Hello, Cash Shopper Speaking

MystiMonk - Sanctuary · August 2010

_Ghostz_ - Archosaur wrote: »

I would just like to personally say that this game is getting more ruined by the second, and even with my ample amount of money put into this game,spending money on every server i played on (HT, DW, RT, HL, and ARCHO) it is getting to the point where this game is not worth playing.

There is no response to the players pleads which they overflood these forums with daily

There instead of doing what was said and trying to fix the ingame economy, nothing was done, if fact you just put the main economy poison in the Cash Shop (indefinetly) and expect us to give you Respect?

Now dont get me wrong, spending money on an online game isnt frowned upon at all, in fact i love to if the game is even close to an hobby of mine, but whats the point of spending money on a game with no one to play with...

This game turned from a balanced self efficent and happy player base into....well what is seen on these forums, Complete and utter sh*t and chaos.

Please fix the game soon, or in the near future there wont be a game to fix....thank you

Why don't you just stick to one server and attend to those char only with Zen instead of flooding it on to others?It is waste of time and money to do what you are doing so don't blame others and not the economy.I will admit I got alts on other server but they are just there to visit with others not to play the game.This is your own doing so who do you blame.

Airyll - Dreamweaver · August 2010

Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Funny how you pick and choose only parts of what Fuzzy says to respond to.

Funny how you edit your post after I posted my response and then try and pretend I only picked bits of your post to respond to. My posting time and your edit time also confirms this.

I'm not even going to bother arguing with you after that cheap shot to try and make it look like I wasn't reading everything you said. XD Fail harder please Fuzzy, you destroyed your own argument, posted, and when I responded telling you why your argument sucked **** you went back to edit your post to try and pretend I had ignored parts of it.

b:bye

-edit-

Oh, just to respond to a part of your edited post that you edited after my first response:

Your argument STILL fails because the TW change doesn't affect me. I'm not in a TW faction.

Assume moar plz, you've been making a royal **** of yourself so far in doing so.

Solandri - Heavens Tear · August 2010

Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide wrote: »

However, you seem to be saying that the 10mil notes are the only source of inflation and that somehow removing them will be a magic wand and reset the economy. This is a bogus notion.

There has been billions and billions injected into the economy from people grinding, this cannot be denied. In fact, it was for this reason alone that DQ items were nerfed. It was a move to combat inflation.

Yet the people that want the notes removed to help compensate for inflation were the same ones that were outraged when the DQ price change was implemented to help combat the exact same problem.

How do you square that circle?

The two aren't inconsistent. A small level of coin inflation in the game is to be expected (deflation would mean you'd make money by not playing for a while and coming back later - something I'm certain PWE does not want to encourage).

Inflation happens when the rate of coin entering the system exceeds the rate of coin leaving it. That is, the coin sources generate more coin per day than the coin sinks suck up coin per day. For this to be balanced well, the sources have to generate slightly more than the sinks suck up. Assume for the moment that things were balanced in this fashion back when gold was 100k.

On average the number of hours played by people is pretty constant. Well, maybe it spikes during summer vacation and weekends, but overall it's pretty constant. Similarly, when you grind, you can only obtain coin at a certain rate, say 200k per hour on average. If on average each player grinds 1 hour a day, and there are 5k players (not all online at once of course), then this coin source is relatively stable at 1 billion coin per day. It can vary a bit, but given the large player population, the randomness of drops, and the law of averages, you're probably looking at 1 billion +/- 5% a day.

It's very easy to design a coin sink to counter that. If you want a bit of inflation, just design a sink which on average consumes 0.9 billion coin per day and you've created a net gain of 50-150 million coin per day. The important thing here is that the rate is consistent and difficult to vary. There are no exploits which let you run around one-shotting everything to make that 1 billion per day suddenly become 4 billion per day and completely throwing off your balance.

The tokens from the packs breaks this (moreso when they were first released). Unlike grinding which takes time, packs are almost instant. So instead of 1 billion +/- 5%, it's completely dependent on the instantaneous whims of players opening packs. They probably generated 10s of billions of coin per day when Anniv packs were first released, down to probably ~half a billion per day now. This huge range in potential coin influx makes them very difficult if not impossible to balance with a coin sink. If they'd added a coin sink last September which countered them, removing 10s of billions of coin from the economy each day, that sink would now be causing massive coin deflation, if it hadn't yet emptied the economy of all coin.

The other thing to note is that the influence a player has on the economy is proportional to the amount of coin s/he generates from coin sources. So reducing DQ prices 20% while leaving perfect best luck tokens in means the people who grind have their influence on the economy reduced by ~15%, while the influence of people who open packs remains unchanged. The people who were feeling victimized by rising gold prices had their influence on the economy decreased, while the people opening packs had their influence proportionately increased. That's precisely the opposite of the effect most people wanted, which is why the change drew so much outrage.

volst · August 2010

If any of you have played other versions of this game, you would know that the bank notes have no real effect on the gold prices. The gold prices will jump regardless as long as there is a pack out. If anything it stabilizes the economy since it sets the prices for us, instead of letting people decide.

tweakz · August 2010

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So reducing DQ prices 20% while leaving perfect best luck tokens in means the people who grind have their influence on the economy reduced by ~15%, while the influence of people who open packs remains unchanged. The people who were feeling victimized by rising gold prices had their influence on the economy decreased, while the people opening packs had their influence proportionately increased. That's precisely the opposite of the effect most people wanted, which is why the change drew so much outrage.

Please don't go along with all the others and ignore that DQ is only a small part of the income of grinding. That 20% figure is just one of those high numbers that misleads (Something Dell does to it's victims). I think you should also note that dragon order values have gone up, so while NPC's may not pay as well: other players might be paying better. Is anyone complaining about the NPC value of green TT mats?

The gold value HAD to change. It was either that or people start making money playing rather than working which would cut into PWI's profits. They even took steps to make sure that newcomers could gain still by implementing the weapon mold quests, and supply stashes.

On another note, the people that say when people hit 100 and complain they have nothing to do. -BS! Who's not going to do BH1 for the chance at 2m/50mirage or Mysterious Chips/ or 33 US? Who's not going to do BH2 for the 66 rep, the xp or the SP? Then there's Nirvana, FF, OHT gear quests, OHT dailies, all these new events, new ways to grind, the full range of FB's, rolling a new character to share uber gears with, etc. If anything there is MORE to do.

TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide · August 2010

Ugh , Airyll ... while I totally agree with you in pretty much everything you said I think you should try to sound a lil' bit less offensive :P

No harm intended but I'm sure no1 would want this thread closed for flaming b:shocked

And @ fuzzy.... there are barely a few newer players in ALL servers that know what grinding is b:surrender

But no1 can blame them for not doing so when they got better ways of lvling & making money .

Just my 2 cents .

Michael_Dark - Lost City · August 2010

tweakz wrote: »

We have to be ignoring that those tokens are also almost required to get some of the mats for the weapon of the sages which also means they're coin sinks at the same time. We also have to be ignoring the rewards from the events. Just placing in the top 5 got me 12m coin for a little over a half an hours work. We also would have to ignore of the gambler's dilemnas. Gamblers never say how much they lost to get one little they gain. So while you complain about them getting 10m coin for opening a couple packs, you have to ignore how much they've lost and will lose opening other packs.

Weapon of the sages? You're kidding right? You say that like a significant number of those Besties were used to craft badges. Hardly anyone is Rank 6... a handful of venos actually use the Rank 6 weapon... I don't think Sins even use the Rank 6 weapon, and I don't know of any other classes that would benefit much from it, so that wouldn't really be an issue either.

Yes, Neinbeast was dishing out a fair share of coin as well. 40 people had the chance per event to get excitement or ecstasy cards, however most people didn't regularly make 12 mil per event. Far from it really. Excitement and Ecstasy cards were nice rewards but they weren't all that frequent. The frequency of the Neinbeast event though put enough into circulation, but you're fooling yourself if you believe they injected nearly as much as packs have in the same time span.

Gambler's delimina? You forget how many people also MAKE a ton of money opening packs, selling tokens and event items, buying more packs and repeating the process over and over.

And it doesn't matter how much someone spends on packs, that number is meaningless in this conversation. You could spend 100 million coin on packs... none of that coin disappears, but in opening those packs you might not get any high priced items, but you will surely get a few best lucks. In any event, coin isn't dissappearing from the economy, it's still being created in larger numbers than possibly every other source of coin creation combined.

10m is not a lot. Toons over Lv.100 have the chance to get 2m coin a day just off of BH2. There are TT drops worth more. I've made more off of buying and selling a single item in less than a week. I've made it in one day of double drops. I could make it in 15 days of leveling a new characters to 30. I could make it in ~30 1/2 hour nirvana runs. I could make it in about 10 days of buying and selling. The complaints here are so similar to the complaints on the veno forums concerning the cost of Hercs.

Ok, baseless statement. You're talking about an individual's prosperity or lack of it again. That doesn't matter. Watch the red spam and count. Whether or not it is you opening ALL of them or none of them, that coin is still being poured into the economy.

If DQ prices going down made grinding not profitable, then why do I still make a profit off BH runs even after wine share costs and repairs? BH SoT can be done unwined in about 10m more than avg unwined. The problem is people are too lazy to do more work than they have to. It's quicker for a squad to take down a mob than it is to ninja, yet what do most peopled do? It took me a long time to convince people that fb59 did not take 4 hours unwined, it didn't even take an hour at 7x, and it didn't take me more than 13m to get to a single boss there. People create rumors to suit their selfishness and laziness. They want tabbers to pay an unreasonable amount of coin so they can save some work and actually lose potential profit.

That was then this is now. You bet an unwined FB59 used to take 2-2.5 hours.

Profit from BH? Well, apparently you're not a melee class. My cost for running a BH is a little more than the DQ and items I would get from running it.

Lazy? The time saved by wining could easily make you far more money than saving 35k per person to actually wine it. Sure you can sit back, relax and enjoy it, but you speak of this so called profit from running BH. It's a joke. In the time I would save wining a SOT I could do a 2-2 or 2-3 run and make far more than you could just picking up npc food.

It's the same thing in this thread. Some people want things cheaper than they're worth. I don't like this company any more than anyone else I assure you. I will not however sit by idly and watch people complain about ridiculous things when there are legitimate gripes.

I like the economy and I'm not a cash shopper. The packs are one of the few things PWI is doing right.

Sorry, I view my points as being valid and I see yours as being quite silly.

tweakz wrote: »

On another note, the people that say when people hit 100 and complain they have nothing to do. -BS! Who's not going to do BH1 for the chance at 2m/50mirage or Mysterious Chips/ or 33 US? Who's not going to do BH2 for the 66 rep, the xp or the SP? Then there's Nirvana, FF, OHT gear quests, OHT dailies, all these new events, new ways to grind, the full range of FB's, rolling a new character to share uber gears with, etc. If anything there is MORE to do.

Actually it's 8 subs. You're not likely to get 2 ecstasy cards, 50 mirages is rather worthless. 50 mysterious chips are even more worthless.

Do you actually even do any instances? You sound so excited about Nirvana or Frost... have you really been there? I mean, after 400+ runs of Nirvana, and at least that many runs of 3-3, quite frankly, I'm sick of seeing the inside of them. FF? Yeah I'm actually considering doing solo runs so I can hit 103 faster, fun or exciting? Not quite. OHT quests and dailies... yes, I guess you haven't done enough of those as well.

Wow, I wish I could just lose myself in-game as much as you seem to. Some people just can't get enough and do the same boring repetitive BS every day and love it. Either you don't play enough or you play too much I think. So much enthusiasm for the same old thing.

tweakz · August 2010

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Weapon of the sages? You're kidding right? You say that like a significant number of those Besties were used to craft badges. Hardly anyone is Rank 6...

BS, it's quite common. I have Rank 6 and I don't have the weapon of the sages but I see many that do.

Yes, Neinbeast was dishing out a fair share of coin as well. 40 people had the chance per event to get excitement or ecstasy cards, however most people didn't regularly make 12 mil per event. Far from it really.

Then why are people boo-hooing about packs and not the event? Don't you realize if the packs gave cash shoppers any real benefit that it would translate over into the event also? (the rich get richer). Some of the best equipped players I've met are non cash shoppers. Do you want PWI to make it so that even fails can keep up?

Excitement and Ecstasy cards were nice rewards but they weren't all that frequent. The frequency of the Neinbeast event though put enough into circulation, but you're fooling yourself if you believe they injected nearly as much as packs have in the same time span.

~1/2 hours work for 12m and you're complaining about someone spending a huge fortune to open a ton of packs for the chance at getting 10m? C'mon!

Gambler's delimina? You forget how many people also MAKE a ton of money opening packs, selling tokens and event items, buying more packs and repeating the process over and over.

Those tokens are no where near the cost of the packs. -Git real! If they were: I'd be stupid rich off them but I ignore them. Again, I'm not a cash shopper for other reasons.

Ok, baseless statement. You're talking about an individual's prosperity or lack of it again. That doesn't matter. Watch the red spam and count. Whether or not it is you opening ALL of them or none of them, that coin is still being poured into the economy.

yeah, gotta love loser fail builds that waste that much coin on the game. I mostly see it from someone who was an LA wizard -how screwed up is that?!! So what if this bonehead pay for me to play the game so he can make idiot choices and throw cash at it to make it work? Really, the good merchants are up there with the cash shoppers still. One keeps the game company going, the other is making profit off the over paying idiots. Who would you rather have? I'd rather have the ones putting cash in to make it easier for the rest of us but I also admire those who can flourish despite what the whiners say.

That was then this is now. You bet an unwined FB59 used to take 2-2.5 hours.

Yeah, for lazy fails.

Profit from BH? Well, apparently you're not a melee class. My cost for running a BH is a little more than the DQ and items I would get from running it.

Ok, idiot, ignore that several times already in this thread I've pointed out that other drops amount to significantly more than DQ items. I'm, really getting tired of addressing the same point over and over again. I also mentioned how I made ~1m in a few days playing a melee class from ground zero. If you're not spending the couple seconds extra to pick up the coin: it's your loss! I could go on to explain how I've gotten multiple -6% rings and other valuables as drops, but you go on qq'ing about an insignificant drop in DQ and insignificant cost of repairs. You fail at the game, quit blaming packs because many of us non cash shoppers are doing great!

Lazy? The time saved by wining could easily make you far more money than saving 35k per person to actually wine it.

How's that? You get a lot more drops and it takes about 10m more with a good squad? That's 210k per hour saved on wines alone (not including drops). If you're actually capable of making more than that, why are you also complaining about no profits?

Sure you can sit back, relax and enjoy it, but you speak of this so called profit from running BH. It's a joke. In the time I would save wining a SOT I could do a 2-2 or 2-3 run and make far more than you could just picking up npc food.

If that were true, wtf are you whining about?

50 mirages is rather worthless. 50 mysterious chips are even more worthless.

You're just wasting my time probably trolling which is why I'm showing you little respect. Mirage's npc value is 10k ea, they sell fast at 11k ea. Even if you NPC them, that's 500k for 50 which is half of an ecstasy card or 1/4 of 2. You are a fail if you think 50 mirages are worthless. Even more if you can't figure out how to make coin or gears off chips. Keep pointing the finger though because those that do are just exposing themselves. I've said it before, quit blaming others for your failure. I admit to being bad at vending. Can you admit to being bad?

Zerhee - Lost City · August 2010

tweakz wrote: »

cut

**** broseph, you just took retardation to a whole new level.

anwynd · August 2010

Zerhee - Lost City wrote: »

**** broseph, you just took retardation to a whole new level.

+10000000000000

but you do have to admit its fun watching tweakz post this crapb:laugh

Reshanta - Sanctuary · August 2010

I'm a cash shopper, and I'm not unhappy with the game. I don't buy packs..

I feel like I'm repeating myself.

I sell gold though.

I don't wont them to make negative changes to the game

.

No hyper removal, even though I don't use them anymore and as a veno(i quit psy), I grind traditionally. Hypers are there for other players. Lots of them like hypers, why take it away?

No removal or nerfs to BHs.

No nerfs

Stop asking for changes when you don't know how the devs will implement them.. I've seen some changes asked by players that devs in other games went through with and it only caused more problems and more player unhappiness.

It may sound unreasonable, but deal with what you have now, because to me it doesn't look so bad at all.

This is kind of depressing. Will I ever play a game where everyone else is happy with it like I am?

Michael_Dark - Lost City · August 2010

tweakz wrote: »

BS, it's quite common. I have Rank 6 and I don't have the weapon of the sages but I see many that do.

You're an idiot. You were talking about Perfect Tokens of Best Luck not being used to generate coin but to make Rank 6 weapons. Hint: Most of the people who have Rank 6 wepaons were buying Badges for cheap when nobody wanted them from Anivpacks, not buying them with best luck tokens.

~1/2 hours work for 12m and you're complaining about someone spending a huge fortune to open a ton of packs for the chance at getting 10m? C'mon!

Those tokens are no where near the cost of the packs. -Git real! If they were: I'd be stupid rich off them but I ignore them. Again, I'm not a cash shopper for other reasons.

So you made 12m for every Neinbeast? lmao. What a liar you are.

What does the cost of the pack even matter? loludumb

Ok, idiot, ignore that several times already in this thread I've pointed out that other drops amount to significantly more than DQ items. I'm, really getting tired of addressing the same point over and over again. I also mentioned how I made ~1m in a few days playing a melee class from ground zero. If you're not spending the couple seconds extra to pick up the coin: it's your loss! I could go on to explain how I've gotten multiple -6% rings and other valuables as drops, but you go on qq'ing about an insignificant drop in DQ and insignificant cost of repairs. You fail at the game, quit blaming packs because many of us non cash shoppers are doing great!

You're a nut job. You think you make 12m per Neinbeast event... I'm sure you always get big money books and molds every time you do a BH.

You act like you can count on that as steady profit. lol. OMG -6 chan rings drop all the time.

Who did you buy your account from and for how much?

stuff

Umm.. sorry for responding to you in the first place. You clearly have no clue what you're talking about, go off on strange wild tangents that have no bearing on the discussion and on top of that your logic is full of fallicies. You sir, are dense. Like rock. b:bye

anwynd · August 2010

there wouldnt be no down side to removing the 10m bank note it would actually help

GO MICHAEL

now where did i put my pop corn

Knownase - Heavens Tear · August 2010

anwynd wrote: »

there wouldnt be no down side to removing the 10m bank note it would actually help

I'm guessing the other side of the argument with the removal of the 10 mill bank note is that those tokens of best luck will devalue to like...2 mill.

Also, gives less motivation for buying packs and therefore, less zen being charged.

But yes, I agree with the removal of the 10 mill bank note.

anwynd · August 2010

there is plenty of other **** tht the best luck token can be traded for i dont think they will lose tht much sales lol

tweakz · August 2010

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

You're an idiot.

What a liar you are.

loludumb

You're a nut job.

You eat **** and play with little boys in inappropriate ways. b:bye

anwynd · August 2010

dang now its just petty words was geting interesting tob:laugh

Solandri - Heavens Tear · August 2010

tweakz wrote: »

10m is not a lot. Toons over Lv.100 have the chance to get 2m coin a day just off of BH2.