Hp/Mp Charm Tics

Myralis - Sanctuary

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Still, sounds more selfish than selfless. So if I'm killing a mob, see you aggro one, you wouldn't mind if you knew I could easily take aggro of it and didn't because it would require a little effort?

Some might call me a troll, but I always pose valid questions and counterpoints... for the most part.

Its funny how people expect clerics to die for them.
If you wont die cause youre charmed and too lazy too attack well.. why am I dying for you? Youre alive, Id be dead.
Sometimes being selfish saves lifes, ya know. And when it comes to healing agro... its easier and cheaper to get a DD back to live than the only cleric in squad.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Myralis - Sanctuary wrote: »

Its funny how people expect clerics to die for them.
If you wont die cause youre charmed and too lazy too attack well.. why am I dying for you? Youre alive, Id be dead.
Sometimes being selfish saves lifes, ya know. And when it comes to healing agro... its easier and cheaper to get a DD back to live than the only cleric in squad.

I actually sacrifice myself for the sake of the party or cleric...that's my job in the party. If I don't do that I'd consider myself pretty fail if the party ends up wiping.

So you're happy as long as you have a meat shield to take your damage, but don't particularly care if their charms tick or if they're dying for you?

Do you carry dolls or res scrolls?

RedsRose - Lost City

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

I actually sacrifice myself for the sake of the party or cleric...that's my job in the party. If I don't do that I'd consider myself pretty fail if the party ends up wiping.

So you're happy as long as you have a meat shield to take your damage, but don't particularly care if their charms tick or if they're dying for you?

Do you carry dolls or res scrolls?

Any good cleric should be able to kill/survive long enough in MOST situations. I can say some there is just nothing you can do about (*cough* 3-3 getting aggro'd by that damn Gaurnob and his two friends >_> *cough*) and those are extreme cases.

I personally say sry if a charm ticks, but there are times when there is nothing I can do or ppl ninja half of fb99 SoT and then expect my SLOW behind to save them b:sad

I think the overall difference here is competence. If you know ALL (not just IH and WS), a Cleric can survive just about anything.



Oh and fyi...always has res scrolls and dolls while the rest of the squad benefits from lvl11 revive b:sad


PS --> I will have an entire squad killed off in a bad situation before I let myself die. It is my job to do all I can but if it is hopeless, I will do all I can to live.

Myralis - Sanctuary

Hmmm you missed my point.
Course I dont wanna see people die but if Im unbuffed myself and I know Im probably gonna die from it.. why risk it. Just grab agro and Ill start healing you.


And for surviving worst cases.. Yeah I can be pretty creative. I do my best to keep everyone up and alive but its logical to me to not risk too much.


As for that question.. I dont care about exp that much. Its a game.

RedsRose - Lost City

Myralis - Sanctuary wrote: »

Hmmm you missed my point.
Course I dont wanna see people die but if Im unbuffed myself and I know Im probably gonna die from it.. why risk it. Just grab agro and Ill start healing you.


As for that question.. I dont care about exp that much. Its a game.

In most situations, and I said most, if you buffs run out, it should not matter. Why? Because in most situations you are healing and not being touched = not need. Also, you can rebuff right before the boss as a just in case or right before you begin the instance. More of a safety net. The only buff you might need to worry about it Magic Shell as it is still bugged.


Additionally -

Dolls = optional

Res Scrolls = should have at least one for situations that would require to to spend 10minutes running back >_>

Myralis - Sanctuary

Well I dont buff in an instance til everyones there or til enough people are there to start clearing it. Using buff macros and well... magic shell screws up more than it would be loved for. b:cold


And I love holy path in those situations. Cant think of a dungeon that takes me whole 10 minutes running tho b:surrender

Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear

Myralis - Sanctuary wrote: »

And I love holy path in those situations. Cant think of a dungeon that takes me whole 10 minutes running tho b:surrender

FF can, depending how far in you are b:surrender.

I agree with you though, i don't heal till all mobs are agro'd. Im not taking hits because they failed to agro properly b:chuckle. I often die to save others but only when it is my fault or it is a good squad. I've lost count at the amount of people i have refused to revive b:pleased.

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

Amaliee - Archosaur wrote: »

See it's this kind of logic that gets away from me. This example, and a lot of others, have posted instances where hp charms take precedent in the event of any charm loss and seem oblivious to the fact that of course the same logic can and should be applied to a cleric.

They keep you and others alive with their mana. Maintaining mana is not any less important than maintaining hp when this is occurring. No one is saying MP Charms > HP Charms but come on barbs, clerics are your BEST FRIENDS and they are the ONLY way you can tank properly. There needs to be some sort of balance here where you can each give and take from one another, neither in excess. And I think it would start by acknowledging that clerics have charm ticks as well, some required but some unnecessary when/if a tank demands more than they actually need.

((Just wanted to add that all of this could be fixed if we could simply take charms off/change what percentage they tick at))

You're alter-scenario was fail, because only a fail cleric would not have any mp in a normal bh run (not talking about mana drain bosses here.)

HP charm ---> if you can't pot/be healed fast enough
MP charm ---> You don't want to have to pay attention to your mana.

And personally as a wizard, mp charms = total waste of coin.

Yuanxio ftw!

KayLinda - Sanctuary

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

MP charms will not save you from death, and to an extent have no greater purpose other then allowing a certain sort of laziness. There are many places where HP pots are not going to save your **** (especially since pot healing is over time, not instant). So people dont see MP charms the same way, they are less forced and more of a choice to be lazy instead of using MP pots & event MP pots, and thereby dont deserve the same consideration of prevention.

Not saying i agree, just explaining the logic i've heard.

I can't even begin to state the utter ignorance the statements you quote portray. They were given from a true, pure melee point of view - very generalized and very wrong. But as they say, "If your only tool is a hammer you tend to view everything as a nail".

I have played both melees and casters in PWI and in other similar games. True, that in 90% of all cases, running out of mana does not result in certain death, whereas, running out of HPs is 100% fatal. However, I can site several situations where a MP charm is not just a matter of being a lazy caster. Here are a few reasons why a mana charm comes in handy:

-- - Large DOTs may require a spell cast + hp pot in order to restore more HPs than are currently ticking off.

-- Many bosses take quite a while to kill. It may be possible to do it with a melee and a cleric, but melees do not do the damage that casters do. Typically, these require continuous casting to keep the damage going. Pots do not restore mana fast enough. I suppose we could take a few, 2 minute med breaks during battle to recharge - but, what happens to the precious HP charms if we do so? I mean, a prolonged battle has to chew up that charm. Essentially, the faster the mobs die, the less the charms tick.

-- Multiple mobs - a good tank switches between mobs to hold aggro on each one of them. However, while the tank is damaging one, the others are receiving little or no damage. Some may be healing. It's nice to have some regular AOEs going on all mobs engaged so that when tank switches back the mob is down in life not up in life. GUess what? That takes mana.

- buffs - not just self buffs but group buffs. That also takes mana. Guess we could buff then med then hope there is enough buff time left to actually fight.

- chi - many of our spells require 1 or 2 sparks. One way to build sparks is to throw buffs and heals between battles. That also takes mana.

-- Breakaway mobs - Sometimes mobs break free from tank. Especially after a good crit - I for one would like to have sufficient mana to stun or knock the mob back.

-- In some situations (mostly with multiple casting mobs) I will purposely draw the aggro of one or more of them in order to inflict high AOE damage on all mobs. I use pots, healing spells, and charms to stay alive. Besides, some tanks don't do well with magic dealing mobs - this helps abate their HP charm ticking.

As for the cost, has anyone computed what the cost in gold would be to provide the same amount of mana healing using pots as it would to use a gold charm? I look at it this way, my wife and I get hours of enjoyment out of this game. It's worth a couple of mana and hp charms to get a full weekend of play in to us. It's roughly the same cost of renting a couple of movies (which would be far less time for the money). But, then again, I am not a starving college kid bemoaning the fact that anybody should have to pay for anything to play a game - LOL

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

KayLinda - Sanctuary wrote: »

As for the cost, has anyone computed what the cost in gold would be to provide the same amount of mana healing using pots as it would to use a gold charm?

With current token and gold prices pots are over 10 times cheaper. The only class that needs an mp charm are clerics who PVP (for plume shell).

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Well it depends. I've done enough tanking to know that sometimes my HP will get to below 1/2 and there is simply nothing the cleric can do, now with that being said I will sometimes rage if my HP charm ticks and the cleric can prevent it. The last time I did a TT I remember raging at the cleric because on the boss we were doing, the cleric started out spamming ironheart and it was fine, my charm never ticked everything was going great. Then halway through for no apparent reason the cleric decided to start spamming wellspring, as a result my charm started ticking.


But I honestly just hate doing TT or anything else with a charm in general. The only time that situation will ever occur is if I equip a charm for TW and end up with some left over. I REALLY wish the developers would listen to the players for once and give us the option to unequip charms but I guess that will never happen.

KayLinda - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

With current token and gold prices pots are over 10 times cheaper. The only class that needs an mp charm are clerics who PVP (for plume shell).

OK, I did some generalized math and it works out like this:

a gold mp charm has 900,000 mps to it and triggers at 75% of mana pool. It currently costs $4 from the boutique.

A large mystery potion is 535 plat (I believe) and restores 1250 mps per bottle. Thus, it would take 720 pots to restore 900,000 mana points. At 535 plat per bottle, that is 385,200 plat for 900k mana points. If gold is at 350k plat/gold then the cost is roughly $1.1 for 900k.

So it is cheaper to use mana pots. Ok, then you move on to play style issues. To save $2.90 you get to make sure that you manually start the regen process when needed. If you are diligent and click the pot when you are down 1250 mps, you stay full. That's a lot of diligence, but your healing is only 10 seconds from reuse.

However, if you have a mana pool of 10k and are down 80%, then that takes 6.4 mana pots and a med time of over a minute to restore full mana (with pots). For a barb, one drink fills the tank - LOL.

So looking at it, I guess I am lazy b:pleased - because for the price of a hamburger, I can remove the constant need to spam pots over several days and concentrate more on my spell sequence and lifeline. But the fact is, it is cheaper to use pots. Question is, do you really have to just because it's cheaper?

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

KayLinda - Sanctuary wrote: »

OK, I did some generalized math and it works out like this:

a gold mp charm has 900,000 mps to it and triggers at 75% of mana pool. It currently costs $4 from the boutique.

A large mystery potion is 535 plat (I believe) and restores 1250 mps per bottle. Thus, it would take 720 pots to restore 900,000 mana points. At 535 plat per bottle, that is 385,200 plat for 900k mana points. If gold is at 350k plat/gold then the cost is roughly $1.1 for 900k.

So it is cheaper to use mana pots. Ok, then you move on to play style issues. To save $2.90 you get to make sure that you manually start the regen process when needed. If you are diligent and click the pot when you are down 1250 mps, you stay full. That's a lot of diligence, but your healing is only 10 seconds from reuse.

However, if you have a mana pool of 10k and are down 80%, then that takes 6.4 mana pots and a med time of over a minute to restore full mana (with pots). For a barb, one drink fills the tank - LOL.

So looking at it, I guess I am lazy b:pleased - because for the price of a hamburger, I can remove the constant need to spam pots over several days and concentrate more on my spell sequence and lifeline. But the fact is, it is cheaper to use pots. Question is, do you really have to just because it's cheaper?

Now do that math with Yuanxio (lvl 75 event mp food) which runs for about 1-2k tops and restores 5k mp over 10 seconds. Then you'll see why so many people say charms aren't worth it.

RedsRose - Lost City

ElderSig - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Now do that math with Yuanxio (lvl 75 event mp food) which runs for about 1-2k tops and restores 5k mp over 10 seconds. Then you'll see why so many people say charms aren't worth it.

Even better -->

Be a Sage Cleric and get level 11 Spirits Gift b:cuteb:victory

KayLinda - Sanctuary

ElderSig - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Now do that math with Yuanxio (lvl 75 event mp food) which runs for about 1-2k tops and restores 5k mp over 10 seconds. Then you'll see why so many people say charms aren't worth it.

... I'm sure it tips the scale. I may be showing some ignorance here (should Yuanxio be available to toons lower than 75) ...but ... it doesn't alter my current situation being that I am only level 71. I will revisit that solution (which sound viable) when I get to 75. Then I can buy a hamburger instead of charms. b:laugh

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary

KayLinda - Sanctuary wrote: »

... I'm sure it tips the scale. I may be showing some ignorance here (should Yuanxio be available to toons lower than 75) ...but ... it doesn't alter my current situation being that I am only level 71. I will revisit that solution (which sound viable) when I get to 75. Then I can buy a hamburger instead of charms. b:laugh

There are other low level event pots. b:surrender

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Or you can just use event pots that restore 5kmp and are 3 tokens for a stack of 50, so 30k for 50. So 600 coins for 5k mp.


Edit: wow ninja'd

ninjakatt

Apologize for the charm users out there but I wish those things would cease to exist. It's hard to find a skilled player when the player can just pull out the credit card and win. Yea it's annoying when charm users QQ when charm ticks in parties with cleric(s). These are same people that probably can't play the game without a charm so they really are bad players. If you need cash shop charm to play the game then you fail... simple as that. This also goes for any form of PvP.

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

ninjakatt wrote: »

Apologize for the charm users out there but I wish those things would cease to exist. It's hard to find a skilled player when the player can just pull out the credit card and win. Yea it's annoying when charm users QQ when charm ticks in parties with cleric(s). These are same people that probably can't play the game without a charm so they really are bad players. If you need cash shop charm to play the game then you fail... simple as that. This also goes for any form of PvP.

<----FCs with charm (and no not with hypers ;>>)

I've done it with crab meat before, but with the bosses and the 100 mob room it is much easier to survive with a charm when you have the hp pool of a wiz and you steal agro on the mobs with DB all the time >.<.

My charm is there to save my life in sticky situations, can I live without it? Probably yeah, considering I played uncharmed until I started FCing. Does it make it easier? Yes. Does it make me a bad player? No.

And as for charms for pvp, I personally think they could have come up with a much better system.
ijs

Furries - Dreamweaver

y know this whole thing could be avoided if we could just unequip charms

i see no reason for them to be bind "as" equipped rather than just bind to char "when" equipped

MP charms are stupid. at 75% tick ur only every use 1/4th of ur mana pool.

HP charms tick at 50%

personally i HATE Hp charms. but i need 1 for gamma so i have 1. when im not in gamma i dont want it to tick.

if i could unequip it. then it would only tick when i want it to... in gamma

i probly would be spend alot more $ on charms than i have now if i could un equip them

becuase as it is now.. i will do everything possible to not have to buy one.

SilverCleric - Lost City

ninjakatt wrote: »

Apologize for the charm users out there but I wish those things would cease to exist. It's hard to find a skilled player when the player can just pull out the credit card and win. Yea it's annoying when charm users QQ when charm ticks in parties with cleric(s). These are same people that probably can't play the game without a charm so they really are bad players. If you need cash shop charm to play the game then you fail... simple as that. This also goes for any form of PvP.

If charms cease to exist, it would make the game more challenging witch would make people actually think of strategies to complete difficult squad related tasks like doing a TT run or a Frost, witch would make the game more fun since that would force people to learn to use their genies and pots to survive in a instance. That also go's for PvP, if there were no charms in PvP it would be more of a challenge to kill other players. b:pleased

It would be a good idea to get rid of charms altogether but like always people will always complain about it. b:surrender

Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear

SilverCleric - Lost City wrote: »

If charms cease to exist, it would make the game more challenging witch would make people actually think of strategies to complete difficult squad related tasks like doing a TT run or a Frost, witch would make the game more fun since that would force people to learn to use their genies and pots to survive in a instance.

Charms aren't needed for TT (Up to TT3-1 and no belial in TT2-3) or in FF.

That also go's for PvP, if there were no charms in PvP it would be more of a challenge to kill other players. b:pleased People dont like a challenge, hence why we have BH, MQ, WQ, CS, Nerfed Instances. People obviously complained it was too hard so they made it easier.

It would be a good idea to get rid of charms altogether but like always people will always complain about it. b:surrender They are there to make money.

b:chuckle..............

TigerLily - Lost City

I use to get annoyed with barbs crying about charm ticks to - than i got better gear/higher refines and realized how short a gold charm actually lasts once you starts getting decent hp.

I mean it goes poof in 1 hour easy lol. Specially as a barb when u start having 20-25k+ hp, not many ticks the charm can take before its gone. So i kinda understand why barbs complain more about ticks than other classes, it costs them 3 times as much.

How ever there is NO instance in this game where a barb with decent gear actually needs a hp-charm to stay alive with +10 blessing and genies - so for pve purpose i kinda think you're a dumbass for putting it on in the first place, as a tank. It will tick, cant be avoided even if they clerics are doing a great job.

All tho many tanks have a charm on for pvp-purpose and you cant really remove it once its time to enter an instance or do pve-related, as we all know. Than its rather disrespectful seeing clerics not giving a **** about the tanks charm ticking b:angry

Mp-charms is kinda not needed at all with the cheap event pots out, really only lazy ppl that what wanna afk that uses them so i dunno why people compare with/complain about mp-charm ticks O_O

I guess clerics do need them to hold up plume shield in TW and such and than of course it sucks when it goes poof after a few runs in Nirvana/TT/Frost.

SilverCleric - Lost City

Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear wrote: »

b:chuckle..............

Lol you do have a point there people are to lazy, that's why they oracle their way up. I'm just one of those people that want a challenge. b:chuckle

Random_ - Dreamweaver

It depends on the degree and the situation-- if it's a boss that charm ticks are unavoidable/you'd have to have an above average cleric to avoid them, don't complain. If you know you're doing something stupid that will lead to charm ticks (aka, DDing too close to AoE bosses, aggroing mobs...) don't complain...

But sometimes it goes too far, and cleric's MP charm be damned. I was randomly running a '39 for some people on my 'sin the other day. I lost a large hunk of my TB quest charm (plat, just renamed/not trade-able) before we even got to Calcid. Why? Because the cleric downright failed. The first major charm ticking started on Farren. I tell the 6x cleric, before we start, to IH me a few times then follow me closer to Farren before setting up BB. Does he? No. I end up charm/pot/second wind tanking Farren with no heals because BB is not close enough to heal me. "Pull it back," he says-- yes, would he like a squad wipe with that? Eventually I pull it back, telling the others to quit attacking-- do they? No. Archer gets aggro and everyone starts to have to pot/charm to live. Does the cleric ever drop BB and adjust/IH the squad? Nope. I seriously have no clue how we didn't squad wipe then (well, at least the people outside BB).

Later in the same squad, I don't know what he was thinking, but, I get no heals whatsoever on the splody mobs. I almost died a few times, and my charm was ticking every cooldown. He stood there AoEing, then wondered why he kept getting aggro and almost dying from the multiple mobs he pulled. I wonder why...

In that case, that's just abuse of someone having an HP charm. My charm was the equivalent of a few million coin charm-- the cleric (who I don't even think was charmed) let it tick because of his own stupidity, when it was clearly avoidable. A cleric is there to heal-- the ones tanking the instance already have their own repair costs, do your job and don't be lazy about it/rely on their HP charm.

On the flip side, I've had completely unavoidable/my own stupidity/risks thing going on too (mostly on my 'sin-- not so much on my BM). Clearing the guards in '51 before the rest of the squad arrives, getting aggro of Fushma, DDing close to rank-- those things you shouldn't complain about, because you chose to DD too much, too close, or to solo tank/tank too many mobs on your own. The cleric didn't have a say in any of it. Also when a boss amps/does something else and a charm ticks, when the cleric is doing their job as best they can-- unavoidable. It's the ones caused by other's stupidity that makes sensible people complain.

Then again, there's always the un-sensible ones that always complain about every charm tick. Don't listen to them.

JamesJutsu - Dreamweaver

Its fracking...COSTLY...duh -.- fail questions -.-

Euphy - Dreamweaver

Okay - I had to stop on the third page because I got annoyed.
1) If you're healed after your charm ticks and you're upset: the cleric is going out of their way to prevent your precious coins from going to waste. So, sometimes its a split second too late. They're trying - are you? Did you use a potion or crab meat?
2) If you b tch at a cleric because your charm is plunging chances are he/she will stop trying.
3) Clerics use Guardian Charms too. Do you know how often my charm ticks in Frost runs because brainless tanks can't keep the argo from a pull? It's not hard, use Alpha Male or Roar before running in. But no - only clerics are responsible for other peoples health charms.
4) All classes have their costs, health charms are completely optional EVEN in PvP. For catapult tanks in Territory War, though, thats like the one case were its for a greater cause. If you equip a charm for your precious PvP don't make it a problem for your PvE squads. I need this for PvP, don't make me waste it? Seriously - not my problem.
5) I prefer charmless tanks. Very rarely do tanks need charms if their suited for the instance (carb meat, cele-pills, genie skills). Having them charmless gives me much more flexibility to protect the entire squad, debuff, and DD. If you need a charm to pull something or survive initial hits don't moan if a -50% health AoE makes it tick; not my fault. I'll always ensure my tanks survival and support my squad to my full capabilities this way. If I have to check every moment that you're not edging towards 50% this isn't the case. Clerics can do more than spam Ironheart Blessing on a tank.

So basically - I'm not going to listen. If you're on my friend list or just plain polite I'm probably doing the best I can to protect you and you know it. If not and you're moaning at me - count on it ticking.

Roseary - Sanctuary

I love my HP charm, being a cleric it's perfect. I don't complain when it ticks, I am acutally at a goal to get rid of it. Over a month and a half and I am almost down to 600k left(Platinum from TBQ). It has saved my life many times, and that's what it's for.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

I have a solid argument why MP charm is as vital as a HP charm.(only applies to some cases)

1. With our small HP pool, a HP charm would not be that helpful. I mean if you can take down 100% of my hp in 1 sec, it would take you 2 sec to kill me with charm on.

2. We have a skill called plume shell which converts damage taken into "mp damage". With our large mp pool, we can take advantage of it especially with a charm. Using our high mp cost spells, its like casting by sacrificing our effective hp.

Combine fact 1 and 2, and I'm sure you see why mp charm can be considered as hp charm.

Note that this only applies to physical damage and would most likely be true in certain situations like TW and PK. Also, note that clerics are "priority targets" in tw and pk, we cannot avoid it.

Kokki - Harshlands

I can't believe the numer of clerics in this thread, it's really OMG!

If my charm ticks once if i tank, i'll take it for granted, if it ticks twice i ask politely to keep heals on me. Loose it a third time and i'll charm tank he boss and kill you that instant. don't like it? go to a pve server where you will never need a charm for anything.

buh bye