

RouxLouka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Best solution is to treat cragglord as a separate pet. Just like how you can summon vital + other plants at the same time.

That'd be even more ridiculous than just a longer Cragglord. And longer Cragg would be pretty f'd up as it is. XD

Personal opinion: Keep it as it is. It's a 2-spark nuke on legs, not an actual summon IMO.

RunDown - Sanctuary

Caterpie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Cragglord... kinda....doesn't use mp. b:embarrass

oh O_O! but still hey should do somethin too make cragglord permnentb:cry

Outlaw_Arch - Heavens Tear

lol this thread really needs to die. it's been posted several times why cragglord is fine the way it is. yet NO ONE who thinks this summon should be permanent can give a valid reason for it to be so.
QQ when it dispells i get aggro
QQ it costs mana
QQ thickey is better (yeah right>_>)
QQ because it's worthless

someone anyone state a good reson for graglord to be permant even WITH it being nerfed. and don't try to throw that it could be a tank card either. devil can tank just fine on same level mobs. since devil can be a decent enuf tank, why have another? what you people want is to be able to solo instances with no cost. sins bms venos and barbs can solo due to them having to invest a considerable amount of coin/money to be able to be one man parties. but what people want here is is cragglord, a powerful DD permant so they can solo instances for free with no expenses like refines and gear. if this happened PWE would miss out on a fair deal of money. how many people use real money to get hurcs or nixs, or just buy gold to sell over for coin so they can get better gear?


only thing everyone needs to do is sit down and learn to play this class. learning to play a class is very easy. stop expecting everything to be handed out on a silver platter. i personally never died unintentionally when killing normal mobs, and i rarly die in instances and i NEVER get aggro when using cragglord.

Caterpie - Dreamweaver

QQ I want to be OP and 1-shot everyone and I want to farm fb89 for books at level 61. b:cryb:cryb:cry

SonZ - Raging Tide

It should be when you level it, it lasts 1sec longer.
lvl1: 20sec
lvl2: 21sec
etc.
lvl10: 30sec