(attempted)POLL: about venomancer class...

Quilue - Sanctuary

xxxdsmer wrote: »

and as i've said before, i've seen it work in open world pvp on numerous occasions. it dosent matter how much you try to troll or get a flamewar started, until a developer comes in this thread, tells me i'm insane and was hallucinating, i know what i saw as fact.

and it is still my belief that these skills should work everywhere in the game, they are in the skilltree for a reason.

otherwise lets take out stuns+dragon from the bm skilltree for open world pvp too.
and heals out of the cleric's skilltree for open world pvp.
and lets make true form and beast kings inspiration not work while outside of SZ in the world map.
and i could go on and on, including a 3.33 or lower APS cap and no skills or anything can increase the APS higher than that.

if its in the skilltree of the classes, it should work (with the exception of knockback effects... that could really be misused lol... will of the phoenix and knock back 30 people at once) but veno skills.. they're not as OP as people would like everyone to think. you see a big green animation and a pulsating white ring around a veno? gtf away from the veno for 15 seconds or die... just like you'd rush **** over to a wizard you see channeling black ice dragon strike to try and stun 'em to interupt the skill, or an assassin'd try canceling it with knife throw... except in this case you just stun the veno and walk away for the 15 seconds rather than stand there like an idiot swinging away killing yourself on a skill that costs the veno 2 sparks just like any other ultimate in the game.


and FYI: my point of view on this would be the same even if my "main" weren't a veno.

it doesn't work in open PK, it's never worked in open PK, you're blind

Kite the Hooded veno that chain stuns with a nix, good luck with that.

Jadsia - Lost City

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Venos have purge, amp, sharptooth if sage, AOE seal/freeze...

Even without reflect, we're still plenty good in PVP.

What good are those skills when they have a casting time longer than a 5 APS permasparked sin takes you out or if a BM can stun for several seconds and pound on a veno. There are no real pet skills that can help us in these situations for the average veno either. In fact almost all veno skills have casting times that allow venos to be pummeled before they can be used. Only skill that has no real casting times are summer sprint and changing to fox form. Bramble Hood and guard are fast casting but of little use against the power of a permasparked 5 APS now.

That's the argument.

Oh yeah, Bramble hood and guard did work in PvP at one time but there was so much QQ that it was nerfed. I remember using it a loooooong time ago against idiot BMs. Also, one little detail the "OMFG the veno's one and ONLY defensive buff skill is overpowered in open PvP" crowd seemed to forget to mention is that the bramble guard protection can be cast on any and all players....so I guess that means EVERYONE can be overpowered if buffed with bramble and it reflected in PvP too.

Quilue - Sanctuary

who perma-sparks in PvP? I'm starting to think you never actually PK.

Kinnacat - Lost City

I submitted a ticket to suggest that bramble hood works in PvP. I'm on a PvP server, and my skill doesn't work in PvP? WTH? Of course I got no answer, so I want to say thanks to the one who started this poll. (even though I wonder if it will have any effect... b:sad)

For those who think venos would be overpowered since they have nix already:

1- A veno with a nix is in no way overpowered. Why?

a) My nix's favorite past time is watching me die. He loves to stare at different stuff while I desperately try to defend myself. b:irritated

b) Even though the stun is supposed to be 80% chance of success, my nix fails 80% of the time. I almost fell off my chair the other day when he finally stunned someone... b:surrender

Am I the only one experiencing these two problems? x.x

2- BMs have dragon, wizzies hit hard, archers hit hard too, clerics can sleep and run/buff+kick your butt, psy also hit hard, etc... Now for the worst of the worst: SINS. They crit like hell and stun lock. So why is a veno's bramble hood disactivated in PvP ON A PvP SERVER?! Explain pls...


(btw I was too lazy to read every post, so what I said might have been mentioned already, sorry.)

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Kinnacat - Lost City wrote: »

I submitted a ticket to suggest that bramble hood works in PvP. I'm on a PvP server, and my skill doesn't work in PvP? WTH? Of course I got no answer, so I want to say thanks to the one who started this poll. (even though I wonder if it will have any effect... b:sad)

For those who think venos would be overpowered since they have nix already:

1- A veno with a nix is in no way overpowered. Why?

a) My nix's favorite past time is watching me die. He loves to stare at different stuff while I desperately try to defend myself. b:irritated

b) Even though the stun is supposed to be 80% chance of success, my nix fails 80% of the time. I almost fell off my chair the other day when he finally stunned someone... b:surrender

Am I the only one experiencing these two problems? x.x

2- BMs have dragon, wizzies hit hard, archers hit hard too, clerics can sleep and run/buff+kick your butt, psy also hit hard, etc... Now for the worst of the worst: SINS. They crit like hell and stun lock. So why is a veno's bramble hood disactivated in PvP ON A PvP SERVER?! Explain pls...


(btw I was too lazy to read every post, so what I said might have been mentioned already, sorry.)

Do you want explain? Because it's PW. It not bringing money like -interval do. So why should it works? All PW is broken especially balance between classes and PVE.

Lyritha - Heavens Tear

I do not think it is anymore over powered than say stealth or other silly things in the game... however it does reflect the damage back to the attacker in Dragon Temple and Cube I believe... at least 100% confirmed this in Dragon Temple.

So yes it should reflect back as the attacker should react by uh not punching the target anymore... just like you are stuck dead in the water if you are put to sleep or stun... but at that point it is the attackers choice to continue to their death because the skill has a pretty obvious animation that should put up a red flag of : "maybe I shouldn't punch that..."

-The BM has the back dash or various skills that can be used to react if it were to deflect back such as stuns or seals that cause no damage.

-Assassin could just stealth again.

-Ranged classes are not effected by this

-A normal spec barb isn't going to be hitting nearly as fast as said other classes and if said barb doesn't have enough HP to take a few deflects back the person playing it should uninstall the game.

Arisira - Lost City

If ur going to make a post about Bramble why dont u make a post on the buffs on Sins and Psys with Purge they dont get debuffed at all lets go on that GMs what where u thinking having them have buffs that are not able to be purged by a veno

Purge= all Positive Buffs go bye bye why dont it work on sins and psys then.

threepointone

Arisira - Lost City wrote: »

If ur going to make a post about Bramble why dont u make a post on the buffs on Sins and Psys with Purge they dont get debuffed at all lets go on that GMs what where u thinking having them have buffs that are not able to be purged by a veno

Purge= all Positive Buffs go bye bye why dont it work on sins and psys then.

Because some Psy and Sin buffs last for a certain amount of time, and whether you log off or get purged, they will stay on for that amount of time.

Quilue - Sanctuary

You know there is a buff that returns magic damage, and that doesn't work in open PvP either.

Xoria - Sanctuary

In my opinion, venos should have the skill work as they say they would in PvP. I want to say I have seen Guard reflect damage in PK, but after seeing that it works in duels and not PK, I can't be 100% sure I have seen it work in PK.

With +10 being so 'easy' to acquire, as well as the recently released easy-to-obtain R8 and R9, venos are fairly underpowered.

A veno's main niche is lack of power, faster channeling and cool down, automatically, and the assistance of a pet. Nixes were pretty well feared in the casters' realm- even wizards for a while. Now it's not uncommon for even a cleric to one or two shot a nix, let alone a wiz or a psychic. The higher the refines of the other classes, the more a veno's pet gets left in the dust.

They are stagnant and cannot progress and it's a flaw in the current system.

That is, if PW was going for balance, as they are obviously not going for. Until pets can adopt a system like Ragnarok's homunculus' armor/ equipment or super broken skills/ program- able AI, veno's pets will forever be a laughing stock.

Not having bramble guard reflect damage back is just another nail in the coffin for the humble veno.

Yulk_owns - Lost City

Regenbogen - Lost City wrote: »

venomancers are only good if you dont just get 1shoted by the other class so...
after rep sale...
b:shutup

Even from rep sale, not even r9 people are scary. Not working

You want reflect back? Its only effecting melee damage... Venoes getting one shotted? ROFL fail.

Bramble hood (damage reduction), parastic nova, OP debuff, OP bugged pet bleed, pounce, soul regeneration, defense gain from fox form, p.atk gain from melee mastery, feral concentration. (serious!)

I have seen a decent veno own a 5.0 sin in duel with just bramble hood in west arch (lost city)

Lyritha - Heavens Tear

Xoria - Sanctuary wrote: »

In my opinion, venos should have the skill work as they say they would in PvP. I want to say I have seen Guard reflect damage in PK, but after seeing that it works in duels and not PK, I can't be 100% sure I have seen it work in PK.

With +10 being so 'easy' to acquire, as well as the recently released easy-to-obtain R8 and R9, venos are fairly underpowered.

A veno's main niche is lack of power, faster channeling and cool down, automatically, and the assistance of a pet. Nixes were pretty well feared in the casters' realm- even wizards for a while. Now it's not uncommon for even a cleric to one or two shot a nix, let alone a wiz or a psychic. The higher the refines of the other classes, the more a veno's pet gets left in the dust.

They are stagnant and cannot progress and it's a flaw in the current system.

That is, if PW was going for balance, as they are obviously not going for. Until pets can adopt a system like Ragnarok's homunculus' armor/ equipment or super broken skills/ program- able AI, veno's pets will forever be a laughing stock.

Not having bramble guard reflect damage back is just another nail in the coffin for the humble veno.

I wouldn't say that you still get the damage reduction and ability to reduce magic or physical defense to 0 as well as purge sparks... it's not a nail in the coffin just something that needs to be fixed.

Jadsia - Lost City

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Do you want explain? Because it's PW. It not bringing money like -interval do. So why should it works? All PW is broken especially balance between classes and PVE.

A veno's bramble is the one and ONLY defensive buff we have. Should our only defensive buff at least work in PvP? Well, DUH.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

I think that veno bramble skills should work in open PvP, but with an extra factor of 4 damage reduction applied to the reflected damage (and no escalation from white to pink named from bramble damage, and normal protections).

So instead of 60% damage reflection, open PvP damage reflection would be 15%.

Yulk_owns - Lost City

Xoria - Sanctuary wrote: »

In my opinion, venos should have the skill work as they say they would in PvP. I want to say I have seen Guard reflect damage in PK, but after seeing that it works in duels and not PK, I can't be 100% sure I have seen it work in PK.

With +10 being so 'easy' to acquire, as well as the recently released easy-to-obtain R8 and R9, venos are fairly underpowered.

What I have bolded is a huge example of just crying. So venomancers are underpowered when everyone else +10 and the veno still uses +2 gears? That is like a sin QQing about assassins being underpowered because of them being ownt by 50+ levels above them. Why don't you refine just like everyone else?

Xoria - Sanctuary wrote: »

A veno's main niche is lack of power, faster channeling and cool down, automatically, and the assistance of a pet. Nixes were pretty well feared in the casters' realm- even wizards for a while. Now it's not uncommon for even a cleric to one or two shot a nix, let alone a wiz or a psychic. The higher the refines of the other classes, the more a veno's pet gets left in the dust.

Venoes are not DD, they still hurt always, have and always will. You have more than one defensive skill. Archers have only 1 defensive skill, sins only have 1 defensive skill, barbs are predictable, BMs are weak in magic defense. Wizards are slow, psy is really squishy, clerics are easy to take down thanks to purge. Another example of doing it wrong. Their debuffs are what make venoes not underpowered, broken. Fox wallop that venoes say suck, I own any caster with it. Use fox form for casters. You have self heal, soul regeneration, life leech, fox form, bramblehood damage reduction, immune to attacks for few more, why you want more? Also learn how to purge... Are you even using those skills? You do not need a certain pet to beat people or even a pet for that matter. If you don't know how to do that, I suggest you uninstall PW.

Xoria - Sanctuary wrote: »

They are stagnant and cannot progress and it's a flaw in the current system.

That is, if PW was going for balance, as they are obviously not going for. Until pets can adopt a system like Ragnarok's homunculus' armor/ equipment or super broken skills/ program- able AI, veno's pets will forever be a laughing stock.

Not having bramble guard reflect damage back is just another nail in the coffin for the humble veno.

Asking to give pets armor and possibly weapons will make things unbalanced than everything else, I can imagine venoes soloing World bosses while everyone else have to refine way high and team up on bosses and owning everyone in 1 hit making that bugged flesh ream kill people in 1 tick. Making bramble effective in open PVP? What? You want someone to wipe your bum for you? Venoes without pets are basically balanced. Stop being spoiled, and cash shop yourself or avoid +10ers and stop QQing. Its just one glitch, suck it up.

Edit: oh and change color font please, at least make your QQs readable.

I have played veno without pet, and I saw how OP they were in PVE and PVP with pets. Making venoes more OP? NTY. Which is why I skip venoes in duels, and if venoes get buffed, I would quit PVP server.

Lyritha - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I wouldn't say that you still get the damage reduction and ability to reduce magic or physical defense to 0 as well as purge sparks... it's not a nail in the coffin just something that needs to be fixed.

True.

Takumeme - Dreamweaver

If you're going to argue against veno brambles, look at psys >.> Is ours really worse?

Lyritha - Heavens Tear

doesn't matter I have my psychic on a separate account I can have both b:chuckle

Now maybe that Earthguard thingy will have some interesting buffs...

Roin - Harshlands

Sorry but i think it would be very OP if it worked in normal pvp...

yeah it sucks but alot of classes have skills that work like that i have played a veno for a little and every time someone physical wanted to duel me and i still had bramble on most of the time i dont even need to attack its just sad... If wiz/archer/bm knockback skills all worked normal in pvp think how overpowerd that will be?

when playing on my bm i kill myself faster then i kill veno somehow if i attack them with bramble without them even attacking

now think about it guys if it worked in open pvp it would make the game so much more unbalanced then it is right now all of the phys classes will be about useless if there is a veno around and no one wants all of there hard work to get good gear on this game to be wasted by the fact that the wpn you worked so hard on will just make you kill yourself in 1-3 hits b:sad

now if they did something like reduce it to 5-15% like other games have it i would think its fine for pvp still very helpfull and it wont make the game so much more unbalanced


and can someone tell me why they think a veno is Underpowered? all i have ever needed to do was stun purge/amp and with my fly's bleed im at a huge advantage already with that most champs that use la/robes are all ready dead or 1 hit away from dieing and lets face it without there buffs most classes die way 2 easy =}

I_Love_Pets - Heavens Tear

lmao srsly the skill itself was designed to work how it was made IT DID work in pvp during the yr of 08 and begining of 09 they changed it due to mass QQ's about it being broken when it returned 200% of both mag and phy dmg(including ranged)

the skill was also nerfed and removed from pvp because of the complaints the sad thing is they make a identical skill for psychic that is just the same as hood used to be and last for god knows howmuch longer lmfao!
the psy IS more powerful due to soul force lvl at times.
Hood itself WAS written as to reflect back 200% of dmg and reduce it by 75% so basicly it reduced the dmg you recieved by 75% while doing 200% of what you would have been hit for to the attacker.example:your (suppose to be hit for 100 dmg) you take 25 dmg and reflect 200dmg.this included rnged mag or melee hence it was OP in that sense.
They changed it to melee only an that was fine but removed it from pvp and made the exact same skill for a psy explaine that 1(which does work in pvp) O.o some1 explaine how that makes sense and no1 complained about it o.O like they did for a veno? IJS that any decent **** and such based in the 08 as to how the game was designed went out the window with the pwi version because of the mass complaints and the I want I want now syndrom.
Frankly hood itself was not OP the fact that people didnt like that you could HOOD an wait till about 15 seconds or **** urself is the thing people didnt like. As it is, if they are that stupid to do that then that was their own fault. In 08 people learned how to kill a hooded veno -looks at the yr 2010 an see's cryin nubs who cant learn a dam thing in general because they want it handed on a silver platter with their credit cards- an thats the sad thing lmfao

I_Love_Pets - Heavens Tear

lmao srsly the skill itself was designed to work how it was made IT DID work in pvp during the yr of 08 and begining of 09 they changed it due to mass QQ's about it being broken when it returned 200% of both mag and phy dmg(including ranged)

the skill was also nerfed and removed from pvp because of the complaints the sad thing is they make a identical skill for psychic that is just the same as hood used to be and last for god knows howmuch longer lmfao!
the psy IS more powerful due to soul force lvl at times.
Hood itself WAS written as to reflect back 200% of dmg and reduce it by 75% so basicly it reduced the dmg you recieved by 75% while doing 200% of what you would have been hit for to the attacker.example:your (suppose to be hit for 100 dmg) you take 25 dmg and reflect 200dmg.this included rnged mag or melee hence it was OP in that sense.
They changed it to melee only an that was fine but removed it from pvp and made the exact same skill for a psy explaine that 1(which does work in pvp) O.o some1 explaine how that makes sense and no1 complained about it o.O like they did for a veno? IJS that any decent **** and such based in the 08 as to how the game was designed went out the window with the pwi version because of the mass complaints and the I want I want now syndrom.
Frankly hood itself was not OP the fact that people didnt like that you could HOOD an wait till about 15 seconds or **** urself is the thing people didnt like. As it is, if they are that stupid to do that then that was their own fault. In 08 people learned how to kill a hooded veno -looks at the yr 2010 an see's cryin nubs who cant learn a dam thing in general because they want it handed on a silver platter with their credit cards- an thats the sad thing lmfao

Quilue - Sanctuary

Takumeme - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If you're going to argue against veno brambles, look at psys >.> Is ours really worse?

It seems like Psy reflect is based on the Psy's refines. The more this caster works on his/her gear, the more damage this buff deals. A Psy with full +12 gear would have about 55k Soul Force, dealing about 4.4k raw damage per hit with Soul of Vengeance, a BM with +12 axes would also deal about 12k damage with axes.

That's very different from Veno reflect: the more the attacker works on his/her gear, the more damage he/she suffers. The same BM with +12 axes gets returned for 7.5k hitting a Brambled target. Even if the BM were to use +12 fists instead, it's about 9k base damage, which reflects 4.8k - still more than Soul of Vengeance with 55k Soul Force.

Maybe Bramble is reduced by target defense while Soul of Vengeance is not? All the numbers is raw damage, I don't personally know any Psys with high Soul Force, so you tell me when you find out. There's also the small detail that one buff has a 10min cd, while the other has 1s cd.

NiaJade - Harshlands

drjiggle wrote: »

But making it work sometimes and not all the time is both pointless and confusing.

Too true..

Need a cheat sheet: "Sometimes this skill does this ....but not if your this .... or that... and sometimes if your doing ... the other - but not on a Wednesday..."

Takumeme - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

It seems like Psy reflect is based on the Psy's refines. The more this caster works on his/her gear, the more damage this buff deals. A Psy with full +12 gear would have about 55k Soul Force, dealing about 4.4k raw damage per hit with Soul of Vengeance, a BM with +12 axes would also deal about 12k damage with axes.

That's very different from Veno reflect: the more the attacker works on his/her gear, the more damage he/she suffers. The same BM with +12 axes gets returned for 7.5k hitting a Brambled target. Even if the BM were to use +12 fists instead, it's about 9k base damage, which reflects 4.8k - still more than Soul of Vengeance with 55k Soul Force.

Maybe Bramble is reduced by target defense while Soul of Vengeance is not? All the numbers is raw damage, I don't personally know any Psys with high Soul Force, so you tell me when you find out. There's also the small detail that one buff has a 10min cd, while the other has 1s cd.

The thing is, though, Psys can be just as bad, if not worse. I'm married to a Psy, I KNOW how much they hurt considering it reflects EVERYTHING. I just don't think it to be fair to punish Venos while handing Psys skills that make people QQ just as much. Either way, all classes have something in PvP that people don't see as fair, I don't think it's right to kinda just single out Venos due to a supposed glitch (mag and phys+ranged) according to previous posts, at least. But hey, they're just too lazy to fix glitches so they simply take everything out completely.

Dragono - Lost City

I voted for the first thing and I dont even have a Veno ^^

Yes Bramble Guard and Bramble Rage is getting on my nerves sometimes but every class have skills that are unfair in PvP sometimes

Other classes are much stronger in PvP so let the Venos be Venos b:cute

Lyritha - Heavens Tear

Takumeme - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The thing is, though, Psys can be just as bad, if not worse. I'm married to a Psy, I KNOW how much they hurt considering it reflects EVERYTHING. I just don't think it to be fair to punish Venos while handing Psys skills that make people QQ just as much. Either way, all classes have something in PvP that people don't see as fair, I don't think it's right to kinda just single out Venos due to a supposed glitch (mag and phys+ranged) according to previous posts, at least. But hey, they're just too lazy to fix glitches so they simply take everything out completely.

not so much a punishment I think it is more so a precaution... lets say veno is heavy armor with interval. Any other melee that touches it would die from 3.0 APS (provided use of magic sword) and bramble hood deflect. Arcane on the other hand it gimps but then again your purge and magic damage should solve that trouble. The problem cannot be solved either way.... it would have to function differently based on armor to make it not ridiculous.

Takumeme - Dreamweaver

Lyritha - Heavens Tear wrote: »

not so much a punishment I think it is more so a precaution... lets say veno is heavy armor with interval. Any other melee that touches it would die from 3.0 APS (provided use of magic sword) and bramble hood deflect. Arcane on the other hand it gimps but then again your purge and magic damage should solve that trouble. The problem cannot be solved either way.... it would have to function differently based on armor to make it not ridiculous.

Maybe then people wouldn't like interval so much b:chuckle I still say Bramble Guard should at least work, I can live with Hood only reducing the damage.

Oh, and a Psy can do the same. SoV, SoR, Soul Burn. I'm sure people would prefer that over Hood 0:

Jenovadeath - Lost City

Technichally it would benifit the venos to not go for heavy armour if they worked in open world pvp the higher the phys def they have the less damage u do hence the less damage returned to them is less cause they're not doing the same amount of damage as they would to a robed class which I think is how a veno was supposed to be built other builds are almost entirely depentant upon having a nix to put out the amount of damage it takes to get down past a charm tick on some classes like heavy refined bms with 15-20k hp +5 aps.

There was at one point when venos were called wood mages and they could single hit u for a good deal of damage with ranged mag spells but as it has been said they're counter abilities for when a mellee was able to get withing firing range were nerfbatted into oblivion and yea hood does have an instant cool down requirement but it also requires 2 sparks to cast in the first place. Even a sage veno would need to kite a realy well with hood on to get enough chi to get enouch chi to recast within the 15 seconds they have with hood up

I do however think the skills should work like they are written out to be in pve and PVP yes it would be somewhat broken but what about it right now isnt broken? People would just have to learn new strategies for fighting and actually have to pay attention to what they're doing instead of skill skill facerolling they're keyboards win.

jimburns96

Jenovadeath - Lost City wrote: »

with hood up

I do however think the skills should work like they are written out to be in pve and PVP yes it would be somewhat broken but what about it right now isnt broken? People would just have to learn new strategies for fighting and actually have to pay attention to what they're doing instead of skill skill facerolling they're keyboards win.

It's like this, they nerfed the bramble skills way back before they created a new race unique melee skills that are difficult for a class like a veno to defend against due to the channeling times. Venos are generally not built for HP and don't have the best pdef- a sacrifice they make to get the most out of their character with respect to their skill sets. Most if not all pets a veno has don't have skills that can be of much help either as those skills are outdated with respect to the new classes and new gears.

The bramble was also nerfed way back before they created new powerful or made it possible for -int gears to become more common not to mention the flood of rank 8 gears.

Now we have a new race with 2 more classes coming out with god know what gears and skill sets.

I think the bramble hood/guard nerf is obsolete and should be changed back to do what it is intended to do - give the veno full use of their 1 defense buff.

Lyritha - Heavens Tear

Jenovadeath - Lost City wrote: »

Technichally it would benifit the venos to not go for heavy armour if they worked in open world pvp the higher the phys def they have the less damage u do hence the less damage returned to them is less cause they're not doing the same amount of damage as they would to a robed class which I think is how a veno was supposed to be built other builds are almost entirely depentant upon having a nix to put out the amount of damage it takes to get down past a charm tick on some classes like heavy refined bms with 15-20k hp +5 aps.

There was at one point when venos were called wood mages and they could single hit u for a good deal of damage with ranged mag spells but as it has been said they're counter abilities for when a mellee was able to get withing firing range were nerfbatted into oblivion and yea hood does have an instant cool down requirement but it also requires 2 sparks to cast in the first place. Even a sage veno would need to kite a realy well with hood on to get enough chi to get enouch chi to recast within the 15 seconds they have with hood up

I do however think the skills should work like they are written out to be in pve and PVP yes it would be somewhat broken but what about it right now isnt broken? People would just have to learn new strategies for fighting and actually have to pay attention to what they're doing instead of skill skill facerolling they're keyboards win.

Saying they are meant to be robe is just not quite right given fox form does next to nothing other than amp and purge if you do wear a robe... being able to hit someone hard is nice but lets be honest a Wizard or Psychic is better for that pure arcane havoc.

Allynna_ - Dreamweaver

Jenovadeath - Lost City wrote: »

Technichally it would benifit the venos to not go for heavy armour if they worked in open world pvp the higher the phys def they have the less damage u do hence the less damage returned to them is less cause they're not doing the same amount of damage as they would to a robed class which I think is how a veno was supposed to be built other builds are almost entirely depentant upon having a nix to put out the amount of damage it takes to get down past a charm tick on some classes like heavy refined bms with 15-20k hp +5 aps.

Actually Bramble reflects x% of the damage BEFORE Armour/Defense levels. Then that damage IIRC can still be reduced by what ever defense (levels) the attacker has.

IE: A HA veno has level 10 bramble with 70% Pdef. Our Axe BM with 70% Pdef comes up and hits the Veno for 2K damage. The Veno then takes 600 damage, but reflects 1200 damage back. That 1200 damage is reduced to 360 because of the BM's 70% Pdef.

Example 2: AA veno with 10 bramble and 35% Pdef. Mister Sin with 50% Pdef comes up and crits for 4K on the Veno. The Veno takes 2600 damage, and reflects 2400 damage back, which is reduced to 1300 because of the Sin's 50% Pdef.

So, for normal Bramble unless the attacker has A LOT less Pdef than the veno, they still deal more damage than the take from reflect.