Need confirmation on CH:S
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Giodia - Heavens Tear
Posts: 475 Arc User
I'm in LVL 70s range.
My current gear are just average, leaning towards DEX and vit and also with a -0.05 interval brace.
I'm debating whether I should get a CH:S (I have Unicorn bow) or Use Windcatcher (got it at 50k) and get Broadland or use Wind and the clouds (+3 with 2 beautiful) till 90s and get a lvl 95 bow.
The advantages of CH:S would be the following:
1. It's a fast bow (-0.05 Interval)
2. Gloom proc would mean a 25% increase in damage
3. Gloom procs on Mana and not on Pdef (in case of Broadland)
I would probably take my time to Lvl up in the 80s range, so in my case, the CH:S would be a better choice?
I will avoid using any xbows even if their high-end damage is higher, but at a slower speed (lotsa -interval gear needed to make up the loss of speed).
Please advise.
My current gear are just average, leaning towards DEX and vit and also with a -0.05 interval brace.
I'm debating whether I should get a CH:S (I have Unicorn bow) or Use Windcatcher (got it at 50k) and get Broadland or use Wind and the clouds (+3 with 2 beautiful) till 90s and get a lvl 95 bow.
The advantages of CH:S would be the following:
1. It's a fast bow (-0.05 Interval)
2. Gloom proc would mean a 25% increase in damage
3. Gloom procs on Mana and not on Pdef (in case of Broadland)
I would probably take my time to Lvl up in the 80s range, so in my case, the CH:S would be a better choice?
I will avoid using any xbows even if their high-end damage is higher, but at a slower speed (lotsa -interval gear needed to make up the loss of speed).
Please advise.
Post edited by Giodia - Heavens Tear on
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Comments
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click here. Next time, try clicking the sticky thread that says, "Useful Archer Links". There's a reason it's there.0
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Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »I'm in LVL 70s range.
My current gear are just average, leaning towards DEX and vit and also with a -0.05 interval brace.
I'm debating whether I should get a CH:S (I have Unicorn bow) or Use Windcatcher (got it at 50k) and get Broadland or use Wind and the clouds (+3 with 2 beautiful) till 90s and get a lvl 95 bow.
The advantages of CH:S would be the following:
1. It's a fast bow (-0.05 Interval)
2. Gloom proc would mean a 25% increase in damage
3. Gloom procs on Mana and not on Pdef (in case of Broadland)
I would probably take my time to Lvl up in the 80s range, so in my case, the CH:S would be a better choice?
I will avoid using any xbows even if their high-end damage is higher, but at a slower speed (lotsa -interval gear needed to make up the loss of speed).
Please advise.
See the following:
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=359332
Results:
5% chance of a 10 second proc which consumes 5% MP for an increase of 100% weapon damage.0 -
You can compromise between Crimson Horn: Soulsmasher and Broad Land by getting Vast Land. The DPS and DPH are between the two, and the price is about the same as CH:S. Well, at least on HT, they are about the same.
One thing to note is that with Vast Land (and Broad Land), you can resell the bow. Thus, I usually do not recommend CH:S anymore.0 -
Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »See the following:
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=359332
Results:
5% chance of a 10 second proc which consumes 5% MP for an increase of 100% weapon damage.
So would that indicate the CH:S is more worth while since it adds 100% weapon damage on top of the initial damage value?
I'm under the assumption that this is indicated.0 -
Shao_on_Fire - Heavens Tear wrote: »click here. Next time, try clicking the sticky thread that says, "Useful Archer Links". There's a reason it's there.
In case you do not know, I have seen all the threads that involves CH:S and how often it procs is about 5% of the time as any other bows / xbow with effects.
And seriously, do you have to use that condescending attitude here? Quite frankly, you do not have to respond anything at all if you do not feel like it.
What I wish to know is would this bow suit the pace that I am going after going through the weapon comparison guide. Numbers and reality may not be what you expect.
There are numerous people that has suggested the bow and maintain it's serviceable till 95 and I seriously wish to know if it's worth building and refining it Since it's soul bound.
Annor's guide has been said to be outdated before the weapons that could have gotten from it.
Annor's guide stopped at windcatcher being the last of the weapon chain.
In short, I read the stickies before voicing out by concerns on this investment. So, not everyone is a newbie and simply asking without reading or even searching.
Take a look at this search result: http://www.google.com.sg/search?hl=en&rlz=1C1CHMA_en-GBSG327SG327&q=+site:pwi-forum.perfectworld.com+Crimson+Horn:+Soulsmasher&ei=nUxWS-uROpWXkQXsxO3iBA&sa=X&oi=forum_cluster&resnum=1&ct=more-results&ved=0CA0QrQIwAA0 -
In short, now with the wide variety of bows available CH:S may not be the best choice.
Like Elena suggested, the Vast Land bow is comparable and it is tradeable. This means you can sell it and make part of the cost back to purchase a 9x bow.
Elena knows the pricing on HT better than I do so I would trust her judgement in that Vast Land is around the same cost as CH:S.
If you really are persistent on the bow then make it. I can tell you that from experience it is a beautiful bow but I have not used either a Vast Land nor a Broad Land.
Just remember, once you put it on your hands, you lost all that coin used to make the bow and you have lost a potential 7-10m for future upgrades in weapons.0 -
CH:S is a decent weapon yes, but being bound makes it very inflexible. I would suggest getting a TT80 crossbow (Chained Jail or Flashfire for later conversion into Blinding Radiance as a cheaper alternative). CH:S would just result in you spending more money in the 9x levels starting over getting a new weapon. Vast Land/Broadland are viable options, but those come at 85, so it's up to you if you want to wait the levels.0
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Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »So would that indicate the CH:S is more worth while since it adds 100% weapon damage on top of the initial damage value?
I'm under the assumption that this is indicated.
It would depend on the usage. For PvE grinding, you cannot depend on it triggering. Also, the 5% MP consumption was somewhat annoying. (This is from experience, by the way.)
For taking down bosses, the Gloom is nice.
Also, just in case you did not read through the entire thread by Lady Legerity, +100% weapon damage does not mean double-damage.0 -
Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »In short, now with the wide variety of bows available CH:S may not be the best choice.
Like Elena suggested, the Vast Land bow is comparable and it is tradeable. This means you can sell it and make part of the cost back to purchase a 9x bow.
Elena knows the pricing on HT better than I do so I would trust her judgement in that Vast Land is around the same cost as CH:S.
If you really are persistent on the bow then make it. I can tell you that from experience it is a beautiful bow but I have not used either a Vast Land nor a Broad Land.
Just remember, once you put it on your hands, you lost all that coin used to make the bow and you have lost a potential 7-10m for future upgrades in weapons.
I'm not really keen on spending that much money 7.7 mil (as of yesterday) on CH:S .
I have done some thinking that though Vastland is slightly higher in min and max damage, but it does not comes with -interval or any extra damage.
The dex values and pattk modifier will not make up for the loss of gloom bonus damage and -interval.
Am I correct to say, that only with - 0.10 interval gear will make up the lost of dps by vastland?AngleSnipe - Heavens Tear wrote: »CH:S is a decent weapon yes, but being bound makes it very inflexible. I would suggest getting a TT80 crossbow (Chained Jail or Flashfire for later conversion into Blinding Radiance as a cheaper alternative). CH:S would just result in you spending more money in the 9x levels starting over getting a new weapon. Vast Land/Broadland are viable options, but those come at 85, so it's up to you if you want to wait the levels.
I do not mind waiting if Vastland is really as comparable to CH:S. But 10 more levels up and I will need to change another weapon.Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »It would depend on the usage. For PvE grinding, you cannot depend on it triggering. Also, the 5% MP consumption was somewhat annoying. (This is from experience, by the way.)
For taking down bosses, the Gloom is nice.
Also, just in case you did not read through the entire thread by Lady Legerity, +100% weapon damage does not mean double-damage.
From what I understand, it will only add estimated 1.1 k (100% weapon damage) to the bow. So if you are doing 2k damage, you will be doing 3k normal shots up to 10 secs.
It will add that damage to the normal shots.
Imo, I think CH:S is worth it's price tag till LVL 95, which indicates 15 levels x time (used to lvl up to 95).
Even though the Bow proc effect may not be triggering often, but it has a -interval mod that will allow it to shoot faster.
It sux that we cannot re-sell it, but comparing 10 lvls for vastland and 15 levels for CH:S, I will take the latter.
Thank you for all you input.0 -
Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »I'm not really keen on spending that much money 7.7 mil (as of yesterday) on CH:S .
I have done some thinking that though Vastland is slightly higher in min and max damage, but it does not comes with -interval or any extra damage.
The dex values and pattk modifier will not make up for the loss of gloom bonus damage and -interval.
Am I correct to say, that only with - 0.10 interval gear will make up the lost of dps by vastland?
☆Crimson Horn: Soulsmasher +5 - (TT90 Build / Blood Moon Build)
Physical Atk.: 4797-7813 / 4774-7775
Critical Hit: 25% / 25%
Attack rate: 0.69 /sec / 0.74
Avg DPH: 6305.00 / 6274.50
Avg DPS: 4350.45 / 4643.13
Extra: Gloom Proc
☆Vast Land +5 - (TT90 Build / Blood Moon Build)
Physical Atk.: 5254-8327 / 5229-8287
Critical Hit: 25% / 25%
Attack rate: 0.67 /sec / 0.71
Avg DPH: 6790.500 / 6758.00
Avg DPS: 4549.635 / 4798.18
Taken from: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=456402
As you can see, without gloom, VL has a higher DPS than CH:S with equivalent gear. If you're doing a comparison between the two, you should not favor any weapon to have more -interval than the other. These values have been normalised which has dropped its dependancy on -interval meaning 4798.18dps can be compared directly to 4643.13dps.
For the average CH:S (around +5) wielder, the gloom proc will average around +1.4k damage to base physical for 10 seconds. If you want to calculate the average then you need to fire 20shots before a trigger occurs statistically speaking. Gloom procs for 10s which equates to roughly 7.5shots in that period. 20/7.5 = 2 2/3
This means that if we were to adjust the average dps with gloom procs it will become 1400/2.67 = ~ 520 average damage increase. This becomes ~ 5300-8300 with a rate of 0.74.
aDPS then becomes ~ 6300 with 25% critical using the blood moon build.
These values are rather rough so I will give that 6300 an uncertainty of around 500 damage. This is to just illustrate the point so don't take the figures as 100% accurate.
As you now see, it becomes CH:S @ 5.8k dps (with uncertainty which is vague) vs VL @ 4.8k dps.
This is actually wrong because I found out Elena did not factor in the 25% crit. Therefore for a fairer comparison we need to either multiply the VL by crit% or divide the CH:S w/ gloom by 1.25.
Either way:
~ 5300-8300 with a rate of 0.74 becomes 5032 which is more realistic. The error then can be viewed as smaller which I postulate to be around 100damage, depending on the weapon damage the wielder of CH:S has.
This then becomes CH:S @ 5k dps vs VL @ 4.8k dps.
Not as "superior" as I previously stated due to my silly assumption that Elena factored in crit % into dps.I do not mind waiting if Vastland is really as comparable to CH:S. But 10 more levels up and I will need to change another weapon.
On average with gloom CH:S will be far superior than VL imo.
On average with gloom, CH:S will be slightly ahead of VL in adps....
Imo, I think CH:S is worth it's price tag till LVL 95, which indicates 15 levels x time (used to lvl up to 95).
Even though the Bow proc effect may not be triggering often, but it has a -interval mod that will allow it to shoot faster.
It sux that we cannot re-sell it, but comparing 10 lvls for vastland and 15 levels for CH:S, I will take the latter.
Thank you for all you input.
Again, the reason people are hesitant is the cost of CH:S. If you don't mind the 15mil cost (to refine aswell) on this bow to carry you to 95 then I recommend this bow.
edit: see the green part.0 -
Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »Am I correct to say, that only with - 0.10 interval gear will make up the lost of dps by vastland?
Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you are asking here due to phrasing, so I will not answer with a simple "Yes" or "No".
Ignoring Gloom, Vast Land has a higher DPS and DPH than Crimson Horn: Soulsmasher at +5 refinement w/ 2 Flawless Shards. It is true that CH:S is faster, but the base damage of Vast Land is greater by a significant margin, enough to so that it still outdamages the faster CH:S.
Perhaps if you refine CH:S to an extreme level and put in high grade shards, then it will outdamage Vast Land. But I am assuming you will not do that.
Taking into account Gloom, well, it triggers 5% of the time. That's not something you can really depend upon, and in fact I found it somewhat annoying when grinding, as it consumed MP.
EDIT: Beaten by Lady Legerity.0 -
Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »☆Crimson Horn: Soulsmasher +5 - (TT90 Build / Blood Moon Build)
Physical Atk.: 4797-7813 / 4774-7775
Critical Hit: 25% / 25%
Attack rate: 0.69 /sec / 0.74
Avg DPH: 6305.00 / 6274.50
Avg DPS: 4350.45 / 4643.13
Extra: Gloom Proc
☆Vast Land +5 - (TT90 Build / Blood Moon Build)
Physical Atk.: 5254-8327 / 5229-8287
Critical Hit: 25% / 25%
Attack rate: 0.67 /sec / 0.71
Avg DPH: 6790.500 / 6758.00
Avg DPS: 4549.635 / 4798.18
Taken from: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=456402
As you can see, without gloom, VL has a higher DPS than CH:S with equivalent gear. If you're doing a comparison between the two, you should not favor any weapon to have more -interval than the other. These values have been normalised which has dropped its dependancy on -interval meaning 4798.18dps can be compared directly to 4643.13dps.
For the average CH:S (around +5) wielder, the gloom proc will average around +1.4k damage to base physical for 10 seconds. If you want to calculate the average then you need to fire 20shots before a trigger occurs statistically speaking. Gloom procs for 10s which equates to roughly 7.5shots in that period. 20/7.5 = 2 2/3
This means that if we were to adjust the average dps with gloom procs it will become 1400/2.67 = ~ 520 average damage increase. This becomes ~ 5300-8300 with a rate of 0.74.
aDPS then becomes ~ 6300 with 25% critical using the blood moon build.
These values are rather rough so I will give that 6300 an uncertainty of around 500 damage. This is to just illustrate the point so don't take the figures as 100% accurate.
As you now see, it becomes CH:S @ 5.8k dps (with uncertainty which is vague) vs VL @ 4.8k dps.
On average with gloom CH:S will be far superior than VL imo.
Again, the reason people are hesitant is the cost of CH:S. If you don't mind the 15mil cost (to refine aswell) on this bow to carry you to 95 then I recommend this bow.
Thank you Lady Legerity for the calculations that has lead me to the conclusion.
Many thanks again.Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you are asking here due to phrasing, so I will not answer with a simple "Yes" or "No".
Ignoring Gloom, Vast Land has a higher DPS and DPH than Crimson Horn: Soulsmasher at +5 refinement w/ 2 Flawless Shards. It is true that CH:S is faster, but the base damage of Vast Land is greater by a significant margin, enough to so that it still outdamages the faster CH:S.
Perhaps if you refine CH:S to an extreme level and put in high grade shards, then it will outdamage Vast Land. But I am assuming you will not do that.
Taking into account Gloom, well, it triggers 5% of the time. That's not something you can really depend upon, and in fact I found it somewhat annoying when grinding, as it consumed MP.
EDIT: Beaten by Lady Legerity.
Hi Lady Elenacostel, I will not refine it above +5, but will put in good shards (above flawless) as this bow will be used for quite some time and kept afterwards.
Now (at my level range) when facing mobs with 'increase defence' and their likes, I could just double spark or (stun shot first) and kill them off with a knockback (at 33 mana; give or take) inbetween.
I could grind efficiently with a mana recovery arcane hat. I'm not sure how it will be in the 80s yet, perhaps you can enlighten me on that area and beyond.0 -
Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »...
Now (at my level range) when facing mobs with 'increase defence' and their likes, I could just double spark or (stun shot first) and kill them off with a knockback (at 33 mana; give or take) inbetween.
I could grind efficiently with a mana recovery arcane hat. I'm not sure how it will be in the 80s yet, perhaps you can enlighten me on that area and beyond.
With a CH:S+7 double flawless garnet I was able to kill almost everything I was required to do with nothing except normal shots. I was actually grinding on 0 mana for many many levels. In fact, a few people ran a joke within my faction about everytime they squaded with me I would have no blue bar. "Why does L need mana anyway?"
I'm not sure how much of a difference from +5 to +7 makes in terms of PvE but I can assure you, you will probably only be using KB or Frost, rarely both. With Inc Def and Inc movement mobs these can easily be solved by single spark auto fire. With Inc Life, I believe an advanced spark is necessary. This is how my 80s went without much if not any reliance on mana.0 -
Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »With a CH:S+7 double flawless garnet I was able to kill almost everything I was required to do with nothing except normal shots. I was actually grinding on 0 mana for many many levels. In fact, a few people ran a joke within my faction about everytime they squaded with me I would have no blue bar. "Why does L need mana anyway?"
I'm not sure how much of a difference from +5 to +7 makes in terms of PvE but I can assure you, you will probably only be using KB or Frost, rarely both. With Inc Def and Inc movement mobs these can easily be solved by single spark auto fire. With Inc Life, I believe an advanced spark is necessary. This is how my 80s went without much if not any reliance on mana.
Yes, this is true.
I grinded on vampire minions with normal shots + knockback. A Barb friend needed help on it on questing, so I obliged. He was surprised at how effortlessly and short duration that I took to kill 65 and above for those, without resting (except to fly out of the 'fog' and back into the bright area, near the hills)0 -
I picked up an error, Giodia.
Please see the red and green parts on what went wrong and my adjustment in post 11.0 -
Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »I picked up an error, Giodia.
Please see the red and green parts on what went wrong and my adjustment in post 11.
Many thanks Lady Legerityb:cute0 -
I had CH:S at +4 with 2 Flawless Garnets. It worked very well, and I only had to use 1 Knockback within my attack rotation, or no skills at all. This is without Gloom Triggering.
If I had a choice, I would have waited until 85 and acquired Vast Land and used that until 95 (I think Broad Land is fugly). Seeing as how a Vast Land is superior to a non-Gloom CH:S, it would have been just as easy to use.
You are entitled to your own opinion, of course. I just do not like depending on Gloom, and since Vast Land can be resold, I think CH:S is not worth the investment. If it was not bound, oh yeah, definitely get it.0 -
Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »I had CH:S at +4 with 2 Flawless Garnets. It worked very well, and I only had to use 1 Knockback within my attack rotation, or no skills at all. This is without Gloom Triggering.
If I had a choice, I would have waited until 85 and acquired Vast Land and used that until 95 (I think Broad Land is fugly). Seeing as how a Vast Land is superior to a non-Gloom CH:S, it would have been just as easy to use.
You are entitled to your own opinion, of course. I just do not like depending on Gloom, and since Vast Land can be resold, I think CH:S is not worth the investment. If it was not bound, oh yeah, definitely get it.
Oh Lady Elenacostel, why must you sway my decision again ? b:cry
Actually, I'm not depending on the gloom proc, it's just the icing on the cake. I'm looking at the -interval that I'm used to.
I like fast shooting weapons, of coz, I need to watch aggro since chances of criting + aggro buildup is also faster.
If Vastland has a -interval, trust me...I will buy it even if it cost more than CH:S. b:chuckle0 -
Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »Oh Lady Elenacostel, why must you sway my decision again ? b:cry
Actually, I'm not depending on the gloom proc, it's just the icing on the cake. I'm looking at the -interval that I'm used to.
I like fast shooting weapons, of coz, I need to watch aggro since chances of criting + aggro buildup is also faster.
If Vastland has a -interval, trust me...I will buy it even if it cost more than CH:S. b:chuckle
I have the same undecisive problem as well bt for me its more between Broadland or CH...
BL is expensive and harder to attain seeing as the chances of getting it from anni pack is small... unlike CH where you can farm the TT mat and trade in tokens for chips to get the gold mats..In RT a FC sign cost around 40 mil whereelse I think 10 mil could get me a CH
Not considerin the ability to resell BL... issit superior enough compared to CH for the extra cost?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
b:dirty0 -
RainZ - Raging Tide wrote: »I have the same undecisive problem as well bt for me its more between Broadland or CH...
BL is expensive and harder to attain seeing as the chances of getting it from anni pack is small... unlike CH where you can farm the TT mat and trade in tokens for chips to get the gold mats..In RT a FC sign cost around 40 mil whereelse I think 10 mil could get me a CH
Not considerin the ability to resell BL... issit superior enough compared to CH for the extra cost?
I think the time has come.
I got myself a CH:S (with 2 flawless, +3) for 6.5 Mil on HT last night.
I have been monitoring that bow for 2 days and the priced dropped lower at each end of auction cycle. So when I saw it at 7 mil, i waited till the cycle ends at 8 minutes.
True enough, the seller posted it at 6.5 mil. Needless to say, I grabbed it with auction time of 23:50 minutes left. Ok, that's a bit wicked..I know...b:sad
I think the prices are still going to drop lower.0 -
Thank you for all the discussion. I've been wondering myself what I should get during 80s b:cute0
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I made a CH:S for myself at lvl 80.. was the best bow I ever used right up until lvl 85 when I had a Vast Land drop in my lap. Playing with the PWi calculator I quickly saw that the Vast Land also outperfromed a TT90 Dragonbow which I had purchased at lvl 83. I unbound the CH:S and sold the TT90 Dragonbow and never looked back. That is until yesterday when I dinged 95 and was finally able to equip my HS.
While I loved the CH:S at the time it ended up being a huge waste of coins to only use for 5 lvls. My advise would be to use a Unicorn/TT70 Xbow/W&C until 85 and get a Vast Land to use until Lunar/TT99. Broadland is a hard hitting bow but not worth the loss of pdef imo.0
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