Are veno's really the cheapest class?

Lenn_ - Sanctuary

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Everyone started with nothing. Keep that in mind.

And no, no seed money is required to start.

did you read that entirely? last i checked you need money to make an investment; unless you're 'investing' time into farming.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

/NiKi - Lost City wrote: »

go farm herbs,wont cost u any coins
and grind on poison mobs to have same repair bill as veno b:bye

with bm and barb or ea too on posion mobs? that suicide. only cleric can do that but when i see the cleric mana eating rate... hm...

ok ur advice i must gather 25+20 grass for 5 potion what have 10min mana/hp regen(less than 1h the 5 potion) ofc until this i grind more on veno instead harvesting herbs b:cute

Damewort - Sanctuary

Veno is cheapest class only if you are fine with minimum. Opposite to other classes, veno can play well even with "ok" gears. Others mostly needs to get as good gears as they can afford to play well. Veno has less pot costs, cause of hp/mp recovering skills. So, yes, veno's min requirements are lower and cheaper.

But....

If you want to get the most out of veno, then it is one of most costly classes. It needs just as good gears as any other class + herc (cause veno sucks in pve without herc*sarcasm*)/nix (cause veno sucks in pvp without nix*sarcasm*) + pet food. If veno gets charm, then costs increases. If you dont want to slow down and bother healer all the time, add pot costs too... I once checked that fast FC run burned me ~40-50 lvl80 mp pots. In one day I dropped from 70 pots to 5 from 1 FC and 1 TT.

Easy money earning? Same squad running TTs earns more than veno soloing them. Grinding? I want to know how much bm/wizard/archer earns from grinding in Valley of the Scarred. With almost no costs and with nix grind I earn only 250k in hour there and only nobody else grinds on same mobs.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

Damewort - Sanctuary wrote: »

? Same squad running TTs earns more than veno soloing them. Grinding? I want to know how much bm/wizard/archer earns from grinding in Valley of the Scarred. With almost no costs and with nix grind I earn only 250k in hour there and only nobody else grinds on same mobs.

High level BMs/Archers can make 400k-500k just from grinding. Clerics can make close to that, if they pick the correct mobs to solo grind on. There are several posts with BMs, Archers and clerics using those numbers as to how much they make per hour just from coin and drops.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I think I've said this to you before, if not I've definitely said it on this board before. If someone isn't willing to goto town and lose the exp, they're attending only for an easy way to profit off of others at no risk to themselves. If that's the persons mentality, they're not worth the "work" of targeting and pressing the revive button. Instead they deserve to either sit there, or buy themselves GA's to save that precious exp.[/qoute]You want to buy the GA this happened to me several time doing Wyvern with 3 Venos in party all with C-Mags.

Both. So do Barbarians, Wizards, Archers, BM's, Psychics and Assassins. Everyone contributes to winning a fight. Healing is just another form of contribution.

They do to a certian extent but that is all who removes poison off you and buffs you as well if you been spiked new word for you losing half of you health in 1 sec.There isn't a class that can heal for that unlike Clerics and do you want us to do it with lvl 5 skill.Brael you have never played Cleric so you don't really have no idea what the costs are.Venos don't need all their skills lvled as compared to a Cleric.It has been said over thousand times Clerics are expensive to play one but you have no idea.

On the subject of blame though, one thing the community in this game does is gives DD's far too much slack. They should be held to a collectively higher standard. You say you need a max heal skill otherwise you'll get the blame if you wipe? I say that should be flipped around, if a DD didn't max out all of their skills and give it their all to get the mob dead as fast as it absolutely positively can be killed, that DD deserves blame... whether or not you win the fight. If you win, they wasted your time, repair fees, and charm to save themselves some coin. If you lose, it's their fault for letting the mob live long enough to have the opportunity to kill you. DD's should be blamed when something they do is hindering the squad rather than the generic "everything is the healers fault" blame.

As for potions, see the above paragraph. Myriad is instant cast, it increases kill speed, it should be used. It also requires potions to use due to the insane mana cost (a veno using myriad enough will surpass a cleric in mana used per minute... after taking our mana regen skills into account).



Well, I covered this above, and in my last post as well but... that depends on your definition of need. Mine is that if it's a skill that increases my squads kill speed at all (directly or indirectly... to an extent defense adds damage to you as well since you do 0 damage when you're dead), I need it. Oh, and all of my skills aren't maxed either... not everything is sage. Infact, unless you do a bunch of grinding and then dying or giving a genie your exp, you need to be level 101 before you've earned enough spirit to max everything (sage or demon max).



I've already addressed the anti veno points in his post, I happen to agree some of with them too. Legendary pets aren't expensive in the grand scheme of things (infact, they're downright cheap for the benefit they provide), pet food is cheap.

His cleric points however fail, gold MP charms aren't and have never been the cheapest source of MP even when taking the posting date (pre anni pack) into account, it wasn't pre jolly, and it wasn't pre apothecary. Clerics can also grind with low to no repair fees, ae's don't add to weapon repair, and do poison mobs add to repair when you're hit by them? Petalis, spiders, etc won't even melee... it's just chain cast every 5 seconds (considerably slower than melee hits in any event).

We have repair cost to and and this doesn't include anni packs and his fact aren't wrong as a gold charm can last 2 days or maybe 1.Then there is pots how many do you think we go through with those say when using blue/red bubble .I would say it seems like you are better because you didn't get help from clerics going through the game maybe that is because of being impatient.

Clerics get request to revive some half way across the map or or pm or even for buffs.I don't think you really know this class at all and I would say your math might off about skill costs.I have been told by and it is said in guides that Cleric is the most expensive class to play.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Clerics get request to revive some half way across the map or or pm or even for buffs.I don't think you really know this class at all and I would say your math might off about skill costs.I have been told by and it is said in guides that Cleric is the most expensive class to play.

Here is the thing, Clerics maybe the most expensive class to play bad. If you play the class right, they are not that expensive (coin wise). I will grant to the clerics, that they may be the class that "wastes" the most time doing things that do not directly benefit them, like flying accross the map to go rez someone.

The money making potential for a cleric is the highest of any class, since a cleric can solo AOE grind on poison mobs virtualy for free, and they are in high demand for TT runs, where, in general, they get second picks, so they have a good chance to get a good mat to sell/use. On top of that, they are also in high demend for RBs, Warsong, Frost, and pretty much any instance. They can make good money alone or in a party, and finding a party is much easier for a Cleric than for any other class.

Although Barbs get first choice in TT runs (usualy), their ability to really solo grind is somewhat limited, however, due to their high demand, it is not like they hurt financialy either.

Brael - Dreamweaver

Damewort - Sanctuary wrote: »

Veno is cheapest class only if you are fine with minimum.

This is dead on right. Our minimum is 500 coin for tame pet, and what heal pet costs to train... maybe Venomous Scarab too. No one, of any class plays with the minimum though.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

High level BMs/Archers can make 400k-500k just from grinding. Clerics can make close to that, if they pick the correct mobs to solo grind on. There are several posts with BMs, Archers and clerics using those numbers as to how much they make per hour just from coin and drops.

I average 450k/hour grinding, that's my profit not gross. This just disproves the myth that venos grind more coin (or proves I suck, one of the two).

Lenn_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

did you read that entirely? last i checked you need money to make an investment; unless you're 'investing' time into farming.

Ok, fine you got me. Go start in City of the Lost, you're going to need 2000 coin to buy a pickaxe and 5 minutes to run to a couple of mats and back to start. If you want to classify that as seed money I guess you win.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

You want to buy the GA this happened to me several time doing Wyvern with 3 Venos in party all with C-Mags.

Why not? I've done it before, I've given clerics res scrolls too. Infact, before I discovered how easy it is to make money in this game, I had something like 405k, the cleric in my squad had no scrolls, I went and bought him a few, no coin left for me (as in, I couldn't afford repairs) but whatever, that's the way it goes. If a squad expects a cleric to goto town/resurrect they should be willing to cover that cost. If they're not, they should be perfectly happy with going to town themselves.

They do to a certian extent but that is all who removes poison off you

Triple spark and summers sprint usually. I'm typically faster at curing myself than the cleric is at curing me since they're watching six people, I'm only watching one. The exception to this is fast recasts.

and buffs you

Barbarians, BM's, Archers, and Clerics (haven't been in squads with the other two yet).

as well if you been spiked new word for you losing half of you health in 1 sec.

Clerics usually. One of their jobs is to try and keep me and everyone else alive if something happens. You seem to think I'm attacking clerics or calling them worthless and I'm not. I think squads over value the class but they're quite useful to have around.

There isn't a class that can heal for that unlike Clerics and do you want us to do it with lvl 5 skill.

No more than I want a DD to have a skill at level 5 vs level 10 or sage/demon. Meaning, no... I don't. You should be leveling your skills just like DD's should level theirs, and tanks should level theirs.

Brael you have never played Cleric so you don't really have no idea what the costs are.

Bad venos don't, good venos do, hey just like clerics or any other class, imagine that. Do you want a veno that only has venomous scarab at level 5 around for DD'ing?

Venos don't need all their skills lvled as compared to a Cleric.It has been said over thousand times Clerics are expensive to play one but you have no idea.

I didn't say clerics don't cost money, but this idea that venos are cheap is ludicrous. It's been my experience that every class (yes, even barbs) has about the same expenses when people are actually being efficient about things.

We have repair cost to and and this doesn't include anni packs and his fact aren't wrong as a gold charm can last 2 days or maybe 1.Then there is pots how many do you think we go through with those say when using blue/red bubble .I would say it seems like you are better because you didn't get help from clerics going through the game maybe that is because of being impatient.

400k gold=1632000 for a gold charm. 900k mana=1.8133 coin per mana. Yuanxiao (jolly stuff at the time since anniversary packs weren't out to give everyone 75+ unlimited nearly free mana) was what, 500 coin for 2000 mana? That's .25 coin per mana. 7.25x cheaper. Apothecary potions get similar effects, though not quite as cheap.

Did you mean bitter? If so, I'm not bitter at all... I've had Clerics help me and I've seen Clerics basically hold squads ransom for what they think they need. Controlling costs in this game is quite easy but no one ever really wants to do it because it involves teamwork. It's a bit like the prisoners dilemma really.

Clerics get request to revive some half way across the map or or pm or even for buffs.I don't think you really know this class at all and I would say your math might off about skill costs.I have been told by and it is said in guides that Cleric is the most expensive class to play.

No one says you have to answer it, or even do it for free. If you're grinding 450k an hour which isn't unreasonable, your time is worth 7500 coin per minute. Lets pretend you were doing lethal areneids and were asked to go res at the hornska's near dreamweaver. It's about a 90 second flight to the teleporter, 8k to snowy village, 8k to teleport to thousand streams, 3k to arch, 5k? to dreamweaver, another 3 minutes or so to find the person and res them, around 2 to fly back to dw, 3k to arch, 8k to thousand streams, 8k to snowy village, 8k to that other village, and 90 seconds back to your spot.

That's around 6.5 minutes of travel 51k in teleport fees. Since you grind 7500 per minute, lets say charging 9500 per minute to make up for the exp lost. That's 112750 coin the person you're ressing should be willing to pay. If they aren't, they should ask someone else, or be more careful to not die in the future, or even group up with a cleric to kill them. This is assuming you have no reason to go help the person, like they're your friend you want to help out. In which case they should still be willing to cover the teleport fee.

tweakz

Lol, as if Venos aren't constantly hit up for charity work.

Tuli - Harshlands

Damewort - Sanctuary wrote: »

Veno is cheapest class only if you are fine with minimum. Opposite to other classes, veno can play well even with "ok" gears. Others mostly needs to get as good gears as they can afford to play well. Veno has less pot costs, cause of hp/mp recovering skills. So, yes, veno's min requirements are lower and cheaper.

But....

If you want to get the most out of veno, then it is one of most costly classes. It needs just as good gears as any other class + herc (cause veno sucks in pve without herc*sarcasm*)/nix (cause veno sucks in pvp without nix*sarcasm*) + pet food. If veno gets charm, then costs increases. If you dont want to slow down and bother healer all the time, add pot costs too... I once checked that fast FC run burned me ~40-50 lvl80 mp pots. In one day I dropped from 70 pots to 5 from 1 FC and 1 TT.

Easy money earning? Same squad running TTs earns more than veno soloing them. Grinding? I want to know how much bm/wizard/archer earns from grinding in Valley of the Scarred. With almost no costs and with nix grind I earn only 250k in hour there and only nobody else grinds on same mobs.

I feel like Damewort hit the nail on the head. Sure you could get by with the bare minimum, but I can see that making you a very easy target and probably dying a lot in pvp with just having 4 skills, crappy gear, and a un-upgraded pet. Also, I had no idea a random thought I had last night would start up such an interesting thread.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

Tuli - Harshlands wrote: »

I feel like Damewort hit the nail on the head. Sure you could get by with the bare minimum, but I can see that making you a very easy target and probably dying a lot in pvp with just having 4 skills, crappy gear, and a un-upgraded pet. Also, I had no idea a random thought I had last night would start up such an interesting thread.

More than interesting it is more like a common missconception people have.

/NiKi - Lost City

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

with bm and barb or ea too on posion mobs? that suicide. only cleric can do that but when i see the cleric mana eating rate... hm...

ok ur advice i must gather 25+20 grass for 5 potion what have 10min mana/hp regen(less than 1h the 5 potion) ofc until this i grind more on veno instead harvesting herbs b:cute

i was talking about cleric,not bm or barb.
and yes u can gather herbs,even more then 25 since u complain how u spend 200k on pots,this would cost u only some time,no coins at all.and to be honest mp charm is a waste for cleric,i got lvl83 cleric too so i got platinum mp charm since i am all the time in hh anyway,and charm was dead in a week or so.for less money u can buy alot of event pots which gonna last much longer.about cleric skills,u also dont need to lvl ALL skills,u wont even use them all,but thats ur choice if u do it.

Sandaili - Dreamweaver

Tuli - Harshlands wrote: »

I've been reading the forums lately, and I keep seeing posts about how veno's are the most cost efficient class. Since we don't use pots, we don't have a lot of repairs, and we kill fast. But, we also have a lot of expenses that other classes don't have. Like, the cashshop pets, sure you don't need them but people will prefer a veno with a nix/herc over one that doesn't, and they cost around 60 ~ 80 million coins (maybe more) or $200. Our regular pets cost money too. You have to buy food and skills for them. Sure we don't buy pots, but we still have to buy armor, weapons, jewelery, and skills.

I'm still a pretty low level but I was thinking that maybe venos are actually one of the more expensive classes. I was just wondering if any higher level veno's out there had trouble funding their character or if I'm just totally off.

If you want, you can buy a tome at any level, and you won't have to feed pets unless they die, and even then, the level does not go down to zero.

We take on much less damage to gear. However, I think due to a couple of things (like the fact that once your pet dies, you die) we may end up dying a bit more than other classes. The fact that you also have to direct the pet and make sure it does what it's supposed to do makes it a bit more difficult than other classes as far as paying attention, so that sucks, but....less damage/upkeep to you as a result.

I'd say with a tome it's pretty cheap. I never knew tomes work for any level. Otherwise I would have bought one a LONG time ago. If you don't have one...get one...feeding pets is annoying and expensive if you have battle pets.

However, I'd like to say that you also do have to spend money on things to make the pets worth it. You're not soloing anything if you don't have nice gear even if you have a herc. I need to upgrade everything but why bother if you're leveling....

So all in all - Venos may be expensive to get to where you want to be (battle pets) but after that upkeep is ridiculously low.

Brael - Dreamweaver

I've spent far more on a couple of refines than I spent more on my herc and nix combined.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

Here is the thing, Clerics maybe the most expensive class to play bad. If you play the class right, they are not that expensive (coin wise). I will grant to the clerics, that they may be the class that "wastes" the most time doing things that do not directly benefit them, like flying accross the map to go rez someone.

The money making potential for a cleric is the highest of any class, since a cleric can solo AOE grind on poison mobs virtualy for free, and they are in high demand for TT runs, where, in general, they get second picks, so they have a good chance to get a good mat to sell/use. On top of that, they are also in high demend for RBs, Warsong, Frost, and pretty much any instance. They can make good money alone or in a party, and finding a party is much easier for a Cleric than for any other class.

Although Barbs get first choice in TT runs (usualy), their ability to really solo grind is somewhat limited, however, due to their high demand, it is not like they hurt financialy either.

so lets start:
tt2-3 i can burn a half+ golden hiero without problem.
posion grind have eq cost, dont think its only weapon repair cost BUt cheaper than bm/barb aoe is true but i think we never said agaist this.
i am curios how much profit u can take from 1-1/1-2 in lower lv, later its kinda better but not in every tt but u need every tt for ur eq (example in 1-3 only behe shell worth and golds, all grind is cheap).

barb cleric cost go down with enough DD because have relationship between faster boss killing and mp/reapair cost.

solo grind is kinda good on poison mob, but u cant grin in every quest posion mob for lv up=> few times in solo kinda pain example the archer mobs.

few word about zhen:
who waste more mana or repair Archer>Cleric>wizz>>all others

i was talking about cleric,not bm or barb.
and yes u can gather herbs,even more then 25 since u complain how u spend 200k on pots,this would cost u only some time,no coins at all.and to be honest mp charm is a waste for cleric,i got lvl83 cleric too so i got platinum mp charm since i am all the time in hh anyway,and charm was dead in a week or so.for less money u can buy alot of event pots which gonna last much longer.about cleric skills,u also dont need to lvl ALL skills,u wont even use them all,but thats ur choice if u do it.

nice he dont need if he go to hh and half of skill is support until with cheap mode veno enough the pet skills+human 3 skill+support(hp/mp/changer/vigor/amplify) then lets count how many need a cleric :P

Veno is cheapest class only if you are fine with minimum. Opposite to other classes, veno can play well even with "ok" gears. Others mostly needs to get as good gears as they can afford to play well. Veno has less pot costs, cause of hp/mp recovering skills. So, yes, veno's min requirements are lower and cheaper.

this is what i try say.

Brael - Dreamweaver

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

so lets start:
tt2-3 i can burn a half+ golden hiero without problem.
posion grind have eq cost, dont think its only weapon repair cost BUt cheaper than bm/barb aoe is true but i think we never said agaist this.
i am curios how much profit u can take from 1-1/1-2 in lower lv, later its kinda better but not in every tt but u need every tt for ur eq (example in 1-3 only behe shell worth and golds, all grind is cheap).

Umm... HOW!? Half a gold charm? I've beaten the entire thing minus ancient evil with three people, with a barb tanking most of it (only the dog was herc tanked) and the cleric has only burned 15% of one and about 30 mp food. That's 285000 mana plus a few apothecary potions. The only way you're burning that much of one is if you're being inefficient because a full squad can kill significantly faster than a barb/cleric/veno trio can.

solo grind is kinda good on poison mob, but u cant grin in every quest posion mob for lv up=> few times in solo kinda pain example the archer mobs.

So don't solo archers as a caster? That's just common sense.

this is what i try say.

Except saying the class is the cheapest and so on is misleading because no one plays that way. The class can survive with the least amount of coin, but all things considered we're one of if not the most expensive to thrive.

Oh, and no one plays with the minimum.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Umm... HOW!? Half a gold charm? I've beaten the entire thing minus ancient evil with three people, with a barb tanking most of it (only the dog was herc tanked) and the cleric has only burned 15% of one and about 30 mp food. That's 285000 mana plus a few apothecary potions. The only way you're burning that much of one is if you're being inefficient because a full squad can kill significantly faster than a barb/cleric/veno trio can.

apothecary cost gold or time and time is gold mainly with compared with 10-20k weapon repair:P

try it once with a lv85-90 team without pet tanking and u will so how u can burn a half hiero with full team.........

like i said its will reduced by time when u kill faster the boss (maybe u ignored that), but dman, when u need the tt90 eq? after 90?

its work faster ofc with 90+ team and eat less mana and less reapair or if veno tank (what cant do every veno in that lv)

Except saying the class is the cheapest and so on is misleading because no one plays that way. The class can survive with the least amount of coin, but all things considered we're one of if not the most expensive to thrive.

Oh, and no one plays with the minimum.

i do like alot friend who got different main character (example wizz who not really tt farmer class and choose allways last time, similiar than wr/ea etc)

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

stuff

I have run TT 2-3 with a cleric that was charmless and the barb was charmless, and we did all bosses except belial. It was a cleric, barb, myself and a bm. At that time I was on my low 80s, barb and cleric on high 80s.

You do not need a charm, not even as a cleric, to be able to do your job. Yes, it requires team work, coordination and planning, since you need to get the apocs. However you keep claiming a veno is the cheapest, than you compare the veno to the most cost inefficient cleric with charm, instead of with a minimun skills cleric charmless. To be honest, the two skills you would need to go to TT as a cleric would be iron heart and BB, you would not need to level up any of your other skills pass the minimuns. And you do not need charms, you could even get away with only having normal gear for your level, since you would only be healing and BBing.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I have run TT 2-3 with a cleric that was charmless and the barb was charmless, and we did all bosses except belial. It was a cleric, barb, myself and a bm. At that time I was on my low 80s, barb and cleric on high 80s.

You do not need a charm, not even as a cleric, to be able to do your job. Yes, it requires team work, coordination and planning, since you need to get the apocs. However you keep claiming a veno is the cheapest, than you compare the veno to the most cost inefficient cleric with charm, instead of with a minimun skills cleric charmless. To be honest, the two skills you would need to go to TT as a cleric would be iron heart and BB, you would not need to level up any of your other skills pass the minimuns. And you do not need charms, you could even get away with only having normal gear for your level, since you would only be healing and BBing.

in good team yes but u are lucky if u can do everytime with same ppl's every tt what U need, but u must survive the aoes example 1-3(hurt really on arcane gears), and the potion cost nearly a half hiero cost, and u said not everybos was tanked by barb + belial is part of 2-3, i can say i go to a tt and i dont kill the strongest boss there (similiar than 1-3 without the aoe boss+with cleric cant afk too because must spam the hp pot for survive the aoes during u do the bb)....

u use same skills in tt/hh and bh/fb ep must max skill a bit more skill else i pt wipe, let say few example: bh 69/99 aoe heal needed and u must heal the tank too so u cant do zhen because boss ahve close strong aoe, 51 and few others dont work without 5x tank if u dont purify him.
lets say i dont max out the ress, then another noob die and we must wait=>time waste=>we know time is money (in that time i can do more profitable thing until i wait the squad(=pt) members):P

after that lets talk to grind:
veno can use same skill than in hh/tt, ep need his attack skills too else u must hit more times the mob with low lv skill=>more heal too u=more mana waste/more repair because no a pet tank :P

Brael - Dreamweaver

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I have run TT 2-3 with a cleric that was charmless and the barb was charmless, and we did all bosses except belial. It was a cleric, barb, myself and a bm. At that time I was on my low 80s, barb and cleric on high 80s.

You do not need a charm, not even as a cleric, to be able to do your job. Yes, it requires team work, coordination and planning, since you need to get the apocs. However you keep claiming a veno is the cheapest, than you compare the veno to the most cost inefficient cleric with charm, instead of with a minimun skills cleric charmless. To be honest, the two skills you would need to go to TT as a cleric would be iron heart and BB, you would not need to level up any of your other skills pass the minimuns. And you do not need charms, you could even get away with only having normal gear for your level, since you would only be healing and BBing.

I would add RB personally. Don't underestimate the power of RB with a wizard around to heal and keep magic debuffs on. People always like taking 2 clerics around, but a wizard+cleric lets you clear faster while giving sufficient healing on most stuff. The damage from RB outweighs the damage loss from the wizard too provided it's a full squad and the wizard actually trains their skills.

The point still stands though.

Actually, here's the numbers for cleric healing, wizard healing, and wizard+RB healing using level 10 of each.

Name		Channel	Cast	Cycle	Mana	Heal	Heal/sec	Mana/sec	Efficiency
Pureheart	2.28	1	3.28	280	3065	934.45		85.37		10.95
Ironheart	0.76	1	1.76	229.5	2514	1428.41		130.4		10.95
BB		0	5	5	500	1500	300		100		3
Morning Dew	3.42	1.2	4.62	517.5	3100	671		112.01		5.99
Morning Dew+RB	2.52	1.2	3.72	517.5	3100	833.33		139.11		5.99

Do note however that BB halves damage so it's efficiency is effectively 6.0 with the heal/sec at 600, and that I didn't add the magic attack boost to the combo with RB, only the channeling increase.

In short, if just BB can heal something, so can a wizard with about equal mana efficiency while the cleric can give the entire squad more damage using RB. Giving the squad a faster kill and lower mana use.

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

apothecary cost gold or time and time is gold mainly with compared with 10-20k weapon repair:P

Apothecary provides cheaper mana. Much cheaper. You can get 2-3x the mana a gold charm gets you for the same price.

try it once with a lv85-90 team without pet tanking and u will so how u can burn a half hiero with full team.........

I was 90, the barb was 85, the cleric was 82. The pet only tanked one mob and that decision was based on time rather than cost. I can nuke every other cast against the dog meaning we could trade off half my nuke damage to gain all of a clerics nuke damage, and higher barb damage. On mobs that require chain healing the tradeoff wasn't worth it.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This is dead on right. Our minimum is 500 coin for tame pet, and what heal pet costs to train... maybe Venomous Scarab too. No one, of any class plays with the minimum though.

That is not much and you can make that back in no time

I average 450k/hour grinding, that's my profit not gross. This just disproves the myth that venos grind more coin (or proves I suck, one of the two).

You might be farming the wrong mobs.

Ok, fine you got me. Go start in City of the Lost, you're going to need 2000 coin to buy a pickaxe and 5 minutes to run to a couple of mats and back to start. If you want to classify that as seed money I guess you win.

you do get free set of armour as well and can sell the mats no need to do it in 5 min.

Why not? I've done it before, I've given clerics res scrolls too. Infact, before I discovered how easy it is to make money in this game, I had something like 405k, the cleric in my squad had no scrolls, I went and bought him a few, no coin left for me (as in, I couldn't afford repairs) but whatever, that's the way it goes. If a squad expects a cleric to goto town/resurrect they should be willing to cover that cost. If they're not, they should be perfectly happy with going to town themselves.

That is nice and yes it is easy for Venos to make money since they can farm mobs 20 lvls over themsleves who else can do that and we can't AoE farm 20 lvl above us as like IceJazmin said

Triple spark and summers sprint usually. I'm typically faster at curing myself than the cleric is at curing me since they're watching six people, I'm only watching one. The exception to this is fast recasts.

Hello it can get reapplied right away and the stronger that mob the harder it gets

Barbarians, BM's, Archers, and Clerics (haven't been in squads with the other two yet).

I am talking about something completely different.

Clerics usually. One of their jobs is to try and keep me and everyone else alive if something happens. You seem to think I'm attacking clerics or calling them worthless and I'm not. I think squads over value the class but they're quite useful to have around.

It sure sounds like it and they are needed

No more than I want a DD to have a skill at level 5 vs level 10 or sage/demon. Meaning, no... I don't. You should be leveling your skills just like DD's should level theirs, and tanks should level theirs.

It would cost us about the same.

Bad venos don't, good venos do, hey just like clerics or any other class, imagine that. Do you want a veno that only has venomous scarab at level 5 around for DD'ing?

Mine isn't that high and I only lvl a few a skills up mostly those of survival metabolic boost,natures grace,heal pet and revive.[/quote]

I didn't say clerics don't cost money, but this idea that venos are cheap is ludicrous. It's been my experience that every class (yes, even barbs) has about the same expenses when people are actually being efficient about things.

Yes they are as you can farm 20 lvl higher than your self.I t has been cheaper for me.

400k gold=1632000 for a gold charm. 900k mana=1.8133 coin per mana. Yuanxiao (jolly stuff at the time since anniversary packs weren't out to give everyone 75+ unlimited nearly free mana) was what, 500 coin for 2000 mana? That's .25 coin per mana. 7.25x cheaper. Apothecary potions get similar effects, though not quite as cheap.

I never got that out of the anni packs.

Did you mean bitter? If so, I'm not bitter at all... I've had Clerics help me and I've seen Clerics basically hold squads ransom for what they think they need. Controlling costs in this game is quite easy but no one ever really wants to do it because it involves teamwork. It's a bit like the prisoners dilemma really.

It sure sound like it

No one says you have to answer it, or even do it for free. If you're grinding 450k an hour which isn't unreasonable, your time is worth 7500 coin per minute. Lets pretend you were doing lethal areneids and were asked to go res at the hornska's near dreamweaver. It's about a 90 second flight to the teleporter, 8k to snowy village, 8k to teleport to thousand streams, 3k to arch, 5k? to dreamweaver, another 3 minutes or so to find the person and res them, around 2 to fly back to dw, 3k to arch, 8k to thousand streams, 8k to snowy village, 8k to that other village, and 90 seconds back to your spot.

That is right you can make more coin per minute faster than any other class.

That's around 6.5 minutes of travel 51k in teleport fees. Since you grind 7500 per minute, lets say charging 9500 per minute to make up for the exp lost. That's 112750 coin the person you're ressing should be willing to pay. If they aren't, they should ask someone else, or be more careful to not die in the future, or even group up with a cleric to kill them. This is assuming you have no reason to go help the person, like they're your friend you want to help out. In which case they should still be willing to cover the teleport fee.

They don't want to pay teleport fees and keep asking for a res or buffs.The whole thing here is that there is way to many Venos 10 Venos to 1 of any other class.why do other make Venos easy they cheap to make and easy to farm with.It is known fact in this game.

Orignally posted by Ice Shadows
so lets start:
tt2-3 i can burn a half+ golden hiero without problem.
posion grind have eq cost, dont think its only weapon repair cost BUt cheaper than bm/barb aoe is true but i think we never said agaist this.
i am curios how much profit u can take from 1-1/1-2 in lower lv, later its kinda better but not in every tt but u need every tt for ur eq (example in 1-3 only behe shell worth and golds, all grind is cheap).

barb cleric cost go down with enough DD because have relationship between faster boss killing and mp/reapair cost.

solo grind is kinda good on poison mob, but u cant grin in every quest posion mob for lv up=> few times in solo kinda pain example the archer mobs.

few word about zhen:
who waste more mana or repair Archer>Cleric>wizz>>all others

This might be true but no other class except Barb pays that amount for charm of they use them or pots

Orinally posted by Ice Jazmin
Here is the thing, Clerics maybe the most expensive class to play bad. If you play the class right, they are not that expensive (coin wise). I will grant to the clerics, that they may be the class that "wastes" the most time doing things that do not directly benefit them, like flying accross the map to go rez someone.

The money making potential for a cleric is the highest of any class, since a cleric can solo AOE grind on poison mobs virtualy for free, and they are in high demand for TT runs, where, in general, they get second picks, so they have a good chance to get a good mat to sell/use. On top of that, they are also in high demend for RBs, Warsong, Frost, and pretty much any instance. They can make good money alone or in a party, and finding a party is much easier for a Cleric than for any other class.

They are expensive even from lvl 1 on coin wise and we can't make money unlike Venos as AOE grinding isn't effectively make that much per min. and it require you to travel.Venos can travel any where there are nice high lvl mobs.I have don't this with my lvl 51 Veno with lvl 40 wraith armour on farm lvl 60 to 65 mobs even in the swamps.I don't have any maxed out skills on my Veno unlike my Cleric.What do you mean play the class right most do play it right?

I will say this though Barbs are up there with Clerics as in costs.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Apothecary provides cheaper mana. Much cheaper. You can get 2-3x the mana a gold charm gets you for the same price.


I was 90, the barb was 85, the cleric was 82. The pet only tanked one mob and that decision was based on time rather than cost. I can nuke every other cast against the dog meaning we could trade off half my nuke damage to gain all of a clerics nuke damage, and higher barb damage. On mobs that require chain healing the tradeoff wasn't worth it.

i dont know maybe u have right here, i dont know here the prices but pharma pot price is depend on server and mana usage from build (i can keep the zhen with potion at 8x but i cant with full con build or any 7x lv).

like another poster said cleric must max out on few skill so, since "cleric is healer" only that need for hh else if cleric nuke he do pretty less dmg with lv1 skills and if he want do few dmg in nuke then we cant let lv1 attack skill same if he want grind too.
this was reply to cleric enough onyl heal skill in tt/hh.

This might be true but no other class except Barb pays that amount for charm of they use them or pots

in zhen barb dont need charm same the bm, they are full buffed with nice pdef so they max few hp pot and running around mobs.

delta is different thing ofc, there they waste more than in normal zhen luring. i already maked small zhen pt with my wizz and cleric+ 1 lurer(archer with mount) at 8x spiders lurer have the lowest cost until a maxed archer skill eat a mp golden hiero in 1h24min cleric hiero a bit longer (2,5h) and wizz same.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

That is nice and yes it is easy for Venos to make money since they can farm mobs 20 lvls over themsleves who else can do that and we can't AoE farm 20 lvl above us as like IceJazmin said

Why would you want to farm on mobs 20 levels above you? Really, that is part of the problem right there, you are trying to do something that makes no sense. Just because it can be done, it does not mean it should or that it makes any economical sense.

Drop rates are designed to be optimal at level and +10 -10 levels. Once you get to -15 levels than you get jack. If you are trying to maximize your income, as a cleric, you will be grinding on poison mobs from 10 level lower up to your level, in order to maximize your drops and kill speed.

And for the record, I never said clerics could farm mobs 20 level higher, I said clerics can make 400k-500k per hour farming poison mobs with virtualy no repair costs.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I would add RB personally. Don't underestimate the power of RB with a wizard around to heal and keep magic debuffs on. People always like taking 2 clerics around, but a wizard+cleric lets you clear faster while giving sufficient healing on most stuff. The damage from RB outweighs the damage loss from the wizard too provided it's a full squad and the wizard actually trains their skills.

The point still stands though.

Actually, here's the numbers for cleric healing, wizard healing, and wizard+RB healing using level 10 of each.

Name		Channel	Cast	Cycle	Mana	Heal	Heal/sec	Mana/sec	Efficiency
Pureheart	2.28	1	3.28	280	3065	934.45		85.37		10.95
Ironheart	0.76	1	1.76	229.5	2514	1428.41		130.4		10.95
BB		0	5	5	500	1500	300		100		3
Morning Dew	3.42	1.2	4.62	517.5	3100	671		112.01		5.99
Morning Dew+RB	2.52	1.2	3.72	517.5	3100	833.33		139.11		5.99

Do note however that BB halves damage so it's efficiency is effectively 6.0 with the heal/sec at 600, and that I didn't add the magic attack boost to the combo with RB, only the channeling increase.

In short, if just BB can heal something, so can a wizard with about equal mana efficiency while the cleric can give the entire squad more damage using RB. Giving the squad a faster kill and lower mana use.



Apothecary provides cheaper mana. Much cheaper. You can get 2-3x the mana a gold charm gets you for the same price.



I was 90, the barb was 85, the cleric was 82. The pet only tanked one mob and that decision was based on time rather than cost. I can nuke every other cast against the dog meaning we could trade off half my nuke damage to gain all of a clerics nuke damage, and higher barb damage. On mobs that require chain healing the tradeoff wasn't worth it.

Morning Dew yeah right it takes forever to cast/channel unlike IronHeart or Wellspring Surge forget about PureHearted it is only used to build chi..BBing can cost a whole charm or lots of pots

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Why would you want to farm on mobs 20 levels above you? Really, that is part of the problem right there, you are trying to do something that makes no sense. Just because it can be done, it does not mean it should or that it makes any economical sense.

Drop rates are designed to be optimal at level and +10 -10 levels. Once you get to -15 levels than you get jack. If you are trying to maximize your income, as a cleric, you will be grinding on poison mobs from 10 level lower up to your level, in order to maximize your drops and kill speed.

And for the record, I never said clerics could farm mobs 20 level higher, I said clerics can make 400k-500k per hour farming poison mobs with virtualy no repair costs.

I would farm mobs 20 lvls higher as the drop rate is better this is on my Veno.Clerics can't farm mobs 20 lvls higher than them selves only Venos can.Cleric can only farm mobs at their own lvl or maybe a few lvls above them.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And for the record, I never said clerics could farm mobs 20 level higher, I said clerics can make 400k-500k per hour farming poison mobs with virtualy no repair costs.

u can share me how can u do that? 100mana/sec far far not enough to spamming skills? and still i dont talked about repair, if virtualy dont got repair cost then still u zhan zhen/meditate in safe zone XD

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I would add RB personally. Don't underestimate the power of RB with a wizard around to heal and keep magic debuffs on. People always like taking 2 clerics around, but a wizard+cleric lets you clear faster while giving sufficient healing on most stuff. The damage from RB outweighs the damage loss from the wizard too provided it's a full squad and the wizard actually trains their skills.

The point still stands though.

Actually, here's the numbers for cleric healing, wizard healing, and wizard+RB healing using level 10 of each.

Name		Channel	Cast	Cycle	Mana	Heal	Heal/sec	Mana/sec	Efficiency
Pureheart	2.28	1	3.28	280	3065	934.45		85.37		10.95
Ironheart	0.76	1	1.76	229.5	2514	1428.41		130.4		10.95
BB		0	5	5	500	1500	300		100		3
Morning Dew	3.42	1.2	4.62	517.5	3100	671		112.01		5.99
Morning Dew+RB	2.52	1.2	3.72	517.5	3100	833.33		139.11		5.99

Do note however that BB halves damage so it's efficiency is effectively 6.0 with the heal/sec at 600, and that I didn't add the magic attack boost to the combo with RB, only the channeling increase.

In short, if just BB can heal something, so can a wizard with about equal mana efficiency while the cleric can give the entire squad more damage using RB. Giving the squad a faster kill and lower mana use.

morning dew not 4,5sec channeling?
ironheart better because stacking 4-5x in longer term than cold dew

in red bb that point u have right if morning dew is faster then it nice but in dmg the RB really very little addon +you can do spark burst because spark burst do same addon than RB do, and RB overwrite the spark burst buff.

about lower mana, i kill faster that true and less mana who do bb but same to wizz XD

if i understand u mean a cleric who do bb and 1 who do rb and wizz heal like 2ndary healer?

because then -1 dd +100%eq dmg what is low and -spark burst.

Someone already did the math (feel free to do a search for that thread), killing at level actualy provides you with the best drop rates for a character that level. Higher level mobs, although they drop higher value items, also drop less often, so it seems to average out in the long run, since it also takes longer to kill mobs that are higher level.

we can talk about shade hunter(idk the name here) world boss what afk killable with veno and drop time book and gr19 stone (u must stay alot hour but u can do during sleep) or about tameing rare pet what is +chance if in server the ppl's buy it?

about stalling in night that really cost really money ony for energy what pc use XD

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

I would farm mobs 20 lvls higher as the drop rate is better this is on my Veno.Clerics can't farm mobs 20 lvls higher than them selves only Venos can.Cleric can only farm mobs at their own lvl or maybe a few lvls above them.

Someone already did the math (feel free to do a search for that thread), killing at level actualy provides you with the best drop rates for a character that level. Higher level mobs, although they drop higher value items, also drop less often, so it seems to average out in the long run, since it also takes longer to kill mobs that are higher level.

However, the argument somehow changed from venos being the cheapest to venos making the most money.

So lets try to get back on topic of are venos the cheapest class. The answer is no, we are the 2nd most expensive class, assuming every class gets everything they can get to be as good as possible.

All classes need armor, so we can pretty much remove that from the equation.
All classes need weapons. Well, BMs actualy need more than one if using all trees, so they have extra expenses there compared to all other classes.
Every class can merchandize (where the real money really is), so they all have the same income potential

That leaves skills.
As already stated in another thread, BMs doing all 4 trees are the most expensive class to max all skills.
The second most expensive are Venos
Very close third are Wizards

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

u can share me how can u do that? 100mana/sec far far not enough to spamming skills? and still i dont talked about repair, if virtualy dont got repair cost then still u zhan zhen/meditate in safe zone XD

You use the 100mp/sec apocs. They have a 5 minute duration. You also use the 9000MP regain over 30 seconds apocs, the regain 60% MP/HP apocs, the event MP pots and regular pots. You do not have to meditate at all to be able to spam skills. You can use apoc and regular/event pots at same time. Between the different apoc pots and the event/regular ones, you should be able to farm nicely.

Poison only mobs do not cause armor damage, so the only repair costs you will have will be your weapon.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You use the 100mp/sec apocs. They have a 5 minute duration. You also use the 9000MP regain over 30 seconds apocs, the regain 60% MP/HP apocs, the event MP pots and regular pots. You do not have to meditate at all to be able to spam skills. You can use apoc and regular/event pots at same time. Between the different apoc pots and the event/regular ones, you should be able to farm nicely.

awasome 3+ pharma. potion for each boss when have 6-7 boss(general 1 boss around 10min)+ a bit repair vs a bit repair (since everybody opened the box for critbook and 40 misterious chip/token)
same everywhere still cheaper, in aoe mobs u drink really nice amount of pot/hour compared with a veno.

if u use like a alt really the cheapest compared with my other alts. most of class have few thing where the job ur class can do better or cheaper, in avarage thing veno or better or cheaper, if u want be sametime in pvp too its ofc u must pay else senseless u be the best and cheapest(but the point with lowest cost still playable in pve, in tt, in bh, in tuesday event/wednesday event with money he could be good in pk events too) in same time but u can choose, u pay to ur veno or no and in this term still veno win.

All classes need armor, so we can pretty much remove that from the equation.

true but if cleric die then pt wipe if veno die by aoe still u can get ress.

Skimi - Dreamweaver

PVE based venos are cheap, but only if you want to level it cheap, if you want to get every skill what you don't even ever gonna use or get uber gears then yes its gonna be expensive like other classes.
Level only those skills that you need for solo and squad:
For solo:
hp/mp regen, hp/mp switch
any attack skill
pet heal

For squad:
Bramble
Amplify
Spark passing skill

For RBs:
Both AOE skills

To make money:
Pet tame(catch and sell rare pets)
Pet heal(do TT runs)

So there are like 10 skills only what you need to be good veno in PVE, while clerics have like 17 skills what need to level and use or others will think you are total noob.
Venos have most less mp/hp usage and repairs
Well it is different for people who PVP.
And veno don't need a herc. If you do get herc then think about it as like investment to make even more money. Getting herc will pay off. Its not like you spend 80 mils on gold gears what you gonna destroy after using, you will always have herc, you will be able to get 80mils back in much shorter time if you want to and because of herc you will be wanted in more squads.

rinuruc

considering money id actually say bm is cheapest,... nonherc venos cannot grind anywhere near as efficient as an axe bm,... in the time a veno kills one mob, the bm kills six or seven,... (though i guess the best grinder will be psy soon,... aoe stun from range :S), bm lures seven, stuns seven, **** seven, picks up drops,... veno lets pet hit one or two, with tough on,... hits a nox gas, maybe an ironwood or a lucky,... hits heal again,... comes down to player+pet vs one mob, and only one aoe vs the second mob,... im guessin thats kinda sad if you compare grinding-efficiency of venos vs bms,... (atm the example i have in mind is seeweed thiefs near sanc,... bms kinda **** there while venos even with wood-dmg vs earth-element mobs still cant be anywhere near as efficient as a bm,...) (bm can even just not use a charm,... they got enough hp/def/evasion to do it with one hp pot per seven mobs,... but if they wanna be cheap they can even meditate theyr hp back up and still beat the veno in amount of mobs in a certain amount of time they grinded,...

Shadowvzs - Lost City

rinuruc wrote: »

considering money id actually say bm is cheapest,... nonherc venos cannot grind anywhere near as efficient as an axe bm,... in the time a veno kills one mob, the bm kills six or seven,... (though i guess the best grinder will be psy soon,... aoe stun from range :S), bm lures seven, stuns seven, **** seven, picks up drops,... veno lets pet hit one or two, with tough on,... hits a nox gas, maybe an ironwood or a lucky,... hits heal again,... comes down to player+pet vs one mob, and only one aoe vs the second mob,... im guessin thats kinda sad if you compare grinding-efficiency of venos vs bms,... (atm the example i have in mind is seeweed thiefs near sanc,... bms kinda **** there while venos even with wood-dmg vs earth-element mobs still cant be anywhere near as efficient as a bm,...) (bm can even just not use a charm,... they got enough hp/def/evasion to do it with one hp pot per seven mobs,... but if they wanna be cheap they can even meditate theyr hp back up and still beat the veno in amount of mobs in a certain amount of time they grinded,...

they dont use nothing, they dont have repair or mana usage abosulet and on they 20mob absolute dont do damage XD

alot herc cry abbe i am curios why dont cried nobody in that more than 2 year when dont was herc and phoenix in PW MY example XD i dont really see a normal thread before herc "oh what expensive my veno and i cant grind enough fast with my pet" XD