Sage Archers On the rise?

24

Comments

  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    you geni for survival no archer should have trouble killing

    50 chi a minute = 1 more barrage every 4 minutes if you nnever die or use chi skills vs consistant faster killing for demon

    I have no idea what you mean by first sentence. And yes, it would be 1 barrage per 4 minutes if i sit there doing nothing between barrages. Not sure when is the last time I done that... but it seems you know archers who sit there waiting for sage chi skill to cool down.

    By your logic if sage chi skill is the only source of chi... then once a demon barrage goes down... it can't ever be brought up again. Hell... if thats the only source of chi... how does a demon get barrage up in the first place. So just what are you trying to prove here? There should be no argument that sage can get barrage back up faster then demon can. Even if you want to include genies... just cause demon can use them... doesn't mean sages can't. Every chi skill demons have access to... sage does to... in additional to several additional chi skills.

    How hard is that to understand? Demon barrage = more damage. Sage = lower down time between barrages.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I have no idea what you mean by first sentence. And yes, it would be 1 barrage per 4 minutes if i sit there doing nothing between barrages. Not sure when is the last time I done that... but it seems you know archers who sit there waiting for sage chi skill to cool down.

    By your logic if sage chi skill is the only source of chi... then once a demon barrage goes down... it can't ever be brought up again. Hell... if thats the only source of chi... how does a demon get barrage up in the first place. So just what are you trying to prove here? There should be no argument that sage can get barrage back up faster then demon can. Even if you want to include genies... just cause demon can use them... doesn't mean sages can't. Every chi skill demons have access to... sage does to... in additional to several additional chi skills.

    How hard is that to understand? Demon barrage = more damage. Sage = lower down time between barrages.

    1st point was that archer have absolutely no issue with killing in TW and thus would use geni for survival and chi

    2nd was that you get 50 more chi a min than a demon archer and cloud eruption on a full mag and vit geni is clost to 2 sparks a minute with a bit left over for survival...makes the chi gain almost nonfactor...tack on 100 skills and spark pots all of which are the same w/e your culti is and sage chi gain becomes nonfactor

    demon would wings>barrage in TW so sage gets 5 more seconds of a slower barrage the down time is the same for both due to the above reason

    barage is basicly the only use of chi in TW aside from 3 spark which is a flashing "kill me now" sign

    demon is so much better in map pk its not even funny

    sage is great for soloing in pve as they can use berserker fists at 5 aps
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    1st point was that archer have absolutely no issue with killing in TW and thus would use geni for survival and chi

    2nd was that you get 50 more chi a min than a demon archer and cloud eruption on a full mag and vit geni is clost to 2 sparks a minute with a bit left over for survival...makes the chi gain almost nonfactor...tack on 100 skills and spark pots all of which are the same w/e your culti is and sage chi gain becomes nonfactor

    demon would wings>barrage in TW so sage gets 5 more seconds of a slower barrage the down time is the same for both due to the above reason

    barage is basicly the only use of chi in TW aside from 3 spark which is a flashing "kill me now" sign

    demon is so much better in map pk its not even funny

    sage is great for soloing in pve as they can use berserker fists at 5 aps

    Just how many tw have you been in... and just how many of those you did as an archer. By your example in order for an demon archer to wing of grace and then barrage. He would need to use his awaken... or chain eruption and spark pot... or have 3 sparks to start out with. just how often does that happen? Thats just stupid... holding off barrage until you have 3 sparks. I can't recall ever seeing a single archer wing of grace before his barrage... demon or sage. 5 seconds delay is a lifetime for some targets... or how long do you expect robe (or even light armor) to last with a +12 lvl 11 barrage on them?

    And by your reasoning that a pure mag genie can get close to 2 sparks with eruption. So lets say a sage use chi skill and eruption... barrage is up. Demon is still going need to rummage around for that few extra chi... after using eruption. Face it... more chi skills = faster chi = faster spark gain. And why should i settle for "a bit" of genie energy left for survival... when i have have all of it left for survival. None of my genies have eruption... why? Because i am never short on chi... ever. I would rather use that genie skill slot on other skills... skills that are much more useful for me then say... eruption. Instead of the full mag genie only good for eruption and "a bit" of survival. I seems to like my 100 dex genie with 90% chance to remove stun. I have lost count of the amount of time when a 5aps stuns me and I was able to get away cause of my dex genie. And if I choose to... that genie can hit almost as hard as my bow.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Gryphyyn - Heavens Tear
    Gryphyyn - Heavens Tear Posts: 150 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Self_Suicide - Harshlands wrote: »
    With the rep sale comes dirt cheap Awesome gear. And all i read about sage archers are they need good gear to compete with Demon archers. Well now that PWI has evened the playing field so to speak Are sage archers now a viable option?

    The reason for sage archers to go on the rise is because of the cheaper and op gear available (as you said already) and also more new/old cash-shopping players (whom are willing to pay hundreds of dollars on a "free" mmorpg) now see no need to have damage spurts (Demon Archer attributes) when they can just keep hitting consistently (Sage Archer attributes) high with highly refined weapons and gears.

    Its really simple, when you are willing to buy a Ferrari it makes no difference what kind of fuel you put into the car (it becomes negligible). Same is true here: why worry about skills and differences when you can just pay for high, op weapons/gear that can help you "win" the game.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Karma | ex-GoldDigrz | ex-xWaRx | ex-Reunited | ex-Tao
    Status: Semi-Active | Mood: Apathetic
    Gryphyyn (10x Archer) | Tyyphoon (10x Assassin) | Ryyft (8x Seeker)

    Fearless. | karmapwi.com
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    rant.

    and you get exactly 1 more barrage than that demon archer every 4 mins at best

    also unless i'm mistaken the idea behind barrage in TW is to put it on the highest hp and def target in a group

    and seriously aside from sins who actually 5 aps DD's a single target in TW? and those target clerics mainly

    in pk yes its a different geni setup but thats demonland
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Lets see... a +5 green tt99 green xbow. I am willing to bet that your max damage will still be lower then my min damage. And my max damage will be about 50% higher then your max damage. And I am willing to get my attack level is aleast 50% higher then yours... if not more. So your 4.5k hit would be at least 6.75k in my hands.

    Perhaps, but you have left out so many important variables that I could not know for sure.
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Regarding your skills (deadly and take aim as you mentioned)... my sage take aim is the highest damaging phy attack (per shot) an archer can ever get. But here you are... telling me about damage. In every way or form... skill or regular... i am going to out damage you. You can argue that you are judged by the cutness of your hair for all the matters. But when out refined by your opponent... you are not going to be an effective archer.

    I am telling you about my damage, since I happen to know something about that. I do not disagree that you will outdamage me. However, the relationship between your damage and my damage would not be a linear relationship based on our weapon damage.
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Then again... maybe that's the difference between us and our weapons... is that I am on the offensive while you are on the defensive. I don't get what do you defend against... the cats or the scout? Even with a +12 r9... its still improbable for an archer to kill a purged 30k hp barb. Much easier to kill the clerics and push forward... and let the wiz clean up the leftovers.

    The only offense in TW is meaningful attacks on the opponents crystal. That mostly means catapults and their supporting people. Defense would be opposition to the offense. Secondary defense would be opposition to the other side's defense.

    In other words: "defense" means killing catapult pullers, which archers mostly do not do (though we do kill their clerics and that would indeed be defense). Secondary defense is what you do when you tab-shoot -- you are clearing out the opponent's defenses.
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    and you get exactly 1 more barrage than that demon archer every 4 mins at best

    Sages get extra chi from skills other than master li's technique. Demons get extra chi from their increased attack rate. So "exactly 1 more barrage ... every 4 minutes" mostly says you have not thought about this issue very deeply.
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    also unless i'm mistaken the idea behind barrage in TW is to put it on the highest hp and def target in a group

    That might be the ideal, but often you do not have enough time to select such a target, and when you use barrage you discover other issues also.
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    and seriously aside from sins who actually 5 aps DD's a single target in TW? and those target clerics mainly

    I have used 5aps a few times in TW. Finding a situation where 5aps is useful are rare, but it can be made to work. I managed to kill a catapult barb that way, once (and he had far too much health for my weak crossbow attacks to do anything meaningful to him). I died before I could kill another barb, but I think trading an archer for a catapult puller was a reasonable tradeoff.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    and you get exactly 1 more barrage than that demon archer every 4 mins at best

    also unless i'm mistaken the idea behind barrage in TW is to put it on the highest hp and def target in a group

    and seriously aside from sins who actually 5 aps DD's a single target in TW? and those target clerics mainly

    in pk yes its a different geni setup but thats demonland

    From your post its obvious that you never been in a tw before… or be in one enough to actually know whats going on. While it’s true that you suppose to "try" to set the barrage on the most hp target to make the barrage last longer. But realistically only the first 2-3 cycles of barrage is really effective... after that either all the killable targets are dead or the barrage target has ran out of range or you are stun/seal out of it. By your suggestion of demon casting wing of grace first... the 5 second delay (as you suggested) sage would have already killed all the targets.

    And yes, 1 extra barrage every 4 minutes if I just use sage chi gain. But you are forgetting that sage also have other skills that gives chi. Even if its just as you suggested 1 extra barrage every 4 minutes... thats a 25% increase in barrage frequency. Aleast this is better then your other suggestion of awaken... lets wait for 15 minutes to cast a barrage.

    Finally could you pull your head out of whatever it is in. Sin's job is not to target clerics... aleast the well protected ones. Are you suggesting that a sin should shadow tp or stealth to a cleric thats protected by a wall of bms and a line of archers? Its just more effective for an archer to shoot from 30/32/34m instead of letting a sin walk up to melee range to get the kill. And you do know that no sin can have a 5aps passive attack rate right. So in order for a sin to 5aps someone... he would need to spark and give the intended target a 3 second warning to get the **** away.

    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Perhaps, but you have left out so many important variables that I could not know for sure.
    What variables am i missing here? Your soul crusher debuffs... my bow does that too... at a higher chance might i add. You got the extra accuracy... i got the 50% accuracy ring. I guess the only variable between our barrages is that you got the extra range but I got the extra damage.
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    The only offense in TW is meaningful attacks on the opponents crystal. That mostly means catapults and their supporting people. Defense would be opposition to the offense. Secondary defense would be opposition to the other side's defense.

    So, I guess the cats are just suddenly going to tp to the enemy crystal. But I am going to let this one go since we may have a different views on offense/defense.

    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Sages get extra chi from skills other than master li's technique. Demons get extra chi from their increased attack rate. So "exactly 1 more barrage ... every 4 minutes" mostly says you have not thought about this issue very deeply.

    Lets not forget demon and sage have the same passive attack rate. The only way for demon to get an increased attack rate is through quickshot or triple spark. But since we're talking about ways to gain chi... triple spark just so you can gain chi faster is out of the question. So that leaves quickshot... which is 50% chance to increase attack rate... but it require a target. And in order for you to use quickshot to its fullest (to chi gain) you would need the target to live through the entire 6 seconds. Unless you go around quickshotting barbs/bms... I don't see quickshot as an effective way of getting chi. But what about the other side of the coin... the 50% where quickshot doesn't increase attack rate?

    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I have used 5aps a few times in TW. Finding a situation where 5aps is useful are rare, but it can be made to work. I managed to kill a catapult barb that way, once (and he had far too much health for my weak crossbow attacks to do anything meaningful to him). I died before I could kill another barb, but I think trading an archer for a catapult puller was a reasonable tradeoff.

    So here I am to expect a demon archer with a +5 bow… to have a higher refined claw/fist. For an aps archer… anything below +10 lunar 5aps will not hold aggro against my bow when sparked. And I know I can’t kill a 30k+ hp barb with 50 def levels with bow... even with metal crits. So either you are fighting against **** cat pullers or you are just full of it. Or you lost half a brain and have a way higher refined claw then bow… as an archer.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    damn thing ate my post

    in short CE+awaken+spark pots = 44 sparks every 15 mins and chi skill is 7.5

    wind sheild exists so yes sins can easily hit 5 aps unsparked

    sins pick high def squishies here mainly clerics

    demon skill procs cannot be replicated by geni sage skills can
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    damn thing ate my post

    in short CE+awaken+spark pots = 44 sparks every 15 mins and chi skill is 7.5

    wind sheild exists so yes sins can easily hit 5 aps unsparked

    sins pick high def squishies here mainly clerics

    demon skill procs cannot be replicated by geni sage skills can

    It seem you are just naming chi gain skills over and over again... without realizing that anyone (demon or sage) will have access to them. Just cause demon can gain 44 sparks in 15 minutes using skills... doesn't mean sage can only get 7.5. Sage is going to get 44+7.5 for a total of 51.5 in the same 15 minutes.

    So I am going to try to spell out my point as clear as I can...

    1. As a sage archer... no demon archer on ANY of the PWI servers will be able to gain more chi then me in the same amount of time.
    2. A +12 bow will be more efficient at killing clerics or any robes then a +12 dagger in tw... and live to tell about it. An archer can drop a cleric from 32+ meters, before a sin an teleport to the target. And the great thing is... the archer is still 32+ meters away from the corpse and all of the corpse's **** off friends.
    3. Those who have no TW experience or experience should not make stupid assumptions about TW.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Elviron - Dreamweaver
    Elviron - Dreamweaver Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    @Gryphyyn

    While some choose sage for the love of the skills and its strengths in certain areas, I believe majority of them are simply going along with sage to take advantage of the 15 seconds of damage reduction at 5 aps when using fists/claws.

    Given the same equips, the refines, the bow, etc, and there were 2 archers with all lvl11 skills and lvl100 skills learnt and equally good gameplay, which would be more effective?

    At what refine/equipment level does one culti fair better than the other?

    In which situations does one culti fair better than the other?

    In my case, I found demon better due the very fact that with a mere 3.33 aps as base with fists, I can hit 5.0 aps under demon spark. Saves me the trouble of getting nirvana legs and tome till I have sufficient coins for it. Not the same for a sage. So at my lvl of fisting :P, its safe to say that while I have near perma spark capability with demon spark, sages wouldnt which means their damage reduction is not fully in effect. However this changes if one hits 5.0 aps in base. So which is better?....Its completely based on the archer youre questioning. At 5.0 aps base, I would say sage since the atk speed boost from demon spark is irrelevant.

    With bow, I hit a passive attack speed of 0.95. Demon spark I get to like 1.25 aps with my bow. End of 15 seconds I would have around 4 additional shots (20 chi) to an equally equipped sage archer. This might not be that relevant in the chi department but one cannot dismiss the possibility that the target has already died in those 4 additional shots.

    Now, Does the sage bow mastery compensate for the 4 additional shots (40~100k dmg...pve based)? I guess it would depend on the weapon and the refine of the weapon.

    So at what point of equipment level does the additional 15% weapon attack boost from sage bow mastery compensate for the dps of those additional shots due to demon spark attack speed boost or the additional attacks from a successfuly quickshot proc? Thats probably when going sage would be better overall.

    On a side note, I should perhaps make a sage archer and try him out to see the difference myself and put both points forward. b:laugh
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    It seem you are just naming chi gain skills over and over again... without realizing that anyone (demon or sage) will have access to them.
    duuuuuuuh this goes w/o saying

    Just cause demon can gain 44 sparks in 15 minutes using skills... doesn't mean sage can only get 7.5. Sage is going to get 44+7.5 for a total of 51.5 in the same 15 minutes.

    point is do you really NEED 44 sparks in 15 mins? thats already 1.5 BOA's per minute thats almost faster than you can find targets

    So I am going to try to spell out my point as clear as I can...

    1. As a sage archer... no demon archer on ANY of the PWI servers will be able to gain more chi then me in the same amount of time.

    duh point was that past a certain obscene point of chi its kinda pointless

    2. A +12 bow will be more efficient at killing clerics or any robes then a +12 dagger in tw... and live to tell about it. An archer can drop a cleric from 32+ meters, before a sin an teleport to the target. And the great thing is... the archer is still 32+ meters away from the corpse and all of the corpse's **** off friends.

    not argueing this just saying this is how it works on sanc

    3. Those who have no TW experience or experience should not make stupid assumptions about TW.

    people that think basic ideas are trump all arguements over basic math need to get their heads checked

    the reason i'm discussign chi only is because its been proven a bajilion times that demon > sage for sigle target killing has a better BoA and higher survivability, and that sage is far sexier in pve if you can get rank 8+claws

    the only things that are really open to debate are chi gain and its relevance in TW and how much range matters vs the crit there

    also for christs sake stop pulling highly specific situation out of your *** this is the archer forum use math saying "well i used this one and it worked so sage wins" or "i spent a LOT on my toon so sage wins" are by no means workable arguments...they're glorified fapping
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Boogiepanda - Raging Tide
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide Posts: 4,682 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    At the end of the day, if it's +12 bow vs +8 bow. +12 wins regardless of culti choice.
  • Gryphyyn - Heavens Tear
    Gryphyyn - Heavens Tear Posts: 150 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »
    At the end of the day, if it's +12 bow vs +8 bow. +12 wins regardless of culti choice.

    Spot on. As sad as it is, its very much true. As I said in my earlier post, if you can drop others (players and mobs, alike) like flies, it makes no difference what culti (demon or sage archer) you are - the skills and differences have become negligible. The only skill that has come to rise is how fast you can dish out your credit card...

    Gryphyyn
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Karma | ex-GoldDigrz | ex-xWaRx | ex-Reunited | ex-Tao
    Status: Semi-Active | Mood: Apathetic
    Gryphyyn (10x Archer) | Tyyphoon (10x Assassin) | Ryyft (8x Seeker)

    Fearless. | karmapwi.com
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    What variables am i missing here? Your soul crusher debuffs... my bow does that too... at a higher chance might i add. You got the extra accuracy... i got the 50% accuracy ring. I guess the only variable between our barrages is that you got the extra range but I got the extra damage.

    I keep seeing you say things that make me think you are talking with someone else. Here: I am a sage archer, not a demon archer.

    Anyways, other variables include (but are not limited to) other sources of damage, besides our weapons. But surely you knew that already?
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    people that think basic ideas are trump all arguements over basic math need to get their heads checked

    Its not about the "basic ideas" or "basic math". Its about real experience... and assumed ideas. Its painfully obvious that I twed with my archer… but what isn’t so obvious is that I also twed with 100+ sin, cleric, and veno.. along with 9x barb, wiz, and bm. I am stating what I see during tw and what worked during tw. There are no assumptions on my part… since I have done it or seem it done before. While on your part… I hope you have more then “basic math” to behind all your claims. This is like a kid who can calculate the perfect angle for a basket… but never been on the court himself. You can calculate all the math you want… but until you actually play the game (or in this case tw)… all your basic math means ****.

    So I have to ask… with all your “basic math” skills… have you ever played a demon or sage archer? I sure have… both cults too. And all your examples of awaken this and awaken that. There is maybe 1 awaken archer for 5 blood vow archer. And there are maybe a dozen or so vow archers on a given server. So your example can only be applied to maybe 2-3 archers… and that is if all of them are demon… talk about limited perspective.

    Chi gain (for archer barrages) during tw isn’t about who can gain the most chi over 15 minutes or even 4 minutes… its about who can get 2 sparks up when the situation calls. And at the said situation, you might not have the leisure of spark pots or even genie energy… or awaken. While it could be said that a given demon could have 3 sparks and a sage can have none. All things aside… the threshold for sage barrage is 1.5 sparks… while demon is at 2… and that’s where the advantage is.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    damn thing keeps killing quotes

    anyways that said nerd can then build a robot arm to throw the ball for perfect hots every time

    sage skill is a near 3 second chan so for reasons you ranted about earlier (omg 5 second barrage you fail) CE would be better there

    awaken is pricy but so is a +12 bow

    your example is again situational both archers get 2 sparks back in under a minute
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    damn thing keeps killing quotes

    anyways that said nerd can then build a robot arm to throw the ball for perfect hots every time

    sage skill is a near 3 second chan so for reasons you ranted about earlier (omg 5 second barrage you fail) CE would be better there

    awaken is pricy but so is a +12 bow

    your example is again situational both archers get 2 sparks back in under a minute

    thats the best you got... a robot? i guess you need something to occupy your time while others are twing.

    my example is situational? aleast it applies to more archer then the 2-3 on each server who have blood vow.

    its been 2 pages and no demon archer even tried to defend your point... so i think i am done here. There is no point in arguing archer tactics with a bm who have over 30 times the post as to kills. just going to be all talk and nothing else. i guess i'll see you on the courts if you ever get that robot built.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    thats the best you got... a robot? i guess you need something to occupy your time while others are twing.

    my example is situational? aleast it applies to more archer then the 2-3 on each server who have blood vow.

    its been 2 pages and no demon archer even tried to defend your point... so i think i am done here. There is no point in arguing archer tactics with a bm who have over 30 times the post as to kills. just going to be all talk and nothing else. i guess i'll see you on the courts if you ever get that robot built.

    and your arguements apply to archers that dont have a +12 8jun?

    and yes its situational

    because it requires between 150 and 170 shi (any more and you may as well just auto somone for the chi), requires a skill you will be spaming on cooldown to be ready, requires a set target group at that time that nobody shoots you as you stand there just setting up(unlikey) that no stuns hit you (roars can get sporadic late TW) and that your target does not move out of range, oh and that CE/awaken(if you have it) and spark pots are all on cooldown

    am i denying sages chi advantage...no

    is it useful...yes

    is it actually relavent 99% of the time...oh hell no

    and really...you cant say a basketball robot wouldent be win
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    damn thing keeps killing quotes

    I had that problem also.

    I fixed it by replacing all apostrophes with ' and the special ... character with three dots, in my quoted material.

    (You can probably just edit your posts -- the text should be in there, but hidden, if I remember right, when this happens.)
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I had that problem also.

    I fixed it by replacing all apostrophes with ' and the special ... character with three dots, in my quoted material.

    (You can probably just edit your posts -- the text should be in there, but hidden, if I remember right, when this happens.)

    ah ty
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    ZzZzZz I havent bothered to read the walls of text, but as far as TW is concerned, if the PvE servers dont have their archers zhenning as much as possible, there is no way the PvE servers would stand a chance against lost city in an inter-server TW.


    1) Demon archers > Sage Archers in TW for the simple reason of using Barrage of Arrows.


    Barrage of arrows is a big "SHOOT IT" sign. Reduced damage isn't going to help you when your sealed/stunned, etc. You need to deal as much damage as possible in the span of 12 seconds achieved by:


    a) Wings of Grace
    b) Ironguard Powder
    c) Open Barrage of Arrows on a nice DD target which will survive (on lost city that is Shinzoko).




    2) The rest of the time in TW you'll be focus firing down heavy hitters and generally picking people off.


    a) +10% crit from Stunning arrow / Sharpened Tooth Arrow help
    b) More attacks from an increased attack rate help
    c) Never missing when your opponite is about to die and also about to be able to "tick back to full health" is absolutely essential.



    If you have the time to use anything else besides:

    1) Sharpened Tooth
    2) Blood Vow
    3) Awaken
    4) Stunning Arrow
    5) Winged Shell
    6) Rebuff
    7) Quickshot
    8) Regular hitting
    9) Barraging
    10) Thunder SHocking
    11) Lightning Striking

    You are doing something horribly wrong in TW (at least nowdays since everyone has rank 8).




    Chi pots are nice, but awaken is better (Despite its long cooldown). Chi pots will get you to be able to use barrage, but you wont be able to guarantee 12 seconds of uninterupted zhen. In such a case demon clearly beats a sage archer as 2.5 seconds < 3 seconds.






    As for 1v1 PvP, as Fleuri stated its very situational, but still at the end of the day, if your facing targets with rediculous pdef and HP numbers it doesn't matter how hard you hit, because 2 hits will never kill them.



    You need to be able to go for the long haul - normal shots to eat away at charms, and you need the "never miss" lightning strike to kill them before they tick.





    But when it comes down to it, most people from other servers in the international version will never know why demon is such a big thing until they come to Lost City. If they could stick Essence or Kamisama from Lost City onto another server for a year to experience what we talk about, there would be less debate on this sage/demon choice.
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    ZzZzZz I havent bothered to read the walls of text, but as far as TW is concerned, if the PvE servers dont have their archers zhenning as much as possible, there is no way the PvE servers would stand a chance against lost city in an inter-server TW.

    That would probably already be the case because of economics. Though we do have some big spenders on the PVE servers.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    1) Demon archers > Sage Archers in TW for the simple reason of using Barrage of Arrows.

    ...

    Barrage of arrows is a big "SHOOT IT" sign. Reduced damage isn't going to help you when your sealed/stunned, etc. You need to deal as much damage as possible in the span of 12 seconds achieved by:

    a) Wings of Grace
    b) Ironguard Powder
    c) Open Barrage of Arrows on a nice DD target which will survive (on lost city that is Shinzoko).

    Do you really mean to say that, on lost city, you have people stupid enough to stand within range of barrage (that does enough damage to matter) for an entire 12 seconds?
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    2) The rest of the time in TW you'll be focus firing down heavy hitters and generally picking people off.

    Among other things, yes...
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    If you have the time to use anything else besides:

    1) Sharpened Tooth
    2) Blood Vow
    3) Awaken
    4) Stunning Arrow
    5) Winged Shell
    6) Rebuff
    7) Quickshot
    8) Regular hitting
    9) Barraging
    10) Thunder SHocking
    11) Lightning Striking

    You are doing something horribly wrong in TW (at least nowdays since everyone has rank 8).

    Ok, but you are clearly thinking of a demon archer with a pre-determined set of targets.

    For example, if you tried to limit a sage archer facing a comparably geared assassin with to your set of rules, she could be in serious trouble in what should otherwise be an easy battle.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Chi pots are nice, but awaken is better (Despite its long cooldown).

    Personally.... I typically use several chi pots between awaken cooldowns. And I will also use them when I want to keep awaken ready for use.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    As for 1v1 PvP, as Fleuri stated its very situational, but still at the end of the day, if your facing targets with rediculous pdef and HP numbers it doesn't matter how hard you hit, because 2 hits will never kill them.

    Ok, but, again, you are thinking "demon" not "sage".
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    You need to be able to go for the long haul - normal shots to eat away at charms, and you need the "never miss" lightning strike to kill them before they tick.

    That is not a need, and you are thinking of a very specific battle, also.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    But when it comes down to it, most people from other servers in the international version will never know why demon is such a big thing until they come to Lost City. If they could stick Essence or Kamisama from Lost City onto another server for a year to experience what we talk about, there would be less debate on this sage/demon choice.

    Do you have any good sage archers on lost city? From some of the comments you made (like that "2 hits will never kill them" thing), I rather doubt you do. (For example: sage stun + 1.05 aps = 4 normal attacks before stun wears off, maybe 5.) Edit: and, yes, absolute domain would still work, so that means your archer needs to be good enough to get absolute domain on cooldown...
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Barrage of arrows is a big "SHOOT IT" sign. Reduced damage isn't going to help you when your sealed/stunned, etc. You need to deal as much damage as possible in the span of 12 seconds achieved by:


    a) Wings of Grace
    b) Ironguard Powder
    c) Open Barrage of Arrows on a nice DD target which will survive (on lost city that is Shinzoko).

    I think that by itself is enough to prove that you are an absolute moron. If your first claim of reduced damage "isn't going to help"... then why are you using wing of grace? Wings of grace takes time to cast and it draws attention. If you really are set on getting the 12 seconds of immune to damage barrage... instant cast alacrity then ironguard is the way to go.

    If you are from lost city... then i am actually beginning to think people on lost city is a bit slow in the head. Which idiot stands for a full 12 seconds in a barrage... neverless next to their team-mates. And which archer would wait for 3 sparks to barrage. I know personally when i barrage a bind post... i don't run up to it... and be like hey wait a second guys... let me set up wing of grace before barraging you... so could you stay where you are... and if its not too much trouble... could you look the other way so you don't see me flashing a big bird in the air for a full 3 seconds.

    angellicdeity wrote: »
    As for 1v1 PvP, as Fleuri stated its very situational, but still at the end of the day, if your facing targets with rediculous pdef and HP numbers it doesn't matter how hard you hit, because 2 hits will never kill them.

    And you do know that if a sage archer can't kill someone in 2 hits... a demon can't either right? Sages have extra phy damage due to bow mastery... and extra fire damage due to fire arrow. Both of these damages are further modified (increased) by attack levels. So in esscense attack level benefit a sage more then a demon.


    And aren't you the guy who made himself looked like a complete idiot during the take aim argurment?
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    his point wasent that demon would 2 shot...it was that archers do not 2 shot anyone with endgame gear so the higher crit and attack rate of demon become far more usefull than sages range chi and 1% more base dps...which is 100% true

    people run out of BOA = faster BoA hits more times and kills more people

    these are those "openly accepted reasons why demon castrates sage in pvp and tw"
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    his point wasent that demon would 2 shot...it was that archers do not 2 shot anyone with endgame gear so the higher crit and attack rate of demon become far more usefull than sages range chi and 1% more base dps...which is 100% true

    people run out of BOA = faster BoA hits more times and kills more people

    these are those "openly accepted reasons why demon castrates sage in pvp and tw"

    Yes, certainly.

    And, honestly, I kind of like that most people do not understand how sage archers work. But I might be going back into PvP type situations with the genesis expansion, so I think I will shut up now.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    his point wasent that demon would 2 shot...it was that archers do not 2 shot anyone with endgame gear so the higher crit and attack rate of demon become far more usefull than sages range chi and 1% more base dps...which is 100% true

    people run out of BOA = faster BoA hits more times and kills more people

    these are those "openly accepted reasons why demon castrates sage in pvp and tw"

    I guess no one is paying attention when i said an end game weapon archer can easily crit 10k on g15/g16 armor robes.

    There are end game archer with close (over) to 20k min patk with 70+ atk levels. Since you like math so much... let me run this for you.

    20k (low end) patk with 70 attack level comes out to be about 34k base attack. 34k base attack would give about 8.5k pvp damage... which would come out to be 17k crit damage (before factoring in armor). any robe on the receiving end of such damage better be fully buffed and refined... with possibily def shards. And this is the low end of an end game archer damage... and not factoring in fire arrow (which could top another 2k mag damage). To top it off... there is archers running around with over 100 attack levels.

    If any one of you non archers would ever go to a tw or two... you would notice even plume shelled clerics would die to archers. And its not a good idea to take the word of a no name (especially one who have a history of giving false information based on theory alone) as actual practice.

    edit: and i do believe sage mastery gives a bit over 3% more damage over demon mastery. so at least try to get your facts and math straight.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I guess no one is paying attention when i said an end game weapon archer can easily crit 10k on g15/g16 armor robes.

    There are end game archer with close (over) to 20k min patk with 70+ atk levels. Since you like math so much... let me run this for you.

    20k (low end) patk with 70 attack level comes out to be about 34k base attack. 34k base attack would give about 8.5k pvp damage... which would come out to be 17k crit damage (before factoring in armor). any robe on the receiving end of such damage better be fully buffed and refined... with possibily def shards. And this is the low end of an end game archer damage... and not factoring in fire arrow (which could top another 2k mag damage). To top it off... there is archers running around with over 100 attack levels.

    If any one of you non archers would ever go to a tw or two... you would notice even plume shelled clerics would die to archers. And its not a good idea to take the word of a no name (especially one who have a history of giving false information based on theory alone) as actual practice.

    edit: and i do believe sage mastery gives a bit over 3% more damage over demon mastery. so at least try to get your facts and math straight.

    *points to math* no its 1% more dps

    20k base phys damage = 1.25-1.5k a ht non crit on a 10k phys def robe so i'm assumeign the people you fight have **** gear
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    *points to math* no its 1% more dps

    20k base phys damage = 1.25-1.5k a ht non crit on a 10k phys def robe so i'm assumeign the people you fight have **** gear

    I get 1449 damage. And I should add another 200 points for sage blazing arrow (because I am assuming a +12 rank 8 with two garnet gems and 10k fire defense). Then, if I multiply by 1.3 for jones, I get 2143 damage, or if he has diamond of tiger all through his armor make that 2572. ...

    Now... if that was 1k physical defense, this would become 4016 damage (I am still assuming 10k fire defense). And if we add skill damage on top of that we could approach 5k non crit which would let us get near 10k crit. But genie effects (frenzy or extreme poison or something) might also work?
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I get 1449 damage. And I should add another 200 points for sage blazing arrow (because I am assuming a +12 rank 8 with two garnet gems and 10k fire defense). Then, if I multiply by 1.3 for jones, I get 2143 damage, or if he has diamond of tiger all through his armor make that 2572. ...

    Now... if that was 1k physical defense, this would become 4016 damage (I am still assuming 10k fire defense). And if we add skill damage on top of that we could approach 5k non crit which would let us get near 10k crit. But genie effects (frenzy or extreme poison or something) might also work?

    i don't think any archer (tw capable) have an attack level of 30 anymore... there are ones that double that... and ones that triple that... i believe there are archers (notice the plural) that even quadruple that. off the top of my head an archer can have a max attack level of 135, 38-40% passive crit, and debuff bow all in the same build. debuff on the target helps... but keep in mind that crits are not always double damage... its especially noticeable as crit rates go up.

    and i am not even going to directly respond to the bm idiot anymore. its more then proven that sage bow mastery would give 3%+ more damage then demon bow mastery. for the sake of doing calculations in my head... i am going to assume 3% additional damage. given an archer with 70 attack levels... the 3% damage advantage will become a 5% damage advantage.
    now lets factor in fire arrow. sage fire arrow gives 10% more weapon damage then demon. given a end game bow that damage would come out to about 300 (average) more fire damage. with a 70 attack level... that 300 extra fire damage would become 500. 500 extra fire damage over a base of 20k damage would come out to 2.5% extra damage.
    so over all we'll be looking at over 7.5% (since i rounded down in all my calculations) extra damage purely from the difference between sage and demon damage modifications... assuming an attack level of 70 (which is more common then you would think in today's competitive archer world).

    now now... i wonder if fire arrow also works during barrages...
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    10k pdef is really average for wizards, it's not very hard to obtain that with 3 pdef buffs. As for clerics, ~10k pdef might be where they stand with good gears, but that's what Plume Shell is for. You would seriously expect around 20k pdef on well geared wizards.

    Offensive equipment available to archers have become a lot more...accessible while defensive equipment pretty much stayed the same. There is no significant pdef increase from TT99 to Nirvana Second Cast for arcanes, there is not much more rich robes can do for pdef after they have sharded all g11 shards, and arcane armor refines like **** anyways. On the other hand, Nirvana upgrades, Jone's Blessing, R9, all that stuff is now available.

    @Kiyoshi

    Fire arrows do work for Barrage. I think the only thing it doesn't work for is Winged Pledge
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty

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