Archer v. Wizard for DDer
Linwiz - Lost City
Posts: 306 Arc User
I really want to know the opinion from everyone out there, do you think a wizard or an archer is a better DDer (and please provide reasons why I dont want a flame war, like saying "archers are better because they are")
I say wizards are better because
1. Im a wizard b:laugh
2. We do very large amounts of very constant damage
3. Very low crit strike % if you wear arcane (like all wizards should)
4. A wizard that knows how to play that class will be able to know when they might get agro accidentally (unlike an archer where a crit will get it like nothing)
5. Im tired of Archers thinking they are all that
On the opposite site I see a few why Archers could be considered better
1. Has Sharpened tooth Arrow that lowers max hp (but in reality doesnt that make them worse because archers arent supposed to take hits and that will make it easier for them to get agro wont it?)
2. Dont rely on mana to do everything (but I have over 8k mana now and in a good squad on a boss like zimo or anything else in fb59 I run out of mana just before it dies so.....)
3. Deals physical damage primarily for those pesky increased magic resistance mobs
So see I tried to show it from each side, but I want to know who you prefer in a squad and why
I say wizards are better because
1. Im a wizard b:laugh
2. We do very large amounts of very constant damage
3. Very low crit strike % if you wear arcane (like all wizards should)
4. A wizard that knows how to play that class will be able to know when they might get agro accidentally (unlike an archer where a crit will get it like nothing)
5. Im tired of Archers thinking they are all that
On the opposite site I see a few why Archers could be considered better
1. Has Sharpened tooth Arrow that lowers max hp (but in reality doesnt that make them worse because archers arent supposed to take hits and that will make it easier for them to get agro wont it?)
2. Dont rely on mana to do everything (but I have over 8k mana now and in a good squad on a boss like zimo or anything else in fb59 I run out of mana just before it dies so.....)
3. Deals physical damage primarily for those pesky increased magic resistance mobs
So see I tried to show it from each side, but I want to know who you prefer in a squad and why
Post edited by Linwiz - Lost City on
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Comments
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archers outdamage me on some bosses (basicly non-elemental)
(them getting aggro and i wont
)
wiz are better dds on fire/water/metal mobs (in that order)
i use to tank some fire bosses right on (bh79), cause i get aggro anyways->need heals-.-
*although i might add, most archers my lvl have a higher refinement on theyre weapon (me<GOD+4) and i had to get 50~r55 vit for survivability in rebirth
you say they dont rely on mana?
i dont need a mp charm... do they^^? kinda yes
*thinking of a Frost run, with BOA on many times*
Pets (not the veno, -the pet) pwn vs lvl [?]-bosses while everyone else is dealing low damage -_-
so...veno wins -as you spend most of your pwi time in dungeons and not grinding
*edit: herc has sick defense.. but isnt better in damage compared to other pets(as far as i know >.>)i like potato0 -
Aren't fist BMs the best DD 90+?0
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Linwiz - Lost City wrote: »1. Has Sharpened tooth Arrow that lowers max hp (but in reality doesnt that make them worse because archers arent supposed to take hits and that will make it easier for them to get agro wont it?)
No, the HP debuff does not generate aggro.0 -
Linwiz - Lost City wrote: »I really want to know the opinion from everyone out there, do you think a wizard or an archer is a better DDer (and please provide reasons why I dont want a flame war, like saying "archers are better because they are")
I say wizards are better because
1. Im a wizard b:laugh
2. We do very large amounts of very constant damage
3. Very low crit strike % if you wear arcane (like all wizards should)
4. A wizard that knows how to play that class will be able to know when they might get agro accidentally (unlike an archer where a crit will get it like nothing)
5. Im tired of Archers thinking they are all that
On the opposite site I see a few why Archers could be considered better
1. Has Sharpened tooth Arrow that lowers max hp (but in reality doesnt that make them worse because archers arent supposed to take hits and that will make it easier for them to get agro wont it?)
2. Dont rely on mana to do everything (but I have over 8k mana now and in a good squad on a boss like zimo or anything else in fb59 I run out of mana just before it dies so.....)
3. Deals physical damage primarily for those pesky increased magic resistance mobs
So see I tried to show it from each side, but I want to know who you prefer in a squad and why
EAs have more dps and sharpened tooth arrow b:bye0 -
can somebody make a calculation to proof the dps thingie ^^?
-> it means better DD after all
i want to see numbers
*just thinking:*
<talking about 9x?>
wizard>highest spike - but slow
archer>mid
fist-bm>lowest spike - fast
this should make equal dps?
idk^^i like potato0 -
so our big fat answer is:
DEPENDS
on
gear
build
target-lvl
target-elementi like potato0 -
HexOmega - Dreamweaver wrote: »can somebody make a calculation to proof the dps thingie ^^?
-> it means better DD after all
i want to see numbers
*just thinking:*
<talking about 9x?>
wizard>highest spike - but slow
archer>mid
fist-bm>lowest spike - fast
this should make equal dps?
idk^^
The better the base mag attk of the character, the worse long casting skills are for DPS. Getting that base mag attk in more will end up being better DPS end game, so you're talking about 1 channel 1 cast spells mostly.
Even with -50% channeling, end game wizards/clerics will not come close to the DPS of a end game fister. Think in the range of less than 50% DPS.
1. Attack rate affects gems and rings without regards to weapon. 5 attacks per second * shard and ring will be much higher than a caster can dream of getting from their rings or sharding. 7.5 times the amount with -50% channeling and 1 chan 1 cast spell.
2. Chi gain. 25 chi gain per second from fist means they can stay permanently demon sparked, constantly getting that damage bonus added on. Casters will not be celestial sparked with their much slower chi gain rate, even if they use sage skill. So even with a higher multiplier for casters, their multiplier will average out to less than a fister.
3. Refinement bonus for fists is 73% of magic instruments from the AsiaPWorld site. They still hit 7.5 times faster and have a higher average multiplier, so they will be gaining over 5.5 times benefit from each refine level than a caster.
So pretty much, caster DPS doesn't even approach the amout of DPS a fister decked out in -interval can deal. This isn't even taking into account the after cast effect between skill use, which pushes casters even further behind.Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura
Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx
:NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.0 -
archers with same equipment out DD mages nearly always.
simpleNullum crimen sine lege.0 -
To all of you, not really what I was asking, I really wanted to know if you would rather have a wiz to dd or an archer
And I put the veno option there because, well, a veno with a herc can solo anything... just sit in squad and watch them (not saying her because well you dont really know) do it all0 -
Linwiz - Lost City wrote: »To all of you, not really what I was asking, I really wanted to know if you would rather have a wiz to dd or an archer
Neh, I chose wizzie. Not because you're one, but its just easier having a wiz dd. Although archers are good dd'ers, they steal aggro too much. I hate having to juggle heals between a tank and archer, especially when fighting a boss. b:surrender
Although a good barb can prevent that, not every squad has a barb in it.0 -
1 wiz/1 archer for DD is good, archer for sharptooth arrow/general dps, wiz for consistent dd and emergency healing if needed. Archers don't have healing arrows, after all.0
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Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »Well... if you make me use a swiftwind crossbow, an archer might out DD me -- my damage would be cut in half.
However, if you give an archer an ancient arbor, I would certainly out DD them. Their damage would be cut like 95%-ish.
For the OP... you really need to identify your context before your question makes sense. An archer's sharpened tooth arrow is awesome on high health bosses, for example. But in many squads, one of each makes sense.
Come level 90+ there is no comparison on who wins. Even 80+ its pretty solid.
Firstly, for HH, Venos with Hercs are better than both classes.
Comparing wizard and archers side by size, archers win by a landslide.
(1): They critical, with 20%+ Critical rates that is about 1 in 5 shots they critical on. This massively increases their damage output.
(2): Archers can use interval gears. An archer with even a -0.1 interval on a bow will hit at a rate of 0.71 shots per second.
Lets say given 60 seconds that is 42 hits. There is a 90~99% probability an archer will critical at least 8 times out of those 42 hits.
A demon archer is capable of reaching a 1 shot per second rate (fully equipped end-game archers have this just from gears alone.)
That is 60 shots a second with a 90-99% chance at least 12 hits will critical at a critical hit rate of 20%.
In short, archers are able to increase their damage output over 30%.
That is something a wizard cant do even with tons of channelling gear - your skills still have cast time...
In the short run wizards out damage archers due to high spikes. In the long run a wizards damage is negligable compared to an archers because an archer can get out considerably more hits than a mage can.
Once you get to your 9x's you will soon find out that archers will consistently pull aggro. So much so that they often have to stop hitting anything.0 -
Linwiz - Lost City wrote: »
I say wizards are better because
1. Im a wizard b:laugh
2. We do very large amounts of very constant damage
3. Very low crit strike % if you wear arcane (like all wizards should)
4. A wizard that knows how to play that class will be able to know when they might get agro accidentally (unlike an archer where a crit will get it like nothing)
5. Im tired of Archers thinking they are all that
On the opposite site I see a few why Archers could be considered better
1. Has Sharpened tooth Arrow that lowers max hp (but in reality doesnt that make them worse because archers arent supposed to take hits and that will make it easier for them to get agro wont it?)
2. Dont rely on mana to do everything (but I have over 8k mana now and in a good squad on a boss like zimo or anything else in fb59 I run out of mana just before it dies so.....)
3. Deals physical damage primarily for those pesky increased magic resistance mobs
b:chuckle Archers can afk during HH boss n come bak 4 mins later to pick up the drops without Having to worry on Mana.
We are cheaper in Pve. We DD faster than a wizard specially when triple spark, n spike damage.
I say.. all depends on the boss or pve u want.. I think wizards easier to zhen with since they can keep it up all day while archers waste/dying barrage can be a mess.. unless u know how to trick it..
But in Bosses i say archers are just way better. (Quickshots Hell b:bye )0 -
I'd say Archer hands down until endgame. And even then there's quite the case to be made for Sharpened Tooth Arrow.
Not sure how endgame wizard compares to archer in terms of pure damage. Wizard has high %-of-weapon bonus, but archer will likely have Demon Spark, Demon Quickshot, a good 30% crit, and a fair amount of interval stacking.
However, note that an archer can make a terrible DD if they or the tank isn't careful. Namely, high crits combined with autoattacking can lead to aggro problems.0 -
Linwiz - Lost City wrote: »To all of you, not really what I was asking, I really wanted to know if you would rather have a wiz to dd or an archer
And I put the veno option there because, well, a veno with a herc can solo anything... just sit in squad and watch them (not saying her because well you dont really know) do it all
That's wrong.
It's not about the veno solo'ing, it's about the veno enabling everyone else in the squad to DD, especially on a [?] boss.
I dont want people in my squad afk simply because they can.
Assuming the boss doesn't keep the cleric busy (aoe or w/e), a veno can enable a squad to have basically 6 damage dealers.
Even the veno herself can sometimes cast offensive spells, but even if the boss requires spam healing a veno still has 2 instant cast debuffs (lvl 79 skills) they can spam between heals. Granted those 2 spells do not always work (% chance to trigger debuff), but when they do, you're bound to see some really high numbers.
I'd prefer to have both archer and wiz in my squad simply because of the above mentioned things.
Once again, it's not about the veno solo'ing, it's about the veno empowering the whole squad as a DD with tanking (when possible) and still debuffing which enables everyone to do even more damage.0 -
Tisa - Dreamweaver wrote: »That's wrong.
It's not about the veno solo'ing, it's about the veno enabling everyone else in the squad to DD, especially on a [?] boss.
I dont want people in my squad afk simply because they can.
Assuming the boss doesn't keep the cleric busy (aoe or w/e), a veno can enable a squad to have basically 6 damage dealers.
Even the veno herself can sometimes cast offensive spells, but even if the boss requires spam healing a veno still has 2 instant cast debuffs (lvl 79 skills) they can spam between heals. Granted those 2 spells do not always work (% chance to trigger debuff), but when they do, you're bound to see some really high numbers.
I'd prefer to have both archer and wiz in my squad simply because of the above mentioned things.
Once again, it's not about the veno solo'ing, it's about the veno empowering the whole squad as a DD with tanking (when possible) and still debuffing which enables everyone to do even more damage.
Actually, was wondering about this recently after testing damage in 3-1. How much damage does the herc do per hit, and what is the attack rate? I'm trying to find out if this is true, or another belief that will be disproven when people reach end game. It'll have to deal more than 10K per hit on the boss to successfully do it from all DD'ers, closer to 20K with end game refinement.Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura
Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx
:NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.0 -
Linwiz - Lost City wrote: »To all of you, not really what I was asking, I really wanted to know if you would rather have a wiz to dd or an archer
Archer 100% -
Any Place
Any Time
Any Boss
Any Instance
Archer Gets My Pick. b:pleasedExecutor Of Reunited ~ Level 3 ~ Level 85+ ~ No Drama, No Pressure Faction.
Hunter_PT - Cleric 9X, (Active/Main)
PoisonedTip - Veno 7x (Retired)
Skeln - Barbarian 4X (Rarely-Active)
Hunter_The - BM 1X (Rarely-Active)0 -
Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »Actually, was wondering about this recently after testing damage in 3-1. How much damage does the herc do per hit, and what is the attack rate? I'm trying to find out if this is true, or another belief that will be disproven when people reach end game. It'll have to deal more than 10K per hit on the boss to successfully do it from all DD'ers, closer to 20K with end game refinement.
The DD'ers aggro doesnt accumulate from all of them. E.g. Archer hitting for 2k x 4 archers = 8k dmg taking away aggro from herc. It's 1 individuals aggro that matters.
And yes, an endgame DD'er will steal aggro from a herc, especially on non [?] bosses. [?] bosses are are still pretty hard to take aggro from (although it's doable). Aggro control is another topic though.
My point was that everyone can DD (e.g. barb in non tiger and the cleric) instead of just the regular DDers and thus a veno can improve the squads overall damage on [?] bosses by adding the number of DDers to the squad and still doing the job of debuffing hence making veno a damage enabler/support instead of just the classic solo toon.0 -
yeah, every bm/archer got a full tt99 gold set +12 O_o
note: wiz buff kinda increases bm and archer damage
so instead of taking 2 of one class, take 1 of each class
(i wonder if its noticeable damage... or if i wasted spirit on lvl 10 -_-)
aah, when i look for squad members - i take those i like/trust most
(or simlpy who is availabl -_-)i like potato0 -
Shadowfire - Dreamweaver wrote: »Archers don't have healing arrows, after all.
I can see it now. An archer is chasing after the other squad members, shouting "Come back! I just wanna shoot you to heal you!!!!"
On topic: If I could only take one of the two, I'd prefer to take a wizard. There's a couple reasons, the first of which is knowing that all of their attacks are going to hit 100% of the time. I know archers hit in the range of...something like 98%, but I like a guaranteed hit. Add the 3 ulti's, and the fact that one hits for both phys and mag, not to mention the awesome debuffs at higher levels...well, it's rare to see a higher level wizard, but I do like them. Not that archers are bad (better buffs, spike damage, can barely be hit by phys attacks), but I likes me some mages more.I shall dominate the Dreamweaver server through the use of Baked goods...and only baked goods.^^[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Venomancers are Female. Barbarians are male. It will forever be this way. So suck it up and deal with it already.0 -
HexOmega - Dreamweaver wrote: »so our big fat answer is:
DEPENDS
on
gear
build
target-lvl
target-element
Exactly cant just compare class versus class.
But if same refine and type gear, max dmg build and lvl i don't really think its that much of a difference between archers and wizards, specially in fbs and instances with elemental mobs/bosses. I'm pretty sure a pure int lvl 101 wizards with a +10 weapon is just as good DD as my archer if we go fb99 or Warsong or w/e. Probably even better if the instance is filled with water/fire mobs and bosses.
Alltho for HH archers kinda makes it faster with Sharpened tooth arrow. HH doesn't really have that many bosses with elements that benefits wizards either, so archers are kinda better DDs, specially if they have hell quick shoot and interval gear.0 -
Alyosha - Lost City wrote: »Aren't fist BMs the best DD 90+?
correct. interval geared claw or fist bm who keeps sparking will out DD any wiz or archer at any time. atleast 90+.I'm sorry for misspelling / mistyping and grammar b:surrender
102 - Archer - Heartz0 -
Tisa - Dreamweaver wrote: »The DD'ers aggro doesnt accumulate from all of them. E.g. Archer hitting for 2k x 4 archers = 8k dmg taking away aggro from herc. It's 1 individuals aggro that matters.
And yes, an endgame DD'er will steal aggro from a herc, especially on non [?] bosses. [?] bosses are are still pretty hard to take aggro from (although it's doable). Aggro control is another topic though.
My point was that everyone can DD (e.g. barb in non tiger and the cleric) instead of just the regular DDers and thus a veno can improve the squads overall damage on [?] bosses by adding the number of DDers to the squad and still doing the job of debuffing hence making veno a damage enabler/support instead of just the classic solo toon.
Uh yeah, I kinda know that b:chuckle I'm talking about just one DD easily dealing 10K damage per second at 99+. Currently I deal 1600-1800 damage per attack on TT3-1 bosses with just Gorenox +5 when sparked. Deicides will be dealing 2k+ per hit when mid-refined, or even higher when upgraded to G15 with expansion. And at 99+, they can perma-spark for 5 attacks per second. So low end damage would be (5 attacks X 2K damage) 10K every second on TT bosses. With high level refine, upgrade, and extra abilities they will be doing in the 20K damage range.
It's always funny how much disbelief fist damage gets Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura
Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx
:NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.0 -
Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »angellicdeity, you are being silly!
No, what I said is the truth about Archer versus Wizard as DD's.
A wizard cant increase the number of hits he does by 30% in 100 seconds. An archer can. Couple with criticals, an archer takes overall damage to the next level.
A wizard may have spikes - and in the short run you will deal more damage. Anything longer than 3 or 4 minutes and an archer has done wayy more damage than you have.
Thats the simple fact end-game.
Only reason why mages do better at GV than archers do is because Barrage is a skill which is not subject to the interval gear modifications.0 -
angellicdeity wrote: »Only reason why mages do better at GV than archers do is because Barrage is a skill which is not subject to the interval gear modifications.
Perhaps with lvl 10 but demon barrage is alot more powerful.
I had a RB run with a wiz, her with demon DB and me with demon barrage. Both with lunar +5 and both pure int / dex builds. Demon barrage easily beat demon DB.
Demon barrage with a TT90 +7 Blinding Radiance beats DB lvl 10 TT99 +8 Scaredevil.
While wizards attack a little higher archers are much faster and will out DD a wiz on a boss any day. Wizards are not built for dps, they are built to spam large numbers with BIDS or BT.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Nowadays i think it depends on gear =/ i seen some very good aggro takers from both sides. Recent gears let alot of classes crit a ton. DD between those 2 for me would be someone who can take aggro and stay alive through sparse IH's.Linwiz - Lost City wrote: »I really want to know the opinion from everyone out there, do you think a wizard or an archer is a better DDer (and please provide reasons why I dont want a flame war, like saying "archers are better because they are")
I say wizards are better because
1. Im a wizard b:laugh
2. We do very large amounts of very constant damage
3. Very low crit strike % if you wear arcane (like all wizards should)
4. A wizard that knows how to play that class will be able to know when they might get agro accidentally (unlike an archer where a crit will get it like nothing)
5. Im tired of Archers thinking they are all that
On the opposite site I see a few why Archers could be considered better
1. Has Sharpened tooth Arrow that lowers max hp (but in reality doesnt that make them worse because archers arent supposed to take hits and that will make it easier for them to get agro wont it?)
2. Dont rely on mana to do everything (but I have over 8k mana now and in a good squad on a boss like zimo or anything else in fb59 I run out of mana just before it dies so.....)
3. Deals physical damage primarily for those pesky increased magic resistance mobs
So see I tried to show it from each side, but I want to know who you prefer in a squad and why[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]lagunal8.deviantart.com
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Hercs cant tank..Definitely not a herced veno.
Everytime I do a BH run with a Herc instead of an actual barb I always steal aggro.
Barbs for tanking ftw.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
|Active: Coalescence - Lost City, Wizard|
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I think that wizzies make better DDers cuz they don't steal aggro as muchb:angry I have a lot of problems keeping aggro with archers who crit and crit and crit. And then crit some more. It gets to the point where I want to take that bow and shove it up their... I think I better be quiet nowb:surrenderI used to wonder why I would have these scary dreams every month. About the wolf, who kept running through town. And as I wondered, I also thought about how I couldn't remember having those dreams before being bitten by this very big dog...
But now I know the truth.
And I am not afraid.
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Shredclaw - Sanctuary wrote: »I think that wizzies make better DDers cuz they don't steal aggro as muchb:angry I have a lot of problems keeping aggro with archers who crit and crit and crit. And then crit some more. It gets to the point where I want to take that bow and shove it up their... I think I better be quiet nowb:surrender
Arguably, that makes the archers the BETTER damage dealer. Stealing aggro more means they're doing more damage, after all. A good archer will know how to control their damage so they don't take aggro though. The only thing I've ever completely failed to steal aggro from, when intentionally trying to, is an interval-stacking fist BM. Just can't compete with those flying fists of fury b:surrender
Also, you really can't discount the fact that simply having an archer in the squad saves you anywhere between 10-20% of the time spent fighting a boss with Sharpened Tooth Arrow. I'd say that's what really tips it in favor of an Archer.0 -
angellicdeity wrote: »
Only reason why mages do better at GV than archers do is because Barrage is a skill which is not subject to the interval gear modifications.
Main reason why wizards do more dmg in GV is because the mobs in Rebirth has a lot of phy defense.
A regular mob in Rebirth has almost double the amount of phy def compared to mag def. There are even waves where mobs have around 5k phy def and 1.5k mag def, so its not that weird if the wizards auto agros everything even if he has lower refines and lower lvl zhen than the archer.
The bosses in GV tho have slightly more mag def than phy def which is why they always agro the archer if they get inside the zhen.
It really doesn't have anything to do with interval or dmg. Just go set up zhen on real mobs outside GV and see who gets agro...its the archer.0
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