Archer v. Wizard for DDer
Comments
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100+
i switch to other chars for some instances /TT/Nrv (if i dont need it for BH or sth)
or most likely just open them for friends (and buff :P)
do i need to say more? old thread :d
ps venos cant compete with clawrchers >.>
5aps-archer, -barb, -bm or -stabbiefish, whatever doesnt make that much difference in killing timei like potato0 -
idk still about clawarchers, yes they hit 2-3 times faster but dmg is lower and - and have no claw mastery.. archers have bow mastery that is 75% more dmg :> also archers have more Dex cos they dont waste points on str to use a claw, therefore have higher critrate, and dmg is higher in general.. but i see bosses drop fast with clawarchers too so idk myself if i should go there.. just that dont waste arrows and spark 24/7 so no need genie chi..
and no offence but for me venos are only good for amplify dmg - awesome skill.. otherwise they are not dd's comparing to archer but more like support and tank in some occasions..
as for wizzies - i think they get no benefit from bms heaven flame, like we do 2x more dmg? also no way for them to hit that fast, and somehow i see in nirvana wizzies are usually not that wanted
most wanted are ofc claw bms 1veno for amplify and archers b:cute
for me perfect squad: 1 veno 1 cleric 2 claw bms 2 archers (would be nice having barb buff too before that ^^ ) sins are alright too.. 2bms cos more heavens flame from what both bms sins and archers benefit ^^0 -
Obviously depends on gear, but generally i'd prefer an archer assuming wiz/archer have same refines/roughly equivalent stuff.
Even if i completely ignore STA,
i have an alt wiz 7x and archer 7x, archer definitely outdamages the wizard over some time (on a boss lets say). Mobs are kind of non-factor because they die too fast either way.
I also played both at level 100 with ''best gear'' for each class on private server. At this point the archer outdamages the wizard so badly over time its not even funny, even though the wiz is hitting like 20k-25k per spell. The difference becomes even bigger if archer can hit 4APS+ with fists/claws under demon spark.
I doubt anything changes at level 90 with +5 gear, im sure archer will still outdamage the wiz on a boss, but difference might not be very high.
Sidenote:
Low refined weapon, wiz may steal aggro from pet easily, but veno + pet damage > wizard total damage on a boss.
Assuming veno / wiz got same gear, i'd say wiz needs at least a +7/+8 weapon to make the pet damage non-factor and provide better damage over time on a boss than veno+pet. At +10 and such, the wizard completely gimps the veno, but definitely not at +3/+5 and such refines.0 -
Ignathas - Sanctuary wrote: »idk still about clawarchers, yes they hit 2-3 times faster but dmg is lower and - and have no claw mastery.. archers have bow mastery that is 75% more dmg :> also archers have more Dex cos they dont waste points on str to use a claw, therefore have higher critrate, and dmg is higher in general.. but i see bosses drop fast with clawarchers too so idk myself if i should go there.. just that dont waste arrows and spark 24/7 so no need genie chi..
and no offence but for me venos are only good for amplify dmg - awesome skill.. otherwise they are not dd's comparing to archer but more like support and tank in some occasions..
as for wizzies - i think they get no benefit from bms heaven flame, like we do 2x more dmg? also no way for them to hit that fast, and somehow i see in nirvana wizzies are usually not that wanted most wanted are ofc claw bms 1veno for amplify and archers b:cute
for me perfect squad: 1 veno 1 cleric 2 claw bms 2 archers (would be nice having barb buff too before that ^^ ) sins are alright too.. 2bms cos more heavens flame from what both bms sins and archers benefit ^^
Meh, -int archer hits quite nasty on lil barb =(. I think some EA critted me for 1,2k, with their attack speed & crit rate, it`s just not fun =/.Their only problem is that when their out of immune to dmg skills, I dun need many hits to kill one, though I guess it`s not relevant to topic. Oh and that Archer wasn`t with some insane gear, he used those lvl 70 mold claws, no refines. Was more like a test how much those hit =p.Trolling Sid since So Hot
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mhm guess will have to test claws for fun, but seriously claw archer in pk?
that should be interesting...
btw i dont seem to make any significant dmg on bms/barbs with normal attacks, i always use magic stuff versus them 'reduce metal resistance magic att + magic attack + magic attack) and usually enough :> and used to do thundershock too then i had diff genie
ofc have to stun them to have time to do all those attacks..0 -
Ignathas - Sanctuary wrote: »idk still about clawarchers, yes they hit 2-3 times faster but dmg is lower and - and have no claw mastery.. archers have bow mastery that is 75% more dmg :>
I believe that that is 75% of equipment damage. But you should be able to find threads explaining how fist/claw archers work if you look for them.
I will agree though, that if both are starting from full chi, a ranged weapon often works better than fist/claw in PK. But PK is not simple which means any simple statement about PK will not be very accurate.0 -
Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »@kenlee
The argument here is not on how potent a DD a wiz can be. Its already known wizards have the highest DPH in the game.
The real discussion in this thread was basically to see which DD would one prefer in their squads and for what reasons. It might have got derailed a bit along the way.
yea i know and to respond to your post, i prefer wiz because a decent one doesnt get agro and also have better defenses than archers with decent gear in case of aoe or such things.
i wanted to respond to this kind of posts
7x is nothing, like i said archers have an easier time and usually much cheaper to gain same dps as wiz, even at higher lvlGasLeak - Dreamweaver wrote: »Even if i completely ignore STA,
i have an alt wiz 7x and archer 7x, archer definitely outdamages the wizard over some time (on a boss lets say). Mobs are kind of non-factor because they die too fast either way.
I also played both at level 100 with ''best gear'' for each class on private server. At this point the archer outdamages the wizard so badly over time its not even funny, even though the wiz is hitting like 20k-25k per spell. The difference becomes even bigger if archer can hit 4APS+ with fists/claws under demon spark.
I doubt anything changes at level 90 with +5 gear, im sure archer will still outdamage the
dont bring p.servers here, im sure that i can make a wiz too like this one ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQWUtAwt_tU ) and gain chi that fast that i can probably perma spark.
im talking about demon wiz for example that can gain high -channeling. that means more hits in the same time, more chi gained, demon spark more often and so on. you are still limited by spells casting time but its way other thing than common wizzies.
no doubt that everything with 5 atk/sec and decent phys attack has like like a few times more dps than others but thats another story0 -
archers cant use skills in pk with claws 0
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Ignathas - Sanctuary wrote: »mhm guess will have to test claws for fun, but seriously claw archer in pk? that should be interesting...
btw i dont seem to make any significant dmg on bms/barbs with normal attacks, i always use magic stuff versus them 'reduce metal resistance magic att + magic attack + magic attack) and usually enough :> and used to do thundershock too then i had diff genie
ofc have to stun them to have time to do all those attacks..
Meh, wanted test dmg on HA =/. But meh, with those freaking blessings it was quite damn close he didn`t kill me trough charm before I could one shot zerk him =p. Well he was demon sparked so meh, I could have kited but well, no fun in there =p. But no, it was no real PK, more of testing how hard we hit each other after instance =p.Trolling Sid since So Hot0 -
dont bring p.servers here, im sure that i can make a wiz too like this one ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQWUtAwt_tU ) and gain chi that fast that i can probably perma spark.
im talking about demon wiz for example that can gain high -channeling. that means more hits in the same time, more chi gained, demon spark more often and so on. you are still limited by spells casting time but its way other thing than common wizzies.
I mentioned private server because i was the one playing both toons there with gear that people do have on official servers here (there was no -18% channel rings involved or any stuff like that).
TT99 sets, lunar rings and rank 8 for both classes -> archer wins as a DD easily.
The only reason i even hit private servers every once in a while is exactly for this purpose. How does class X do with gear Y, how does class X fare against class Y with XY setup, how does this combo work against class X etc..
I don't do private servers so i can 1-shot Krixxix or w/e, i use it for testing purposes. Game works same way there and here therefore my point is valid whether you choose to believe it or not.0 -
Veno with a nix would out DD them both lol but for in dungeon ehh Archer or Herc veno101 Blademaster(Pro/Fail 4.0 BM with 11k base HP+G16(+10))
100 Seeker(The Vortex Beast)
86 Assassin(Solo king)
76 Archer(Squishy Nuker)
72 Cleric(Horrible healer)
67 Barb(Buff baby)
61 Wizard(King Aoe)
37 Mystic(Fun project)0 -
I chose the more comedy option (as you should all do). 0
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Runemine - Dreamweaver wrote: »Veno with a nix would out DD them both lol but for in dungeon ehh Archer or Herc veno
Wrong.
Assassin > Claw BM > Claw Barb <==> Claw Archer >>>>>>>>>> Any other DD in this game.
All of the above mentioned can reach 4-5 attacks per second.
That is permanent demon or sage spark.
Permanent 500% increase in damage.
A 500% increase is equivalent to 6x your damage - which is better than any bow, or other weapon in game.
Note: they hit with this insane damage 5 times a second.
So in a second they'll already deal damage nearly equivalent to 5 of your attacks, or 1 bash of a Herc in an instance.
There is nothing stopping mages or other magic classes from using claws - except the fact it takes an enormous investment into STR and DEX which they simply cant afford.
The only reason Assassins are top is because of their ability to magically increase their critical-hit damage, and their attack level.0 -
you forget 1 thing that then you demon/sage spark - you cannot attack.. perma spark = you waste loads of time while those like 5 seconds end every spark you make, meanwhile others deal damage at that time..
but nonetheless - i always use cloud eruption, so i pretty much also have perma spark b:victory and if i was using white tea apo and frenzy as genie i can reach insane dmg with a bow, and i bet its better DD then claws/fists, just need to get gear same as those rich ppl using claws/fists b:shocked
once again:
claw - way faster
bow - 75% bow mastery, higher dmg, more dex = more dmg and crit
claws are cheaper - no arrows and no genie skills, but doesnt make it a better DD with same gear, if archers use other resourses then afk-dd
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Ignathas - Sanctuary wrote: »you forget 1 thing that then you demon/sage spark - you cannot attack.. perma spark = you waste loads of time while those like 5 seconds end every spark you make, meanwhile others deal damage at that time..
but nonetheless - i always use cloud eruption, so i pretty much also have perma spark b:victory and if i was using white tea apo and frenzy as genie i can reach insane dmg with a bow, and i bet its better DD then claws/fists, just need to get gear same as those rich ppl using claws/fists b:shocked
once again:
claw - way faster
bow - 75% bow mastery, higher dmg, more dex = more dmg and crit
claws are cheaper - no arrows and no genie skills, but doesnt make it a better DD with same gear, if archers use other resourses then afk-dd
fastest an archer can shoot is 2.5 i think...claws do 5.0. I think you don't notice that aps is attacks per second. thats 2x time faster then any bow. yes we have mastery but have you ever seen a maxed int archer keep aggro from a max int bm? I still havent. not saying youre wrong considering its late and im not gonna try to guesstimate the damage but thats a lot of hits per second
And to the guy about defenses...when things go bad you cant seal/freeze/stun/or knockback a boss. Therefore those arent even viable. You have only spark resists/AD/tranqs or ironguards. You wont crit as much as an archer even if you are LA. And when bosses get unlucky spikes youll most likely die if it still does too much damage. not to mention archers are cheaper defense wise for tanking selected bosses. if you wanna tank a physical damage dealing boss then youll have to invest in garnets. All and all through what I've experienced archers come out on top in survivability. DDing on the other hand I have to agree with deity's list. although barb > archer considering a barb would have more str then an archer. but then again theres the dex and each crit adding 1% overall damage (i think?) per crit%. anyways im going to sleep Q_Q[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero~0 -
angellicdeity wrote: »There is nothing stopping mages or other magic classes from using claws - except the fact it takes an enormous investment into STR and DEX which they simply cant afford.
.
Wrong.
Except for the fact that all magic classes do not get patk bonus from their sparks.
Which makes them hit unsparked :-)Originally written by Satchiko to me regarding old spice commercial :
Hello Perfect World. Look at your cleric, now back to me, now back to your cleric, now back to me. Sadly it isn't me. But if you stopped being a noob and started wearing sunglasses you could act like you're me. Look down, back up, where are you? You're on Dreamweaver with the cleric your cleric could be like. What's in your hand, back at me. It's an inventory filled with the gear you want. Look again, the gear is now diamonds. Anything is possible with sunglasses. I'm flying on starter wings.0 -
yes they hit 2x faster, but fist/claw dmg in general is lower then any bow/xbow/sling ive never seen that but tbh i could steal agro but not keep it against them.. ofc me is not an example cos my gear is nub, and claw archers usually have insane gear - and that tells alot like striking dragon +10 alone is like wth, and all the -int gear.. b:surrender
p.s. no barb can hit 20 crits in a row, count that thats just me being lucky ofc. :P and if barbs were good DDs ppl would start taking them to nirvana, somehow they usually dont ^^
but maybe ill test claws someday if i have the funds, going after ashura armor atm b:shocked0 -
Ignathas - Sanctuary wrote: »yes they hit 2x faster, but fist/claw dmg in general is lower then any bow/xbow/sling ive never seen that but tbh i could steal agro but not keep it against them.. ofc me is not an example cos my gear is nub, and claw archers usually have insane gear - and that tells alot like striking dragon +10 alone is like wth, and all the -int gear.. b:surrender
p.s. no barb can hit 20 crits in a row, count that thats just me being lucky ofc. :P and if barbs were good DDs ppl would start taking them to nirvana, somehow they usually dont ^^
but maybe ill test claws someday if i have the funds, going after ashura armor atm b:shocked
5 aps + hell sunder + cloud eruption
would be 25 crits in a row idealy but gotta add time for human swap so oly 20Gifs are hard to make work here0 -
Is too much theory here for me to follow, but...
I doubt that claws are cheaper than bows, since you have to pay five repair costs per second, instead of one ammunition and one repair cost per second for the bow (or even slower if you do not have a lot of -interval gear).
Then again, high end damage on a bow combined with crits and sparks and amps can be nice. Fists have nice steady damage but amplifies work best with spike damage (and wizards are even better than archers, for spikes).0 -
Archers fer bettercin every way, 'nuff said...
/Tacitcal nuke, THIS THREAD IS OVER!![SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]<-- made by me o.o
I know its very simple and plain, but I like it XD.
I'm back! I knew I said i'd never come back but yeah im back now.0 -
no, archers like me fail at tanking metal warsong aoe b:shutup
yep with all the HF, amplify, extreme, frenzy, spark and etc. can hit up to 20 times normal dmg 0 -
Getting the int to do decent damage with claw/s fist ain't cheap.... (especially for bms, since archers/sins get -int chest since lvl 60) I see a lot of bms running that can just equip fists for build but got no gear to to make themselves useful.claws are cheaper - no arrows and no genie skills, but doesnt make it a better DD with same gear, if archers use other resourses then afk-ddAssassin > Claw BM > Claw Barb <==> Claw Archer >>>>>>>>>> Any other DD in this game.
You forgot claw/fist venos. Their x3 spark ads phys as well as mgk dmg. So it works for them too[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
vilkas is da pro b:laugh soloing every nirvana for us and we just join the squad so he can enter b:victory
and the -int claws and so on - i think pwi never intended that, just a sucessful gamers experiment :> but ye gl getting coins to make it efficient
and i mean cheaper - cos no arrows, no genie chi wasted (ofc cheaper if archer use nub arrows and no genei chi ^^)0 -
Shush b:quietofc cheaper if archer use nub arrows and no genei chi ^^)
Also the repairs on fists are a pain... I fele sorry for anyone tanking a 3-3, since nirvana ain't that bad & long.
As for archer or wiz. Even before the 1st anni packs that introduced the good easily available gear, archers or any other class was prefered to wiz; atleast that's the opinion I got from squads I went. Only times we had wizes if it was a friend.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
but wizzies can use water attacks against water bosses b:shutup0
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Ignathas - Sanctuary wrote: »but wizzies can use water attacks against water bosses b:shutup
Omg... rofl... don't remind me...
b:sad He wouldn't give me the shiney hand buff either b:sad[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
someone said venos, yes venos have melee weapon mastery (200% for sage, 150% for demon) but triple spark favor demon (650% weapon atk vs sage 500% weapon atk)
too bad 5atk/sec is kinda impossible to get for long time and chi gain is not the same as the other melee classes. i forgot BP from sins, doesnt work for venos
no there arent -18% rings yet but here on my server there are -12% and -9% channeling items.GasLeak - Dreamweaver wrote: »I mentioned private server because i was the one playing both toons there with gear that people do have on official servers here (there was no -18% channel rings involved or any stuff like that).
TT99 sets, lunar rings and rank 8 for both classes -> archer wins as a DD easily.
The only reason i even hit private servers every once in a while is exactly for this purpose. How does class X do with gear Y, how does class X fare against class Y with XY setup, how does this combo work against class X etc..
I don't do private servers so i can 1-shot Krixxix or w/e, i use it for testing purposes. Game works same way there and here therefore my point is valid whether you choose to believe it or not.
ppl should craft more oht items0
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