[Discussion of Territory War Changes 8-5-10]

X_Diogenes_x - Sanctuary

frankieraye wrote: »

It's a valid point, but still, 500M+ coins going into the server every week as TW payouts surely had an effect on the economy, don't you agree?

No offence but I personally can't take any mention of coin sinks from you guys seriously when we can all SEE how many Tokens of Best Luck are coming into the game (thanks to important, relevant-to-all-players system messages). Not to mention just how long players have been saying that these tokens need to be taken out/the 10m coin trade removed.

Maybe if PW actually gave a rat's **** about the economy it would have been fixed long ago.

And frankie this isn't a personal attack, but you'd have saved time just copy/pasting the official replies from the JJ "coin sink".

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Foxgrit - Lost City wrote: »

Your argument is completely flawed.

You dont have to spend millions. All you have to do is buy a $4 charm. You want your "fun" to come free you dont want to have to pay for it. If TW is so much fun for you either put in a little effort or pay for your fun. You think that you should have your "fun" and then get paid for it as well. Typically you have to pay to have fun they dont pay you to have fun.

To bad you need about 4 to 5 of those charms every singe week.

And a $4 dollar charm IS millions when our gold price is so stupidly high.

OneHottShot - Heavens Tear

Siiobhan - Archosaur wrote: »

The part you seem to be missing is that smaller factions with one or two lands will not get enough coin to even be able to afford to defend those lands. It costs 1.4 Million to build towers alone. The Big Factions full of cash shoppers truly gain the upper hand since they can afford to auction some gold and buy what they need. As the Leader of Fatalis (which has the third most land on our server at 7 lands) I talk every day almost with Leaders of the smaller TW guilds that we fight against. In our case we will still be getting just enough from this to operate our TW campaigns, but the smaller guilds than us (ones that own one or two land and try as hard as they can) are getting SHAFTED. Under the old system they could probably build the towers and maybe get some charms for their cata barbs. Now they can build one round of towers and four catapult scrolls with they get and then if they want to attack also, they have to dig in the pockets of the members. This will drive the members away and to bigger factions. Add to that the non-return on bids and no small faction can afford to compete in any way.

BTW price of gold on Arch server already going UP. It's not the game that dictates the price of gold, it's what the cash shop players are willing to sell it for. Without TW pay, they will need to get more income somehow and will likely resort to overpricing gold even more IMO.

I didn't miss a thing. You people are over reacting like normal.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

OneHottShot - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I didn't miss a thing. You people are over reacting like normal.

Judging by your kill count, 1, it seems pretty apparent that you don't TW at all. So bascially you're putting in an uninformed opinion and are telling everyone to deal with it. That's a bit of a mockery and at least you can admit you're only enjoying this out of spite because you have not had to actually deal with the costs of war yourself. b:bye

Iulius - Heavens Tear

Gratz PWI Devs on ruining a grate game....but i am sure you did not reach the bottom line you will go **** us even more

Go Go you can do it

Yishuin - Sanctuary

frankieraye wrote: »

Considering that multiple TW related threads went up within minutes of the Content Update post being published, I'd say there's a lot to discuss.

Well i laughed a lot while reading the changes for TW system. But you are right players have the right to discuss.

However

Tremblewith - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What's there to discuss? Did you forget the Anni pack thread? 100+ pages discussed, and packs are still around. You all won't do a single damn thing, and EVERYONE already knows it.

Kthxbai

i have to agree with Tremblewith. Players can complain all they want about it, devs will not give a damn s... about their expectation.

My opinion? Here it is.

You make a thread to discuss about a major update for TW because there are a lot of threads appearing but its too late. Its already implemented and devs will not change it.
So there is nothing to discuss. Players will talk talk talk talk but devs won't listen won't listen won't listen and won't listen again. And as you (GM, CM, etc...) have to follow chinese devs way, you can't do anything for us about this change.

I hope this thread is in the ToS as i don't say anything bad about PWE but just point out some facts.

NOTE : i don't TW at all, but as Tremblewith said, its the same thing with packs (thread with many many pages) and DQ prices (same thing). We are still waiting and all we got is more bugs or things we totally don't care about.

Surentos - Lost City

this part is certainly true. but they won't remove the packs even if the game becomes a "dead" game. and what kept the game going originally was the fun of the game. now that all the csers have op gear the pk scene is nearly (if not already) impossible for a non cser who has a life. 4x gold prices + overkill in pvp + tw only costing a fortune ( i don't mind not getting low rewards for TW. the only thing i dislike about that section of updates is how you don't get a refund or even a notice that your bid failed. and nobody knows who bid on what for how much + only one bid. ya i guess factions will be forced to bid high and the higher factions which no longer get anything for tw may not bid as high might have a slight advantage in that respect but still seems slightly limited. . . . looks at nefarious for sanctuary where 80% of there players are in tw for the tw payout rofl that faction is about to die.)

TigerLily - Lost City

frankieraye wrote: »

These changes could very well lower the amount of coins necessary to win a bid, hopefully even to a level where smaller guilds would feel comfortable risking its loss.

But why would a guild even bother to risk money bidding on land when there is no reward at all for winning it?

Spend coins and no refund is fine, if you actually got something from winning the territory. But you get 150 mirages split among the 60-80 players that participated in the TW.

I mean most players get over 500-1000 mirages every week just from BH100, Event, TT, Nirvana and MQ.

Hope Developers realizes how absurd it is b:surrender

Loltank - Harshlands

I love how our GMs are doggedly defending this patch and blatantly refusing to acknowledge that it just might suck.

The wedding chapel? Awesome. New item linking? Awesome. Celestial Tiger? Mega-awesome. UI changes? Meh, could be better, nothing to rage about.

Ruining the TW system? Not awesome.

As it stands now, here are the things you've ensured: NO smaller factions will ever get a TW. Between uncatchable fake bidding(thanks to the new private bidding system)and the prohibitive cost of TW without any sort of compensation should you succeed(thanks to the new "payment" system), no guild that DOESN'T cash shop heavily will ever get a shot at TW.

Essentially, TW is now only for the richest of the rich, and after a few weeks of THIER coin being burned and no one else's, they're going to stop using the broken system.


Or maybe this is just a long term ploy to make packs the only effect method of getting coins? DQ price drop, TW pay dropping, what's next? Gonna remove the ability to sell TT mats and nirvana crystals?

Gms, AT THE VERY LEAST, acknowledge that the majority of the community is PISSED about this update and pass on our concerns. Because at the moment, all we see is fat cats refusing to see legitimate criticism.

TruthWarren - Raging Tide

Ok, so you stated that you "understand that this is a drastic change to the Territory War system." Ya think? Large factions will crumble. TW will DIE. Now we won't know who's bidding on who. We won't be able to act on information that isn't provided to us. Furthermore, any incentive to bid on territories and subsequently wage war has been eliminated. Faction leaders will be hesitant to bid on territories out of fear that their money will go to waste. I laughed about your statement of the economy coming back "down to earth" by the way. Let me lay out what that really means "we have adjusted the system so that the economy in PW will hit rock bottom. You'll have to cash shop to get ahead, if you will." Fixed.

Perfect World: Cash shop or fall far behind. Again I doubt you really care. You're still getting paid. Your company is still profiting. Here's a little secret though: even the cash shoppers are quitting. How are you gonna make money off a game nobody is going to play? Think about that one.

Healing_Buns - Sanctuary

Foxgrit - Lost City wrote: »

Your argument is completely flawed.

You dont have to spend millions. All you have to do is buy a $4 charm. You want your "fun" to come free you dont want to have to pay for it. If TW is so much fun for you either put in a little effort or pay for your fun. You think that you should have your "fun" and then get paid for it as well. Typically you have to pay to have fun they dont pay you to have fun.

Haha lvl 30 player.. yeah 1 gold charm a weekend.. IM a cleric and i go throught 1.5-2 gold charms a weekend. I have gone through as many as 2 plat charms in a long weekend when we defend againts 3-4 major factions all in the same week.

Dont be a sheep... and follow this **** they are trying to feed us.. Talk to some people who have TW experience... There are 2 sides of every story.. Dont ever believe the Devs or GMs when they tell you this is gonna be good for you...they have bosses who feed them blanket answers.

I luv you frankie but sorry if I was you id cut the leash and find a respectible company to work for!

swgs

frankieraye wrote: »

It's a valid point, but still, 500M+ coins going into the server every week as TW payouts surely had an effect on the economy, don't you agree?

I do not know the exact number, but I am sure remove token of best luck or remove the option to trade token of best luck for 5m is more effective then remove TW pay. TW is the reason most player spending money for their end game gears. If less people participate in TW, the end result will be less pack sells.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear

Oneji - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Just face it, PW is a business.With gold prices that low before(80k-120k), would it not be the obvious solution to just grind and buy that gold? Of course PW is smart to and found a way to inflate the gold prices buy using packs as the main line of defense and chest of coins as their ultimate back up defense.So the lower levels could no longer just grind and buy gold so easily. Instead PW discouraged them so they would buy coins with real money. And there you go PW in a way solved their problemb:thanks.


But of course they would not tell you that in wordsb:laugh.

You forget one main thing. EVERY gold bought for 80-120k, was STILL 1 gold bought by a zen charger. It doesnt matter if the gold was bought from gold trader (which was in turn bought by someone with RL cash) or if you bought the gold directly with your own RL cash. EVERY gold used in the cash shop, was bought with RL cash.

Basically these changes make it harder for free players to use the gold trader. Instead the wealthy just rebuy packs over & over. PWI is obviously making money because of the packs, but it has nothing to do with if someone bought gold through gold trader or directly.

Ornitorinc - Raging Tide

Honestly I would have expected the chinese developers to come up with more creative solutions for this.

It's obvious there are 2 issues to be fixed here:
1. Counter fake bids
2. Add a coin sink/decrease coin inflow

There could have been a lot better solutions for this.
For the first one they could have come up with some requirements for bidding. For example only level 3 factions with at least (number) level (number) people can bid and attacking factions that do not show up with at least (number) people in that tw to be banned from bidding for a certain period of time. I came up with this in just 2 minutes, I'm sure it could be refined to counter fake biddings even more without affecting honest factions.

As for a coin sink there could be numerous things to be done. For example selling unpopular cash shop items in-game for coins. You could sell materials at NPCs for a low enough price so it would be at hand to buy from there instead of from other players, together with an increase in mines respawn time and decrease in material drop rate. This could be a huge coin sink. It would upset the "farmers" but let's be honest here there are A LOT more people affected by TW changes than material changes

OneHottShot - Heavens Tear

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Judging by your kill count, 1, it seems pretty apparent that you don't TW at all. So bascially you're putting in an uninformed opinion and are telling everyone to deal with it. That's a bit of a mockery and at least you can admit you're only enjoying this out of spite because you have not had to actually deal with the costs of war yourself. b:bye

That kill count of 1 must be a mistake. I've never done TW or PK. I hope they fix that.

No, I don't tw. My opinion isn't uninformed. I read the same news, forums and updates that you do. I am informed quite well. I am not "enjoying" this. In the sense you think that I am.

However; I am looking forward to being able to maybe join a tw faction and TW for the fun of it. Without worrying about charms, and pots and who wins. Just for the FUN OF IT. Those who rely on it for a pay check are ticked, I get it. But I don't care b/c now the rest of us who don't have 100's of dollars to spend on this game a month can now compete and not feel intimidated.

I think they should have went a step further and only allowed certain lvls of factions to compete for certain lands. So the noob lvl 1 factions full of lvl 1-50 could actually own the noob lands... but hey.. I didn't make the changes.

I didn't deal with the cost of war b/c I was smart enough NOT to. I didn't want to spend millions a week on charms for no return. Even though they just made the no return now official, if what you guys said is true and you wasn't making enough to cover costs there will be no difference now. You just have to work a bit harder.

In essence. I'm saying put on your big boy pants and suck it up.

TruthWarren - Raging Tide wrote: »

Ok, so you stated that you "understand that this is a drastic change to the Territory War system." Ya think? Large factions will crumble. TW will DIE. Now we won't know who's bidding on who. We won't be able to act on information that isn't provided to us. Furthermore, any incentive to bid on territories and subsequently wage war has been eliminated. Faction leaders will be hesitant to bid on territories out of fear that their money will go to waste. I laughed about your statement of the economy coming back "down to earth" by the way. Let me lay out what that really means "we have adjusted the system so that the economy in PW will hit rock bottom. You'll have to cash shop to get ahead, if you will." Fixed.

Perfect World: Cash shop or fall far behind. Again I doubt you really care. You're still getting paid. Your company is still profiting. Here's a little secret though: even the cash shoppers are quitting. How are you gonna make money off a game nobody is going to play? Think about that one.

Why would you consider this a bad thing? Thats how it should have been to begin with.

You mean factions can't employ spies any longer... again.. a bad thing?

You are a bit clueless here, people who TW buy gold, they do not purchase it through the boutique. Why? They don't have to, they have their uber TW large pay checks.. right.. I mean thats why ev1 is upset b/c the pay is gone...? You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say the pay out is so important that you're upset its gone and then jusitfy the means with well we weren't making enough to cover cost as it is. Either way.. no 1 should have to pay you to have fun, have it at your own expense.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Gold since the patch @ 470-495k
Gold before the patch @ 440-470k.

+12 Orb available in a $1 pack?

Putting the most expensive item in the game in a pack for $1 is not an ideal solution to drive down the prices of gold. It's sad that has to be explained.

b:bye

NightRage - Raging Tide

Lol 2 of the games are censored...

CeliaZ - Sanctuary

Some of you people say that the 2x Token of best luck = 10 million is causing the inflation, not the TW payout.

Now I may be good with math or music, but I dont understand a tiny bit about economyb:surrender Could someone explain why the Token of best luck exchange is causing inflation?

MrMime - Raging Tide

lol frankie...removing the list of mmorpgs that i provided will not help you retain this player base. nice try though.

OneHottShot - Heavens Tear

MrMime - Raging Tide wrote: »

lol frankie...removing the list of mmorpgs that i provided will not help you retain this player base. nice try though.

They was censored... the gm did not remove them..

SaintDominic - Sanctuary

WitchingHour - Dreamweaver wrote: »

**** up TW is a good way to lose a large number of your cash shopping players lol. Maybe not such a good idea.b:surrender

Cashopping players are the ones making this game free -sigh-

pitecantropul

enjoy our new crappy low lvl grafic ****!!!!!!!

Squirrel - Harshlands

IEpicHealz - Archosaur wrote: »

More like 10k if your lucky xD

Miss_cube - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This is so omg... 150 mirages (as TW pay) for a land? And a mirage can be sell only for 15k? I dun think it can covers any TW repairs and the charms used b:surrender

Imagine 80 ppl in a faction joins the TW, so most of the members will only get 1 mirage or maybe sum get 2? Cant believe it XD

It simply kills the fun of TWing b:cry

_Montgomery_ - Archosaur wrote: »

I totally support this change. Big, land-owning factions can't jack the economy anymore. That's a good thing, peoples. TWing for fun, not profit? Awesome!

do you know how mutch you need to spend in one 3 hour tw to defend land ?

Michael_Dark - Lost City

OneHottShot - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No, I don't tw. My opinion isn't uninformed. I read the same news, forums and updates that you do. I am informed quite well. I am not "enjoying" this. In the sense you think that I am.

Ok, perhaps unexperienced. You haven't had to deal with when two leading guilds fight on a regular basis. Of course it's fun, but it's quite expensive. Some people are willing to dump tons of RL money into the game, others can't. TW pay helps to cover some of those costs making it more competitive and levels the playing field somewhat.

However; I am looking forward to being able to maybe join a tw faction and TW for the fun of it. Without worrying about charms, and pots and who wins. Just for the FUN OF IT. Those who rely on it for a pay check are ticked, I get it. But I don't care b/c now the rest of us who don't have 100's of dollars to spend on this game a month can now compete and not feel intimidated.

The people who spend hundreds of dollars won't be hurt by this and don't care. It's the free players, or those that spend little that it actually hurts. So take the fun away from people who wish to compete but can't afford it. It's not like "oh you gotta buy one charm"... I've had weekends where I've gone through 5 charms. I guess my only other alternative is to play more or quit. Those are lovely options.

I didn't deal with the cost of war b/c I was smart enough NOT to. I didn't want to spend millions a week on charms for no return. Even though they just made the no return now official, if what you guys said is true and you wasn't making enough to cover costs there will be no difference now. You just have to work a bit harder.

In essence. I'm saying put on your big boy pants and suck it up.

You want to TW for fun, but if you're not going to invest in charms, trying to face one of the larger factions will be even more difficult than it would be. I guess if you're not prepared to having to fight 2-3 wars a weekend it doesn't matter to you. The larger factions will still own more land.

Since you haven't invested the time, resources or farming to play an important role in TW, everyone else who has should spend more RL money or play the game even more to remain competitive?

My point is that removing TW pay isn't going to help the economy in any measurable way, it removes the free players from competing at the top and it doesn't help the smaller guilds at all because they'll still be rolled by the larger factions, and their costs will have increased as well, making them just as unlikely as they are now to bid as before. With non-refundable bids, they're less likely to win a bid against a smaller faction's land who might have several bidders, while the larger factions will still remain untouched by those smaller factions not willing to just throw 2m+ down the drain.

I honestly don't see these changes spurring any increase in wars, I just see it as another attempt at forcing more players to spend more real life cash in the game. Only time will tell if it has worked, but judging by the current gold prices on my server, it has had a negative effect. Just because people who can't or don't TW are enjoying the fact they can rub this in the face of those that do doesn't make this a positive change at all.

MrMime - Raging Tide

OneHottShot - Heavens Tear wrote: »

They was censored... the gm did not remove them..

No, i made a post listing a bunch of MMORPGs that people should be playing. Two of them were censored, the rest were not. However, that whole post is now gone. I don't really care, just kind of funny how frankie found that my list, not their failings, will be the reason to lose players. MY LIST. lol.

Dsholder - Dreamweaver

In Warsong we are awarded pills that give tons of defence, so maybe when entering TW we could get a free charm that expires when leaving the instance? That'd....be nice and would quit the QQing about people TWing for coin for compensation eh? And to combat players already using a charm for PvE make it so that the charm spots don't work in TW, just let the pill work . And as far as apoth goes, faction members can farm herbs to make apoth. b:victory

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Dsholder - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In Warsong we are awarded pills that give tons of defence, so maybe when entering TW we could get a free charm that expires when leaving the instance? That'd....be nice and would quit the QQing about people TWing for coin for compensation eh? And to combat players already using a charm for PvE make it so that the charm spots don't work in TW, just let the pill work . And as far as apoth goes, faction members can farm herbs to make apoth. b:victory

That would be amazing... but then that would cut the profits that PWI is trying to boost. They would never allow this. Ever.

IEpicHealz - Archosaur

Squirrel - Harshlands wrote: »

do you know how mutch you need to spend in one 3 hour tw to defend land ?

Me personally, 1.5+ mil
As an entire guild, Millions.
But hey thats ok, we'll all go to TW and spend a mil or two cause its so worth it for 2 mirages

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Dsholder - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In Warsong we are awarded pills that give tons of defence, so maybe when entering TW we could get a free charm that expires when leaving the instance? That'd....be nice and would quit the QQing about people TWing for coin for compensation eh? And to combat players already using a charm for PvE make it so that the charm spots don't work in TW, just let the pill work . And as far as apoth goes, faction members can farm herbs to make apoth. b:victory

I suggested something similar to this, but this will cut down on gold spending so it will never ever happen because ANY idea that would ever cut back on gold sales, even a tiny amount, is auto rejected.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Squirrel - Harshlands wrote: »

do you know how mutch you need to spend in one 3 hour tw to defend land ?

I do. I've been in 3 hour defenses and attacks. The cost doesn't bother me, I'll keep doing TW, even more so on my barbarian who I made just to do TW with.