(attempted)POLL: about venomancer class...

xxxdsmer

first i'd like to say i was inspired to make this first post and poll by something i read posted in another thread:

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=10965392&postcount=24

gave me a good idea for how to paint a picture about my perspective on this...

imagine if you're a BM and your stuns no longer worked in PvP.

imagine if you're a wiz and couldnt blink to make distance (or that you did crappy damage, either one)

imagine if you're a barb and didnt have the massive HP that makes barbs beastly in PvP.

imagine if you're a archer and you no longer have your ranged stuns to pin a target down before killing it, or didnt get a speedboost from your buff to be able to better kite people.

imagine if you're a cleric and your heals and sleep/freeze no longer worked in PvP.

imagine if you're a assassin and your stealth no longer worked on anyone, and your crazy status and skill evasion buffs quit working too.

imagine if you're a psychic and your crazy reflect(s) quit working, or your ability to return a negative status to whoever sent it, or your mag atk selfbuff quit working together with sparks.

now imagine you're a venomancer and suddenly your two best defenses against melee classes just quit working. what kind of boat would that put you in? with no ability to return negative statuses like psy's, you cant sleep/freeze/stun enemies for much time at all like bm/cleric/archer/assn, you dont have a spammable heal to help compensate for the inoperable buff like cleric, and you dont have beastly HP like barb, and you dont have major nuking damage like a wiz. you dont even have a means in your skiltree to quickly get some distance between you and the melee attacker.
you are now bait for the class(es) that you were supposed to be being the brambley thorn in their side, but now you're just melee bait because your signature skill(s) no longer reflect in open world PvP.

there is a reason venomancer has bramble guard and bramble hood in its skilltree, just like cleric has heals buffs + sleep+freeze... bm has stuns, dragons, and now alot have 5APS... wiz has earth barrier, blink, and insane offensive capabilities... etc etc etc.

i'm not nessecarily saying BOTH skills should be put back to full working order, but IMHO at least bramble guard should work everywhere we go in the game.

feel free to discuss and debate civil-like. dont be comin in here trollin please.

*sprays troll repellent pesticide*

Renza - Raging Tide

bramble guard im not concerned about but bramble hood is just OP, i can remember ages ago back on pw-my when it was active in open pk, some1 tried to pk me at some point, i just stuck bramble hood on, had the insane reduce in damage recieved while he just chunked his HP away and all i did was hit once or twice and it was game over, the skill is fine as it is.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Should venomancer class be put back the way its supposed to be?

Bramble Guard and Bramble Hood haven't changed on PWI. Both have never reflected in open map PvP. Ever.

They have always worked in duels, in TW, in Cube, etc... but never on the open or past maps.

xxxdsmer

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

Bramble Guard and Bramble Hood haven't changed on PWI. Both have never reflected in open map PvP. Ever.

They have always worked in duels, in TW, in Cube, etc... but never on the open or past maps.

I myself have seen it on multiple occasions reflect in open world pvp. maybe not Hood, likely Guard... but since the tideborn have came out i have seen reflect pop up over an assassin's head when PvPing around tusk town, and some other occasions, but not here recently or for the last lil while. (i was about lv68-72 and still in light armor when the aforementioned PvP conflict took place) [and i wish now, that i'd screenshotted it or taken video somehow lol, because reflect happened everytime that assassin hit me that day]

people keep saying it's never worked, but i have seen it work. so, until a developer comes and tells me i was hallucinating, i know at least one of them has worked in open world pvp since i started in pwi


yall keep it clean and above the belt.. i'ma go ingame and do... idk what yet lol :-)

Michael_Dark - Lost City

xxxdsmer wrote: »

I myself have seen it on multiple occasions reflect in open world pvp. maybe not Hood, likely Guard... but since the tideborn have came out i have seen reflect pop up over an assassin's head when PvPing around tusk town, and some other occasions, but not here recently or for the last lil while. (i was about lv68-72 and still in light armor when the aforementioned PvP conflict took place) [and i wish now, that i'd screenshotted it or taken video somehow lol, because reflect happened everytime that assassin hit me that day]

people keep saying it's never worked, but i have seen it work. so, until a developer comes and tells me i was hallucinating, i know at least one of them has worked in open world pvp since i started in pwi


yall keep it clean and above the belt.. i'ma go ingame and do... idk what yet lol :-)

Bramble Hood reduce damage taken still works, the reflect does not.

Sure you weren't in a duel?

drjiggle

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

They have always worked in duels, in TW, in Cube, etc... but never on the open or past maps.

This, to me, is the weirdest part of it. If it's overpowered, reduce its power or make it inoperable in PvP. If it's not overpowered, leave it alone. But making it work sometimes and not all the time is both pointless and confusing. For all practical purposes, it doesn't work anywhere, because I never know whether it will or won't. It's better to just assume it won't and play based on that assumption.

My opinion (100% completely biased, since I play a venomancer) is that it's not overpowered. People complain that they kill themselves on Bramble in 1 or 2 hits. Duh! It''s a 2 spark skill! Barbarians kill people in 1 hit with Armageddon. Blademasters kill people in 1-2 hits with Heaven's Flame. Clerics kill people in 1 hit with Tempest. Wizards kill people in 1 hit with Blade Tempest or Black Ice Dragon Strike. Me? My skill doesn't do anything at all. Mine doesn't even kill people in 50 hits, because it's useless. That's overpowered? OK.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

drjiggle wrote: »

This, to me, is the weirdest part of it. If it's overpowered, reduce its power or make it inoperable in PvP. If it's not overpowered, leave it alone. But making it work sometimes and not all the time is both pointless and confusing. For all practical purposes, it doesn't work anywhere, because I never know whether it will or won't. It's better to just assume it won't and play based on that assumption.

My opinion (100% completely biased, since I play a venomancer) is that it's not overpowered. People complain that they kill themselves on Bramble in 1 or 2 hits. Duh! It''s a 2 spark skill! Barbarians kill people in 1 hit with Armageddon. Blademasters kill people in 1-2 hits with Heaven's Flame. Clerics kill people in 1 hit with Tempest. Wizards kill people in 1 hit with Blade Tempest or Black Ice Dragon Strike. Me? My skill doesn't do anything at all. Mine doesn't even kill people in 50 hits, because it's useless. That's overpowered? OK.

Hey, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that it never has worked in regular PvP on PWI. That's all. lol

Eoria - Harshlands

Venos have purge, amp, sharptooth if sage, AOE seal/freeze...

Even without reflect, we're still plenty good in PVP.

Kairu_ - Sanctuary

lol this is kinda funny ijs. at first when pwi got so much money from veno's nix and herc they would look at every op skill they had (if it was op) and consider it a reason to leave it that way for more veno's to pop up and make more money. but now that 5aps is their major income the'll break 5aps and dull any of the other classes regardless. maby if the mystic or such starts to get them a good chunk of money the'll have veno pet's flesh ream's bleed start to suffer the 1/4 dmg in pvp/pk to make the mystics more appealing as a nix won't just eat their face off so easily anymore. as for the brambles i think they should both work in open pvp. bramble hood reflects a ton and has dmg reduction but imo just stun/sleep and forget the veno till it's faded (or kill their pet whilist the veno is to deadly to attack) as for bramble guard don't even worry much about it. yes it's painful in pvp/pk but their a robe (HA/la in some cases) but just like a wizzies stone barreir, clerics plume shell, and psychics black vodoo/reflections. it's a defence against heavy hitting mele's to make them think twice.

TigerLily - Lost City

...or imagine if you're a wizard and Will of the Phoenix works in pvp lol. Can knock half of West Gate out of damage range. I mean there are several skills that works differently in pve compared to pvp, not just veno skills. Its always been like that since it would **** up the game play.

Another skill is the BM and barb specifik Reflective Aura, that reflects up to 100k magic dmg. Any caster will get 1 shot if they attack which is why it doesn't work in open pvp, just like venos Bramble Hood.

I have a 100+ veno myself but i really think 200% reflect would broken and unfair. Any mele class that touches you would fall over dead pretty much. Bramble Hood is almost instant cast to, so it would be impossible for BM/Sin/Barbs to just cancel attack as soon as a veno used it, specially with all the lag and skill delay.

Or if you use aoe and one of the players nearby is a veno that has Bramble Hood up. You cant see the reflect icon since you're targeting another player and boom 1 shot. Anyone that participated in any form of bigger pvp war knows that its very hard to keep track of what icons everyone around you has over their heads. Wouldn't be that much fun if you - during pvp - had to alt-tab all the venos in the area constantly to avoid getting 1 shoot by reflect.

drjiggle

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

Or if you use aoe and one of the players nearby is a veno that has Bramble Hood up.

That would be awesome. Get a full squad of venomancers to simultaneously Bramble and then make a suicide run into AOE's. 1200% damage returned (total from 6 venomancers).

TigerLily - Lost City

drjiggle wrote: »

That would be awesome. Get a full squad of venomancers to simultaneously Bramble and then make a suicide run into AOE's. 1200% damage returned (total from 6 venomancers).

Yes it would be awesome if the attacker was a sin just popping out if stealth for a ninja gank aoe and landed on a bunch of venos.

I kinda think Bramble Hood should work in open pvp, but only on assassins b:angry
They already have the most broken skills in the game and letting them kill themselves on venos would be fair enough, i would laugh a lot. They should be able to survive at least 1 reflect-**** anyway with Deaden Nerves up.

Pressa - Heavens Tear

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

Bramble Guard and Bramble Hood haven't changed on PWI. Both have never reflected in open map PvP. Ever.

They have always worked in duels, in TW, in Cube, etc... but never on the open or past maps.

Actually Michael it did they nerfed it because BMs didn't like that they killed themselves on bramble hood. But its been gone for a very long time long before I was level 60 which was a very long time ago. I wanna say it was before the first x-mas but it might have been after that but not by long. I remember being white named and running out and a barb killing himself attacking me.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Bramble Guard is pretty broken too if it worked in open PvP, because you can kite Hood, wtf you going to do against a 10min buff? 60% of melee damage returned is still a lot. In TW you can be ticking charm just attacking a Brambled target w/out the target even hitting back.

Pressa - Heavens Tear

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Bramble Guard is pretty broken too if it worked in open PvP, because you can kite Hood, wtf you going to do against a 10min self buff? 60% of melee damage returned is still a lot. In TW I can be ticking charm just attacking w/out the target even doing anything to me.

It so ain't broken it only returns the damage thats right up close aka swords and such. Then the damage that gets returned is exactly like if the BM is hitting a BM not only does it get reduced by the damage from the veno's defense it gets reduced from the BM's defense so as it turns out the damage returned is only like 60 damage. Unless your using fists it ain't going to hurt on a 2-3 shot veno.

Krisnda - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Bramble Guard is pretty broken too if it worked in open PvP, because you can kite Hood, wtf you going to do against a 10min buff? 60% of melee damage returned is still a lot. In TW you can be ticking charm just attacking a Brambled target w/out the target even hitting back.

+ Remember that Guard doesn't have the damage reduction, do if someone 1-shots you, they may have a charm tick or what have you, but you may be dead. Hood i do think is a bit OP, I was in a duel with a lv 100 Barb, i popped Hood and he used Armageddon and 1-shot himself while I still had about 80% hp left XD (this was when i was lv 80 btw).

Scandalous - Dreamweaver

As a Veno, I do agree that we should be allowed to use these skills in open map PvP, as if you have seen all the other classes PK they all have some skill which allows them to have the upper hand in a match.

If you were to say that we get Purge + Amp and/or Sharptooth'ed Soul Degen, then you would have to add in their cast time while getting smacked around. If your pet is dead, then basically your a punching bag until those finish casting.

I do agree though that Hood is a bit Overpowered as it does reflect a boatload of damage back, but even with large reflects, most Arcane veno's would probably die before the reflect kills their attacker.

Adea - Lost City_1363814429

I think they should add these skills for PvP because the other classes have one hit skills too so I don't see why that would be an issue. The only two things that would make this OP are the fact that is that Bramble hood has a 30 second cool down and lasts for 15 seconds.
So if they do decide to make this available for open PvP again,they need to ...
A. Make a longer cool down.
B. Decreased the reflected damage.
C. Reduce the buff time down to maybe 5-6 seconds.
D. Variety of the above.

Mekkhala - Lost City

yeah I know the feeling...my archer speed buff goes bye-bye every time I use holy path....

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Pressa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Actually Michael it did they nerfed it because BMs didn't like that they killed themselves on bramble hood. But its been gone for a very long time long before I was level 60 which was a very long time ago. I wanna say it was before the first x-mas but it might have been after that but not by long. I remember being white named and running out and a barb killing himself attacking me.

It's never worked in open map pvp here as long as I have been here and it had been confirmed by a number of venos who were here since the beginning.

I went ahead and found it in the thread dated 2-24-09 Veno's bramble hood got nerfed?!

Lily has been playing PWI since it started. She came over from PW-MY where she had several 10x characters... I trust that she knows what she's talking about.

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

Bramble hood never worked in pvp guess why zzzzzzzz
A return 200% of mele dmg would be so OP it would be insane. Every mele class that hit a veno in pk with bramble up would pretty much die instantly b:bye

So no its not "nerfed" its always been like that b/c bramble hood working in pvp same way as in pve would be ****. And it still works as in u get 75% dmg reduction for 15 sec.

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

I thought the only reason they nerfed bramble in open PvP was because it would cause the veno's name to go pink if attacked instead of the attacker? >.>

Like you know... the way the psy Soul of Vengeance does?

*If it was just about the damage people, it wouldn't work in TW, ijs"

anwynd

hmmmm i think hood should work in open pvp sense it doesnt last very long but extend the cooldown to 1-3 minutes so it cant be spammed it costs 2 sparks just like all the other classes wtfpwn skills so i believe its fair to allow it as for guard it lasts to long which makes it to op in my mind

Graey_Rain - Harshlands

As a sin I can safely say that all reflect damage skills are OP and should never ever be aloud in open pvp. Hell **** allowing them to work in open pvp we should ban them from TW as well. I don't care about duels but it sucks sooo bad in tw not be able to kill anyone without half killing yourself lol. Sins are useless in tw. Least useful class in the game, why? Bramble that's why. If they put bramble in open pvp we'd suck at that two, then all the sins would quit, which would knock off a bout a quarter of the games population lolz. And no more money ligning pwis pockets. The sins hold the power, you know it's true! All our 5 aps cash shoppers have pwi in the palms of their hands, now listen to our demands or taste our daggery wrath!!!

1. NERF BRAMBLE NOOOW!!! SAVE TEH SINS QQ

2. We want tripple spark put back so it doesn't knock you out of stealth plox. I find it too hard to kill venos now that i cant come out of stealth triple sparked with a headhunt QQ it takes a whole 2 seconds almost insetad of the 0.00001 it used to. WTF's that all about... op veno's b:cry

3. Also we want fleshreem fixed, hell we want nixes taken out of the game, we want barbs to have less hp, bms shouldn't be allowed to stun either that's totally cheating, we want psys soul of stunning and vengeance gone, we want the genie skills expell and absolute domain premanantly removed, no class but sins should be allowed to iron guard and we also want more physical and magical defence, extra hp from refining light armour would be nice too.
That is all, If our demands are not met within the next 38 hours we will QQ more.
Thank you and goodbye b:bye

P.s. I would also like a move that stops physical damage from hurting me and instantly kills anyone attacking me. lololol i'm just joking about this one that would be so insanely OP it would make sins too powerful and pvp wouldn't even be a challenge any more that would totally break the game lolumad. I'm serious about all the other demands though, so get to it GM's chop/chop.

drjiggle

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

It's never worked in open map pvp here as long as I have been here and it had been confirmed by a number of venos who were here since the beginning.

I went ahead and found it in the thread dated 2-24-09 Veno's bramble hood got nerfed?!

Lily has been playing PWI since it started. She came over from PW-MY where she had several 10x characters... I trust that she knows what she's talking about.

There's a lot of confusion and misinformation surrounding it, because there's nothing in the description that tells you it doesn't work. I know I went quite a while after getting the skill just assuming it worked, because why wouldn't it? In cases where it obviously didn't, I just wrote it off to hacks, glitches, I got 1-shotted by some 9x Spectral before the damage hit him, overpowered gear, charm ticks, etc.

The fact that it does work half the time makes it even worse.

I suspect you're right, because I know your sources are a lot more knowledgeable and reliable than most random forum posters, but I imagine that's why there's so much skepticism.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

drjiggle wrote: »

There's a lot of confusion and misinformation surrounding it, because there's nothing in the description that tells you it doesn't work. I know I went quite a while after getting the skill just assuming it worked, because why wouldn't it? In cases where it obviously didn't, I just wrote it off to hacks, glitches, I got 1-shotted by some 9x Spectral before the damage hit him, overpowered gear, charm ticks, etc.

The fact that it does work half the time makes it even worse.

I suspect you're right, because I know your sources are a lot more knowledgeable and reliable than most random forum posters, but I imagine that's why there's so much skepticism.

I think the confusion really spawns from people seeing the effect in duels, in specific instances like Dragon Temple, Cube, TW, etc... and just assume that it always works in PvP. Most people on PvE servers assume that it works in PvP even to this day when it's actually just situational. I don't doubt that it may glitch at times. I mean, people have even dropped bound gear and even dolls/GA/GS/whatever... this game is hardly free of glitches and it wouldn't surprise me that every once in a while it actually does work, but I'm more suspect of the observers actual attention to how and why it actually worked in their recollections of it and figure the reasons I just mention mostly to blame.

Takumeme - Dreamweaver

So, Bramble Hood is OP?
Soul Burn, just sayin b:bye

Silest - Sanctuary

Wont make a difference.

And soulburn can be avoided because of its easy to see coming channel/animation. They can easily.. wait out its timer.

Takumeme - Dreamweaver

Silest - Sanctuary wrote: »

Wont make a difference.

And soulburn can be avoided because of its easy to see coming channel/animation. They can easily.. wait out its timer.

Since when are you forced to attack during hood?

Regenbogen - Lost City

i am curious...

from my my experience in duells the reflected damage from bramble hood is more like 50%...

go and duell a veno...b:lipcurl

Yindra - Sanctuary

[x] Why should I care

I don't have these skills, and don't see why I would need them. Reduced damage (the higher tier skill) would be nice, but I'm assuming it's mostly vs. melee attacks, maybe ranged physical if such attacks even exist, and won't last long --- so I'd have to cast it while I'm running away.

For the PvPers, let them bash their heads. Who cares.

Elviron - Dreamweaver

Yindra - Sanctuary wrote: »

[x] Why should I care

I don't have these skills, and don't see why I would need them. Reduced damage (the higher tier skill) would be nice, but I'm assuming it's mostly vs. melee attacks, maybe ranged physical if such attacks even exist, and won't last long --- so I'd have to cast it while I'm running away.

For the PvPers, let them bash their heads. Who cares.

Umm what do archers do then? b:shocked ranged magic?

In pve this would apply to physical AoEs, ranged physical mobs (rattuses), etc.