Why "Nerf" 5aps?

Shulkie - Dreamweaver

not sure there is an easy fix for this problem. -int gear was always hard to get in quantity in the past, hence there was some degree of balance (and fist/claw was not the path of choice for most). now it is relatively easy (if costly) to get -int

not everyone can afford 5aps - nerfing the dungeons is not the answer - look what happened when they made TT harder - all it means is that you need to already have the gear to be able to farm the instance to get the gear.

not sure if it is possible with the current game mechanics but perhaps there is a way to scale the bosses resistance - ie if physical dps is over a set amount, the boss buffs to increase pdef, if magic dps is over a set amount the boss buffs to incrase mdef. This would mean bosses might take longer to kill if the squad isnt a balance of melee and magic classes. dunno, just a random thought... comments/flames?

edit: thought on barbs and agro - maybe give barbs claw/fist mastery skill (always thought it strange they don't have it anyway - fists not technically blades are they b:surrender) and allow them to use their skills while wearing fists. they would of course be liable to the same pvp damage reduction but it would allow them to hit as often as aps DDs, and still use skills thus at least having a chance of retaining agro.

Evict - Heavens Tear

mah001 wrote: »

While you argue here and wasting your time, In PWE office they dont give a **** of what you suggest and what you think. Do you think they would remove the greatest source of paycheck?

Actually, in the PWE office they're coding some new OP items that > 5.0 and create a new source for their paychecks, ijs.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Actually, in the PWE office they're coding some new OP items that > 5.0 and create a new source for their paychecks, ijs.

Actually, they're too busy rolling around in the money from the General Summers Sale

tweakz

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

Side notes:

The new gear from the expansion is going to be for guild bases, and from what I hear, will only be used in guild bases, sort of as a mega defence.

And more dps than 5aps? -int chars are killing bosses that normally take 5-10minutes in just seconds, and finishing 2hour instances in 10minutes.
To increase the dps of all classes will mean that instances will go by even faster, which means that PWI will do to Nirvana what they did to 3-3; they're going to increase the difficulty.
What does increasing the difficulty mean? People with this new "mega gear" you want people to have access to, will still be able to complete the instances with relative ease. But the rest of us who dont spend hundreds of dollars every week won't have a shot in hell of getting any instances done..

This from a poor player raced to level point of view. It bothers me that people place such times on instances. Use to be that people said it took 4 hours to complete an unwined C2D59 while I was solo clearing it in under an hour at lvl 74.Unwined 59 was huge fun and profit but it took a while to convince people it didn't take 4 hours because of people like you spreading BS. I could also have easily made a 5aps character as a non cash shopper. I prefer casters.

If you can't get anything done, you might want to evaluate yourself rather than point the finger.

The servers aren't loaded with 5aps characters. They're just the ones that need the WC's to find each other the most.

Tamias - Archosaur

Shulkie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

not sure there is an easy fix for this problem. -int gear was always hard to get in quantity in the past, hence there was some degree of balance (and fist/claw was not the path of choice for most). now it is relatively easy (if costly) to get -int

not everyone can afford 5aps - nerfing the dungeons is not the answer - look what happened when they made TT harder - all it means is that you need to already have the gear to be able to farm the instance to get the gear.

not sure if it is possible with the current game mechanics but perhaps there is a way to scale the bosses resistance - ie if physical dps is over a set amount, the boss buffs to increase pdef, if magic dps is over a set amount the boss buffs to incrase mdef. This would mean bosses might take longer to kill if the squad isnt a balance of melee and magic classes. dunno, just a random thought... comments/flames?

edit: thought on barbs and agro - maybe give barbs claw/fist mastery skill (always thought it strange they don't have it anyway - fists not technically blades are they b:surrender) and allow them to use their skills while wearing fists. they would of course be liable to the same pvp damage reduction but it would allow them to hit as often as aps DDs, and still use skills thus at least having a chance of retaining agro.

Would this be a purgeable "smart buff"? If so it would still have a problem with the APS vers Nuke Mag DD damage but this would increase the usefulness of a veno in a squad. The rumor is is that a boss will bramble itself, making it hilarious when a 5 APS comes up and gets deflect killed in 2 seconds b:chuckle But again rumors are rumors and until I see a boss smart buffs when he realizes he's getting fisted there doesn't seem to be much change for now.

As for barbs having claws, urgh TBH I don't want to see any more than I already see. I like my tanks with over 21k+ in the high levels b:dirty As a cleric I dont like healing squishy 5 APS fishies or LA fist BMs (even HA fist BMs who are in no way statted for any vit are a bit squishie on most bosses that people like APS on to down faster.) Ive seen my in-game husband tank over 4/5 APS but he still throws a fit over how often he looses aggro b:surrender

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Assuming they don't take the '**** off the cashshoppers' option and just change the cap on aps to, say, 2...

The next obvious change would be to put a cooldown on spark. A -int DD could still spark often and would still do a lot of damage, but they wouldn't be permanently in spark and would actually take damage; meaning you'd end at least a cleric and possibly a real tank.

Next you could add bosses that have debuffs - there's already a "Reduce attack rate" debuff, adding a "Maximum attack rate reduced" shouldn't be too hard, and those bosses would then as a minimum want purging clerics.

Heck - just adding some bosses that have huge pdef but low mdef would help!

Tamias - Archosaur

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Assuming they don't take the '**** off the cashshoppers' option and just change the cap on aps to, say, 2...

The next obvious change would be to put a cooldown on spark. A -int DD could still spark often and would still do a lot of damage, but they wouldn't be permanently in spark and would actually take damage; meaning you'd end at least a cleric and possibly a real tank.

Next you could add bosses that have debuffs - there's already a "Reduce attack rate" debuff, adding a "Maximum attack rate reduced" shouldn't be too hard, and those bosses would then as a minimum want purging clerics.

Heck - just adding some bosses that have huge pdef but low mdef would help!

Cooldown on Spark-the only QQ outside of APS for this one is for lame *** clerics like me who run out of MP pots in the middle of the run and triple spark just to get back a bit of mana roflmao

Maximum attack rate reduced- LAWL thats such a troll move. Steel already trolls barbs w/ 5 APS so why not be a jerk and put that in? Triple spark though does remove the reduced attack rate and the APS drop is almost nonexistent before they manage to spark the debuff off QQ. The channeling debuff is more of a pain but perhaps making the reduced attack rate just as painful would slow the efficiency.

huge p.def/low m.def- someone's pointed out that Nuk-like Mag DD would then become a problem as barbs would still have a problem holding aggro. If there's a higher p.def they could try this- having Flesh Ream's bleed damage multiply and stack with that multiplier though increased def type bosses. ( if bleed generates more hate than outright damage that it ><)

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

Tamias - Archosaur wrote: »

Cooldown on Spark-the only QQ outside of APS for this one is for lame *** clerics like me who run out of MP pots in the middle of the run and triple spark just to get back a bit of mana roflmao

Maximum attack rate reduced- LAWL thats such a troll move. Steel already trolls barbs w/ 5 APS so why not be a jerk and put that in? Triple spark though does remove the reduced attack rate and the APS drop is almost nonexistent before they manage to spark the debuff off QQ. The channeling debuff is more of a pain but perhaps making the reduced attack rate just as painful would slow the efficiency.

huge p.def/low m.def- someone's pointed out that Nuk-like Mag DD would then become a problem as barbs would still have a problem holding aggro. If there's a higher p.def they could try this- having Flesh Ream's bleed damage multiply and stack with that multiplier though increased def type bosses. ( if bleed generates more hate than outright damage that it ><)

they could make the debuff like soulburn: unable to be purified (trololol).
the huge pdef/low mdef could be used to force the mages get more defense so they can tank the bosses themselves; just like what happened with the bms/sins/archers.
it's not like we dont have wizards that can easily tank high level bosses.

wait, did i make suggestions that would imbalance the game in favor of the casters?
yeah, i dont care XD

Born_Free - Harshlands

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Boosting Mag user weapons to counter aps would kill PvP completely. 5.0 is pretty lame in PvP, compare to PvE.

I hate to bust the bubble, but APS is just as big a problem on our servers as it is on yours....imagine a BM being able to solo farm runs AND take out a barb with twice his HP.......
I do agree that Boosting MAG users would completely wipe out any chance someone like an Archer has on PvP. They would just be like....annihilated. (Unlike Sins, they can't stealth, you see....but still have the LA armor.)

The doublespark would be a good idea....if it didn't effect lazy MAG users who refuse to buy pots for instances.... (<--guilty.)

SHUSHUSHUSH THANOS! If you keep telling those darn clerics they can purify Soulburn, how the hell am I going to have them kill themselves from spamming purify?!
(Well, I don't use soulburn on PvP unless they're a 5aps character.).....but how is everybody else supposed to kill them?!


I'm sorry for the inconvenience, ladies and gentlemen........
but you're gonna have to ignore tweakz....I think he's still under the impression that APS isn't broken. There's no use trying to tell him that a majority of BM's and Assassins either already HAVE Aps, or are working towards it......and that an APS character can easily solo a boss without a squad.....and that they're absolutely overbearing in PvP.......that casters can't get squads not because we're lazy but because everybody would rather have APS toons than the rest of us.......and so on, and so forth. He'll simply dismiss you because he's an APS Venomancer.....

So that obviously means he knows everything about how not broken aps is. He's also not a cashshoper, and understands how it feels to have empty pockets. And Thanos is actually a cow, trained to type on the computer.
^that was sarcasm, for those of you slower than others.

I think we can all pretty much agree though, nurfing the instances and giving barbs an aggro boost isn't going to help (and hasn't), nor will raising the defense of bosses in instances. I think we all also realize that PWI is definitely going to hesitate on this one......because it's one of their biggest moneymakers next to Packs and Rep Sales. I'm getting a friend to translate one of the Chinese threads now so I can get a confirmation on if they really are considering the nurf....because Google Translator isn't worth a **** and we all know it.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

I hate to bust the bubble, but APS is just as big a problem on our servers as it is on yours....imagine a BM being able to solo farm runs AND take out a barb with twice his HP.......
I do agree that Boosting MAG users would completely wipe out any chance someone like an Archer has on PvP. They would just be like....annihilated. (Unlike Sins, they can't stealth, you see....but still have the LA armor.)

The doublespark would be a good idea....if it didn't effect lazy MAG users who refuse to buy pots for instances.... (<--guilty.)

SHUSHUSHUSH THANOS! If you keep telling those darn clerics they can purify Soulburn, how the hell am I going to have them kill themselves from spamming purify?!
(Well, I don't use soulburn on PvP unless they're a 5aps character.).....but how is everybody else supposed to kill them?!


I'm sorry for the inconvenience, ladies and gentlemen........
but you're gonna have to ignore tweakz....I think he's still under the impression that APS isn't broken. There's no use trying to tell him that a majority of BM's and Assassins either already HAVE Aps, or are working towards it......and that an APS character can easily solo a boss without a squad.....and that they're absolutely overbearing in PvP.......that casters can't get squads not because we're lazy but because everybody would rather have APS toons than the rest of us.......and so on, and so forth. He'll simply dismiss you because he's an APS Venomancer.....

So that obviously means he knows everything about how not broken aps is. He's also not a cashshoper, and understands how it feels to have empty pockets. And Thanos is actually a cow, trained to type on the computer.
^that was sarcasm, for those of you slower than others.

I think we can all pretty much agree though, nurfing the instances and giving barbs an aggro boost isn't going to help (and hasn't), nor will raising the defense of bosses in instances. I think we all also realize that PWI is definitely going to hesitate on this one......because it's one of their biggest moneymakers next to Packs and Rep Sales. I'm getting a friend to translate one of the Chinese threads now so I can get a confirmation on if they really are considering the nurf....because Google Translator isn't worth a **** and we all know it.

http://www.timtim.com/public/images/drawings/large/2762_cowMermaid.gif b:cute

Jadsia - Lost City

mah001 wrote: »

While you argue here and wasting your time, In PWE office they dont give a **** of what you suggest and what you think. Do you think they would remove the greatest source of paycheck?

Why not? They've done it before and caused cash shoppers to rage quit. LOL. That's fun to watch. I do like the 90 to 120 second cooldown suggestion on all sparks. Let the APS ****** QQ about that. We can tell them to suck it up as that nerf would affect all classes and not just them.

Born_Free - Harshlands

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

http://www.timtim.com/public/images/drawings/large/2762_cowMermaid.gif b:cute

I take that back.....Thanos really is a cow. .-.
b:dirty Rawr.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

Why not? They've done it before and caused cash shoppers to rage quit. LOL. That's fun to watch. I do like the 90 to 120 second cooldown suggestion on all sparks. Let the APS ****** QQ about that. We can tell them to suck it up as that nerf would affect all classes and not just them.

And I'll tell people to suck it up when they start crying about how instances take too long b:chuckle

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

tweakz wrote: »

This from a poor player raced to level point of view.

Wrong.
This is from a "wizard who doesnt have the option of going -int like your veno does" point of view.

And I'm not poor, but a +12 rank 9 wep wouldnt out dps 5aps, so what does poor have to do with it?

And what does it matter if I hyper'd? Why do you and your stubborn generation seem to believe that killing the same mob for 3hours for 10% of an exp bar think that button mashing the same macro gives you an epiphany as to how to play your class better and understand the inner workings of the game more than anyone else?

The only argument I'll accept in terms of determining skill is;

Average PvE server skill < PvP server skill

And as for understanding how things work in PWI? That can found out by anybody at all, they just have to go out and do it themselves or just google it...

CandyCorn - Raging Tide

Can someone some this whole thread up for me. Not in the reading mood.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

CandyCorn - Raging Tide wrote: »

Can someone some this whole thread up for me. Not in the reading mood.

Basically tons of people want APS nerfed, they're discussing why it should be and ways to nerf it, and I'm just wishing they'd shut up.. I don't want APS nerfed, I'm gonna be 4.0 at 99 on my Blademaster

GTFO CASTER PEOPLEZ AND NON -INT GEARED MELEE CLASSES b:angry

CandyCorn - Raging Tide

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Basically tons of people want APS nerfed, they're discussing why it should be and ways to nerf it, and I'm just wishing they'd shut up.. I don't want APS nerfed, I'm gonna be 4.0 at 99 on my Blademaster

GTFO CASTER PEOPLEZ AND NON -INT GEARED MELEE CLASSES b:angry

ok ty


_____________________________________________________________________________

APs maybe or maybe not be nerfed. Solved your problem b:bye

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

CandyCorn - Raging Tide wrote: »

APs maybe or maybe not be nerfed. Solved your problem b:bye

I'm aware, I just like to poke fun at the people that want it nerfed

CandyCorn - Raging Tide

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm aware, I just like to poke fun at the people that want it nerfed

That was meant to everyone in general sorry xD b:laugh

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

CandyCorn - Raging Tide wrote: »

That was meant to everyone in general sorry xD b:laugh

I'd love for them to increase max APS to 7 instead of nerfing it just to see how much QQ there'd be :O

CandyCorn - Raging Tide

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'd love for them to increase max APS to 7 instead of nerfing it just to see how much QQ there'd be :O

Shhh that's a surprise when genesis comes out b:shutup

Jadsia - Lost City

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

And I'll tell people to suck it up when they start crying about how instances take too long b:chuckle

Most instances if not all were not meant to be doen in 10 minutes with just 2 or 3 specific classes. They are supposed to take up to a couple hours and be done with a squad of more than 2 or 3 classes. SO YEAH, they should nerf APS and suck it up if it takes longer.

Jadsia - Lost City

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Basically tons of people want APS nerfed, they're discussing why it should be and ways to nerf it, and I'm just wishing they'd shut up.. I don't want APS nerfed, I'm gonna be 4.0 at 99 on my Blademaster

GTFO CASTER PEOPLEZ AND NON -INT GEARED MELEE CLASSES b:angry

Yup and here's one who fears irrelevency if they actually balance the game.

Jadsia - Lost City

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm aware, I just like to poke fun at the people that want it nerfed

Best solution I can find is not nerfing 5.0 APS but eliminating the permaspark by making all spark cooldown times 90 - 120 seconds at least.

Maybe even making all spark levels (1 spark, 2 spark, 3 spark) go into cooldown at the same time whenever a spark is cast for the full 90 sec to 180 sec too.

That way they can say all classes were nerfed and not just the APS classes.

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

Sycorx - Harshlands

mah001 wrote: »

While you argue here and wasting your time, In PWE office they dont give a **** of what you suggest and what you think. Do you think they would remove the greatest source of paycheck?

Is it really their biggest money earner? I mean sure, people spend a few hundred $$$ to get 5aps, but after that they don't really need to CS anymore.

With the amount of money they can make farming Nirvana they don't need to CS, just farm. Also all this farming is pumping more and more raps n cannys into the economy, and what happens when there is a lot of one thing? The price of the raps and cannys goes down. So with the price of raps and cannys low, and the gold price so high, people (non 5aps) barely have to cash shop at all to get their endgame gear.

So in the long run, PWI is actually losing money from 5aps xD

Lyritha - Heavens Tear

your solution is complicated beyond all belief

Simple solution to fixing APS problem :

make bosses spawn physical immune adds spread apart and until those adds are dead the boss gains invincibility. Far less annoying than their seal solution, gives others something to do other than plain DD on boss, keeps squads from hiring BM and BM accessories only for runs. b:laugh

SQUISHKASS - Sanctuary

Lyritha - Heavens Tear wrote: »

your solution is complicated beyond all belief

Simple solution to fixing APS problem :

make bosses spawn physical immune adds spread apart and until those adds are dead the boss gains invincibility. Far less annoying than their seal solution, gives others something to do other than plain DD on boss, keeps squads from hiring BM and BM accessories only for runs. b:laugh

That's easily solved by popping an ele dmg pill + most melee classes already having some kind of ele buff (DBB, sin 79 skill, poison fang, etc) or just asking a wiz to buff the squad prior to starting instance.

WhiteVodoo - Raging Tide

pleas, just nerf the hell outta it and give us magic users our testicles back (ovaries fer you ladies) nerf, nerf like your lives depend on it, or just eliminate it completely, your choise, but somethin has ta be done before people just stop playin magic users, other than clerics that is...

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Well first of all, nice triple post.

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

Most instances if not all were not meant to be doen in 10 minutes with just 2 or 3 specific classes. They are supposed to take up to a couple hours and be done with a squad of more than 2 or 3 classes. SO YEAH, they should nerf APS and suck it up if it takes longer.

While I love an instance that's fun and takes while to run if I have a good squad that actually talks.. there's nothing that really supports what you state, that's simply your own opinion about instances. Generally a dungeon takes quite a while, but once you have -int gear (even a little, say.. -.15 or -.2) they get fast. Which.. as I've said before, is well under the nerfed cap of 3.33 that everyone wants. Even if they did nerf it your ideal instance run still won't happen unless the squad has no -int DDs.

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

Yup and here's one who fears irrelevency if they actually balance the game.

I've been around since the beginning of my server, I've adapted to genies, tideborn, and 5APS, and I'll continue to do so to every other change this game undergoes.

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

Best solution I can find is not nerfing 5.0 APS but eliminating the permaspark by making all spark cooldown times 90 - 120 seconds at least.

Maybe even making all spark levels (1 spark, 2 spark, 3 spark) go into cooldown at the same time whenever a spark is cast for the full 90 sec to 180 sec too.

That way they can say all classes were nerfed and not just the APS classes.

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

Eh.. the spark cooldown is a decent enough idea for limiting the DD of 0int geared players, but then that makes it harder on casters as well, and every other non -int geared player. Whatever the change is to fix 5APS it should interfere with the gameplay of non -int players... and making sparks share a cooldown? That only makes it worse. (And.. in PvP, a 90-120 second cooldown on spark will really **** A LOT of people over...)

Evict - Heavens Tear

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Eh.. the spark cooldown is a decent enough idea for limiting the DD of 0int geared players, but then that makes it harder on casters as well, and every other non -int geared player. Whatever the change is to fix 5APS it should interfere with the gameplay of non -int players... and making sparks share a cooldown? That only makes it worse. (And.. in PvP, a 90-120 second cooldown on spark will really **** A LOT of people over...)

Agree 101%. Have my babies.