Hp/Mp Charm Tics

Krisnda - Lost City

Ok, so heres my question:

Hp/Mp charms, whether bronze or platinum, are bought for the purpose of replenishing a persons Hp or Mp. People such as Clerics use them to keep skills such as BB/RB, or just spamming IH. Barbs and BM's use them so that they can Tank longer (if there is no cleric healing them, or if something went wrong in a squad) and not lose HP.

Getting to the point of this, why do people complain (especally HP charm users) about having their charm tic? The point of having a charm period is to use it. If you were going to buy a charm with the purpose of saving it, then why not just buy/make potions? Its much cheaper than buying charms, and you can use them whenever you want. Because all i see in squads are things such as "Cleric, dont let my charm tic" or "man BB is ticking the mess out of my charm". Why buy something you dont even want to use?

Note: not trying to flame charm users, i was just intrested in the logic behind this b:surrender

Baltonus - Heavens Tear

bcause charms are expensive, and some need them for tw/pk and good clerics aren't suppose to let your hp drop under 1/2

Krisnda - Lost City

Baltonus - Heavens Tear wrote: »

bcause charms are expensive, and some need them for tw/pk and good clerics aren't suppose to let your hp drop under 1/2

Then why not just buy pots to use, and before you do something important (frost, TW, etc.), you buy a charm then?

RedsRose - Lost City

Baltonus - Heavens Tear wrote: »

bcause charms are expensive, and some need them for tw/pk and good clerics aren't suppose to let your hp drop under 1/2

As a lvl 99 barb i KNOW you know that there are some situations in which the Cleric has NO control over a drop in HP. To say otherwise is...well...i'll leave it at that...


@ OP -

I agree. I know people who would rather use up their Genie fuel then allow their charm to tick. I do my best to prevent any and all charm ticks, HOWEVER!!! In all 101 levels, I have never had one person be aware of a clerics charm that ticks 5x more then any HP charm would.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

HOWEVER!!! In all 101 levels, I have never had one person be aware of a clerics charm that ticks 5x more then any HP charm would.

Gonna play devil's advocate a bit here. I'm not saying i agree with the following line of reasoning, but i'll state the logic behind it anyhow. HP charms are often worn by everyone (well every class type that is, not every player), and are there for the purpose of preventing death. MP charms will not save you from death, and to an extent have no greater purpose other then allowing a certain sort of laziness. There are many places where HP pots are not going to save your **** (especially since pot healing is over time, not instant). So people dont see MP charms the same way, they are less forced and more of a choice to be lazy instead of using MP pots & event MP pots, and thereby dont deserve the same consideration of prevention.

Not saying i agree, just explaining the logic i've heard.

axt57

Krisnda - Lost City wrote: »

Then why not just buy pots to use, and before you do something important (frost, TW, etc.), you buy a charm then?

...

Because the next day you will do a BH/FB/etc and your charm will needlessly tick?

Unavoidable charm ticks are not the problem - nothing can be done about that.

What makes me (and plenty others) rage is my HP dropping - usually slowly - and the cleric either DDing or just standing there. Some clerics also have the reaction time of a sloth.

RedsRose - Lost City

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Gonna play devil's advocate a bit here. I'm not saying i agree with the following line of reasoning, but i'll state the logic behind it anyhow. HP charms are often worn by everyone (well every class type that is, not every player), and are there for the purpose of preventing death. MP charms will not save you from death, and to an extent have no greater purpose other then allowing a certain sort of laziness. There are many places where HP pots are not going to save your **** (especially since pot healing is over time, not instant). So people dont see MP charms the same way, they are less forced and more of a choice to be lazy instead of using MP pots & event MP pots, and thereby dont deserve the same consideration of prevention.

Not saying i agree, just explaining the logic i've heard.

I completely see your reasoning. I too can play both sides. What you just described could be said the same of any tank as well. Use HP pots *shrugs*

However, the overall concept is the same. I have not worn a charm (either) in a while now and mostly (90%) heal tanks w/o a charm. I for one do not wear one bc all level 11 skills would cause a tick every 2-3 heals depending on what you use.

The main thing is that I agree with the OP in that a charm is a safe guard. You cannot expect it to never tick, that is what it is there for b:surrender

axt57 wrote: »

...

Because the next day you will do a BH/FB/etc and your charm will needlessly tick?

Unavoidable charm ticks are not the problem - nothing can be done about that.

What makes me (and plenty others) rage is my HP dropping - usually slowly - and the cleric either DDing or just standing there. Some clerics also have the reaction time of a sloth.

^ this is irritating

Krisnda - Lost City

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Gonna play devil's advocate a bit here. I'm not saying i agree with the following line of reasoning, but i'll state the logic behind it anyhow. HP charms are often worn by everyone (well every class type that is, not every player), and are there for the purpose of preventing death. MP charms will not save you from death, and to an extent have no greater purpose other then allowing a certain sort of laziness. There are many places where HP pots are not going to save your **** (especially since pot healing is over time, not instant). So people dont see MP charms the same way, they are less forced and more of a choice to be lazy instead of using MP pots & event MP pots, and thereby dont deserve the same consideration of prevention.

Not saying i agree, just explaining the logic i've heard.

Well if this is the case, then why do people complain when their charms tic? They should be happy that they didn't die (hp) or that they didn't run out of mana (mp). Its like theres no point in buying charms if people don't want to use them (not everyone, just in general).

Krisnda - Lost City

axt57 wrote: »

...

Because the next day you will do a BH/FB/etc and your charm will needlessly tick?

Unavoidable charm ticks are not the problem - nothing can be done about that.

What makes me (and plenty others) rage is my HP dropping - usually slowly - and the cleric either DDing or just standing there. Some clerics also have the reaction time of a sloth.

I'm sorry, but this is just dumb. The next day you can buy/make more pots, or better yet use the pots (like if you made hundreds of them) from yesterday. You dont "need" charms, there just there, like Rose said, as a safeguard. Clerics arn't always there for everything.

Searing - Dreamweaver

Problem is that you can't unequip a charm which is why you want it to last. So if i got a TW and get a Gold HP charm i want that charm to tick in TW and not in places where it doesn't need to.

Maybe i can even save it up for next week's TW, maybe same charm will serve me for 5-6 FC runs after that TW etc.
Sometimes clerics can't prevent a charm tick which is only natural...but sometimes clerics also notice a charm on someone and start to rely on that charm -> they start slacking because of it. That's not often the case, but it really is annoying when it happens.

axt57

Krisnda - Lost City wrote: »

I'm sorry, but this is just dumb. The next day you can buy/make more pots, or better yet use the pots (like if you made hundreds of them) from yesterday. You dont "need" charms, there just there, like Rose said, as a safeguard. Clerics arn't always there for everything.

You can't unequip a charm.

If there is a cleric in my squad and I'm at 60%, I expect a heal. Sadly in many instances this does not happen, or they heal right after a charm tick, which is really annoying.

Another good one is clerics too afraid of stealing agro. Good example on my alt - port into BH79 and get attacked by patrol archer while map loads. Lvl 9x Cleric just stands there, and waits for me to attack, after which my charm has already ticked once or twice.

****

Krisnda - Lost City

Searing - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Problem is that you can't unequip a charm which is why you want it to last. So if i got a TW and get a Gold HP charm i want that charm to tick in TW and not in places where it doesn't need to.

Maybe i can even save it up for next week's TW, maybe same charm will serve me for 5-6 FC runs after that TW etc.
Sometimes clerics can't prevent a charm tick which is only natural...but sometimes clerics also notice a charm on someone and start to rely on that charm -> they start slacking because of it. That's not often the case, but it really is annoying when it happens.

Now, i know i'm probily going to die for this b:surrender, but where does it say that Clerics arn't supposed to let your charm tick? Clerics heal, yes but that doesn't mean they have to make sure that your charm doesn't tick.

Searing - Dreamweaver

Krisnda - Lost City wrote: »

Now, i know i'm probily going to die for this b:surrender, but where does it say that Clerics arn't supposed to let your charm tick? Clerics heal, yes but that doesn't mean they have to make sure that your charm doesn't tick.

Look, there's different situations. If too many mobs get aggro'ed, several people died at boss etc. tanks will tick because the cleric will be busy. However, if tank ticks on a random FB79 boss for example then the cleric isn't doing his/her job.
The tank didn't buy his charm for wasting it on trivial things, nor is he supposed to pot himself on easy bosses with a cleric around. If ticking can easily be avoided then the cleric should not let someone tick. If they can't do that, they should go re-roll a wiz or something.

truekossy

Most of the better players aren't upset about regular charm ticking because it's something you can't always avoid.

What pisses people off is when the clerics are lazy and let charms tick on purpose or in times where it's easily avoidable. You have the HP charm equipped to save your life in certain situations, which is all fine and good... but when you get put into a situation that causes the charm to tick because the cleric was being lazy or stupid, that's what pisses people off. I've had times where I was tanking a boss on chars other than a BM or Barb and the cleric in squad would, instead of trying his or her best to actually keep me alive, go about spending more time DDing or standing around doing nothing than healing. Heck, there's been several times where I've had to rely entirely on my charm to tank a boss because the cleric didn't even bother trying to heal me. I don't have a charm on for stupidity like that to happen. I have my charm to keep me alive in situations where death would otherwise be unavoidable. Not for the cleric to be too lazy to try and keep me alive like they should.

MP charm ticks... honestly aren't something worth complaining about. You have incredibly cheap event MP food that can restore MP faster than pretty much anyone can use it. HP foods, on the other hand, restore HP over time AND aren't exactly able to heal you faster than you can take damage. If I'm in PvP and some wiz starts attacking me doing 2k-4k or so damage per hit (low damage, I know), HP foods aren't going to save me. A charm, on the other hand, will. Now take the same concept and apply it to something like a world boss or the like. Sure your charm may tick there, but it's helping you stay alive. Having your charm tick on some random boss in FB79 because your cleric is too busy DDing to pay attention to your HP and most of the time only heals you AFTER your charm ticked when they do heal.... that's not your charm saving your life. That's your cleric failing at their job.

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

Just think of it this way.

You have a charm to keep you alive if **** hits the fan. Well this case, the cleric gets lazy and let's your charm do most of the healing during your BH, and your charm dies.

Luckily, you killed the boss in time. While running to the next boss though one of your squadmate agro's a large group of mobs, you (the barb) roar and start tanking them all, you die because the cleric is trying to heal the person who originally agro'd real quick and rez anyone else who died.

*Squad wipes*

So since your charm was ticked unnecessarily, it wasn't there in an emergency because it was wasted when there wasn't an emergency.

*Edit* Basically, your charm is there for when you can't pot fast enough to save your life. But if it's ticking when it can easily be avoided, it'll be gone when you do need it.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

There was a big deal about this in the Classists thread a few days ago. EDIT: And it's freaking silly that I have to explain in so much detail otherwise a fail or butthurt cleric will misinterpret or twist what I'm trying to say because they're nervously twitching from experience with true complainers instead of opinions from a reasonable perspective.

For DDs:

If I'm not tanking and just profviding DD a HP charm is usually not required, and many times a cleric will not be quick enough, will not care or will be incompetent, and I'll always pot if I take aggro when there is other action taking place within an instance. I fully expect that if I'm charmed it will probably tick. It's a luxury if the cleric is attentive.

For Tanks:

If I'm tanking an instance, I fully expect my charm to tick here or there and that it's largely unavoidable. I'm paying the costs for repairs and my HP charm will likely tick to prevent the cleric's from being hit by a melee mob. What pisses me off is when a cleric starts letting my charm tick unnecessarily. There are those clerics afraid of heal aggro who are overly cautious and seem to like to see your charm tick before they start healing. Then there are the metal maging in-between heals at inappropriate times... these **** me off the most and generally have the worst attitude. If you tell them they shouldn't be DDing, they get pissy, if you complain about excessive charm ticks they often throw tantrums and either ragequit or threaten it. There are also the lazy healers who only throw a heal in every few seconds or just rely on one type of heal even though they should be healing with different methods... always using stream when they should be stacking irons, or throwing up BB at the most inappropriate times. There are also those that sadistically enjoy seeing people's charms tick as was mentioned in that other thread... anyway, they just bug me for being generally fail in that circumstance, straying from my point.

HP charms are sometimes necessary to tank an instance. They tick when the health of the user moves below 50%. A tank for anything significantly difficult SHOULD be charmed, and it's to be expected that it will tick occasionally. HP charm ticks can largely be prevented by a competent cleric. Preventing that HP charm from ticking will require no more or less of a clerics MP charm if they have one.

MP charms are largely unnecessary. They tick when a user's mana drops below 75%. They are primarily used by people who are just too lazy to keep potting or like to afk heal (which is fine with me). Keeping a MP charm from ticking is largely unavoidable. Most used pots, 4000mp recovery would be wasted if you tried to use them from keeping a MP charm from ticking, though free pots can be spammed to do so, it's kind of pointless, because the MP food is cheaper than an MP charm which is cheaper than using MP pots....

A competent cleric will lose no more of their MP charm trying to keep a tank's HP charm from ticking, so they should try their best to keep the health of the tank at 100%. And to the cleric that said that their job is to make sure the health of a person doesn't reach 0, there are a lot of bosses that will flat out kill a person if you don't keep a user as close to 100% as you can.

Personally, anytime I see my health dip below 75% I pot. I know many clerics. I know which ones I don't have to worry about potting, know whom are lazy, do not care or are just incompetent. I also know ones that pride themselves on trying to keep people's charms from ticking.

The tick of a HP charm is not the equivalent of a MP charm ticking, and there is no difference to me from hearing a cleric or a barb saying their MP charm is ticking, it's just silly and laughable. Of course an MP charm is going to tick.

truekossy

ElderSig - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Truth

What's sad is... something EXACTLY like this has happened to me before. My only regret is that it wasn't on a PvP server and that I didn't have lead at the time or I'd have booted the cleric and then PK'd him. And most of the squad agreed with me that the cleric was just plain pathetic too (the wiz and psy did a better job of the support/healing roles than the cleric did)

Thylee - Heavens Tear

I don't think that every time your charm ticks it's the result of a "lazy" Cleric. There are times, however, when I have to watch others in the squad at the same time and it might take a few seconds longer to hit the tank again. But I know for a fact that if I let the tank die then I'm next on the menu! Incompetence is a different ....skill. Any Cleric who goes into a "combat" situation as part of a team should know he has a specific role to play in the team. If he's chatting or multitasking or AFK (I've seen that happen more than once without even announcing it) then he shouldn't have chosen to be a cleric and shouldn't be invited to anything.

On a different point though. My complaint about the MP charm is that it ticks way too soon. I have the Xaio herbs with 5k mp and I can hit them when I have 25% left. Most of the time the charms tick when my MP would have restored on its own. (not to mention the herbs are cheaper than the charms)

Amaliee - Archosaur

ElderSig - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Just think of it this way.

You have a charm to keep you alive if **** hits the fan. Well this case, the cleric gets lazy and let's your charm do most of the healing during your BH, and your charm dies.
For a cleric, you have an mp charm that keeps yourself and others alive if the **** hits the fan by allowing you to heal. Well in a case where the barb gets greedy and demands that your mp charm tick far more than is necessary in order to keep his/her hp always above 50% at all costs, your mp charm might die

Luckily, you killed the boss in time. While running to the next boss though one of your squadmate agro's a large group of mobs, you (the barb) roar and start tanking them all, you die because the cleric is trying to heal the person who originally agro'd real quick and rez anyone else who died.
Luckily you kept the tank alive through the first boss, but in running to the next your squadmate agroes a large group of mobs and you (the cleric) no longer have the mp necessary in order to continually spam heal the entire squad (including both the squadmate who agroed and the tank who comes back to help).

*Squad wipes*
*Squad wipes*

So since your charm was ticked unnecessarily, it wasn't there in an emergency because it was wasted when there wasn't an emergency.
So since your mp charm was ticked unnecessarily, it wasn't there in an emergency because it was wasted when there wasn't an emergency.


*Edit* Basically, your charm is there for when you can't pot fast enough to save your life. But if it's ticking when it can easily be avoided, it'll be gone when you do need it.
Basically a cleric's mp charm is also there when you cannot pot fast enough to maintain the mana needed, or when the healing you need to do is too complicated and/or unexpected that to try to monitor your mana well enough to pot properly would likely lead to unnecessary death. When it's ticking where it can easily be avoided by a barb accepting 2-3 ticks of their own charm in amongst the several ticks of yours, it'll be gone when you do need it.

See it's this kind of logic that gets away from me. This example, and a lot of others, have posted instances where hp charms take precedent in the event of any charm loss and seem oblivious to the fact that of course the same logic can and should be applied to a cleric.

They keep you and others alive with their mana. Maintaining mana is not any less important than maintaining hp when this is occurring. No one is saying MP Charms > HP Charms but come on barbs, clerics are your BEST FRIENDS and they are the ONLY way you can tank properly. There needs to be some sort of balance here where you can each give and take from one another, neither in excess. And I think it would start by acknowledging that clerics have charm ticks as well, some required but some unnecessary when/if a tank demands more than they actually need.

((Just wanted to add that all of this could be fixed if we could simply take charms off/change what percentage they tick at))

MistaBwanden - Sanctuary

What's really annoying is when you're a cleric holding up BB, and your charm is ticking while nobody else's is.
Then when someone else's does, they start yelling at you.
-.-

Krisnda - Lost City

Ok, let me just make one thing clear, the point of making this is to get to the point of why people complain when either charms tick, this is not a thread talking about "how lazy clerics are", or "how uptight barbs are". Lets try to keep it at that please.

axt57

Krisnda - Lost City wrote: »

Ok, let me just make one thing clear, the point of making this is to get to the point of why people complain when either charms tick, this is not a thread talking about "how lazy clerics are", or "how uptight barbs are". Lets try to keep it at that please.

Well ok, lets see you buy a plat HP charm for 2m, equip for future TWs, then next day have it tick 20 times in a BH/FB/etc needlessly while your squad cleric picks their nose.

If you don't complain or feel annoyed after that, then good for you.

Krisnda - Lost City

axt57 wrote: »

Well ok, lets see you buy a plat HP charm for 2m, equip for future TWs, then next day have it tick 20 times in a BH/FB/etc needlessly while your squad cleric picks their nose.

If you don't complain or feel annoyed after that, then good for you.

1. I dont use charms, i barely use potions for that matter.
2. Like i said before, Clerics are not "charm de-tickers"
3. If you want to buy a 2m charm, be prepard to have it tick, thats why you bought it for.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

axt57 wrote: »

Well ok, lets see you buy a plat HP charm for 2m, equip for future TWs, then next day have it tick 20 times in a BH/FB/etc needlessly while your squad cleric picks their nose.

If you don't complain or feel annoyed after that, then good for you.

How do you pick your nose in game? b:pleased

truekossy

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/19240 > MP charms.

1: They're cheaper.
2: They only "tick" when you want them to.
3: They restore more MP than you ca use in their cooldown time.

The only cons are they use 1 space in inventory and you can't just go AFK and have them restore your MP.




Find an equivalent for HP charms and then we can talk about MP charms vs HP charms in importance. There's a reason why LA players where helms instead of arcane hats, after all.

Krisnda - Lost City

truekossy wrote: »

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/19240 > MP charms.

1: They're cheaper.
2: They only "tick" when you want them to.
3: They restore more MP than you ca use in their cooldown time.

The only cons are they use 1 space in inventory and you can't just go AFK and have them restore your MP.




Find an equivalent for HP charms and then we can talk about MP charms vs HP charms in importance. There's a reason why LA players where helms instead of arcane hats, after all.

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/19236

Why not just use these for HP?

Michael_Dark - Lost City

MistaBwanden - Sanctuary wrote: »

What's really annoying is when you're a cleric holding up BB, and your charm is ticking while nobody else's is.
Then when someone else's does, they start yelling at you.
-.-

You don't need a charm to keep BB up.

A cleric complaining about their MP charm ticking is like them complaining that they're spamming MP pots. Kinda ridiculous.

If a tank has to spam HP pots while tanking with a cleric, there is something obviously going wrong.

If a cleric has to spam HP pots in an instance, there is something obviously going wrong.

That's about as simple as I can boil it down to.

axt57

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

How do you pick your nose in game? b:pleased

New secret boutique item.
9001 gold to black market vendor.
No questions asked.

Krisnda - Lost City wrote: »

1. I dont use charms, i barely use potions for that matter.
2. Like i said before, Clerics are not "charm de-tickers"
3. If you want to buy a 2m charm, be prepard to have it tick, thats why you bought it for.

Oh you don't use charms. Everything is explained.

Once you start using charms, and facedesk enough times at needless charm ticks to deform your face, then come back and talk about the issue.

Krisnda - Lost City

axt57 wrote: »

New secret boutique item.
9001 gold to black market vendor.
No questions asked.



Oh you don't use charms. Everything is explained.

Once you start using charms, and facedesk enough times at needless charm ticks to deform your face, then come back and talk about the issue.

Really, was that necessary? I know enough about charms to talk about an issue such as this.

axt57

Krisnda - Lost City wrote: »

Really, was that necessary? I know enough about charms to talk about an issue such as this.

How can you know enough about charms if you just stated you don't use them?

Xiiia - Heavens Tear

dont like charm tic. DONT BUY IT..
IF you die, you die.
IF you want to try to prevent your death. use hp pot / charms.

Too expensive..dont use it
you want everything free..no on complain go get your free thing.

IF you want to play a free game and want it to be easy, there is a very simple way

go play MAPLEsTOry..