Sage Versus Demon Archer, A DPS Study

2

Comments

  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Fastest way to build chi is TA/Serrated at 2.2seconds (0.6+1.6) for 30 chi (assuming no server/connection lag).

    I do not think this can be right: Take aim has a 3 second cooldown and serrated arrow has an eight second cooldown. Also, sage quickshot has a 3 second cooldown, but builds chi faster for sages than for demons. So... I believe a sequence like TA, SA, QS, TA, VA, QS would give demons 75 chi in eight seconds and would give sages 85 chi in eight seconds.

    Also, a sage will be doing higher damage with that kind of sequence, but I do not know exactly how much, nor do I know if this kind of sequence can be maintained for very long in non-boss combat.

    [And we also have mana costs, which matters to some people in some situations.]

    b:mischievous
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    You still failed to grasp the fact that demons can have that sustained rate by simply having your gear.

    Its not exclusive to sage. The Burst Rate from quickshot is the icing on top of that sustained rate.

    b:surprised

    You might be having some problems understanding english or my writing? I can not think of any other reasons for you to be thinking I claimed demons could not exceed my rate of fire.

    Instead, I was quibbling with your math. A demon with no channelling gear, and with a crossbow which has a 1.6 interval between shots can get a sustained average rate of 0.86 shots per second, without using spark, if I have done my numbers properly. But this will not be a sustained rate of 1 shot per second because quickshot itself takes time. (Also, I hope we can agree that a standard crossbow fires 1.6 seconds per shot.)

    Using spark, a demon with that crossbow and a non-laggy connection could shoot 12 shots before their spark ended, but that is not a sustained rate of fire, and those 12 shots are not equivalent to non-sparked shots.

    Meanwhile, a sage with that crossbow can sustain an average rate of 0.74 seconds per shot using a similar firing pattern to the unsparked demon, but this could be using sage quickshot (and, thus, building chi faster than the demon).

    And then, if you wear interval improving gear, things start get complicated because all of a sudden quickshot takes longer than regular shots even when quickshot's bonus is not in effect. I have not worked out all the possibilities, but if you want to try and work out how fast a demon could shoot with some shot sequence or another: my gear gives me an interval between shots of 1.45 seconds.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Assuming a demon archer has 60 seconds then a demon archer has at least 8, in the best case 10 chances to activate quickshot.

    b:scorn

    Quickshot has a cooldown of 3 seconds.

    For getting average rates of fire, simply, I think we can assume an alternating sequence of quickshots where the demon gets their quickshot bonus and shoots for another six seconds and then does not get their bonus and shoots for another 3 seconds. This would give your demon 13-ish chances to activate in 60 seconds. A demon's best case would be where every quickshot activated, which would indeed be 10 chances in 60 seconds (to minimize the time eaten by quickshot), but this best case would be one battle in a thousand.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    It depends. In PvP yes magic attacks can be preferred against some classes (Demons thundershock and lightning strike are winners for their chance to silence, and never missing attribute.)

    However, in PvE versus bosses, and monsters - you rarely should be using your lightning skills. Channel + Cast time attributes to at least 1 shot missed. You can deal double the damage doing regular shots than skills.

    But those shots are not equivalent to each other, and not all PvE battles are equivalent to each other either. For example, you might want to think about fighting wood monsters? Or, maybe you could think about a cleric's contribution to your squad's damage?
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    You need to understand that when you compare Demon and Sage you should assume the same conditions. The only thing allowed to vary are the skill differences.

    And this, I think, is where you are going totally off base.

    I mean, I totally understand that for numerical sage/demon comparisons you need to be very careful with your comparisons and you need to compare the same kinds of things.

    But, this "same conditions" principle does not hold for qualitative comparisons and sages that try to hold to conditions which are ideal for demons will suffer, and demons that try to hold conditions which are ideal for sages will also suffer.

    b:shocked

    Anyways... a fundamental point that I think was being advanced in this thread was that demon archers get a dexterity based multiplier which would eventually surpass weapon based multipliers. And, in some previous threads, people had been arguing that sages get weapon based multipliers which would eventually surpass dexterity based multipliers. But, when we level we get increased dexterity bonuses and we get better and better equipment. So I think both arguments have to be bogus.
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I do not think this can be right: Take aim has a 3 second cooldown and serrated arrow has an eight second cooldown. Also, sage quickshot has a 3 second cooldown, but builds chi faster for sages than for demons. So... I believe a sequence like TA, SA, QS, TA, VA, QS would give demons 75 chi in eight seconds and would give sages 85 chi in eight seconds.

    ....

    Yes, it hit me in the head that it wasn't possible after I typed all that up. which is stated in my second edit. b:shutup

    Still, I don't think anyone has denied that based on the first 3 skills and triple spark+spark skill, Sage is "better".

    Edit:
    Also, I don't think I was looking at any other skills other than the easy "3" sage/demon ones. So no QS chi gaining difference, more damage etc.
  • Quizenbort - Dreamweaver
    Quizenbort - Dreamweaver Posts: 71 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    why is it every time i read archer forums its DPS and Demon Quick shot and Sage Vs Demon. Try pvp and see if you ever use Demon Quick Shot... considering most people you will fight are close up .. you never will.
    If you want to know why demon is better. Try this logic. rather then all this dps ****.

    1. All demon skills upgrade your base damage when you get them sage in some instances has 10% more.

    2. Everyone is Charmed. if you want to get past it to kill them you need to CRT. So in essence CRTing is everything.

    Gear up your archer to have Max damage possiable.

    So here is the combo. Sharpen Tooth, Demon Spark, Stunning Arrow, Thundershock, Lightning Strike. .. person dies

    Now.. tell me what sage skills help that combo in comparison to Demon.... NONE.

    At lvl 99. its 10% crt sharpen tooth, 10% crt stunning arrow, More damage Thundershock, and the best skill ever NO MISS Lightning Strike.
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    The purpose of posting this here was to illustrate the two different 'builds', per se. Without considering chi building and sparking, a demon is capable of putting out more DPS but at the cost of spamming skill after skill, and only if the class is played exceptionally well in a zero lag state.

    People tend to say Demon is better because of the crit bonuses; but they forget that both crit enhancing skills take time to cast and have 15 second cooldowns.

    There are a large number of differences between sage and demon, but it seems that sages excel and adding DPS without constantly spamming skills, but a demon can do more damage if they use skills to catch up. That is all b:victory
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    The crit buffs from tooth and stun don't stack. They also don't refresh eachother.
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  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    The crit buffs from tooth and stun don't stack. They also don't refresh eachother.

    Well then I'm mistaken; thanks for the clarification Asterelle; I'll recalculate and attempt to figure in a 50% proc on quickshot one of these times.
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    After further review (and from all those demon archers complaining that I didn't figure in quickshot) I have crunched a new set of numbers. For the purposes of this study, I did not round Attack time values for demon QS up or down.

    Demon vs. Sage DPS w/ 0% QS Proc - Demon vs Sage DPS w/ 100% QS Proc

    Since Demon QS procs 50% of the time, it is relatively safe to take the average of the proc and the no-proc scenarios to get 1146661.54 damage per minute versus a sage 1042536 DPM, which does not use skills. This gives Demon archers at best roughly a 9% increase in damage over sage archers for the above tested scenario (perfect timing in a lagless environment), during which a demon archer expends on average 2335 MP and the sage expends 0. The total damage a demon can do is likely, however, to be significantly less than 9% considering it is impossible to react to a successful or non-successful QS proc given human reaction times and server lag.

    It is also important to note that a sage will have built up more chi during these scenarios. Of course, just like last time, there are many other contributing factors to sage and demon DPS that are not covered here.
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Waterboy - Lost City
    Waterboy - Lost City Posts: 405 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    idk y ppl still debate about this dps lol its aready been established

    when its dps demon wins because anythin sage can do demon can do better

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJYI7Glmaec
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Waterboy - Lost City wrote: »
    idk y ppl still debate about this dps lol its aready been established

    when its dps demon wins because anythin sage can do demon can do better

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJYI7Glmaec

    Sages survive better, duh.
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    With more and more -interval stacking you have a lot quicker chi generation from normal attacks relative to chi gain skills from sage. It also makes the effect from demon spark more pronounced since you can fire more sparked arrows per cast relative to sage and the spark itself generates even more chi relative to sage.

    Just as sage can get its attack speed from relentless courage, demon can get massive chi from either cloud eruption or chi siphon. Only difference is that these skills are much better than the sage skills. A properly stated genie can generate about 2 sparks a minute compared to sage's 50 chi a minute.

    Sage can get an attack speed bonus for 10seconds a minute (I think?) from relentless while demons can spam quickshot and demon spark for much more.
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  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    After further review (and from all those demon archers complaining that I didn't figure in quickshot) I have crunched a new set of numbers. For the purposes of this study, I did not round Attack time values for demon QS up or down.

    Demon vs. Sage DPS w/ 0% QS Proc - Demon vs Sage DPS w/ 100% QS Proc

    Since Demon QS procs 50% of the time, it is relatively safe to take the average of the proc and the no-proc scenarios to get 1146661.54 damage per minute versus a sage 1042536 DPM, which does not use skills. This gives Demon archers at best roughly a 9% increase in damage over sage archers for the above tested scenario (perfect timing in a lagless environment), during which a demon archer expends on average 2335 MP and the sage expends 0.

    I can see several problems with this analysis:

    You have assumed a specific build and you have assumed certain equipment, but I do not know which assumptions you made, so I can not check your numbers.

    Both sage and demon can attack faster than you have described. I can attack faster than your non-bosted-interval-rate, even if I was not wearing my +interval gear, so I know sages can and if sages can, demons obviously can. (And, I imagine I could go slightly faster if I used relentless courage, but in my opinion, genies charge too slow for this to be very useful.)

    (Also, both sage and demon would be wasting chi if they sustained this attack pattern without putting their built-up chi to some use. But that would change your attack pattern and reduce the effectiveness of demon -interval boost)

    Finally, you need to weight the demon's quickshot boost slightly higher than their non-quickshot time, because quickshot's boost lasts for six seconds and cools down in three. When you add quickshot's channel and cast time on to this and a bit extra for other shots not rounding off right, I think your weights will be near 60% for quickshot and 40% for non-quickshot if you are minimizing the time between shots (which you were not actually doing in your example).
  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    But, this "same conditions" principle does not hold for qualitative comparisons and sages that try to hold to conditions which are ideal for demons will suffer, and demons that try to hold conditions which are ideal for sages will also suffer.

    Firstly, again... From this single line it is clearly evident why your points are invalid.


    All the Quantitative proof has shown that statistically - the probability a demon will yield a higher damage output than a sage is solid.


    Again, true comparisons are done under the same conditions.


    Otherwise I'll just do this:

    (1): Sage wears level 1 armor, has level 10 weapon
    (2): Demon has level 100 Crossbow

    Demon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sage



    Again, fair and objective comparisons are done under the SAME conditions.


    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I do not think this can be right: Take aim has a 3 second cooldown and serrated arrow has an eight second cooldown. Also, sage quickshot has a 3 second cooldown, but builds chi faster for sages than for demons. So... I believe a sequence like TA, SA, QS, TA, VA, QS would give demons 75 chi in eight seconds and would give sages 85 chi in eight seconds.

    There is no dispute that sages gain Chi faster.

    Sure theoretically they'll get to spark more.

    But if I wanted I could do a statistical study showing that the probability that Demon Quickshots increased attack rate could match and beat the increased sage spark rate.

    Again: More attacks = More Chances to Critical >= Spark Damage



    Besides at level 100, both Sage and Demon Archers get Awaken - so the chi-advantage will disappear.

    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Instead, I was quibbling with your math. A demon with no channelling gear, and with a crossbow which has a 1.6 interval between shots can get a sustained average rate of 0.86 shots per second, without using spark, if I have done my numbers properly. But this will not be a sustained rate of 1 shot per second because quickshot itself takes time. (Also, I hope we can agree that a standard crossbow fires 1.6 seconds per shot.)

    Of course interrupting to cast will interrupt your continuous cycle of shots. The point is that a demon - if successful with quickshot will gain a much higher attack rate, one that is not sustainable yes, but deals considerably more damage than without.

    Even 1 extra shots from a set of 5 accounts for a 20% increase in damage. If you cannot understand how tremendous this is then I cannot help you.

    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    ...

    You may or may not be a sage supporter - though from the undertone of your posts it imply's you are.



    The fact of the matter is, I have yet to see a true study that Quantitatively says sages compare.


    All I've seen are wishy washy posts that qualitatively say "oh, more chi, more spark, higher passive = more damage!"


    The original poster attempted to quantitatively justify the sage path - which I think was a good try. Just it was inaccurate not accounting for the attack rate boost and critical rate boost provided by Demon Skills.



    If you do some digging on an Asian Perfect World Community somewhere you'll find a study which someone spent the time doing (Holy versus Fury Archer).


    The end conclusion was something like:

    The probability a Hell Archer deals more damage over some interval of time was 83%.



    It wasn't saying that Sages couldn't deal more damage. It said the likelyness they will is only 17%.
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    I wash my hands of this affair.
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I wash my hands of this affair.

    *drags you back*

    *stains your hands with said affair*
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    If you've read the whole thread, you'll know that they're comparably equipped lvel 95 archers with an EQA of around 2000; you can check them from the first graph/numberset in the first post.
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »
    *drags you back*

    *stains your hands with said affair*

    Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    omg do want! *takes screenshots* b:dirty
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Olba - Sanctuary
    Olba - Sanctuary Posts: 1,776 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...

    Oh dear, that sounds so wrong. Or maybe it's just the lack of yuri fanboyish in me?
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Firstly, again... From this single line it is clearly evident why your points are invalid.

    Again, true comparisons are done under the same conditions.

    Otherwise I'll just do this:

    (1): Sage wears level 1 armor, has level 10 weapon
    (2): Demon has level 100 Crossbow

    Demon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sage

    Again, fair and objective comparisons are done under the SAME conditions.

    If you compare the Sage and Demon using the same gear, then you are a fool. For an actual point, you need to compare them with their own respective optimal gear. Otherwise you will end up in a situation that is not balanced.

    You know, if you wanted to compare the two, you need to assume a lot of things, such as:
    1. You compare average damages
    2. You compare them over a period of time
    3.Demon Quick Shot has a constant effect over the pre-determined duration of time.
    4.Crits add a certain amount of damage per hit

    For example, you can take a period of 1 minute, count the damage that Sage would get within it, do the same with Demon and divide these by each other. Though, if you are to assume Demon>Sage, then you should divide Demon by Sage and vice versa.
    If you disregard what I say because of who I am or because of the contents of what I said, you are a fool.

    Everyone wants to be different, but when you're different you wish you were normal.
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...

    b:shocked

    /10char
  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Oh dear, that sounds so wrong. Or maybe it's just the lack of yuri fanboyish in me?



    If you compare the Sage and Demon using the same gear, then you are a fool. For an actual point, you need to compare them with their own respective optimal gear. Otherwise you will end up in a situation that is not balanced.

    You know, if you wanted to compare the two, you need to assume a lot of things, such as:
    1. You compare average damages
    2. You compare them over a period of time
    3.Demon Quick Shot has a constant effect over the pre-determined duration of time.
    4.Crits add a certain amount of damage per hit

    For example, you can take a period of 1 minute, count the damage that Sage would get within it, do the same with Demon and divide these by each other. Though, if you are to assume Demon>Sage, then you should divide Demon by Sage and vice versa.


    Comparing them under their optimal gear unequal conditions is stupid.


    Saying what your saying is basically proving the reasons why sage is not the best end game path.


    You cannot provide quantitative evidence to suggest the class is better under a fair and ubias study. You purposely stack and bias the study with unequal base conditions.



    Under the same conditions they have the :

    (1): Same Defense
    (2): Same Attack
    (3): Same Ability

    less the what is actually different between the sage and demon cultivation paths.




    If you insist on comparing on unequal conditions then I quote:
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Otherwise I'll just do this:

    (1): Sage wears level 1 armor, has level 10 weapon
    (2): Demon has level 100 Crossbow

    Demon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sage


    / End of Discussion - Conclusion Demon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sage
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    All the Quantitative proof has shown that statistically - the probability a demon will yield a higher damage output than a sage is solid.

    You have made a claim here, but I can shoot 46 shots in one minute with a white one star crossbow without wearing any interval gear -- edit: and I could do this if I was wearing just white one star armor, and if I also did not have any genie equipped, and I would also not have any buffs, and i would not have anyone else in squad, and I would be doing this without using any consumables except for ordinary crossbow bolts. And all of your "quantitative proof" has sages shooting 9..10 shots fewer per minute than I know they can do. FURTHER EDIT: I timed myself using fraps, and i am not this fast -- I think I understand the mechanisms, and I think I can improve my effective attack rate by getting better hardware, but for now: we can shoot a bit faster than our attack interval would suggest.

    (And in my opinion, how I do this has always been perfectly obvious, and well documented, so if you can miss something that obvious how can I trust that you have not missed other important details also?)
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Again, true comparisons are done under the same conditions.

    Yes, yes, yes, when comparing numbers they must be numbers which count the same kinds of items.

    However, if your conditions were garbage your comparisons are then true garbage. (You had previously heard of this "garbage in, garbage out" concept, I hope?) In other words, if your conditions are not adequate to support your claims then your numbers are not proof of your claims.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    But if I wanted I could do a statistical study showing that the probability that Demon Quickshots increased attack rate could match and beat the increased sage spark rate.

    Yes... well... so far none of these statistical studies have given either sages OR demons their full attack rate. So you can tell that I put a lot of stock in the conclusions people draw from them. But I have to agree with you that imaginary studies are even better!
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Besides at level 100, both Sage and Demon Archers get Awaken - so the chi-advantage will disappear.

    Oh, yes, because an extra 26.6 chi per minute means no one will ever run out of chi!

    Come on angelicdeity! You must put these points of yours in size 7 red letters. You have got to be convincing when you make such claims!
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Of course interrupting to cast will interrupt your continuous cycle of shots. The point is that a demon - if successful with quickshot will gain a much higher attack rate, one that is not sustainable yes, but deals considerably more damage than without.

    Yes, of course that was the point!

    And that point was backed up with both bogus and imaginary comparisons!

    I mean, how could I ask you for anything else?
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Even 1 extra shots from a set of 5 accounts for a 20% increase in damage. If you cannot understand how tremendous this is then I cannot help you.

    Honestly, even if I could understand this amazing concept, I do not think you would be able to help me. I am just... helpless!
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    You may or may not be a sage supporter - though from the undertone of your posts it imply's you are.

    Actually, I think sage and demon are roughly balanced. (And, I think that each has situational advantages which the other does not have.)
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    The fact of the matter is, I have yet to see a true study that Quantitatively says sages compare.

    Yes, yes, and... when I get tired of laughing I will post a study of my own for you to poke holes in.
  • Olba - Sanctuary
    Olba - Sanctuary Posts: 1,776 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Comparing them under their optimal gear unequal conditions is stupid.

    Saying what your saying is basically proving the reasons why sage is not the best end game path.

    You cannot provide quantitative evidence to suggest the class is better under a fair and ubias study. You purposely stack and bias the study with unequal base conditions.

    Under the same conditions they have the :

    (1): Same Defense
    (2): Same Attack
    (3): Same Ability

    less the what is actually different between the sage and demon cultivation paths.

    If you insist on comparing on unequal conditions then I quote:

    Blah blah blah. You're obviously not getting the point here. Sage and Demon benefit from different things, therefore they have different optimal conditions. From that, simple common sense says that unless you have both at their optimal items, you are favoring one of the two by default, which makes the comparison amount to nothing.

    Only after you have done the comparison under the optimal conditions can you bring in the argument of whether it's plausible to assume that these optimal conditions can be reached realistically.
    If you disregard what I say because of who I am or because of the contents of what I said, you are a fool.

    Everyone wants to be different, but when you're different you wish you were normal.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »
    b:shocked

    /10char

    oh Legy, you can tell it's what Elena wanted all along right? add in Asterelle too! b:dirtyb:pleased
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Actually, I think sage and demon are roughly balanced. (And, I think that each has situational advantages which the other does not have.)



    Yes, yes, and... when I get tired of laughing I will post a study of my own for you to poke holes in.


    I'll look forward to your study. However, you and your friend Olba here still seem to fail to realize what an objective comparison is.


    Both have situational advantages. But comparing them under unequal conditions is not an objective comparison by pure definition of an objective study.



    Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Blah blah blah. You're obviously not getting the point here. Sage and Demon benefit from different things, therefore they have different optimal conditions. From that, simple common sense says that unless you have both at their optimal items, you are favoring one of the two by default, which makes the comparison amount to nothing.

    Only after you have done the comparison under the optimal conditions can you bring in the argument of whether it's plausible to assume that these optimal conditions can be reached realistically.



    There is no favoritism when comparing each class under the same stat/armor conditions.


    Both have the same resources available and what is being studied is the true differences between a sage and demon cultivation path.




    What you two are suggesting is analogous to comparing a CS-end game equipped archer versus an non-CS end-game equipped archer.


    A CS user can buy all sorts of gear which heavily skews the comparison.



    At any rate, after seeing this apparently go nowhere (as it is apparent that you two still fail to understand how to objectively compare two things), I shall redirect you to taking some entry-level college courses.


    Namely statistics where you learn the definition of "bias" beyond what you can find on wikipedia.



    At any rate, say what you will - this topic is going nowhere - but it does serve as good proof as to how weak the sage argument is.
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    ...I shall redirect you to taking some entry-level college courses.

    [...]

    At any rate, say what you will - this topic is going nowhere - but it does serve as good proof as to how weak the sage argument is.

    Too small n, try again. b:chuckle
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    I'll look forward to your study. However, you and your friend Olba here still seem to fail to realize what an objective comparison is.

    Both have situational advantages. But comparing them under unequal conditions is not an objective comparison by pure definition of an objective study.

    I was going to thank you for your encouragement, but i think i would rather talk about your "objective comparison" issue.

    If we are trying to determine whether Sage or Demon has higher damage output, we could list some sequence of attacks and see how much damage each of them does with that sequence.

    Or, we could start with equal builds and name some target and give some amount of time for them to deliver damage and see which of them can deliver the most damage in that chunk of time.

    Or, we could also say "pick any TT90 green gear" or "pick any TT99 green gear" or something like that, and maybe throw in some increasing amount of damage received, instead of insisting that they have the same builds and instead of ignoring defensive issues.

    All of these are objective comparisons. You can mess up the harder comparisons by making sub-standard choices, but the easier comparisons might have sub-standard choices built in. (But this one might be too hard because it involves too many unknowns, like the exact benefit of some of the weapon skills.)
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    There is no favoritism when comparing each class under the same stat/armor conditions.

    For example, in this thread, we have a sage using quickshot (which builds chi rapidly) and then doing nothing with that chi. The comparison here is completely objective. But if you think this accurately represents sage combat, I must be stupid and ignorant, right?

    Well, all I can say is, no stormrage eagelon for you!

    b:angry
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Yes, yes, and... when I get tired of laughing I will post a study of my own for you to poke holes in.

    Please include the extra 4% damage from the Sage Sharpened Tooth Arrow.

    2% for level 100 archers.
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Please include the extra 4% damage from the Sage Sharpened Tooth Arrow.

    2% for level 100 archers.

    Impossible to figure out unless we specify a target.. If we have a set challenge as in, how fast can they take down 1 mil HP off a zero def char, then the sage would win....

    and that doesn't even begin to consider sparking and SE which is fine, lol
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Sorry-- I used a 6 second proc for QS on that simulation when in actuality it procs for 5 seconds. I'll need to recalc that 9%... so a demon will be lower in terms of dmg done.
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Sorry-- I used a 6 second proc for QS on that simulation when in actuality it procs for 5 seconds. I'll need to recalc that 9%... so a demon will be lower in terms of dmg done.

    It procs for 6 seconds.

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