How has the aps craze affected you?

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

As the title says, how has the craze affected your game play?

Before I get into my story, I want to start by saying this, 5.0 is only overpowered in pve, and solo pvp, but mass pvp it merely gives meleers a chance to kill the rangers/magicians. [Provided the 5.0'ers can live long enough to get at them] (Thought I would get that out of the way since the discussion will almost undoubtedly turn that way)

Also, I know my grammar isn't the best, but meh it's here, so read it or don't, I do not care, I just want to get this off of my chest.

I know a lot of psy's, wizards, venos, and even clerics struggle to find squads for nirvana, etc. It even effects those bms, archers, barbs, and even sins who do not have that all powerful 5.0 attacks per second.

Anyways let me tell you how it effects me personally.

Let me start off by telling you all a story... my horror story if you will. Remember back in December when dragon fire packs were on sale? Well I do, and this is why. What I did was bought and resold with in game coins... 1500 gold, over the entire month it was on sale. In attempt to get that ever elusive dragon orb flame to sell that and get as close as I possibly could to 5.0, before I called it quits and moved on. Which I as many of you probably guessed did not get... needless to say I was pissed, but I tried moving on, looking at the brighter side of things, at least I made out a little and made a bit of a profit. Alas, at the end of the month I ended up trying my luck on the tiger packs, only ended up with a WT-LG, sold it, bought GV (gold fc fist + tried luck with more packs) and now I am down to a little over 2m.

Anyways as I continue to play this game after that crappy luck, I keep running into COUNTLESS people that not only have insane aps, but their gear is HIGHLY refine, and I m 90% sure I haven't seen them anywhere before, so one would have to assume they were either getting it long before me, or they made a class to equip fists/claws and get insane aps.

All that over the past few months, as well as seeing the countless people continue to have better gear, out damage me, and having a better survivability rate then me, is really discouraging me from playing my bm, it is just plain down right STRESSFUL to feel I need 5.0, to be on par with others.

Also one more thing I want to mention while I rant about how stressful its been to NOT have 5.0, and that is how difficult bosses have become if you don't have it, case and point the TT/BH 3-3 boss... hell all the bosses in nirvana are a down right pain in the *** to kill unless at least one person has 5.0. (Neither are impossible without a 5.0, but you seriously have to be on the top of your game, and even then hope like hell the boss doesn't do something insane/people lag, and the squad wipe continuously.

/end rant

Meh, I seriously don't know if I will continue to play my bm, but things don't look very promising for my favorite class, when my sin not only out damages it, but it also has a very nice ability to get chi without having to wait an eternity.

I guess for now I am semi-retiring this bm.

P.s I'll probably still get on it for bh's and such, but meh I doubt I'll ever do a TT/Nirvana run with it anytime soon.

P.s.2... Yes, I like bosses dropping like flies too, but meh, it's discouraging when so many people can do it, and I can not, unless I want to pay for it, or wait ages to merchant for it. =x (don't normally have time to run nirvy's, etc.)

Also... yes...

If it's TL then DR (fixing it or trying too)

KingJoel - Raging Tide

APS ruined the PvE aspect. APS Can go back to what ever hole it came out of

Okeano - Harshlands

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

TL;DR

Umm ppl usually sum it up to a tl;dr version... you don't just tl;dr your own thread then end it there. b:embarrass That's like:

stuff stuff stuf
stuff stuff stuf
stuff stuff stuf
stuff stuff stuf
stuff stuff stuf
this post is dumb

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

the only reason not to take a veno, especially if the squad doesnt take a cleric is because the entire squad sucks at math.

and dragonflame packs failed hard, definitely not something to invest in. your problem isnt APS, its your lack of luck, and bad merchanting.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Umm ppl usually sum it up to a tl;dr version... you don't just tl;dr your own thread then end it there. b:embarrass That's like:

:$ Lol I thought it meant ''too long; don't read"

I guess not, but anyways thanks for the laugh. Even if it wasn't meant to be a funny. =x

EDIT:!!!

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

the only reason not to take a veno, especially if the squad doesnt take a cleric is because the entire squad sucks at math.

and dragonflame packs failed hard, definitely not something to invest in. your problem isnt APS, its your lack of luck, and bad merchanting.

Actually I merchant things just fine, I just got impatient and opened up the packs (tiger packs) myself. QQ

oxytorch

One class i haven't tried is a BM . Im very reluctant to even start one now , as I know one day i will need to get that 5.0 or be shunted from just about all end game activity . No point cant be bothered . My barb i still play sometimes , but probably wont go much further for the same reasons . I dont have an Assasin , stuff 'em . And my archer is now my shop .

YuniBlood - Raging Tide

Nope not any more. I have decided to go my own path, axe and sword. I hate fist, and will only use it if neccessary, but i will try to avoid using it. Beside i hope seeker will change aps if not, oh well can t force the aps users to invite a non ap user. I rather play my way then to bend over for over people. So this thread if useless, just play the way you want b:chuckleb:chuckle

hahahahahahah1

Not usually I see bms complaining about aps. I doubt you would be complaining if you got lucky with the packs.

MageFizban - Lost City

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Wall of text that I don't feel like quoting verbatim.

How are you still so undergeared? You were playing way back before I quit DW. I'd think you'd at least be able to farm TT100 fists by now. It's been about a year maybe? Gorenox Vanity. . .

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

hahahahahahah1 wrote: »

Not usually I see bms complaining about aps. I doubt you would be complaining if you got lucky with the packs.

To be honest, yes you are probably right I would not be complaining about it, had I gotten lucky with the packs. =x

Though that is not the case, argo I am here. =x


EDIT:!

How are you still so undergeared? You were playing way back before I quit DW. I'd think you'd at least be able to farm TT100 fists by now. It's been about a year maybe? Gorenox Vanity. . .

Rofl. ^^

Lol, Just haven't had the time to run the bigger instances that give more cash/the instances have become ridiculously hard to farm for a lot of random squads to actually complete in my time frame. (rarely see squads when I am actually able to get on)

Vorhs - Lost City

How it affected my gameplay?
I always loved hh and nirvana runs, but i got bored of being refused cause im a wizard.
And since there are no other effective ways to gain money while having fun without cash shopping i quit the game.

I just log in time to time for some random pvp.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Aps made nirvana weapons/gear possible, made TT99 gear possible.

Aps gives non cash shoppers a chance to keep up with the big spenders.



Venos should have no problems finding a squad, anyone able to do basic math will realize how useful amp is. Not to mention pet DD, purge on second boss, and demon ironwood. Throw in a good veno that likes to spam tangling mire and extreme poison and you got my new best friend.

Mages? You were never good at PvE, you were only taken in the (distant) past because back then there were no cheap oraces/hypers and being lvl 100 meant you were one of the very few people who could go to an instance. Now? Even without 5.0 good luck getting into a squad with a million +10 R8 archers running around. You knew then when you picked your class.


Everyone complains now, but when a nirvana takes 45 minutes to run on a good day, good luck when raptures suddenly cost 10mil and uncannys cost 3-4mil. Good luck when TT99 golds are only obtainable by chipping them and the greens cost around 10mil for a leg green.

Okeano - Harshlands

Vorhs - Lost City wrote: »

How it affected my gameplay?
I always loved hh and nirvana runs, but i got bored of being refused cause im a wizard.
And since there are no other effective ways to gain money while having fun without cash shopping i quit the game.

I just log in time to time for some random pvp.

Wasn't Archer preferred over Wiz before interval anyways? I remember when my first BM was still using pole only, and we hated taking Wiz to TTs.

Hl/ - Harshlands24

Vorhs - Lost City wrote: »

How it affected my gameplay?
I always loved hh and nirvana runs, but i got bored of being refused cause im a wizard.
And since there are no other effective ways to gain money while having fun without cash shopping i quit the game.

I just log in time to time for some random pvp.

Being a Psychic, and a level 80 Psychic at that, I was excited to start finally doing FC runs. I finally felt I was ready to actually go out and do something, considering that my barb was only wanted for a buff machine and a pull monkey. I retired him a year ago.

I found it difficult from level 60-80 to find a TT squad...in fact, with Rank out now, there are barely any squads out. I was usually turned down, so even getting the mats for my decent gear was long and harrowingly painful.

Since I hit 80, I have gone on *A* FC run. Just one. Every other time I WC for a group, I do get accepted from time to time, BUT....I'm quickly replaced by---


You guessed it. A Blademaster. Or an Assassin. Or a Clawcher.

I'm a PSYCHIC, people! I have more AoE's than you can shake a stick at, and they are FANTASTIC crowd control! I like like a truck, can even take a good amount of shots since I'm a Hybrid build, and I have an AoE heal! So why am I constantly being kicked from squad to make room for an idiot with fists who spams the auto-attack button?

It's honestly due to laziness! People don't want to take the time to defeat bosses anymore. But that's what MMO's are supposed to be about--- Time investment = profit
Imo, lazy people shouldn't deserve an easy road, but they get it anyway with APS. Now bosses that took 40 minutes to defeat, take 10...and that defeats the whole purpose of there being a boss there in the first place. You're better off just putting a brick wall there....at least APS doesn't give you the power to walk through them. -.-

I used to love running Nirvana as a barb....but what's the damn point anymore? All we are now is a vending machine for an HP buff...and Psychics? We're one of the most overlooked classes in the entire game.

It's like I don't even recognize this game anymore...you have to roll a Sin or a BM to make profit these days....it's pathetic.

Okeano - Harshlands

Hl/ - Harshlands wrote: »

Since I hit 80, I have gone on *A* FC run. Just one. Every other time I WC for a group, I do get accepted from time to time, BUT....I'm quickly replaced by---


You guessed it. A Blademaster. Or an Assassin. Or a Clawcher.

I'm a PSYCHIC, people! I have more AoE's than you can shake a stick at, and they are FANTASTIC crowd control! I like like a truck, can even take a good amount of shots since I'm a Hybrid build, and I have an AoE heal! So why am I constantly being kicked from squad to make room for an idiot with fists who spams the auto-attack button?

Are you sure those times it wasn't because the squad already have enough AoE DD's or that you were too low? DPS at 80 doesn't make much of a difference anyways. It might have been just them having enough AoE DD already. BM is pretty much a must in FC for crowd control and buff. Sins do make it *slight* faster with DPS and soloing shades, but a lot of the lower 8X Sins I came across on my Cleric can't solo shades anyways. FC isn't Nirvana or TT, where 95% of the time is spent on bosses. You are either exaggerating or misunderstanding. No one in their right mind at 8X is going to replace a Psy with a Sin if there's already a Sin in the squad.

Hl/ - Harshlands24

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Are you sure those times it wasn't because the squad already have enough AoE DD's or that you were too low? DPS at 80 doesn't make much of a difference anyways. It might have been just them having enough AoE DD already. BM is pretty much a must in FC for crowd control and buff. Sins do make it *slight* faster with DPS and soloing shades, but a lot of the lower 8X Sins I came across on my Cleric can't solo shades anyways. FC isn't Nirvana or TT, where 95% of the time is spent on bosses. You are either exaggerating or misunderstanding. No one in their right mind at 8X is going to replace a Psy with a Sin if there's already a Sin in the squad.

Actually, I'm 85. "Ever since I hit 80" is talking about the period of time where from when I hot level 80, to now.

Typically these days in HL, your squad makes of up 1-2 BM's, 1 Barb, 1-2 Clerics, or 1-2 Sins. You'll barely see Venomancers, Psychics, Wizards, or Archers in 80+ FC's anymore.

Usually, because I'm 85, I get booted and replaced right after opening, which is rather annoying. I spent the time and coin getting to the instance, and you take advantage of my level.



....this is fine by me, because I usually wipe the squad right after they kick. b:bye

Okeano - Harshlands

Hl/ - Harshlands wrote: »

Typically these days in HL, your squad makes of up 1-2 BM's, 1 Barb, 1-2 Clerics, or 1-2 Sins. You'll barely see Venomancers, Psychics, Wizards, or Archers in 80+ FC's anymore.

Uhh that squad takes 3 times as long to kill each pull, not to mention it leaves a LOT of time for f**k up in the exp room pull (new BMs these day can't even read/understand the skill descriptions on marrows so don't count on them to coordinate stun). That is not your typical 8X FC squad.

oxytorch

Hl/ - Harshlands wrote: »

....this is fine by me, because I usually wipe the squad right after they kick. b:bye

LOL , good on you !! they deserve it for doing that LOL b:chuckle b:chuckle

WnbTank - Archosaur

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Everyone complains now, but when a nirvana takes 45 minutes to run on a good day, good luck when raptures suddenly cost 10mil and uncannys cost 3-4mil. Good luck when TT99 golds are only obtainable by chipping them and the greens cost around 10mil for a leg green.

Welcome to archosaur. Well uncannys ~700k, raptures ~2m, green leg mats ~5m, I dont want to know what ppl ask for illusion springs... I remember when I got offered 20m for one, kinda, yeah. Anybody who expects to farm their TT99 gold mats is nuts so we are kinda close to the situation you described! It`s not as fun as it sounds.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

How has APS effected me?

It's about 1/3 of the reason I quit.

This game being run by Communists in China who could care less about what we think, want, or need, was a huge majority of why I quit, but they do listen, so I'll list it as another 1/3; this includes the lack of fixes for obvious problems like rubberbanding, glitches that get exploited since open beta, the lack of moderation on WC, etc.

The complete lack of skill in the playerbase, moron squads, moron players, people who really don't have a freaking clue who think they are the be-all end-all of their class, the squad, and the game, and the viciousness of the community, is the last 1/3 of the reason I left.

And Ironically, that viciousness is part of why I'm still on the forums. Can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Plus, you know, I wanna watch what happens, even though my characters are all parked, collecting dust. I played PWI for a solid year, starting when Open Beta was still going on, took a good long break, and came back. When I left, people knew how to play. When I came back, oracles, hypers, BH, and FCC had pretty much ruined that.

Ninnuam - Sanctuary

I rolled an archer. Not to mention that killing stuff (especially thanks for dirt cheap r8) in TW is a very pleasant change after being a cata cleric for 2 years.

Firefeng - Dreamweaver

How has the APS craze affected me?

When I started playing, all DDs were second-class citizens, and I had an 80 Fist BM (that could also use Calas) that was the bottom of the rung in terms of DDing ability. Clerics, Barbs, and Venos reigned with supreme arrogance over the instances they ran, and I literally had to beg to join TT runs on my BM. I had it easier than most, too, since my sister was a Veno with a Herc.

Flash forward to the TB expansion. I love my BM, but I'm sick of being treated like trash. I start an Assassin out of morbid curiosity. It's terrible the first ~40 levels, but I soldier on. It grows on me. The second I start consistently placing first in the 60-80 PQ, I sell all my BM's gear and use the proceeds to properly equip my Sin. It's been my main ever since, even though I've taken several breaks from the game since then.

Once I hit 100, and start farming Nirvy for my daggers/legs, and obtain them, I'll be a 5 APS Sin. (Would be sooner, but I can't field the coin for a -int tome.) There will be nobody but other Sins who can touch my damage. I won't have to beg to be invited for instances anymore--Hell, if I can't find an FC squad but I have an itch to do one, I just go solo up to heads, now.

At the same time, I'm dreading having to do Deltas for Cultis/BH at 100 just because a Sin is nothing more than a glorified chest-farmer in there...in that regard, I do miss my BM a bit.

Assuming I don't get too caught up with a Seeker when Genesis comes out, as soon as my Sin is "finished" at 100/101, I'll be more than happy to take up my BM again. I like the name of that toon ("Phoenix") better than "Firefeng" anyway.

So, long story short, the APS craze has affected me by changing me from a second-class denizen of Perfect World into a first-class DD that can laugh at the short memories of caster classes and tanks with impunity. It has not, however, affected me so greatly that I won't take friends along for Nirvies and even let them use weapons other than fists if they so desire. I play this game to have fun with friends, and my (still mediocre) damage only means that me and my friends reach our goals sooner and less painfully.

Templar - Sanctuary

I get more chi when thay tickle me b:chuckle

Ursa - Dreamweaver

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Aps made nirvana weapons/gear possible, made TT99 gear possible.

Aps gives non cash shoppers a chance to keep up with the big spenders.

bull sh.it. Non cash shopper without life with 10-14h non stop ingame running instances and farm stuff has a slight chance to keep up with the moderate spenders.

Venos should have no problems finding a squad, anyone able to do basic math will realize how useful amp is. Not to mention pet DD, purge on second boss, and demon ironwood. Throw in a good veno that likes to spam tangling mire and extreme poison and you got my new best friend.

except a lot of venos, that were rich enough before 5 aps from farming TT to no end rolled 5 aps chars (BMs/Sins). It's just easier/faster than whatever a herc veno can do.

Mages? You were never good at PvE

uhm, that's just dumb.

..., you were only taken in the (distant) past because back then there were no cheap oraces/hypers and being lvl 100 meant you were one of the very few people who could go to an instance.

dumb again...really... Archer's DPS was higher, but not by much. PPL just preferred them because that was the trend and at lowbie lvls they had higher survival than wizards. I know wizards that farmed TT as much as they wanted to. Yeah, in general a lone ranger complained about not being taken to squads, but unless the squad was made of arrogant idiots there was always a place for a wiz.

Now? Even without 5.0 good luck getting into a squad with a million +10 R8 archers running around. You knew then when you picked your class.

4-5 aps makes +10 r8 bow dmg still a joke. So if someone cares about DD, won't take a R8 bow archer in squad anyway. Rather a Lunar bow one since it has a chance to purge bosses that self buff.

Everyone complains now, but when a nirvana takes 45 minutes to run on a good day, good luck when raptures suddenly cost 10mil and uncannys cost 3-4mil. Good luck when TT99 golds are only obtainable by chipping them and the greens cost around 10mil for a leg green.

really? wow. No **** einstein, ppl will have to work again together to achieve something. You know, that thing that DEFINES a MMO ??

I don't care what they nerf or what they dont. I have a 5 aps BM and a R8 wiz, Whatever boat they try to shake I have another one to be safe, but no-fact-rage like the one above doesn't help anyone.

Firefeng - Dreamweaver

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

bull sh.it. Non cash shopper without life with 10-14h non stop ingame running instances and farm stuff has a slight chance to keep up with the moderate spenders.

Yeah, that's comforting.

except a lot of caster classes, that were rich enough before 5 aps from farming TT to no end rolled 5 aps chars (BMs/Sins). It's just easier/faster than whatever a herc veno can do.

Fixed that for you. Bear in mind that every caster class but Wizard (and now Psy) has always had it fairly easy, when it came to events that didn't involve PVP anyway. Mass PVP events have almost always been a Wizzie's/Archer's/Psy's game.

really? wow. No **** einstein, ppl will have to work again together to achieve something. You know, that thing that DEFINES a MMO ??

People have to work together now, too. Unless you're one of a handful of Sins on each server that can solo Nirvana, anyway. People's problems aren't with 5 aps, it's with endgame content that favors 5 aps over other caster classes.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Aps "craze" (funny name for something that was always there...) has not affected me in any way because when my old BM hit 99, I had TM69, Lunar claws, TT99 full set for -0.2 int (wrists and LA + HA set bonus) which was pretty much the max -int back then.

I digress. When the first people hit 90+ on the server I played, wizards were able to get some squads. When they hit 99 and discovered high aps (it was supposedly "found" by full LA BM with TT99 HA orns on our server, Chinese found it earlier though), I don't remember many 99+ people taking wizards in their squads. I guess it was different on PWI...

I must say that it kinda limits my chances of getting in a squad in PWI due to not having any -int gear but that's more of my choice than a limit set by someone else.

Kaste - Sanctuary

1 very important thing. High APS always was in the game, it is now just easier to obtain.

I'll make it short. Well, some good things and some bad ones too:

good:

- instances are done quicker (FBs, TTs, FCC. . .)
- easier to solo things you couldn't before
-

bad:

- fail/boring PvP (demon APS sin > sage CoD Sin? Are you ****ing kidding me?)
- general weapon choice fail = booooooring gameplay (APS cleric, veno, barb, archer)
- fail skills (BM with fist only. . .)
- no 5 APS BM/Sin at level 100 = fail? (CS hooray. . .not.)
- OPness of some classes
- Barbs got useless at endgame
- Magic classes got useless (except for PvP, BIDS FTW!)
-

Can't think of more atm.

Ursa - Dreamweaver

Firefeng - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yeah, that's comforting.




Fixed that for you. Bear in mind that every caster class but Wizard (and now Psy) has always had it fairly easy, when it came to events that didn't involve PVP anyway. Mass PVP events have almost always been a Wizzie's/Archer's/Psy's game.



People have to work together now, too. Unless you're one of a handful of Sins on each server that can solo Nirvana, anyway. People's problems aren't with 5 aps, it's with endgame content that favors 5 aps over other caster classes.

no, ppl don't need to work together now for anything.
I can solo/duo anything in this game (not WB and RB) with a cleric.
How's that Team work oriented? I pay ppl to open nirvanas that I run with another SIN/BM just to make it faster. EVERYTHING can be soloed in this game, the only thing you need other ppl for are buffs.

BlaZinBoy - Heavens Tear

Here is what I notice with people with 5.0 gear.

1.their toons are ugly as hell.(proves they have no social life and are crying out)

2.most die alot and faster thinking they are awesome.(lack of skill knowledge using pots or genies effectively or just plain out have no damn commonsense)


Saw a cashed out bm on our server with a cleric(prob dual boxing) killing the wb over on shattered jade shore.

Carebear_xD - Heavens Tear

APS have never effected me in anyway, despite having a pure VIT barbian, multi-path blademaster (with some VIT) and an LA/VIT melee venomancer, VIT/DEX assassin, pure mag wizard, cleric and psychic.

Do I find that build worth it whether I am loaded with coins or gold? No, its not the same, I won't touch -int gears. I am not changing my build for APS either.

However, it affected most people. APS maybe able to steal aggro, but it have never affected survivability.

It has made it more difficult to let barbs keep aggro from high APS BMs and assassins. So most likely BM or assasssins end up tanking anyway, that's if they have about 7k HP that is. Archers become weaker in terms of DD, because of decides' ability to decrease HP, unless if archers' STA have a stronger debuff. Some go with fist/claw, but they can't tank either, pretty much no use until they have +6 gears or better.

This also only applies to 99 or above. However, at 44+ BMs and assassins already can permaspark. Let alone only 3 classes with APS already took down other classes for only nirvana squads.

AlysonRose - Heavens Tear

On increasingly frequent occasions I'll respond to a WC for a BH squad that wants unspecified or DDs in particular and get told "We have aps so gtfo."

I can't help lmao when they turn down a char, any char, and then continue to WC for the next 10-15 minutes (which costs them money) just so they can...save time on the run? Particularly a psy unless they already have one, or if they have one of those weirdos that went demon b:sad

Psy's are about as unplayed as wiz, so I try to give people a good impression of them. I feel that with 5.0, since barbs and clerics have become optional/buff monkeys, its generally a good idea not to act like a total noob in squads if you want to (as a non aps char) get into more squads. Moreso when you are well geared like myself, you don't want people to take one look at your gear and think "oh look a cs noob" as they don't know I've been around since June 2009 and how much grinding and saving went into it.

The point being that no one cares if you know how to play as long as you can spam auto attack and spark. If you can't, at least at high levels, you kinda feel like you already have 2 strikes against you.

If an aps takes aggro and dies, repeatedly, or causes a wipe, no one cares too much because they are just happy to have them in squad. If I accidently hit Soul of silence in BH metal instead of Vigor, or fall off in sot, I feel like I just crapped in a pool full of people and hope no one says anything.

Personally I'm not a fan of aps or -chan at all. Both of them are pretty much only there so that you can artificially break what little balance the game has. If you NEED them to play your class effectively, to the point that you have gear 20+ lvs under you with only those adds and nothing else useful, then I hope its at least more fun for you to play.

If there were more reasonable caps on aps and -chan then cool. They would go from being mandatory to a nice perk of certain gears. Or they could go the other way. Let venos stack up to 30mps running speed, clerics can have enough mp regen to be perma shelled while bbing and give barbs gear that adds to their threat lv and enough hp regen to be immortal.

Perhaps the corollary to everyones love of the speed aps lends to runs is that typically its over before anyone really says anything. No one gets to know their squad, its all purely mechanical. I usually only say hi when invited and ty when its over. Seems pretty sad that a GAME with so many people that is ostensibly played for FUN is being led around by the aps toons and told that their way is the only way this game should ever be played again.