Why "Nerf" 5aps?

Sycorx - Harshlands

Well lately there has been a lot of talk and QQ about 5aps and why it should be "nerfed."

Well my suggestion is rather than nerfing it or making it harder to obtain, why not just make the new gear coming out in Genesis completly -int free and more OP than 5aps gear?

Isn't that a much better and completely viable solution? Make the weapons for the magic classes out DPS current 5aps ones and make the armor much better. Also make new daggers and fists that way OP the 5aps weps. Then the 5aps people can simply get new gear instead of QQing about being nerfed. The ones that want to remain 5aps.... well let them, they will still be able to kill the bosses in Nirvana fast but as the new gear will most likely not come from nirvana, cannys and raps will have no real value and there will be no real point in being 5aps. Just make the bosses in the new instance (there will be one right?) stronger than the nirvana ones.

Problem solved b:victory

Magic classes will become useful DDs again and can stop QQing about being underpowered, 5aps people can simply get the new gear and be decent DDers too.

PS. Don't flame me b:surrender

Naivety - Harshlands

Sycorx - Harshlands wrote: »

Well lately there has been a lot of talk and QQ about 5aps and why it should be "nerfed."

Well my suggestion is rather than nerfing it or making it harder to obtain, why not just make the new gear coming out in Genesis completly -int free and more OP than 5aps gear?

Isn't that a much better and completely viable solution? Make the weapons for the magic classes out DPS current 5aps ones and make the armor much better. Also make new daggers and fists that way OP the 5aps weps. Then the 5aps people can simply get new gear instead of QQing about being nerfed. The ones that want to remain 5aps.... well let them, they will still be able to kill the bosses in Nirvana fast but as the new gear will most likely not come from nirvana, cannys and raps will have no real value and there will be no real point in being 5aps. Just make the bosses in the new instance (there will be one right?) stronger than the nirvana ones.

Problem solved b:victory

Magic classes will become useful DDs again and can stop QQing about being underpowered, 5aps people can simply get the new gear and be decent DDers too.

PS. Don't flame me b:surrender

The weapons need to by normal deal upto 5x the normal damage of a 5APS geared APS class. The problem with APS is that with 4/5 its permanently sparked. Always 5x the weapon damage. Its horrific.

Sycorx - Harshlands

Mhmm yea......

How about you just don't build chi when you are sparked or, like other people have suggested, have a cool down on sparks?

Knownase - Heavens Tear

New weapons in the expansion are rumored to be very great for mag users compare to melee, however, with rank 9 all over the place, 5.0 isn't the "main trend" anymore I think.

As for 5.0 APS, Devs in China stated that 5.0 should hopefully lose its "effectiveness" after the expansion with new content I suppose 5.0 won't be useful in. Its in that Q and A thread, too lazy to find it though....

Boosting Mag user weapons to counter aps would kill PvP completely. 5.0 is pretty lame in PvP, compare to PvE.

Look at rank 9 users killing squads with a simple aoe. b:shocked

Sycorx - Harshlands

Wouldn't kill pvp if the new gear wasn't hard to get so everyone had it.....

Bit like the r8 sale but more OP

WnbTank - Archosaur

Sycorx - Harshlands wrote: »

Wouldn't kill pvp if the new gear wasn't hard to get so everyone had it.....

Bit like the r8 sale but more OP

R8 sale, it costs 64M or so to get rep badges on my server to get 200k rep. That is cheap, too cheap for my taste, pretty much every DD class hurst nowdays, any 2 ranged class can duo me easily, I cant get close, I get killed before that. BMs and barbs are pretty much facked on PvP atm, easy R8 weps, jones blessings, yeah, we totally need new OP weapons for DDs. Easy to get? Yeah, it`s not hard enough to close range DDs these days, why not add 1shot barbs from range button too?

Derressh - Dreamweaver

I can't tell whether you're a troll, or really this ignorant.

If you made a magic sword that could match the DPS potential of a set of Striking Dragons, or Barrier Thorn - Nirvana, wizards would probably end up 1-shotting anything within a 10 mile radius of where they stand, since they would have to be able to do the damage of nearly 30 5aps hits with a single BIDS.

HealingBliss - Lost City

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

New weapons in the expansion are rumored to be very great for mag users compare to melee, however, with rank 9 all over the place, 5.0 isn't the "main trend" anymore I think.

As for 5.0 APS, Devs in China stated that 5.0 should hopefully lose its "effectiveness" after the expansion with new content I suppose 5.0 won't be useful in. Its in that Q and A thread, too lazy to find it though....

Boosting Mag user weapons to counter aps would kill PvP completely. 5.0 is pretty lame in PvP, compare to PvE.

Look at rank 9 users killing squads with a simple aoe. b:shocked

5.0 aps might not be op to you as a barb. But as an ep a 5.0 aps sins can make my hp disappear from stealth before i can domain. Thats op.

Jadsia - Lost City

I think if the devs are going to nerf anything it would be the permaspark. A longer cooldown would suffice. All sparks should have at least a 90 second or more cooldown.

Lett he QQ about that begin.

Naivety - Harshlands

HealingBliss - Lost City wrote: »

5.0 aps might not be op to you as a barb. But as an ep a 5.0 aps sins can make my hp disappear from stealth before i can domain. Thats op.

No, thats a oneshot or the ping of information and your reactions combining. They will leave stealth and unless they oneshot you, you DO get time to AD.... Assuming you hit it within 1/5th of a second.

Wish I had those reactions.

Sycorx - Harshlands

Derressh - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I can't tell whether you're a troll, or really this ignorant.

If you made a magic sword that could match the DPS potential of a set of Striking Dragons, or Barrier Thorn - Nirvana, wizards would probably end up 1-shotting anything within a 10 mile radius of where they stand, since they would have to be able to do the damage of nearly 30 5aps hits with a single BIDS.

Learn to read please b:surrender

I didn't just say better weps did I? I'm not quite sure you completely what i'm trying to say here. What I mean is pretty much improve all endgame gear but NOT the int stuff. So yes the wep would end up 1 shotting everyone if it had more DPS than 5aps BUT if you improve ALL endgame gear including armor, PvP would be similar to what it is now. Just better weps AND better armor. So I guess what i'm trying to say is if they improve ALL endgame gear and int gear keeps the same stats as it does now, then interval will become horribly underpowered.

Dellores - Dreamweaver

I actually think this game has it pretty good when it comes to PVP. If a BM gets in close and catches a wizzy in a stun lock, the BM wins. If a Wizzy kites and get distance successfully, Wizzy wins. There are various skills and apoth that helps with both, and its all a matter of timing from there. Of course we can't forget about assassins can we x.x But I think that's a different topic all together (regarding their movesets I would think).

Also lets not forget ranged DDs are still the kings of any kind of group PVP or TW. b:chuckle

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

to answer the title;

because I, the majority of PWI, cannot afford to get 5aps, and am therefore not allowed into 5aps squads. For the aforementioned reasons, nodody should be allowed to have 5aps and reap the benefits of spending $600 on a game.

Naivety - Harshlands

Sycorx - Harshlands wrote: »

Learn to read please b:surrender

I didn't just say better weps did I? I'm not quite sure you completely what i'm trying to say here. What I mean is pretty much improve all endgame gear but NOT the int stuff. So yes the wep would end up 1 shotting everyone if it had more DPS than 5aps BUT if you improve ALL endgame gear including armor, PvP would be similar to what it is now. Just better weps AND better armor. So I guess what i'm trying to say is if they improve ALL endgame gear and int gear keeps the same stats as it does now, then interval will become horribly underpowered.

To accomodate the armor the level cap would have to hit 150 very soon. Or the equality of level approximating the gear you will have will go out the window.
If it went like you say, thered be no point in levels, just make gear determine your "level".

Not saying its a bad idea however, its very vaguely how Final Fantasy II worked.

The proper II, not IV.

Sycorx - Harshlands

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

to answer the title;

because I, the majority of PWI, cannot afford to get 5aps, and am therefore not allowed into 5aps squads. For the aforementioned reasons, nodody should be allowed to have 5aps and reap the benefits of spending $600 on a game.

I didn't ask you to answer the title, read the post.

Trolls b:surrender

Shidoshi - Lost City

omg they already nerfed it for 7aps to 5 aps. if they nerf it anymore lot of people are going to leave.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Trolling huh? Fine, let me tell you exactly why you made one of the most un-thought out and un-researched posts I've seen in weeks.

Sycorx - Harshlands wrote: »

why not just make the new gear coming out in Genesis completly -int free and more OP than 5aps gear?

Gear that's more OP than -int? Yes, that is defintly what everybody wants, gear that makes the divide between cash shoppers and free players even deeper.

Sycorx - Harshlands wrote: »

Make the weapons for the magic classes out DPS current 5aps ones and make the armor much better.

I'm a wizard, and believe you me, you don't want me and the rest of my kind to have better dps than -int chars, it'll be the end of the world.

Sycorx - Harshlands wrote: »

Then the 5aps people can simply get new gear instead of QQing about being nerfed.

And they will (imo rightfully so) QQ about all of there work at -int gear not being worth anything. And yes yes, they can stick to their aps, but then they wont be the best. And seeing how they have already spent $600+ to become the best, "second best" simply isn't going to cut it.

Sycorx - Harshlands wrote: »

Just make the bosses in the new instance (there will be one right?) stronger than the nirvana ones.

There is going to be no new instance, this has been confirmed by those playing in PW CN where this update has been released already

Sycorx - Harshlands wrote: »

Problem solved b:victory

No, no it hasnt.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Side notes:

The new gear from the expansion is going to be for guild bases, and from what I hear, will only be used in guild bases, sort of as a mega defence.

And more dps than 5aps? -int chars are killing bosses that normally take 5-10minutes in just seconds, and finishing 2hour instances in 10minutes.
To increase the dps of all classes will mean that instances will go by even faster, which means that PWI will do to Nirvana what they did to 3-3; they're going to increase the difficulty.
What does increasing the difficulty mean? People with this new "mega gear" you want people to have access to, will still be able to complete the instances with relative ease. But the rest of us who dont spend hundreds of dollars every week won't have a shot in hell of getting any instances done.

So that's all I could think up right now, feel free to reply and give me more ideas to shoot down later.

Sekmeth - Raging Tide

I have a lot of friends with good R8 gear w/o being cash shopper, i'm sure some of them will get R9 in time too Probably free players will be able to get new gear too, just wont be as "instant" as for cash shop players, thanks to who we will have new expansions anyway.

Also 5 APS permanent spark is nice But the gap is not as big as you think with the new R8/R9 gear out. -int weapons are kinda limited, R8/R9 is not an option. If you consider magic weapons or bow have at least 2x the attack on weapons as fists/claws, refines add more than for fists/claws, R9 sets add a lot of attack levels and the fact magic weapons/bows have the advantage of great range for pvp and also better spike dmg potential 5 APS is kinda overhyped. Yes is great for boss killing, but not that great in pvp, can be countered easy with good strategy.

The class that really doesn't need high aps are sins, as they have really OP skills for pvp. They should make fists/claws BM only weapons, reduce max APS to 4 (that should reduce gap a bit, and close to 4 APS was old pw realistic APS anyway) and make stealth have a "debuff" 50-75% less dmg for sins for 3-4s after they drop out of stealth, should still be useful in pve but not that OP in pve.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

to solve the current "issue" there are the following ideas
1)nerf aps
+restore original balance
-QQ from 5aps
-longer instances etc, less people can afford nirvana etc
-profit

2)release stronger weapons for casters (at the right price), aggro skills for barbs
+casters,barbs,clerics are useful
+5aps can still solo farm
+profit for pwe
-pvp imbalance (not saying that sins are balanced,,,)

3)release rebirth-like instances with good drops
+casters,barbs,clerics are useful
+5aps can still solo farm
+profit for pwe if mobs are hard enough (cause DDs will need better armor, pots, charms etc)
-casters would be able to farm their own armors/weapons (if the drops of the instance can be used for that) so 5aps wont make a profit out of them

Dragono - Lost City

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

to solve the current "issue" there are the following ideas
1)nerf aps
+restore original balance
-QQ from 5aps
-longer instances etc, less people can afford nirvana etc
-profit

2)release stronger weapons for casters (at the right price), aggro skills for barbs
+casters,barbs,clerics are useful
+5aps can still solo farm
+profit for pwe
-pvp imbalance (not saying that sins are balanced,,,)

3)release rebirth-like instances with good drops
+casters,barbs,clerics are useful
+5aps can still solo farm
+profit for pwe if mobs are hard enough (cause DDs will need better armor, pots, charms etc)
-casters would be able to farm their own armors/weapons (if the drops of the instance can be used for that) so 5aps wont make a profit out of them

Hey thats good I like your argumentation
I know a lot of 100+ ppl that QQ about 5aps cause they dont find NV squads and so an.
I hear that Barbs are often only used for BH100 and GV and that they have BIG TROUBLE finding a NV squad without 5aps.
Its also unfair for casters,clers,barbs if you have a 3,33 aps Sin or BM in a Frost squad and they start to QQ that we Barbs cant hold agrro on bosses O_O
Its nearly impossible to hold aggro as a Barb with 3,33aps+ DD's >.<

I would choose 1) or 2) from ThanosQRT as a solution b:victory

Okeano - Harshlands

I'd personally like to see the removal of APS cap, then I'd have 10 APS sparked if I get a tome. Talk about effective farming.

Noskrad - Heavens Tear

Sycorx - Harshlands wrote: »

Well lately there has been a lot of talk and QQ about 5aps and why it should be "nerfed."

Well my suggestion is rather than nerfing it or making it harder to obtain, why not just make the new gear coming out in Genesis completly -int free and more OP than 5aps gear?

Isn't that a much better and completely viable solution? Make the weapons for the magic classes out DPS current 5aps ones and make the armor much better. Also make new daggers and fists that way OP the 5aps weps. Then the 5aps people can simply get new gear instead of QQing about being nerfed. The ones that want to remain 5aps.... well let them, they will still be able to kill the bosses in Nirvana fast but as the new gear will most likely not come from nirvana, cannys and raps will have no real value and there will be no real point in being 5aps. Just make the bosses in the new instance (there will be one right?) stronger than the nirvana ones.

Problem solved b:victory

Magic classes will become useful DDs again and can stop QQing about being underpowered, 5aps people can simply get the new gear and be decent DDers too.

PS. Don't flame me b:surrender

That's almost the same as nerfing 5 aps. Now I'll repeat the suggestion I made some weeks ago:

Why don't just change all instance's boss features, so that some of the bosses are physical dmg immune, or take... say 75% less physical dmg than normal, so mag classes still being useful DDers again?.

I hope ppl keep my suggestion in mind this time, since I really see it like the best solution for this!.

Just like our own characters are, some classes has higher magic defenses, and some others has lower mag def, but higher physical def, why don't make bosses like that too?, it would balance a lil more PvE, which I believe is the only side of the game that became unbalanced when tideborns arrived.

Evict - Heavens Tear

Noskrad - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That's almost the same as nerfing 5 aps. Now I'll repeat the suggestion I made some weeks ago:

Why don't just change all instance's boss features, so that some of the bosses are physical dmg immune, or take... say 75% less physical dmg than normal, so mag classes still being useful DDers again?.

I'm 2.2 aps and Sage. How would this change benefit me exactly?

Dakuken - Dreamweaver

Noskrad - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That's almost the same as nerfing 5 aps. Now I'll repeat the suggestion I made some weeks ago:

Why don't just change all instance's boss features, so that some of the bosses are physical dmg immune, or take... say 75% less physical dmg than normal, so mag classes still being useful DDers again?.

I hope ppl keep my suggestion in mind this time, since I really see it like the best solution for this!.

Just like our own characters are, some classes has higher magic defenses, and some others has lower mag def, but higher physical def, why don't make bosses like that too?, it would balance a lil more PvE, which I believe is the only side of the game that became unbalanced when tideborns arrived.

They shouldn't change the boss's resistances.. if they do that then NORMAL melee users (the ones without -int) would be at a major disadvantage, not to mention barb would have trouble holding aggro from magic users as well. One of the main issues 4/5APS characters is that barbs can't hold aggro from them, if you massively reduce the magic defense of bosses then you're simply making it even harder, not to mention drastically increasing the effectiveness of magic DD for no cost. This means a lot of very unhappy people..

CandyCorn - Raging Tide

Noskrad - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That's almost the same as nerfing 5 aps. Now I'll repeat the suggestion I made some weeks ago:

Why don't just change all instance's boss features, so that some of the bosses are physical dmg immune, or take... say 75% less physical dmg than normal, so mag classes still being useful DDers again?.

I hope ppl keep my suggestion in mind this time, since I really see it like the best solution for this!.

Just like our own characters are, some classes has higher magic defenses, and some others has lower mag def, but higher physical def, why don't make bosses like that too?, it would balance a lil more PvE, which I believe is the only side of the game that became unbalanced when tideborns arrived.

Maybe i missed something or didn't read a part of what you just said but thats horrible. Then NO melee classes expect barbs will find a Nirvana squad

Noskrad - Heavens Tear

Well... what I mean is to change just SOME of the bosses resistance per cave, for example, in BH39, farren could have lower mag def than he has, and higher physical resistance, so sins cannot steal agro form mag classes, and mag classes protaginize more, but then Calcid could have very high mag def, and same physical def he has atm, so aps chars protaginize again. Something like that would make both physical and magical DDers be equally needed in every squad for BHs/FBs, TT/ nirvana, etc... .

Now the barb's problem, I still thinking that it should be solved by improving their agro stealing skills, for example, apart of stealking the agro, they also could have a kind of cooldown, during which no one elese could steal agro, no matter how high thei're dmg dealing is, and when it ends, the barb has the possibility to use the agro stealing skill again. just an Idea.

Evict - Heavens Tear

Noskrad - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well... what I mean is to change just SOME of the bosses resistance per cave, for example, in BH39, farren could have lower mag def than he has, and higher physical resistance, so sins cannot steal agro form mag classes, and mag classes protaginize more, but then Calcid could have very high mag def, and same physical def he has atm, so aps chars protaginize again. Something like that would make both physical and magical DDers be equally needed in every squad for BHs/FBs, TT/ nirvana, etc... .

Lvl 50s won't have 5 aps until Genesis expansion, or sometime thereafter.

Noskrad - Heavens Tear

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Lvl 50s won't have 5 aps until Genesis expansion, or sometime thereafter.

...true. But well the BH39 cave was just an example, if the problem start from lvl 70 or 90, then developers could apply those changes in BH caves for those lvls only, and let the lower lvl instances as they are atm, that's not a problem.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Noskrad - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well... what I mean is to change just SOME of the bosses resistance per cave, for example, in BH39, farren could have lower mag def than he has, and higher physical resistance, so sins cannot steal agro form mag classes, and mag classes protaginize more, but then Calcid could have very high mag def, and same physical def he has atm, so aps chars protaginize again. Something like that would make both physical and magical DDers be equally needed in every squad for BHs/FBs, TT/ nirvana, etc... .

Now the barb's problem, I still thinking that it should be solved by improving their agro stealing skills, for example, apart of stealking the agro, they also could have a kind of cooldown, during which no one elese could steal agro, no matter how high thei're dmg dealing is, and when it ends, the barb has the possibility to use the agro stealing skill again. just an Idea.

Making it harder for melee classes to take aggro from magic classes in no way makes them more needed for an instance. Lowering the defense of bosses in any way really doesn't help the 5APS problem, nor does it make magic DDs more needed. I mean yeah they'll hit harder but so what? At 2/2.86 Base (below the cap people want) melee classes will still inflict more damage on bosses...

As for the barbs.. that's a poor solution, unless you want all instances to be extremely easy and have even more people who don't know their class or how to control their aggro.

mah001

While you argue here and wasting your time, In PWE office they dont give a **** of what you suggest and what you think. Do you think they would remove the greatest source of paycheck?