Sage Archers On the rise?
Self_Suicide - Harshlands
Posts: 11 Arc User
With the rep sale comes dirt cheap Awesome gear. And all i read about sage archers are they need good gear to compete with Demon archers. Well now that PWI has evened the playing field so to speak Are sage archers now a viable option?
Post edited by Self_Suicide - Harshlands on
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Self_Suicide - Harshlands wrote: »With the rep sale comes dirt cheap Awesome gear. And all i read about sage archers are they need good gear to compete with Demon archers. Well now that PWI has evened the playing field so to speak Are sage archers now a viable option?
Since 5 aps without demon spark is a lot easier now I can see a lot of sage archers for pure farming but pvp wise I doubt there will be a change.0 -
Sage archers are always a viable option.When I first started out as a archer,I always wanted to be Sage so I could troll these whole forums at that time since I remember "Demon>Sage" was the biggest thing next to "QQ our damage sucks,we suck,everything sucks".
Oh,btw,Devoted,when you blowing out this place?0 -
I know a few who are changing/wanting to change their cultivation now.0
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I wouldn't go sage. And pretty sure r8 +10bow at .95 attack rate and 40% crit does more damage than unsparked fists/claws at 5aps. Might have to actually look at that.0
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XxZavxX - Raging Tide wrote: »I wouldn't go sage. And pretty sure r8 +10bow at .95 attack rate and 40% crit does more damage than unsparked fists/claws at 5aps. Might have to actually look at that.
You're a genius.0 -
For my part, I just hate the irony in how sage used to be so hated, and now that everyone can be broken with 5.0, people want sage again just to be broken. -_-
In fairness, I HAVE seen (and BH'd with) a few sage archers lately who actually appreciate the skills and playstyle for what it is. Those people have put a smile on my face. So is sage on the rise? Yes, I suppose so... for better or worse, or both. ._.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
Other Active Characters:
LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).0 -
<~ waiting for devoted to start randomly knifeing people in frustrationGifs are hard to make work here0
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Well no one makes archers for farming in general so i really doubt it. I haven't noticed any increase in the sage archer population either. People make archers to get Rank8 bow and be awesome in TW and pvp and for that they still go Demon.
Why make a 5.0 sage archer when you can use the same amount of money and get a 5.0 Sin? Sins deal pretty much double dmg at 5.0 and gets perma healed with BP. No one gives a **** that sage archers gets 25% dmg reduction, they wont be tanking anyway since they cant hold agro against BM/Sin with similar gear.0 -
XxZavxX - Raging Tide wrote: »I wouldn't go sage. And pretty sure r8 +10bow at .95 attack rate and 40% crit does more damage than unsparked fists/claws at 5aps. Might have to actually look at that.
I am sage... and I am pretty sure my +12 r8 does more damage then your archer. And if an archer can reach 5aps unspark... why won't he just do 5aps sparked?1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »I am sage... and I am pretty sure my +12 r8 does more damage then your archer. And if an archer can reach 5aps unspark... why won't he just do 5aps sparked?
You might, because you are trying to build chi?0 -
TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »Well no one makes archers for farming in general so i really doubt it. I haven't noticed any increase in the sage archer population either. People make archers to get Rank8 bow and be awesome in TW and pvp and for that they still go Demon.
Why make a 5.0 sage archer when you can use the same amount of money and get a 5.0 Sin? Sins deal pretty much double dmg at 5.0 and gets perma healed with BP. No one gives a **** that sage archers gets 25% dmg reduction, they wont be tanking anyway since they cant hold agro against BM/Sin with similar gear.
This.Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »I am sage... and I am pretty sure my +12 r8 does more damage then your archer. And if an archer can reach 5aps unspark... why won't he just do 5aps sparked?
Your +12 Rank 8 isn't enough to kill people with decent gears.
The reason demon is still preferred in PvP is:
1) Demon Quickshot
2) Stunning Arrow (+10% crit)
3) Sharpened Tooth Arrow (+10% crit)
4) Lightning Strike (Never misses)
PvE wise, demon spark will still outdo sages (using bows).
If your using claws/fists you might as well roll a 5aps sin. More than quadruple the damage, ability to heal itself, and at the same cost as a 5 aps sage archer.0 -
angellicdeity wrote: »Your +12 Rank 8 isn't enough to kill people with decent gears.
Your statement sounds ludicrous, to me:
First, I see a lot of nonsense posted on the forums. I am tempted to put your statement in that category. However:
What is your idea of "decent gear"?
Also, do you mean "not one shot"? Or do you mean "not kill"? And, if you mean "not kill", could you back up your meaning with some reasoning which does not reduce to "not one shot"?0 -
Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »Also, do you mean "not one shot"? Or do you mean "not kill"? And, if you mean "not kill", could you back up your meaning with some reasoning which does not reduce to "not one shot"?
This post just Jedi'd the **** out of my brain.
I'm gonna leave now...On indefinite hiatus0 -
Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »Your statement sounds ludicrous, to me:
First, I see a lot of nonsense posted on the forums. I am tempted to put your statement in that category. However:
What is your idea of "decent gear"?
Also, do you mean "not one shot"? Or do you mean "not kill"? And, if you mean "not kill", could you back up your meaning with some reasoning which does not reduce to "not one shot"?
Take a stroll on lost city, and watch how miserably the sage archers fail to kill someone equally geared.
Sage archers depend on their hits to hit hard. Otherwise they really have nothing that'll help them get the job done when:
A) their opponites are feilding 10K+ pdef with 20+ defense levels
Their opponites are feilding 10K+ hp.
No interval bonus, no critical bonus.0 -
I think. That a +12 Nirvana 2nd Recast bow with 2 drakeflames. Will deal more damage. Than a +0 Annhilation of Souls.
I'm gonna have to look into that.A) their opponites are feilding 10K+ pdef with 20+ defense levels
Their opponites are feilding 10K+ hp.
A) OhaiMagicattacks.
Ohaicritwith+12bow0 -
Archer magic attacks tickle.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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o.o I did 10k crits with Demon Thunder Shock and a +6 R8 bow on an unmarrowed end game BM. Obviously marrowed its way less >.<0
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Russiee - Raging Tide wrote: »o.o I did 10k crits with Demon Thunder Shock and a +6 R8 bow on an unmarrowed end game BM. Obviously marrowed its way less >.<
I'm always marrowed[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I am sage archer and you all suck.0
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I am a new gen Rank 8 Sage Archer. Watch me auto attack a BM at melee range who is using physical marrow and watch me win! WIN!! I SAID WIN!!!!!! ****. I died. How did I die? It appears I need to put more money into the game0
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Russiee - Raging Tide wrote: »I am a new gen Rank 8 Sage Archer. Watch me auto attack a BM at melee range who is using physical marrow and watch me win! WIN!! I SAID WIN!!!!!! ****. I died. How did I die? It appears I need to put more money into the game
Oh, that is so mean... but perhaps accurate.angellicdeity wrote: »Take a stroll on lost city, and watch how miserably the sage archers fail to kill someone equally geared.
Sage archers depend on their hits to hit hard. Otherwise they really have nothing that'll help them get the job done when:
A) their opponites are feilding 10K+ pdef with 20+ defense levels
Their opponites are feilding 10K+ hp.
No interval bonus, no critical bonus.
In my experience, waiting for PK on a PK server will often eat hours and accomplish little, and other times will succeed but reveal little. So I think I am going to have to decline your invitation to take a stroll.
And, those numbers you gave do not really mean anything, without class and so on. But, honestly, for a lot of wizards, metal attacks often work better on them than physical attacks -- they will have about the same defense against both attacks, but you can debuff their metal defenses much easier than you can debuff their physical defenses. (Or were you going to use sage quickshot + normal attacks on a wizard?)
And, personally, I do not have any experience with a +12 rank 8 bow. I have never gone above +5 with anything and all of my pk experience was tw with a soul crusher... But 10kpdef, 10kmdef, 20 defense levels and 10k hp does not sound very intimidating, in my opinion. You might have to harrass them for a while, to get their genie and apothecaries into cooldown, but they should be killable (assuming you have your sage skills and not just the cultivation, and assuming you are not heavily outgeared and/or outnumbered).0 -
angellicdeity wrote: »
Your +12 Rank 8 isn't enough to kill people with decent gears.
The reason demon is still preferred in PvP is:
1) Demon Quickshot
2) Stunning Arrow (+10% crit)
3) Sharpened Tooth Arrow (+10% crit)
4) Lightning Strike (Never misses)
PvE wise, demon spark will still outdo sages (using bows).
If your using claws/fists you might as well roll a 5aps sin. More than quadruple the damage, ability to heal itself, and at the same cost as a 5 aps sage archer.
I have no doubt demon bow archer would out damage a similar built sage bow archer. I'll give you demon quickshot being better. But sage has longer stun which would give the time for a whole extra shot... vs 10% extra crit for demon. Sage's 20% sharp has its own uses. And the never miss lighting is useless... I miss maybe like 1 in a hundred shots.
Demon or sage... archers are judged by their weapon PERIOD. Just how many archers do you see with an above +10 refined r8 (before sale). And now... just how many archers do you think have a +10 or above r9. I could be an archer with neither demon/sage cult... but as long as I am wielding one of the top bows... I'll still be a force to be reckon with.
All the demon or **** archers can say whatever they want. But as long as I am hitting 2k+ non crit regulars on bms and 6k+ metal on barbs... I am still going to make the kill. If you are short on coins and want to squeeze every bit of your archer... by all means go demon. But people like me... who never wielded a sub +10 weapon for the longest time can go whatever cult we want... and I just happen to pick sage.
Lastly... my archer is build for tw and tw only. And in my opinion sage archers has the slight advantage in tw:
1. Never short on chi - pretty much every other skill gives chi.
2. Better debuff.
3. Faster cooldown on metal aoe.
4. Higher base damage.
5. Longer stun.
In tw... and with my weapon... i don't really need quickshot to get the kill.
I'll agree that demons are better in world pvp due to quickshot and demon spark alone. But their usefulness are diminishing with all the demon sins running around now... like my. And I am willing to bet that an equally geared demon sin is going to win against an demon archer 95% of the time. So in that aspect... it doesn't matter if demon archer are the better choice for open world pk... both cults are going to get owned.
Sadly... the pool of +10 r8/nirv/r9 archers on the server (my server) is actually pretty small... a handful at best. No one is going to pick a +5 demon arch over my +12 sage. So whats there for me to compare against? The 6 other archers with +12 weapons that i know of... and 2 of them happen to be sage too.1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
I need chi to cast Stormrage Eagleon and to triple spark, by putting up a gigantic sign saying "Attack Me here".
Demon BoA would have the advantage in TW, the Demon Stun skills also, seeing as now its mostly tab, attack, tab, attack, tab, attack with 1 shots due to +12 R8/9 bows. Because of that Aps and Crit would win over.
But thats just my opinion.0 -
Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »I have no doubt demon bow archer would out damage a similar built sage bow archer. I'll give you demon quickshot being better. But sage has longer stun which would give the time for a whole extra shot... vs 10% extra crit for demon. Sage's 20% sharp has its own uses. And the never miss lighting is useless... I miss maybe like 1 in a hundred shots.
Demon will frequently but not always outdamage a sage archer. But that never miss lighting is not useless. You just have to know when to use it (and apparently you have not seen that situation).Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »Demon or sage... archers are judged by their weapon PERIOD.
No, just... no. Well... not me, anyways.Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »Lastly... my archer is build for tw and tw only. And in my opinion sage archers has the slight advantage in tw:
1. Never short on chi - pretty much every other skill gives chi.
2. Better debuff.
3. Faster cooldown on metal aoe.
4. Higher base damage.
5. Longer stun.
You left out longer range. Which, if you are alert, gives you a first strike advantage.Russiee - Raging Tide wrote: »I need chi to cast Stormrage Eagleon and to triple spark, by putting up a gigantic sign saying "Attack Me here".
Demon BoA would have the advantage in TW, the Demon Stun skills also, seeing as now its mostly tab, attack, tab, attack, tab, attack with 1 shots due to +12 R8/9 bows. Because of that Aps and Crit would win over.
In my opinion, stormrage is a very specialized skill... mostly useful for keeping other people alive, but not always.
And I think maybe you underestimate how long you need to process information after a tab. Yes, doing 1.54 attacks per second, almost half the time, can be nice, but you need some setup time to do those quickshots, and when it fails you have taken extra time between shots. But, beyond that, a TW against only easy opponents sounds ... well... personally, I would not optimize for that case.0 -
Russiee - Raging Tide wrote: »I need chi to cast Stormrage Eagleon and to triple spark, by putting up a gigantic sign saying "Attack Me here".
Demon BoA would have the advantage in TW, the Demon Stun skills also, seeing as now its mostly tab, attack, tab, attack, tab, attack with 1 shots due to +12 R8/9 bows. Because of that Aps and Crit would win over.
But thats just my opinion.
Demon and sage have the same passive aps/crit (maybe demon would have 1 extra if you count the crit from winged blessing). If its just tab and attack for a 1 shot kill like you said... sage would have the advantage since they have higher base and similar crit/aps. If you are taking skills in to the matter... one archer can fire off 2 shots in the time another use a skill. quickshot is 50% increase in aps... the other 50% does ****. so if you ran into the 50% that does ****... you just wasted your time casting a skill when you could easily shot the guy twice. And if you ran into the 50% that actually does something... with a +12 weapon the robe is going to be dead regardless.
I would agree that demon barrage is better in tw... now lets see them get it up while apoc is in cool down.Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »No, just... no. Well... not me, anyways.
You don't think that you are judged by your weapon? Lets just say/assume you are demon. You and your demon +5 soul crusher... and me with my sage +10 cv or +12 r8 (both my former weapons)... which 1 of us would give the stronger perception to others? A demon archer one level below me... using the same weapon that i (might) have used THREE upgrades ago. That's not a good sign of usefulness or competitiveness. Like I said before... you can be the most skilled archer in the game... but as long as you are hitting mid 3-digits on a robe... you are not going to kill him.1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »Demon and sage have the same passive aps/crit (maybe demon would have 1 extra if you count the crit from winged blessing).
In theory yes, in practice... not always. For example, that range thing sometimes matters. And, for that matter, sometimes being alive vs. dead matters, and of course sometimes attack rate matters.Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »If its just tab and attack for a 1 shot kill like you said...
That was Russiee, and was not me.Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »You don't think that you are judged by your weapon? Lets just say/assume you are demon. You and your demon +5 soul crusher... and me with my sage +10 cv or +12 r8 (both my former weapons)... which 1 of us would give the stronger perception to others? A demon archer one level below me... using the same weapon that i (might) have used THREE upgrades ago. That's not a good sign of usefulness or competitiveness. Like I said before... you can be the most skilled archer in the game... but as long as you are hitting mid 3-digits on a robe... you are not going to kill him.
My point was that I have been judged by things other than my weapons.
And... you have just gotten too many things wrong with your assessment of how my battles worked for me, for me to respond meaningfully. I would have to produce a full page essay just to touch on all the points you got wrong, and explaining clearly where you went wrong would take even longer. And mostly I would expect similar non-comprehension in response. So lets just say that if you were correct in your assumptions that your judgement would be completely accurate.
Edit: ok, I am going to try: mid 3-digit damage sounds like unsparked fists, rather than a crossbow. Crossbow has a factor of four difference between low-end damage and high end, before special effects that change damage. My unsparked high-end was about 4.5k, with skills but without debuffs and also without the other person using any special temporary defenses, and maybe a bit higher with deadly shot or take aim. But TW is not a solo activity and if I was soloing, things have already gone to hell. And beyond that we would be getting into my role in a TW, which I do not want to get into here, except to note that archers have a purely defensive role in TW, and we mostly engage in secondary defense.
Further edit: I would sometimes go through 40 white tea in a tw, and also managed my genie's energy, for cloud erruption and other purposes, and would often enough be using awaken on its cooldown. And I would sometimes have time to be using master li's technique, also...
But, also, I am writing about TW because I no longer participate in it -- and if I start again, I will have different gear and I will be doing different things. I gained too much advantage, when I was active, from people not knowing what I was doing, for me to want to be talking about it back then.0 -
to the sage archers talking aout chi...
isnt there a level 100 skill that gives 399 chi?
and cloud eruption
and spark potsGifs are hard to make work here0 -
Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »to the sage archers talking aout chi...
isnt there a level 100 skill that gives 399 chi?
and cloud eruption
and spark pots
Its about opportunity cost... and sage archers simply don't have as much an opportunity cost when it comes to chi. Genie could be used for other stuff... ex. stun release/amp. and pots can be otherwised used for immune to damage among other stuff. These are small perks that demon do not readily enjoy if they choose to pot/genie chi. And thanks for mentioning archer's lvl 100 skill awaken... instance cast to gain full chi... with a 15 minute cool down. I like to see you spam that for chi in tw. And just how many demon archers do you know with awaken anyways... for every demon you name with awaken... there is over a thousand without. By the way... the only archer that i know who has awaken on HT... is a sage.
Barrage is nice for area control in tw... while its true that demon barrage does more damage then sage. Whats equally important is the ability to get barrage back up when its sealed/stuned. And given all things equal, sage archers will be able to get it back up that much faster without sacrificing other valurable tw aids.1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »My point was that I have been judged by things other than my weapons.
And... you have just gotten too many things wrong with your assessment of how my battles worked for me, for me to respond meaningfully. I would have to produce a full page essay just to touch on all the points you got wrong, and explaining clearly where you went wrong would take even longer. And mostly I would expect similar non-comprehension in response. So lets just say that if you were correct in your assumptions that your judgement would be completely accurate.
Edit: ok, I am going to try: mid 3-digit damage sounds like unsparked fists, rather than a crossbow. Crossbow has a factor of four difference between low-end damage and high end, before special effects that change damage. My unsparked high-end was about 4.5k, with skills but without debuffs and also without the other person using any special temporary defenses, and maybe a bit higher with deadly shot or take aim. But TW is not a solo activity and if I was soloing, things have already gone to hell. And beyond that we would be getting into my role in a TW, which I do not want to get into here, except to note that archers have a purely defensive role in TW, and we mostly engage in secondary defense.
Lets see... a +5 green tt99 green xbow. I am willing to bet that your max damage will still be lower then my min damage. And my max damage will be about 50% higher then your max damage. And I am willing to get my attack level is aleast 50% higher then yours... if not more. So your 4.5k hit would be at least 6.75k in my hands. Regarding your skills (deadly and take aim as you mentioned)... my sage take aim is the highest damaging phy attack (per shot) an archer can ever get. But here you are... telling me about damage. In every way or form... skill or regular... i am going to out damage you. You can argue that you are judged by the cutness of your hair for all the matters. But when out refined by your opponent... you are not going to be an effective archer.
Then again... maybe that’s the difference between us and our weapons... is that I am on the offensive while you are on the defensive. I don’t get what do you defend against… the cats or the scout? Even with a +12 r9… its still improbable for an archer to kill a purged 30k hp barb. Much easier to kill the clerics and push forward… and let the wiz clean up the leftovers.1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »Its about opportunity cost... and sage archers simply don't have as much an opportunity cost when it comes to chi. Genie could be used for other stuff... ex. stun release/amp. and pots can be otherwised used for immune to damage among other stuff. These are small perks that demon do not readily enjoy if they choose to pot/genie chi. And thanks for mentioning archer's lvl 100 skill awaken... instance cast to gain full chi... with a 15 minute cool down. I like to see you spam that for chi in tw. And just how many demon archers do you know with awaken anyways... for every demon you name with awaken... there is over a thousand without. By the way... the only archer that i know who has awaken on HT... is a sage.
Barrage is nice for area control in tw... while its true that demon barrage does more damage then sage. Whats equally important is the ability to get barrage back up when its sealed/stuned. And given all things equal, sage archers will be able to get it back up that much faster without sacrificing other valurable tw aids.
you geni for survival no archer should have trouble killing
50 chi a minute = 1 more barrage every 4 minutes if you nnever die or use chi skills vs consistant faster killing for demonGifs are hard to make work here0
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