Hello, Cash Shopper Speaking

Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

When I spoke about farming instances? I was talking about farming the mats for money, because the discussion had been about making money in game. Never once was I referring to the idea of farming mats for your gear - which is something I wholeheartedly support and am doing myself.

So you don't have a problem farming your gear.... so what exactly IS the problem? Fuzzy just not comprehending here.

You say that you are still able to generate enough income to keep improving your character. Isn't that the whole point? Or are you farming to simply have millions of coins sitting in the bank?

If you still have the means to improve your character, how exactly is the economy broken?

Asheera - Raging Tide

Remove the 10 million Big Note exchange from the boutique agent. That's brilliant!

Can you do it on maintenance please, will remove 90% of QQs about economy. And you won't lose sales either.

Seriously. Is there a reason you keep it there? Since it doesn't help anyone but only inflate the economy and make people rage.

Evict - Heavens Tear

Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »

Remove the 10 million Big Note exchange from the boutique agent. That's brilliant!

Can you do it on maintenance please, will remove 90% of QQs about economy. And you won't lose sales either.

Seriously. Is there a reason you keep it there? Since it doesn't help anyone but only inflate the economy and make people rage.

Unfortunately, it was never PWI's motive to fix the economy. High Gold prices = More people buying Zen. PWI likes money. Everyone likes money. Money is money. So therefore money likes money.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide wrote: »

So you don't have a problem farming your gear.... so what exactly IS the problem? Fuzzy just not comprehending here.

You say that you are still able to generate enough income to keep improving your character. Isn't that the whole point? Or are you farming to simply have millions of coins sitting in the bank?

If you still have the means to improve your character, how exactly is the economy broken?

I wasn't saying that I personally had any problem. I was saying that the ways to generate coin in this game have been nerfed, either through actual patch content or through one too many 2x drop events.

10 million big notes however can be earned with two Tokens of Best Luck. Two of these cost either: 2 gold (less if you buy packs in bulk) or, at most, 1 million coins. Just 10% of the money they give you in return. This throws the economy out of balance, because it injects huge amount of coins into the game and to only one player, where as the other ways for a player to make money have since been nerfed, making them less profitable.

This is why people are complaining about packs. I can improve my character because I merchant and have, at a rough estimate, ten million on my person at any one time. I don't grind, it's not worth it. I don't farm TT for mats to sell, it's not worth it. I had to sit down and merchant my way through the game so I can continue to try and pay for both my main and my two alts.

I never said that I had the income to improve my character, I said I was farming for gears. Between the mats I can't farm for my archer's gear and the gear of my two alts, the money adds up and I can just about keep them running. It's not easy considering I refuse to buy packs nor charge gold and I don't have the spare money to go and buy some spare gold for myself.

Ten million big notes inflate the economy. That's not a good thing, and yes it does break the economy.

Egaenil - Heavens Tear

Hmm I think price of best luck token will actually fall if you cant exchange them for 10mil

erethizon1

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Unfortunately, it was never PWI's motive to fix the economy. High Gold prices = More people buying Zen. PWI likes money. Everyone likes money. Money is money. So therefore money likes money.

I don't think PWI cares who buys the gold as long as the same amount is purchased. What I mean is this, it does not matter if 5 people each buy 10 gold (which sells at auction for 500k each) or if one person buys 50 gold (which sells at auction for 100k each) and sells 40 of it to the other 4 players. PWI gets the same amount of money no matter who buys the gold. If a player has a goal to get an item that cost 10 million coins then he needs to buy 100 gold if it sells for 100k at auction instead of just 20 gold if it sells for 500k at auction. Lower gold prices do not hurt PWI at all. The only time it would actually be an issue was if gold prices were so low that no one was selling it, but that has never happened. I remember buying my first few gold for between 80 and 85k during that first week or two the game was out and there was always plenty of gold up for sale.

Since there will never be zero gold up for sale at auction the only thing that hurts PWI's income is if demand for gold drops and that is much more likely to happen because gold is too expensive than because it is too cheap. I used to buy gold from other players, but have not done so in over a year. When gold prices shot up I stopped buying gold. Lower prices for gold increases demand for it which increases its rate of consumption. That is good for PWI.

Susamajii - Lost City

Egaenil - Heavens Tear wrote: »

why you want to get rid of bank notes!! QQ I want to stash all my coins on me.. I dont want to stash them on alts, plus i only have a normal shop.. so only 200mil in bank 200mil in ah, 150mil in goods and 50mil on me.. GGRR stop trying to get rid of bank notes people!!

Fairly certain you are being sarcastic but we aren't talking about getting rid of the bank notes all together just remove them as an option from the boutique agent. You can still turn 10mill coins into a bank note at the banker.

Susamajii - Lost City

LloydAsplund - Sanctuary wrote: »

Thousands of people have no problems with the packs. There is no archosaur street crisis. People continue to buy the packs, play the game and got over it. Live with it. Also.. when you say our economy skyrocketed, is that a bad thing?

You guys need to suck it up. Dont like it? Quit. Dont stay here and whine and say everything is ruined and continue to play. You are a minority. The majority LOVES the packs.

You're on a pve server. Your opinion is therefore null and void. (Ilove2flame)

@Ega of course it would fall. That's the point. My guess is if they removed the bank note option best luckys would drop to 2mill instead of 5. The only exchangeable item that doesn't fit the 2mill would be 1 best gets you 2 chronos so maybe the price of chronos will drop. But 60~Twilight Scepter = 120mill is about right. 2~Perfect Citrine = 4mill which is also about right.

Then again this discussion doesn't mean a damn thing because the GMs won't even respond to let us know they acknowledge our idea of removing the bank note option. Would be nice to at least see a "we'll see what we can do" or something.

Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

10 million big notes however can be earned with two Tokens of Best Luck. Two of these cost either: 2 gold (less if you buy packs in bulk) or, at most, 1 million coins. Just 10% of the money they give you in return. This throws the economy out of balance, because it injects huge amount of coins into the game and to only one player.

So people can gamble on packs if they so choose... and if they are lucky, they can get 10m coin in return.

It can't be denied that this does inject new coin into the system.

Fuzzy kills a mob, it drops 500 coin. (Just a random number, but not an extreme example) This too injects new coin into the system. So if Fuzzy kills 20,000 mobs, this is the same as a ten million big note. Okay, killing 20,000 mobs? Not likely. But say there are thousand people on the server at any given time. They each kill 20 mobs. Voila, a fresh 10 million is injected into the economy. This same 1000 people are also injecting fresh coin into the economy from the DQ drops etc they sell to NPC's. So that 10 million is made even faster than simply killing their 20 mobs.

Are you saying there are more people opening packs and getting 2 best luck tokens than there are people on the server killing mobs and picking up the drops?

Susamajii - Lost City

Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide wrote: »

So people can gamble on packs if they so choose... and if they are lucky, they can get 10m coin in return.

It can't be denied that this does inject new coin into the system.

Fuzzy kills a mob, it drops 500 coin. (Just a random number, but not an extreme example) This too injects new coin into the system. So if Fuzzy kills 20,000 mobs, this is the same as a ten million big note. Okay, killing 20,000 mobs? Not likely. But say there are thousand people on the server at any given time. They each kill 20 mobs. Voila, a fresh 10 million is injected into the economy. This same 1000 people are also injecting fresh coin into the economy from the DQ drops etc they sell to NPC's. So that 10 million is made even faster than simply killing their 20 mobs.

Are you saying there are more people opening packs and getting 2 best luck tokens than there are people on the server killing mobs and picking up the drops?

On Lost City yes. I'm pretty sure half the people that play now can't even spell the word grind let alone ever done it.

Loltank - Harshlands

nope, but we're saying that there are now twice as many coins coming in as there was before as grinding and DQ are adding coins IN ADDITION to the packs.

Egaenil - Heavens Tear

Susamajii - Lost City wrote: »

Fairly certain you are being sarcastic but we aren't talking about getting rid of the bank notes all together just remove them as an option from the boutique agent. You can still turn 10mill coins into a bank note at the banker.

No I'm seriouse b:chuckle faceplam... well facemouth..

Susamajii - Lost City

Egaenil - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No I'm seriouse b:chuckle faceplam... well facemouth..

You should check out my siggy

I hope Frankie enjoyed it after all the stress i brought him b:chuckle

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Are you saying there are more people opening packs and getting 2 best luck tokens than there are people on the server killing mobs and picking up the drops?

That's exactly what we're saying. You worked it out. b:victory

C/LLlE - Heavens Tear3

Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Fuzzy kills a mob, it drops 500 coin. (Just a random number, but not an extreme example) This too injects new coin into the system. So if Fuzzy kills 20,000 mobs, this is the same as a ten million big note. Okay, killing 20,000 mobs? Not likely. But say there are thousand people on the server at any given time. They each kill 20 mobs. Voila, a fresh 10 million is injected into the economy. This same 1000 people are also injecting fresh coin into the economy from the DQ drops etc they sell to NPC's. So that 10 million is made even faster than simply killing their 20 mobs.

Are you saying there are more people opening packs and getting 2 best luck tokens than there are people on the server killing mobs and picking up the drops?

Sorry Fuzzy... I like you and generally agree with you, but this comparison is invalid.
1) Killing 20 mobs incurs repair fees, pot use, and other expenses. These expenses scale with the amount of grinding you actually do, and while there are things you as a player can do to mitigate them, they will never go away completely.
2) The coin is created, true, but it is spread across all the players who were killing. 10 million in one person's pocket is far different from 10,000 in the pockets of two thousand.

Loltank - Harshlands

Susa your sig made me laugh sooooo hard.

Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

That's exactly what we're saying. You worked it out. b:victory

Thats just ridiculous. The amount of coin entering the economy simply as a by-product of people playing the game and killing wraiths will far out-weigh the amount injected from the best-luck tokens.

People just playing the game will, over time, cause inflation. The tokens may have a small impact upon the speed at which the inflation happens, but have you ever stopped and thought about the increase in the player base? There are more people playing PWI now than there was back in the "good ol days" of 150k gold prices you all seem so fond of.

This is a bigger contributor to the inflation than the tokens can ever be.

Loltank - Harshlands

You know what else injects cash into the economy? Oracles. 1 mob worth 10k coins is injecting way too much coin considering how many oracles are burned per day.

Conversely, hyper XP is a GREAT permanent replacement for oracles. It gives LESS coin than normal grinding, makes PWE money, and lets you enjoy your faster levelling.

TBH I would like to see hypers replace oracles as token rewards permanently and oracles be removed from the game.


@ Fuzzy: The game was set up to sustain the coins given by mobs and quests. This is why pots are priced the way they are, shards, armor, etc. It's a delicate balance that no matter how many people are grinding, they'll burn just as much coin on necessities such as skills and things.

Now, however, there are more and more outside sources of income: oracles, ten mil notes, etc. These are NOT being drained as fast because the game's NPC prices were not set to deal with them in large quantities.

The best and most permanent solution to this problem would be a dynamic pricing system for NPC's that changed how much each item cost depending on the amount of coins on the server. Removing 10 mil notes would reduce the current inflation greatly and restore a bit of much needed balance.


SHORT VERSION: No matter how many people are grinding, the same amount of people are paying for armor repairs and pots. This wealth is being cut out of the game at the same rate it's being taken in, uniformly, through normal gameplay. 2x drops affects this, as do the things I mentioned above.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Thats just ridiculous. The amount of coin entering the economy simply as a by-product of people playing the game and killing wraiths will far out-weigh the amount injected from the best-luck tokens.

People just playing the game will, over time, cause inflation. The tokens may have a small impact upon the speed at which the inflation happens, but have you ever stopped and thought about the increase in the player base? There are more people playing PWI now than there was back in the "good ol days" of 150k gold prices you all seem so fond of.

This is a bigger contributor to the inflation than the tokens can ever be.

No, it's not. Didn't you see the post where somebody pointing out to you that 10k in the pockets of 2000 people is far less of an impact then 10 million in the hands of one? You clearly haven't sat down and considered the sheer number of people who have gotten at least two best luck tokens.

Are you seriously trying to argue that people killing wraiths has injected billions upon billions of coin into the economy in one year more then the amount of coin best luck tokens has? Fail more, please, your math clearly sucks.

Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

10k in the pockets of 2000 people is far less of an impact then 10 million in the hands of one?

It is less of an impact, Fuzzy will agree with that.


However, you seem to be saying that the 10mil notes are the only source of inflation and that somehow removing them will be a magic wand and reset the economy. This is a bogus notion.

There has been billions and billions injected into the economy from people grinding, this cannot be denied. In fact, it was for this reason alone that DQ items were nerfed. It was a move to combat inflation.

Yet the people that want the notes removed to help compensate for inflation were the same ones that were outraged when the DQ price change was implemented to help combat the exact same problem.

Have you seen the length of the QQ thread about basically turning TW into a giant coin sink? This would also appear to be a measure to remove coins from the economy and also battle inflation. What are the chances that if Fuzzy were to look, alot of the same people posting here posted there as well saying that was also a bad change?

It seems that on one hand you are enthusiastic to change one aspect and combat inflation because it is not the one that effects you directly (ie: your not the ones buying packs and getting the 10mil) and on the other hand have a big problem with the measures they are taking to combat the exact problem you are speaking of because it does have a direct effect. (ie: DQ and TW)

How do you square that circle?

edit: someone is getting mad, and this is getting fun

Thelas_Carr - Sanctuary

...so, anyone still getting Chest of Coins from the end of an FCC run? I turned in 3 Sincerity / Faithfulness token pairs and not one Chest of Coins... is it possible they actually removed it?

If they took that out, is there also a chance they could be made to realize that Perfect Tokens of Best Luck should not be exchangeable directly for 10M coin, and that generally no game-item should EVER off a direct exchange in coin when it depends direclty on a Boutique item (e.g., Chest of Coins requires Perfect Hammer which is Boutique-only; Perfect Tokens of Best Luck require an Anni Pack which is Boutique-only; Ecstasy cards have no relation to Boutique and would be Ok to leave in).

Just curious is anyone's gotten a Chest of Coins in FCC since Patch 390 went live.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide wrote: »

It is less of an impact, Fuzzy will agree with that.


However, you seem to be saying that the 10mil notes are the only source of inflation and that somehow removing them will be a magic wand and reset the economy. This is a bogus notion.

No, that's your just your impression. I never said it would fix the whole economy. Ever. Quote me where I said the words "Taking out 10 mil big notes will indefinitely fix the economy" and you'll find I never said it.

Don't strap your assumptions to my words and pretend they're true, because they aren't. I said that removing the ability to make 10 million big notes with best luck tokens was a step to helping the economy recover.

There has been billions and billions injected into the economy from people grinding, this cannot be denied. In fact, it was for this reason alone that DQ items were nerfed. It was a move to combat inflation.

No, it wasn't. You clearly don't read at all because even OFFICIAL GM POSTS have explained that the DQ nerf was an implemented in the CN version to stop farmers - a problem we don't have - and that they would try and compensate for it because this version didn't need the nerf. Congratulations on proving your fail logic here and the fact you clearly never read anything about this nerf. You're destroying your own argument now.

Yet the people that want the notes removed to help compensate for inflation were the same ones that were outraged when the DQ price change was implemented to help combat the exact same problem.

How do you square that circle?

Again, the DQ nerf was implemented in CN to try and deter people who were using bots to grind for coin while AFK and the GMs stated they would discuss compensation because this was not a problem this version had.

The DQ nerf was never about stopping inflation in PWI and you are so ****ing stupid to say it was when it's written out in front of you about WHY IT WAS IMPLEMENTED that's it not even real.

Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide

Rage more Airyll b:dirty

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Rage more Airyll b:dirty

Aw, no responding argument? Finally realised how fail your own argument was?

I'm not raging at all. Far from it. I'm laughing at your **** poor argument and the fact you tried to pretend the DQ nerf was implemented in PWI for any reason at all aside from the fact they couldn't not implement it.

I'm sure a lot of other people are laughing at you for that bogus bull**** you tried to pull, too.

Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide

Funny how you pick and choose only parts of what Fuzzy says to respond to.

Does nurfing DQ reduce inflation? Yes, infact, it does.

Does changing the way TW functions reduce inflation? Remains to be seen, but Fuzzy can't see how it won't help.

Would removing 10mil notes help reduce it? Yes, infact t would.


What Fuzzy wants to know is why you are so set on championing the one change while not speaking to any that have been made that will produce, hopefully, the same result?

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear

Oh great i always now i feel both head aches in game and forum
No one is right, everyone is wrong

Tojop - Dreamweaver

Loltank - Harshlands wrote: »

Just. remove. the. 10. mil. note. from. rewards.

I'd say "This," but I feel like it's getting kind of hackneyed. Here goes nothing....

Loltank - Harshlands wrote: »

Just. remove. the. 10. mil. note. from. rewards.

That

Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Oh great i always now i feel both head aches in game and forum
No one is right, everyone is wrong

Wrong? b:chuckle

Didn't you know that if you post often enough, bold a few words in your response and resort to calling people ***** names, that on a forum its impossible to be wrong?

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear

Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Wrong? b:chuckle

Didn't you know that if you post often enough, bold a few words in your response and resort to calling people ***** names, that on a forum its impossible to be wrong?

I post often enough
I don't call people names
Everyone just seem goes into chaos

Why you mad ? b:surrender Fuzzy sound really nice to be mad . .

tweakz

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Tweaks, this is why I as well as many other people hate the packs:



I like the tokens, they're great. I think it was kind of lame putting all the event gear in that they did, but that's not the issue most of us have with them.

There are very few ways new coin is introduced into the economy. Perfect Tokens of Best Luck exchange for 10 Million Big Notes is the real issue that will affect the economy the most in the long run.

We have to be ignoring that those tokens are also almost required to get some of the mats for the weapon of the sages which also means they're coin sinks at the same time. We also have to be ignoring the rewards from the events. Just placing in the top 5 got me 12m coin for a little over a half an hours work. We also would have to ignore of the gambler's dilemnas. Gamblers never say how much they lost to get one little they gain. So while you complain about them getting 10m coin for opening a couple packs, you have to ignore how much they've lost and will lose opening other packs.

10m is not a lot. Toons over Lv.100 have the chance to get 2m coin a day just off of BH2. There are TT drops worth more. I've made more off of buying and selling a single item in less than a week. I've made it in one day of double drops. I could make it in 15 days of leveling a new characters to 30. I could make it in ~30 1/2 hour nirvana runs. I could make it in about 10 days of buying and selling. The complaints here are so similar to the complaints on the veno forums concerning the cost of Hercs.

If DQ prices going down made grinding not profitable, then why do I still make a profit off BH runs even after wine share costs and repairs? BH SoT can be done unwined in about 10m more than avg unwined. The problem is people are too lazy to do more work than they have to. It's quicker for a squad to take down a mob than it is to ninja, yet what do most peopled do? It took me a long time to convince people that fb59 did not take 4 hours unwined, it didn't even take an hour at 7x, and it didn't take me more than 13m to get to a single boss there. People create rumors to suit their selfishness and laziness. They want tabbers to pay an unreasonable amount of coin so they can save some work and actually lose potential profit.

It's the same thing in this thread. Some people want things cheaper than they're worth. I don't like this company any more than anyone else I assure you. I will not however sit by idly and watch people complain about ridiculous things when there are legitimate gripes.

I like the economy and I'm not a cash shopper. The packs are one of the few things PWI is doing right.