Sage Archers On the rise?

13

Comments

  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    i don't think any archer (tw capable) have an attack level of 30 anymore... there are ones that double that... and ones that triple that... i believe there are archers (notice the plural) that even quadruple that. off the top of my head an archer can have a max attack level of 135, 38-40% passive crit, and debuff bow all in the same build. debuff on the target helps... but keep in mind that crits are not always double damage... its especially noticeable as crit rates go up.

    and i am not even going to directly respond to the bm idiot anymore. its more then proven that sage bow mastery would give 3%+ more damage then demon bow mastery. for the sake of doing calculations in my head... i am going to assume 3% additional damage. given an archer with 70 attack levels... the 3% damage advantage will become a 5% damage advantage.
    now lets factor in fire arrow. sage fire arrow gives 10% more weapon damage then demon. given a end game bow that damage would come out to about 300 (average) more fire damage. with a 70 attack level... that 300 extra fire damage would become 500. 500 extra fire damage over a base of 20k damage would come out to 2.5% extra damage.
    so over all we'll be looking at over 7.5% (since i rounded down in all my calculations) extra damage purely from the difference between sage and demon damage modifications... assuming an attack level of 70 (which is more common then you would think in today's competitive archer world).

    now now... i wonder if fire arrow also works during barrages...

    actually your argueing with devoted's math on the dps there dude

    and unless your talking rank 9 attack level cap is 74, its worth noteing that def level cap on any class but bm's and sins is 48 with only jades(50 with g 14 orns 60 with nirvana), at rank 9 its possible to actually have more def levels than any class but a psy/sin can completely nullify

    now at +10-12 fully buffed wizzies will have 15-20k phys def and other arcanes would have 9-11k fully buffed

    so either your full up you your eyes in ****...or you pick low refined targets then wave your sage e-peen in this forum

    psssst computer game...its like this is a digital word MADE of math...but that would be silly
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Michael - Harshlands
    Michael - Harshlands Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Chi is a big thing in TW, every time you die you run out of it and having 1 spark-1.5 sparks before you reach the enemies depending on travel time means your almost ready to barrage when you reach the enemies and your genie will be fully prepared for defence, having your genie on cooldown just to get some chi is an unneeded risk, hell if you didnt have to cloud eruption to set your barrage you could actually have the genie energy to just AD the stun/seal when they channel it (giving you another free hit on the target normally a catapult (not puller), tower, crystal, bindpillar).

    I used to TW with sage archers and my dragon + their SharpTooth/Barrage (depending on chi amount) + veno parasitic would clear up whole cata squads (sometimes even the pullers if they only had 20k hp), if you were good you could catch people buffing (and wasting AD energy on chi skills) between towers thinking they are safe as they can see their base but a hard hitting squad moving fast can do alot of damage quickly and remember if you catch a push near their base and kill 60-70% of the supporting members you just wasted 2-3 mins of their time (more with guilds with poor communication) as they have to all meet up again rebuff and push together. Smarter people with AD ready would have survived but they all use cloud eruption to waste the genie energy and thus lack the ability to AD off the massive hits

    Demon archers are good as well but to be honest an archer is about his weapon not his culti (both sage archers I TWed with had nirvana bows one 1st recast +10 and one 2nd recast with adv purge +12 both have bloodvow only the +12 had awaken as we havent farmed the other awaken yet).
  • DaKillanator - Raging Tide
    DaKillanator - Raging Tide Posts: 2,965 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    7 pages and no math? C'mon archers, you got a reputation to uphold b:cute
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »
    7 pages and no math? C'mon archers, you got a reputation to uphold b:cute

    nooooo these are sage archers...they "feel" the game

    for math you go to the demon ones
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    i don't think any archer (tw capable) have an attack level of 30 anymore... there are ones that double that... and ones that triple that... i believe there are archers (notice the plural) that even quadruple that. off the top of my head an archer can have a max attack level of 135, 38-40% passive crit, and debuff bow all in the same build. debuff on the target helps... but keep in mind that crits are not always double damage... its especially noticeable as crit rates go up.

    Ok, but you were telling us that you use a +12 rank 8 bow. And, rank 8 bows do not add any attack levels. I believe most of those attack levels would be from rank 9 (or warsoul) gear?
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    and i am not even going to directly respond to the bm idiot anymore. its more then proven that sage bow mastery would give 3%+ more damage then demon bow mastery. for the sake of doing calculations in my head... i am going to assume 3% additional damage. given an archer with 70 attack levels... the 3% damage advantage will become a 5% damage advantage.

    now lets factor in fire arrow. sage fire arrow gives 10% more weapon damage then demon.

    To get the damage increase you find the ratio of the two damages. Since attack levels would be in the numerator and the denominator, they cancel, and you can ignore them. You would also assume identical equipment for this comparison, so you can ignore gear damage and just use their damage multipliers. The damage multiplier for an archer with 500 dexterity and demon bow mastery is 6.75, the damage multiplier if that archer had sage bow mastery is 6.9 (sage gives 2.2% dph increase here), but if you assume that fire defense and physical defense are identical and you include blazing arrow you can instead use 7.25 for demon and 7.5 for sage (sage gives 3.3% dph increase here).
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    10k pdef is really average for wizards, it's not very hard to obtain that with 3 pdef buffs. As for clerics, ~10k pdef might be where they stand with good gears, but that's what Plume Shell is for. You would seriously expect around 20k pdef on well geared wizards.

    Yes, and this has some implications for archer combat that I do not think I have ever seen anyone write about.
    DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »
    7 pages and no math? C'mon archers, you got a reputation to uphold b:cute

    Some of this probably deserves some math, but ... what math did you want us to be showing you?
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    now lets factor in fire arrow. sage fire arrow gives 10% more weapon damage then demon. given a end game bow that damage would come out to about 300 (average) more fire damage. with a 70 attack level... that 300 extra fire damage would become 500. 500 extra fire damage over a base of 20k damage would come out to 2.5% extra damage.
    so over all we'll be looking at over 7.5% (since i rounded down in all my calculations) extra damage purely from the difference between sage and demon damage modifications... assuming an attack level of 70 (which is more common then you would think in today's competitive archer world).

    now now... i wonder if fire arrow also works during barrages...

    This math is wonky, why factor in the attack level towards the fire damage and then compare that against the base attack without attack level? Attack level won't change the relative performance of two builds regardless of the differences in crit / mastery / or blazing damage.

    If the sage build does 3% more damage at attack level 0 it will also be 3% more damage at attack level 120.
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  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    actually your argueing with devoted's math on the dps there dude

    This was posted by your so called "devoted" in Perfect World International Forum > Class Discussion > Archer > Heaven vs Hell
    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

    - 90% damage mastery

    With hh90:
    Level 10 mastery: 5437-9094
    Sage mastery: 5834-9759
    Demon mastery: 5636-9427

    Low end: (5834-5636)/5636 = 3.51% extra damage compared to demon
    High end: (9759-9427)/9427 = 3.52% extra damage compared to demon

    It took me maybe a whole 2 minutes to find that info. So let me ask you this. Is it not enough to make yourself look like an idiot... that you have to make others look like an idiot too?

    Instead of regurgitating what otherwise should be decent info into ****... go out and actual test things out for a change. Other then the regurgitating ****... devoted and I seem to be in agreement on the 3%.

    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Ok, but you were telling us that you use a +12 rank 8 bow. And, rank 8 bows do not add any attack levels. I believe most of those attack levels would be from rank 9 (or warsoul) gear?

    i did say r8 is my former weapon. now i used it for show and to blend in with the archer masses.
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    This math is wonky, why factor in the attack level towards the fire damage and then compare that against the base attack without attack level? Attack level won't change the relative performance of two builds regardless of the differences in crit / mastery / or blazing damage.

    If the sage build does 3% more damage at attack level 0 it will also be 3% more damage at attack level 120.

    I may have jumped the gun there comparing buffed to base. So its overall a damage advantage of 4.5% (3 from phy and 1.5 from fire).
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Ursa - Dreamweaver
    Ursa - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,634 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Sage archers? Well, I only have 1 person to name: chezedude. Wherever u are mate, I salute u.
    TW is a lot of pew-pew and barrage for archers.
    Then Delta, which true, no one ever does these days, is all about Barrage.
    Sage Archers take 33% less dmg while in barrage? That alone is a big factor. First, you don't die that easily, second u get damage reduction.
    I've seen a lot of idiots in TW trying to kill an archer in barrage instead of interrupt. lol, I know, it's funny, but in the heat of the battle ppl stop thinking sometimes and just panic and apply the technique called " **** my pants" and start attacking without thinking.
    Honestly in my TW days on my wizard the most feared enemies were a few sage archers.
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  • Boogiepanda - Raging Tide
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide Posts: 4,682 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    BB cancels BoA dmg reduction. If you're not under BB in delta then....-prays to god-
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    This was posted by your so called "devoted" in Perfect World International Forum > Class Discussion > Archer > Heaven vs Hell

    Low end: (5834-5636)/5636 = 3.51% extra damage compared to demon
    High end: (9759-9427)/9427 = 3.52% extra damage compared to demon

    It took me maybe a whole 2 minutes to find that info. So let me ask you this. Is it not enough to make yourself look like an idiot... that you have to make others look like an idiot too?


    dps not dph dude learn your terms


    Instead of regurgitating what otherwise should be decent info into ****... go out and actual test things out for a change. Other then the regurgitating ****... devoted and I seem to be in agreement on the 3%.

    3% higher dph never argued that


    i did say r8 is my former weapon. now i used it for show and to blend in with the archer masses.

    the "hey i'm rich enough to out DD lower refine demon archers so sage must be win" arguement got boreing pages ago

    I may have jumped the gun there comparing buffed to base. So its overall a damage advantage of 4.5% (3 from phy and 1.5 from fire).

    i was talking unskilled DPS because outside of crits/3 spark DPH is going to suck on an equaly geared player

    again your spewing things everybody already knows like its some from the heavens trump card...again gets old

    made me point about chi gain and now i leave you to the demon archers
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »
    BB cancels BoA dmg reduction. If you're not under BB in delta then....-prays to god-

    i think everyone will be in agreement (except the idiot bm) that sage barrage is going to do more damage then demon barrage per round due to mastery and fire arrow (note my earlier barrage sarcasm/rhetorical question). as far as bh is concerned... its possible to do wave 1-3 without bb. with the current refine of weapons... no one is going to complain if the mobs die in 3 seconds or 2.5 seconds. so as you can see... while its true that sage's def bonus is useless... demon's int bonus isn't as great as it used to be. and as weapon gets better and better... the int from demon barrage will become less and less noticeable.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    i was talking unskilled DPS because outside of crits/3 spark DPH is going to suck on an equaly geared player

    again your spewing things everybody already knows like its some from the heavens trump card...again gets old

    made me point about chi gain and now i leave you to the demon archers

    unskilled dps (aka regular shot)... as you admited that you were talking about... its exactally 3% (possibly a bit less) advantage to sage. since unskilled... sage and demon archers have the same attack rate... only difference is demon have 1% extra crit. with the same attack rate... dph and dps are going to have the same ratios when averaged.

    in order for demon to get close to sage when it comes to average dps. quickshot would be a factor (only 50% effective). stun/sharp would also work... but when using skills... its essentially giving sage a free shot during casting.

    and i have yet seem a demon archer come to your aid... most of the posters seem to be more in agreement with me... then you.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    i did say r8 is my former weapon. now i used it for show and to blend in with the archer masses.

    Ok, so...
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    i don't think any archer (tw capable) have an attack level of 30 anymore...

    ...this would be the rhetorical technique some people call "hyperbole"?
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    unskilled dps (aka regular shot)... as you admited that you were talking about... its exactally 3% (possibly a bit less) advantage to sage. since unskilled... sage and demon archers have the same attack rate... only difference is demon have 1% extra crit. with the same attack rate... dph and dps are going to have the same ratios when averaged.

    Actually, increased crit chance contributes to your dps even when it does not contribute to your maximum dph. Demons get two passive +1% critical hit bonuses when using ranged weapons, and they also get two skills each of which gives them their temporary +10% critical bonus. All of this increases their damage per second (on average, when all other factors are equal, if you crit often, your total damage delivered over time will be higher than if you do not crit often). Additionally, they get two skills which increase their attack rate, which also increases their damage per second.
    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I've seen a lot of idiots in TW trying to kill an archer in barrage instead of interrupt. lol, I know, it's funny, but in the heat of the battle ppl stop thinking sometimes and just panic and apply the technique called " **** my pants" and start attacking without thinking.

    Trying to kill an archer in barrage might seem stupid but its not always a bad move: Stun and interrupt skills are not always available (for example the archer stun skill has a 15 second cooldown), and archers are not always susceptible to stuns. Also, a lot of archers have gone with the "damage out takes priority over survivability" build, and consequently are easy to kill.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    unskilled dps (aka regular shot)... as you admited that you were talking about... its exactally 3% (possibly a bit less) advantage to sage. since unskilled... sage and demon archers have the same attack rate... only difference is demon have 1% extra crit. with the same attack rate... dph and dps are going to have the same ratios when averaged.

    in order for demon to get close to sage when it comes to average dps. quickshot would be a factor (only 50% effective). stun/sharp would also work... but when using skills... its essentially giving sage a free shot during casting.

    and i have yet seem a demon archer come to your aid... most of the posters seem to be more in agreement with me... then you.

    demon masteries give 2% more crit leaving a *gasp* roughly 1.5% differance in unskilled dps

    you seem to assume the demon would stun before QSing stunign arrow has a rougly 2 second cast+chan vs a 6 second QS proc with a 3.5 second stun

    2+3.5=5.5 < 6 seconds

    if the archer does chose to open with stun well...12% more crit (counting masterys) > 3% more dph from mastery or 1.5-2% dps

    on barrage....yes sage will hit harder with a higher base (duh again) but again this is 3% base vs a 16.7% speed boost again demon kills faster

    for the last time...i am discussing equaly geared sage and demon archers vs equaly geared targets nobody gives a flying (fornicate under consent of the king) about you gear or how well you pve or kill +5 arcanes these are not have not and will never be workable arguements
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

    Actually, increased crit chance contributes to your dps even when it does not contribute to your maximum dph. Demons get two passive +1% critical hit bonuses when using ranged weapons, and they also get two skills each of which gives them their temporary +10% critical bonus. All of this increases their damage per second (on average, when all other factors are equal, if you crit often, your total damage delivered over time will be higher than if you do not crit often). Additionally, they get two skills which increase their attack rate, which also increases their damage per second.

    1% crit is essentially 1% increase in base attack when averaged overtime. demon's extra passive crit have to overcome the 3.5% sage base advantage... along with sage's 10% additional fire damage advantage (1.5% base advantage). hence in total sage would stand to have a 5% raw damage advantage over demon.... with demon's 2 crit advantage... that would bring the actual damage advantage down to 3%. So in order for the idiot's claim sage only have an 1% advantage when comes to unskilled dps... demon is going to need a passive crit advantage of 4 over sage. so unless there is some other demon passive crit skill that i am missing... the 3% stands.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    1% crit is essentially 1% increase in base attack when averaged overtime. demon's extra passive crit have to overcome the 3.5% sage base advantage... along with sage's 10% additional fire damage advantage (1.5% base advantage). hence in total sage would stand to have a 5% raw damage advantage over demon.... with demon's 2 crit advantage... that would bring the actual damage advantage down to 3%. So in order for the idiot's claim sage only have an 1% advantage when comes to unskilled dps... demon is going to need a passive crit advantage of 4 over sage. so unless there is some other demon passive crit skill that i am missing... the 3% stands.

    Argh... you are driving me to tears....

    So.. yes, if you have almost no critical hit chance, +1% crit is essentially a 1% increase in base DPS. How that compares to base attack depends on when it happens. If the crit bypasses someone's charm, that is almost like a 3x increase in base attack, where if the crit ticks someone's charm it's almost like a 0x increase in base attack, or worse, since it negates that future 3x possibility. Or, if bypassing charm is not possible (or unlikely) its back to something near a 1% increase in effective damage.

    But, if you already have a 50% critical hit chance, +1% crit is essentially a +0.67% increase in base dps.

    So, anyways, if you are talking purely passive benefits, on a 500 dexterity archer wearing +20% critical hit chance gear, facing an opponent with roughly equal physical defense and fire defense (which probably means a wizard, archer or assassin), the sage version of this archer has a DPH advantage of 7.5/7.25 = +3.45% and a DPS advantage of (750/725)*(1.45/1.47) = +2.04%

    But that's passive DPH and DPS, and they are different and that is a very narrow set of circumstances to compute them that precisely, and skills change things. Demon archer short term buffs can significantly increase their DPS. A sage archer competing with an equally geared demon archer on DPS grounds is going to lose, on average, if they are both trying for their maximum DPS, and if the situational issues do not change the ground rules.

    But things get complicated when you get into practical cases. You wind up having very fat markov chains to run through to get numbers that reflect outcomes on even simplified battles.

    Then again... I know of one PvE situation where my +5 TT99 green crossbow combined with my sage skills provides me with higher DPS than my +5 rank 8 bow. I have not compared it to a +12 full rank 9 demon archer -- I expect that my dps would be lower than that, but not by too much... (This is because of a factor of 2 damage reduction which I can avoid with my green crossbow.)

    But, anyways, for pure passive DPS for 500 dex archers with +20% crit gear and, with all other factors being equal, the sage DPS advantage would typically be something like 2%.

    But other factors are almost never equal, and a 500 dex archer with +20% crit gear can probably afford enough potions to not run out of mana, using demon quickshot. But the +2m range the sage gets is going to allow the sage to take some shots when the demon would have to wait a third of a second to get into range and maybe a part of another second to move into range of a different target. Or, maybe range will not be an issue.

    Anyways, from my point of view sage and demon are not better/worse except in specific situations -- instead, they are different. In fact, they somewhat complement each other and in some common situations a squad with both archer cultivations will do better than a squad with only one archer cultivation.

    And you should be able to see some of that situationalness here -- "pure passive damage" is a simplistic situation where a sage archer has a minor dph and dps advantage over an otherwise identical demon. Similarly, "DPS after quickshot proc" is a simplistic situation where a demon archer has a clear dps advantage over an otherwise identical sage.

    Because of their skills, Demons will often though not always have a ranged DPS advantage over sages (assuming they use those skills). Meanwhile, Sages will often though not always have the "first shot" advantage and they also get a slight dph advantage. Sages will have a slight DPS advantage with fists, but its nothing when compard to the advantages an assassin has.

    Its all so very situational...
  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    That would probably already be the case because of economics. Though we do have some big spenders on the PVE servers.


    Difference between big spenders and big spenders who know how to use their stuff is the difference between Lost City and various PvE servers.

    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Do you really mean to say that, on lost city, you have people stupid enough to stand within range of barrage (that does enough damage to matter) for an entire 12 seconds?


    No, they arent given a choice. If your BM's are doing their jobs in TW they'll be put for 12 seconds, and the targets around them will be amped nicely. If they arent... Well then you have no chance.


    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Ok, but you are clearly thinking of a demon archer with a pre-determined set of targets.

    For example, if you tried to limit a sage archer facing a comparably geared assassin with to your set of rules, she could be in serious trouble in what should otherwise be an easy battle.


    If your a sage archer and trying to face a comparably geared assassin in TW you are 100% useless.


    Most TW sins (on lost city) are nice high aps sins. If you are dumb enough to try and tank them you are asking to be the most useless person in TW. You run, or immune yourself in some way so that someone else on your team can help you.
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Personally.... I typically use several chi pots between awaken cooldowns. And I will also use them when I want to keep awaken ready for use.

    And thats fine, but still does you absolutely no good if you dont live long enough to be able to immune yourself when you barrage.

    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Ok, but, again, you are thinking "demon" not "sage".



    That is not a need, and you are thinking of a very specific battle, also.



    Do you have any good sage archers on lost city? From some of the comments you made (like that "2 hits will never kill them" thing), I rather doubt you do. (For example: sage stun + 1.05 aps = 4 normal attacks before stun wears off, maybe 5.) Edit: and, yes, absolute domain would still work, so that means your archer needs to be good enough to get absolute domain on cooldown...


    Regardless of demon or sage, there is no way you'll ever 2 shot an end-game geared player on Lost City.

    You are either:

    A) Breaking through 10K+ pdef
    B) Breaking through 20+ defense levels
    C) Breaking through 10K+ HP
    D) Breaking through Immunes, anti-stuns, etc.


    And:


    You will be trying to break a charm.


    With all that in mind you are also facing people with +10~12 2nd cast nirvana's, +10-12 Rank 9 weapons, +10-12 rank 8 weapons.



    Besides, sage does not deal significant amounts of damage to suddenly make it able to 2 shot something a demon archer cant.



    Furthermore, the only sage archer that has any remote chance of 2-shotting an end-game player is Shinzoko, and he is absolutely horrible when it comes to group PvP. Shinzoko undoubtably could out-damage any sage archer you can possibly name on your server.

    For the rest of us on Lost City who dont have $45,000 to spend, we've realized that sage archers are useless as 2 of your highest hitting shots will only at most tick someones charm. You'll never be able to produce the needed damage to kill them.
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Difference between big spenders and big spenders who know how to use their stuff is the difference between Lost City and various PvE servers.

    Ok!

    b:chuckle
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    No, they arent given a choice. If your BM's are doing their jobs in TW they'll be put for 12 seconds, and the targets around them will be amped nicely. If they arent... Well then you have no chance.

    Its nice when everything goes your way... but yes, when you have your apothecary not on cooldown, and the 300 chi, you have a suitable high health target with a good BM ready to be stunlocking those nearby, and when you have no other AoE support, against sufficiently high health targets (that do not have absolute domain ready on their genies -- then you only get one hit), Demon barrage has a clear advantage over sage barrage.

    angellicdeity wrote: »
    If your a sage archer and trying to face a comparably geared assassin in TW you are 100% useless.

    Not in my experience, no, not if you have been buffed properly. But that is a very nice assertion you have.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Most TW sins (on lost city) are nice high aps sins. If you are dumb enough to try and tank them you are asking to be the most useless person in TW. You run, or immune yourself in some way so that someone else on your team can help you.

    I was assuming 4aps from stealth, where tanking them for a short bit of time is your only alternative, and where if you mess up you die.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    And thats fine, but still does you absolutely no good if you dont live long enough to be able to immune yourself when you barrage.

    Here, you are claiming that an archer can be useful for 10% of the time in tw (max) and otherwise you do no good. (Ironguard lasts 12 seconds and has a 120 second cooldown.) I am not going to even attempt to refute this claim. Instead, I will stand in awe of its magnificent proportions and pig headed tactics.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Regardless of demon or sage, there is no way you'll ever 2 shot an end-game geared player on Lost City.

    You are either:

    A) Breaking through 10K+ pdef
    B) Breaking through 20+ defense levels
    C) Breaking through 10K+ HP
    D) Breaking through Immunes, anti-stuns, etc.

    And:

    You will be trying to break a charm.

    Not only that, I do not have enough range to hit anone on lost city from sanctuary.

    But with (D) you are mixing your arguments. D would be a reason for me to not be able to 10 shot them, not a reason for me to not be able to 2 shot them.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    With all that in mind you are also facing people with +10~12 2nd cast nirvana's, +10-12 Rank 9 weapons, +10-12 rank 8 weapons.

    Yes?

    I was fighting people with that kind of gear on sanctuary also (well, not the rank 9s and not many rank 8s, since I stopped fighting in TW almost exactly a month ago), and not everyone had that kind of gear either, but I was some fighting people with +11 or +12 second cast nirvanas and a lot of +10s (though that was mostly lunar)).
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Besides, sage does not deal significant amounts of damage to suddenly make it able to 2 shot something a demon archer cant.

    Actually this is false, a sage archer has a slight advantage on being able to two shot certain people that a demon archer can't. But its very small and not worth discussing, which would be close to your point.

    But, really, I understand that you cannot figure out how to make a sage archer useful. I totally get that. But this totally is not my problem.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Furthermore, the only sage archer that has any remote chance of 2-shotting an end-game player is Shinzoko, and he is absolutely horrible when it comes to group PvP. Shinzoko undoubtably could out-damage any sage archer you can possibly name on your server.

    This explanation does serve to illustrate your thinking processes, which I suppose is a good thing.

    And, I imagine that Shinzoko will be learning new tactics over time.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    For the rest of us on Lost City who dont have $45,000 to spend, we've realized that sage archers are useless as 2 of your highest hitting shots will only at most tick someones charm. You'll never be able to produce the needed damage to kill them.

    Here, you are repeating yourself, without actually managing to provide any new and useful insights, information, arguments, or reasons to continue this discussion.

    So, please allow me to repeat myself in a similar fashion:

    I was fighting in TW with a +5 tt99 green crossbow, and I was sage, and I found ways to make myself useful. I totally agree with you that a lot of people on lost city heavily outgear me, and that I would not have been useful against them. But I was already fighting against people that heavily outgeared me on sanctuary, and I was participating, usefully, in defeating people with much much better gear than I had. (Towards the end there, my utterly useless pk kill count would often rise, after a tw, by about the number of people that were in the opposing faction, and a lot of that, though not most of it, was from killing clerics.)
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    I agree that sage barrage is not very good in TW. Sage barrage starts off with around 15% lower dps per area and there is no way that 25% damage reduction will help an archer keep up the barrage for 15% longer. The counter to any zhen in TW is a stun, seal, or interrupt to bring it down as fast as possible. Typically from the moment you open barrage you will have a fixed amount of time to do as much damage as you can before you are interrupted or the target catches wise and runs away and demon will output more damage during that time.

    Barrage is also used to provide suppressive fire on HQ / towers but again demon barrage would perform better for these tasks. The one interesting tidbit I have heard from sages barraging in TW is that with sage winged blessing in combination with a +2 meter weapon (TT100 xbow or TT99 xbow) it is possible to barrage on the spawn towers allowing you to directly hit the respawn. This is really intriguing but I suspect an action like that is less about turning the tide of battle and more about sticking a nail in a coffin.

    Sage barrage's performance in PVE is really hampered since it reduces the effectiveness of BB damage reduction. Considering how often in PVE the act of barraging overlaps with being in a BB this can make it less preferable than lvl 10 barrage, never-mind demon barrage.
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    I think bottom line is that both paths have advantages, you should acknowledge them, and not try to defend every aspect of your path.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I think bottom line is that both paths have advantages, you should acknowledge them, and not try to defend every aspect of your path.

    Sage definitely has its strengths. Barrage is not one of them.
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  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Heh... the archer board in a nutshell: a theoretical discussion about whether there are more sage archers these days ends in a multi-page debate on a purely statistical topic of only partial relevance to the OP. :P

    That said, I think this is still the best sage/demon discussion I've seen in a while.
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    Other Active Characters:
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  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Argh... you are driving me to tears....

    So.. yes, if you have almost no critical hit chance, +1% crit is essentially a 1% increase in base DPS. How that compares to base attack depends on when it happens. If the crit bypasses someone's charm, that is almost like a 3x increase in base attack, where if the crit ticks someone's charm it's almost like a 0x increase in base attack, or worse, since it negates that future 3x possibility. Or, if bypassing charm is not possible (or unlikely) its back to something near a 1% increase in effective damage.

    I am comparing everything to base damage. An archer with 10k base damage and 51% crit will have 1% base damage increase from an archer with 10k base damage and 50% crit when AVERAGE OVER TIME. And since we are talking about dps... its a safe assumption that we are averaging out the damage over... say a minute or even 10 minutes. If you are talking about bypassing charms... then its going to be dph... which the best you can hope for is a sage crit.


    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Furthermore, the only sage archer that has any remote chance of 2-shotting an end-game player is Shinzoko, and he is absolutely horrible when it comes to group PvP. Shinzoko undoubtably could out-damage any sage archer you can possibly name on your server.

    So what bow does he have? There are archers with full r9 armor sharded with dots... with gemed r9 bow +12ed. Unless he manage to +13 his bow... i doubt the damage difference will be noticeable between him and any other archer with the gear. Just cause hes the top dog in the lost city pond... doesn't mean he'll still claim the title else where. While its true that lost city have more highly refined/geared people in term of numbers. But if you take the top 10 from lc and ht... and do a comparsion between them... there are not going to be many differences in gears/damages.

    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Sage barrage's performance in PVE is really hampered since it reduces the effectiveness of BB damage reduction. Considering how often in PVE the act of barraging overlaps with being in a BB this can make it less preferable than lvl 10 barrage, never-mind demon barrage.

    Seem a rb team who didn't dig any beans, kill bean mobs, or ran bean quests... who had their cleric dc at wave 6/7 (and never went back)... just finished the entire rb with a sage archer tanking mobs.
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I think bottom line is that both paths have advantages, you should acknowledge them, and not try to defend every aspect of your path.

    I already said (a couple pages back) that demon barrage is going to do more damage and sage barrage is going to have less down time (between barrages)... and so far... it only seem like 1 idiot is trying to argue the said point.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I agree that sage barrage is not very good in TW. Sage barrage starts off with around 15% lower dps per area and there is no way that 25% damage reduction will help an archer keep up the barrage for 15% longer. The counter to any zhen in TW is a stun, seal, or interrupt to bring it down as fast as possible. Typically from the moment you open barrage you will have a fixed amount of time to do as much damage as you can before you are interrupted or the target catches wise and runs away and demon will output more damage during that time.

    You get a 50% increase in survivability, and if you use vacuity powder you are immune to stuns for 20 seconds. If you have an ok base health, a cleric healing you, and maybe tree of protection for when you are getting hit really hard, you might last long enough for the vacuity to wear off. Meanwhile, unless you are standing too close together, every second the opponents attack you is a second when they are not attacking your teammates.
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Sage barrage's performance in PVE is really hampered since it reduces the effectiveness of BB damage reduction. Considering how often in PVE the act of barraging overlaps with being in a BB this can make it less preferable than lvl 10 barrage, never-mind demon barrage.

    Yes, but thats a theoretical thing -- I have not proven to myself yet that it actually happens.

    If we suffer this weakness, then we would also get a damage reduction buff within three seconds of blue bubble failing. That should be easy to test for, and maybe I will do that tonight.
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    And...

    Tonight was in tw. I was pretty useless.
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Sage's barrage is only 20-30% reduction (i forget which) rather than the 50% from BB and I seem to remember a sage archer somewhere saying it made RB harder to finish.

    It wouldnt be super hard to test in game if there is a BB conflict in-game. Fleuri if you have sage barrage pm me sometime and i can bring my slave cleric to test it under BB.

    Anyway I would recommend using alacrity >IG or AD >IG rather than vac powder to bring up barrage in TW. Vac powder suffers from still being vulnerable to seals and interrupt skills.
    Kiyoshi wrote:
    Seem a rb team who didn't dig any beans, kill bean mobs, or ran bean quests... who had their cleric dc at wave 6/7 (and never went back)... just finished the entire rb with a sage archer tanking mobs.
    Glad that it worked out but deltas where the cleric drops aren't really new and demon archers have completed under those circumstances as well. Even so it is an exceptional case that doesn't really address my point of it (possibly?) performing worse in standard zhens.
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  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Sage's barrage is only 20-30% reduction (i forget which) rather than the 50% from BB and I seem to remember a sage archer somewhere saying it made RB harder to finish.

    It wouldnt be super hard to test in game if there is a BB conflict in-game. Fleuri if you have sage barrage pm me sometime and i can bring my slave cleric to test it under BB.

    Sage barrage gives 33% damage reduction. 1/(1-1/3) = 3/2

    And my problem with testing sage barrage has not been finding a cleric, but has been finding a target to last long enough and still have low enough danger that I do not mind standing there without blue bubble nor damage reduction and so on.
  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    I'm just waiting for R10 to come out. b:laugh
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • Falcondance - Heavens Tear
    Falcondance - Heavens Tear Posts: 699 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Sage barrage gives 33% damage reduction. 1/(1-1/3) = 3/2

    And my problem with testing sage barrage has not been finding a cleric, but has been finding a target to last long enough and still have low enough danger that I do not mind standing there without blue bubble nor damage reduction and so on.

    You could try a FB69 door-keeper.
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Just do a duel with someone punching you. Weaponless attacks do fixed physical damage. You dont even have to barrage on your opponent but on one of those blank mobs in arch.
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