Sage Versus Demon Archer, A DPS Study

Illyana - Dreamweaver

So many people ask which is better, Sage or Demon for their level 89 Archer. The question itself isn't fair because they don't qualify what they mean by 'better'.

Archers are one of the primary DPS classes in the game, and as such should probably be judged based on their ability to deal as much damage as possible in a given period of time. Sage archers benefit from better passives, chi gaining abilities and little better survival ability while Demon archers get additional bonus to crit, accuracy and attack speed.

I put together some figures based on the ranged damage calculation: ( ( 1 + ( ( 2 * DEX / 3 ) / 100 ) ) + MAS ) * ( LVL + EQA ), which isn't entirely agreed upon but generally accepted.

Looking at damage output then as a function of build and dexterity (while keeping level and EQA the same). To test this, I figure in an EQA of 2500 and a Lvl of 95, for the purposes of testing.

Pretty Graph - The Numbers

You'll see three semi-linear progressions; Demon w/ Crit boosting skills being the high end damage, Sage with passives and lowest is Demon with passives. I calculate damage obtained from crit (via dex) and with a base equipment crit value. I also put in Blazing Arrow damage in using both sage and demon values (for the purposes of testing, I did not give the 10 seconds of 70% dmg to Demon archers since I don't know anyone who practically casts Blazing Arrow each time they're trying to damage something and use the 60% value).

If you're to stop reading here, the choice is pretty obvious -- go Demon. Accept, this is incredibly misleading. The two demon skills that add crit, Stunning Arrow and Sharpened Tooth are required to get that godly damage. If you're lucky enough to be level 99 and have this skill, kudos to you... but read on.

Most archers at high level gear towards minus hit intervals on their gear, and for good reason. Assuming a 1.4 seconds per hit, we can calculate what the first minute of DPS between an otherwise exactly equipped sage and demon archers. Calculating out this timeline with higher or lower hits/sec yields similar results.

The first minute of damage between comparably equipped Sage & Demon archers, with the demon casting crit boosting buffs on themselves, assuming a copious amount of dex (500).

Keep in mind the above figures are an optimized attack pattern; if you attack once more or hesitate out of this pattern, demon damage decreases. So, after the first minute, a demon archer will only outperform a sage archer in terms of DPS on a single target for less than .4% and consume in the process 2,300 MP.

Yes, this is overly simplified. We're neglecting many things, like aggro control, accuracy/hit, target defense, defensive skills/range, celestial sparks, and a myriad of other skills that usually do not directly benefit DPS. It is interesting though...

So in the end, if you're an archer and trying to decide between sage and demon, know that in terms of DPS, the two are very comparable. Decide which path to take based on your play style.

Devoted - Lost City

more math? i need to reroll because i see enough of this **** in class.

Ussichu - Sanctuary

demon QS adds to DPS quite well i must say... scenerio:
Demon quickshot *no buff* > 2 attacks > demon QS *buff* > 5 attacks > demon QS etc

*this is at .71 attack rate*

dunno about you, but looks like more damage done to me. and with more -.interval gear you'll fit more attacks inbetween QS

Illyana - Dreamweaver

Ussichu - Sanctuary wrote: »

demon QS adds to DPS quite well i must say... scenerio:
Demon quickshot *no buff* > 2 attacks > demon QS *buff* > 5 attacks > demon QS etc

*this is at .71 attack rate*

dunno about you, but looks like more damage done to me. and with more -.interval gear you'll fit more attacks inbetween QS

You're right; it is over simplified and of course it doesn't stop there.... and then there are genie skills. b:surrender

LloydAsplund - Sanctuary

The archer forums have so much math..

Other forums:
veno- nix is the best! i solo everything.
barb - i has hp?
wizard - LA or arcane? omg we so weak.
BM - what weapon is best????
cleric - Q_Q my mp charm

angellicdeity

....

Well, that is some nice information, however, grossly inaccurate.


Factor in Demon skills like Quickshot and Demon easily exceeds a sage archers damage output.


A 30% attack rate boost 50% of the casts of quickshot.


So, factor in the change in attack rate, coupled with natural critical rate increases both from 2 masteries, Sharpened Tooth and Stunning Arrow and you find the following relation in terms of raw damage:


Demon >>>>>> Sage


How often does quickshot grant the boost?

Well lets calculate:

x ~ Bin(10,0.5)


Let x be the number of times quickshot grants the increased attack rate:


Then:

x = 1 yields probability 0.0097656
x = 2 yields probability 0.0439453
x = 3 yields probability 0.1171875
x = 4 yields probability 0.2050781
x = 5 yields probability 0.2460937
x = 6 yields probability 0.2050781
x = 7 yields probability 0.1171875
x = 8 yields probability 0.0439453
x = 9 yields probability 0.0097656
x = 10 yields probability 0.0009765


What is the probability that x (the number of time quickshot activates) is greater than some number?

x > 1 yields a probability of 0.990234
x > 2 yields a probability of 0.946289
x > 3 yields a probability of 0.829101
x > 4 yields a probability of 0.625023
x > 5 yields a probability of 0.377929
x > 6 yields a probability of 0.172851
x > 7 yields a probability of 0.055664
x > 8 yields a probability of 0.011718
x > 9 yields a probability of 0.001953


Therefore the probability that quickshot will yield an attack rate bonus is statistically almost half.

Then factoring in the attack rate bonus you will come to the conclusion that Demons damage far exceeds a sage.


On the basis that both sage and demon have the same gear/level, genie and genie skills, and stat-point distribution, then the only thing truely varying is the actual skills themselves (both passive and direct)


Now factoring in the attack rate boost of 30% boost for 6 seconds assuming a base attack rate of X, then:

Number of attacks (Demon) = (X)*1.3*6
Number of attacks (Sage) = (X)*6

Assuming a demon deals 1 more shot than a sage:

X*6 + 1 = X * 9.6

Yields x = 0.27 (which of course any bow can deal.


Assuming a crossbow attack rate of 0.63

Number of Demon Attacks = 6.048 attacks
Number of sage attacks = 3.78 attacks


I purposely left in the decimal places (even though you can have a portion of an attack) as it would grossly skew the truth as it would appear that Demons actually double the number of attacks of a sage since you cannot have "just a portion" of an attack.



Now you say sages have higher base damage? Well this is irrelevant compared to the damage dealt by critical hits.


Assuming you have critical hit percent C:

Then the probability you will hit a critical hit is :

x ~ Bin (The sample Size, C)


Given that a demon deals at least 2 shots more than a sage archer under increased attack conditions then you see that in effect:


Sage Probability Sample:

x ~ Bin ( 4 , C ) <- this should REALLY be 3 since .78 of an attack does not count.


Demon Probability Sample:

x ~ Bin ( 6 , C )


If you follow through with the calculations and combine it with the attack rate statistic above you will see:

Demon >>>>>> Sage

Legerity - Sanctuary

Of course if we were to only calculate passives and the first 3 easy skills that they are both similar/equal in DPS.

Stun is available at 92. Quickshot is available at 89.

As soon as those are introduced in, we have a clear winner.

There is no substitute for a decked out -interval demon archer who utilisies stun/qs+spark (sharp+qs at 99 is better due to no downtime in crit bonus) with passives apart from a decked out -interval fist user.

edit: poster 6 is going to freak the Archer community. b:laugh

Illyana - Dreamweaver

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yes, this is overly simplified. We're neglecting many things, like aggro control, accuracy/hit, target defense, defensive skills/range, celestial sparks, and a myriad of other skills that usually do not directly benefit DPS. It is interesting though...

b:surrenderb:surrenderb:surrender

Legerity - Sanctuary

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

b:surrenderb:surrenderb:surrender

That's the thing though.

You're delibrately neglecting the skills that make going demon the better choice. b:shutup

Illyana - Dreamweaver

Nah, it just gets more difficult to calculate, lol...

Genie skills do not stack with demon attack speed buffs, but a sage can attack at nearly the same rate at 100% proc with them.

It just becomes stupidly pointless to calculate it out; I purposely did not calculate percentage occurrences or the effect of sparks, chi, etc.

Legerity - Sanctuary

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Nah, it just gets more difficult to calculate, lol...

Genie skills do not stack with demon attack speed buffs, but a sage can attack at nearly the same rate at 100% proc with them.

It just becomes stupidly pointless to calculate it out; I purposely did not calculate percentage occurrences or the effect of sparks, chi, etc.

Yes but then Demon Archers could use EP. Sure a Sage could too but then where do they get the energy for Relentless courage? (if they stat vit on genie then their relentless becomes subpar in terms of IAS)

Yes it does become messy and ugly, but the point is, you're delibrately "nerfing" the Demon Archer's output in this study to allow Sage counterparts to benefit from their better (slightly) inherent passives.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes but then Demon Archers could use EP. Sure a Sage could too but then where do they get the energy for Relentless courage? (if they stat vit on genie then their relentless becomes subpar in terms of IAS)

Yes it does become messy and ugly, but the point is, you're delibrately "nerfing" the Demon Archer's output in this study to allow Sage counterparts to benefit from their better (slightly) inherent passives.

Deliberate? Nah. Lazy? Sure b:victory

Legerity - Sanctuary

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Deliberate? Nah. Lazy? Sure b:victory

I guess that reason is valid. b:chuckle

angellicdeity

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Nah, it just gets more difficult to calculate, lol...

Genie skills do not stack with demon attack speed buffs, but a sage can attack at nearly the same rate at 100% proc with them.

It just becomes stupidly pointless to calculate it out; I purposely did not calculate percentage occurrences or the effect of sparks, chi, etc.

Thats still not a valid comparison.


Demons have Relentless too.


Combined with quickshot they can have a permanent attack boost without cooldown issues. Remember - your genie needs to sacrifice energy recovery to even come close to matching the 30% attack rate increase of the Demon Spark and Demon Quickshot.



Its not that it becomes hard to calculate, in fact you just apply introductory statistics.


The fact of the matter is - Sage looks better when you dont need to factor in what makes a Demon a Demon.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear

I think its fine if you want to limit the study to the 3 basic skills: Frost Arrow, Blazing Arrow, and Take Aim. However, you seemed to have neglected the Triple Spark.

I'm not sure how this study can be valid without looking at Triple Spark effects.

Even without the nice Quickshot, Stunning Arrow, and Sharptooth Arrow, archers can still use the Take Aim trick to increase chi significantly against a boss. This allows the archer to spark much more frequently. While Sage archers will have more damage per attack, Demon Archers will have more damage per second during those 15 seconds of Sparking.

I'd rather see that basic study, as many archers are making their Sage / Demon decision wholly on the 3 easy-to-acquire skills and the Triple Spark. I think that is more important than a study with hard-to-acquire skills.

I for one was going to go Sage for 88.75 levels. This was due the fact that I did not believe I would be able to acquire any skill beyond the basic 3. It was only the opportunity presented with the Anniversary Packs that I decided to try for Demon Quickshot.

XxLady_XelxX - Dreamweaver

...I'm never stepping foot into an Archer topic again. My brain just exploded.

And that's coming from a Cleric who doesn't mind number crunching. b:faint

Alacol - Sanctuary

LloydAsplund - Sanctuary wrote: »

The archer forums have so much math..

Other forums:
veno- nix is the best! i solo everything.
barb - i has hp?
wizard - LA or arcane? omg we so weak.
BM - what weapon is best????
cleric - Q_Q my mp charm

Devoted's post, changed to your liking?

Transcend - Lost City

You guys are crazy, and this overanalysis has been rendered invalid by many of the previous posters.

Demon wins by default.

Waterboy - Lost City

demon quickshot makes sage go T_T

Telarith - Sanctuary

Two things that change how much better sage passive's damage over demon benefits:

1.) Party buffs for physical damage, weapon procs, and other physical attack/weapon damage adds. Because these will add a set amount regardless of celestial path, it will lower the over-all damage boost % over demon.

2.) Sparked state. When you celestial spark, you are about doubling (for ease of comparing) how much damage you're doing. Since spark is unaffected by masteries, it would basically cut the true damage boost % of the mastery in half.

Would be more difficult to include those in the analysis, but those both do change any comparison being made between them.

EDIT: To see Sage's damage over demon paths, you take same stats and divide sage modifier by demon modifier from damage formula. Just using 3 per level for ease, it ends up being roughly 4% more damage if sage mastery is taken, vs. going demon. That is the true damage boost.

The more stuff you toss on, i.e. damage buffs from wiz and barb, procs from weapon, any sparking done, the less effect that sage boost has again. That extra 15% just doesn't have as large an effect on the larger over-all number. Spark doubling your damage alone would mean that 4% drops to 2%, since they both are getting the same exact boost. More adds means smaller effect of the 15% from sage mastery, since it is diluted.

Trying to avoid using any math in all that, not sure if it makes it more clear or confusing without it though. Also, if there is a pure dex archer, sage mastery will of course have less than 4% as well. Dex stat used is 300 dex, from both level and likely gear adds by lvl 92 making that pretty easy to have.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Waterboy - Lost City wrote: »

demon quickshot makes sage go T_T

Actually... I can already attack with a sustained rate of 3 shots every 3.5 seconds. And that has been my consistent rate and not my peak rate and I obviously am not using demon quickshot.

And, I think I can figure out how I can continue to be doing something like this, even after I go sage.

That said, I do not understand Telarith's posts.

angellicdeity

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Actually... I can already attack with a sustained rate of 3 shots every 3.5 seconds. And that has been my consistent rate and not my peak rate and I obviously am not using demon quickshot.

You dont seem to get the fact...


Demons can do this too.


As I posted earlier, a Demon can achieve 1 shot per second with Demon Quick Shot WITH a crossbow not factoring in any gear bonuses.



If a demon were to have the same gear as you they'd be firing at the same rate as you consitently (0.8571 attacks/second), and with a demon quickshot bonus they'd achieve 1.115 attacks/second - although bows are capped at 1.



People who argue for sage seem to think they'll have gears that Demon Archers wont....

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Actually... I can already attack with a sustained rate of 3 shots every 3.5 seconds. And that has been my consistent rate and not my peak rate and I obviously am not using demon quickshot.

And, I think I can figure out how I can continue to be doing something like this, even after I go sage.

Do you plan on obtaining any other skills beyond the basic three? I think that is the biggest factor of whether or not you want Demon vs. Sage.

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

That said, I do not understand Telarith's posts.

It was hard to understand, but if I understand her correctly, I think she is right.

I think this is what she is saying: basically, your total damage output can be categorized as follows:

Damage per Hit = (Weapon Damage) x (FactorA + FactorB + FactorC + ...)

One of those factors is Blazing Arrow, and another factor is Bow Mastery. For both of these, Sage is better.

However, when you start adding in more and more factors, such as Sparks and Buffs from other classes, you start to notice that each individual factor gets less and less important when compared to the other version. So, if we say Blazing Arrow is FactorA, then yes, Sage is better. But if you add all those other factors together, including buffs from other classes, then that difference due to Blazing Arrow becomes less and less noticeable.

Thus, what Telarith is saying is that your Damage per Hit sort of converges between Demon and Sage when you start adding in tons of bonuses to damage. Obviously they will not be equal, but the difference will become less and less noticeable.

Most Demon archers agree with this, though they didn't phrase it this way. So what it comes down to then is not the Damage Per Hit, but the Attacks Per Second. If you increase your attack rate significantly (which Demon does), then you dole out a lot more damage.

Even without Quickshot, Demon archers are faster b/c of the Triple Spark. During those 15 seconds, more attacks get off. This implies (1) more attacks per second, and (2) you can reach the next opportunity to spark more quickly.

Until I see a systematic study, I'm not going to say that Demon archers deal more damage using only Triple Spark and the 3 basic skills. However, with both sides obtaining all the nicer skills, I think Demon wins out.

angellicdeity

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Until I see a systematic study, I'm not going to say that Demon archers deal more damage using only Triple Spark and the 3 basic skills. However, with both sides obtaining all the nicer skills, I think Demon wins out.

None of the studies presented thus far are an accurate comparison of a Sage versus a Demon.

Primarily due to the fact:

Archers are a class primarily based on chance.



(1): Chance to critical
(2): Chance to Activate Quickshot (Demon)


etc.


Therefore a proper study would present the conclusion that

One class has a higher probability of dealing more damage over time than the other.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

angellicdeity wrote: »

As I posted earlier, a Demon can achieve 1 shot per second with Demon Quick Shot WITH a crossbow not factoring in any gear bonuses.

But your attack rate is a burst attack rage, and mine is a sustained attack rate, if you want to compare them you should be comparing our total damage in one minute or something like that. But mine will not be so good right now, because I have a lower level weapon.

Meanwhile, in some battles your interval between attacks is irrelevant. Like, for example, sometimes you need to be doing magical damage.

angellicdeity wrote: »

If a demon were to have the same gear as you they'd be firing at the same rate as you consitently (0.8571 attacks/second), and with a demon quickshot bonus they'd achieve 1.115 attacks/second - although bows are capped at 1.

But my gear is not that good. And, my point was that these numbers are being used misleadingly, because they come from comparisons are based on an inadequate understanding of our possibilities. (But I am not prepared to enumerate all of our possibilities.)

angellicdeity wrote: »

People who argue for sage seem to think they'll have gears that Demon Archers wont....

O.o

I do not think I presented any argument for sage, here. I think I was presenting a non-argument.

That said, if I have an idea of the gears I would pick for a sage archer and I also have an idea of the gears I would pick for a demon archer, and they are different kinds of gears because I would be dealing with different strengths and weaknesses.

Legerity - Sanctuary

For Elena:

I guess a rough study for the spark situation would be to say:

In 15 seconds, a Sage can fire with 1.30s interval 11.54 shots = 55chi.

In 15 seconds, a Demon can fire with the same interval 14.29 shots = 70 chi.

Fastest way to build chi is TA/Serrated at 2.2seconds (0.6+1.6) for 30 chi (assuming no server/connection lag).

Since both Archers can do this, then both will get 30 chi every 2.2seconds (realistically will be higher than 2.2). Triple spark uses 300chi.

A full round of spark = 18seconds meaning if we start both on a triple spark:

At 0s,
Sage has 350chi
Demon has 300chi

At 18s,
Sage after the spark will have 105chi
Demon will have 70chi.

Sage can use their next spark when they acquire 195 more chi. (195/30) = 6.5 "rounds" of TA/SA spam. (6 rounds TA/SA + TA)

At 18+((6*2.2)+0.6)s,
Sage has 0 chi
Demon will be 35 chi behind.

At 31.8+((1*2.2)+0.6)s,
Sage is 2.8s into spark animation = 0chi
Demon can spark and now with 10chi.

At 34.8s,
Sage can start attacking in spark = 0chi
Demon is 0.2s into spark animation = 10chi

At 34.8+15s,
Sage has 55chi.
Demon has been in spark 15-2.8s = 12.2s = 11.61shots = 10+55chi

At 49.8+2.8s, 52.6s,
Sage has 55chi+(1 round TA+SA)+TA = 55+45 = 100chi
Demon finished spark and is now on 10+70chi = 80chi

At this point, I think the Demon Archer cannot catch up in terms of triple sparking because of the inherent 50chi every minute. Just know that every time Demons spark, depending on interval, in my case I win out with 3 more additional shots = 15chi.

If a Demon could spark more than 3 times in a minute (which is not very realistic) then they could catch up to the Sage spark rate.

Summary?
Sages spark slightly more often. Demons might spark 3 times in 2 minutes, but the Sage will, using my interval be 100-45chi ahead. Give them 11 minutes and they get an additional Sage spark.

Edit:
Actually, I forgot to take into account the 1 second cast of the chi skill which means an extra 15chi for demons every minute. So if both Archers go crazy on chi building, a Demon could Triple spark ~9 times in 4 minutes.

In 4 minutes:
Sage: 4*50chi = 200chi
Demon: 9*3hits = 9*15chi = 135chi +4seconds which is b/w 45-60chi

This means if we take it to that extreme, the rate at which both parties spark is almost similar BUT I have yet to see someone spam TA/SA combo let alone every 2.2seconds (and with the introduction of lag, Sage gets further ahead in chi).

That said, Sages get a slight advantage if we only use the readily available skills upon ascension. No one has denied this.

***this brief/rough "study" in no way incorporates DPS in detail as I only looked at the frequency of sparking between both parties.

Edit 2: Ah ****, was a bit slack and forgot SA had a cooldown of 8 seconds. b:chuckle

Shao_on_Fire - Heavens Tear

Firstoff, I would like to thank the Archers [and others] who have clearly devoted several hours of work to figuring out exactly how our awesome class works- my hat is off to each of you. As a bit of a nerd myself [no offense intended] I enjoy reading statistical analysis of the class I so dearly love.
I think, when you break the math down this far, most players will get fuzzy-headed and lost. Again, I love it- but most "casual" players aren't going to read beyond the first 8 posts in this thread.

That said... I was having a conversation with someone very similar to this just the other day. He and I handed factiods and figures back and forth, comparing different equipments, etc.

The fact is, "endgame" Archers' benefits are largely decided by the player. Personally, I decided to go Demon, because it's my personal belief that Archers are designed to crit and crit and crit, and BMs[NOT Archers]were designed to deal significant damage on a less variable scale- and by variable, I mean the art of guessing if you're going to crit the next shot or not. They simply deal damage. We simply deal MASS damage.

That was it for me. Sure, a friend of mine is a 93 Sage Archer, and has a 33% Crit rate. Good for him. But if he had built his character the same way and gone Demon, he'd have[at minimum] 35%; and this is the arguement he and I continue to have.

The bottom line is, much like which bow/xbow/sling is better, which chestplate is better, should I go legendary, TT, or both, is the Helmet of Aqua truely good for an archer, etc... it comes down to personally, what you find more beneficial to your playstyle.

... Oh, and the fact that demons are cool b:chuckle

angellicdeity

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

But your attack rate is a burst attack rage, and mine is a sustained attack rate, if you want to compare them you should be comparing our total damage in one minute or something like that. But mine will not be so good right now, because I have a lower level weapon.

You still failed to grasp the fact that demons can have that sustained rate by simply having your gear.

Its not exclusive to sage. The Burst Rate from quickshot is the icing on top of that sustained rate.


Again you need to pick a sufficient time sample. But if you really want to do the comparisons over a 1 minute duration then visit my first post in this thread.

Assuming a demon archer has 60 seconds then a demon archer has at least 8, in the best case 10 chances to activate quickshot.

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Meanwhile, in some battles your interval between attacks is irrelevant. Like, for example, sometimes you need to be doing magical damage.

It depends. In PvP yes magic attacks can be preferred against some classes (Demons thundershock and lightning strike are winners for their chance to silence, and never missing attribute.)

However, in PvE versus bosses, and monsters - you rarely should be using your lightning skills. Channel + Cast time attributes to at least 1 shot missed. You can deal double the damage doing regular shots than skills.

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

But my gear is not that good. And, my point was that these numbers are being used misleadingly, because they come from comparisons are based on an inadequate understanding of our possibilities. (But I am not prepared to enumerate all of our possibilities.)
.

It doesn't have to be good.

You need to understand that when you compare Demon and Sage you should assume the same conditions. The only thing allowed to vary are the skill differences.


Otherwise you create this "wishy washy" idea of "its good if you do things a certain way." We want an objective comparison.


In an Objective comparison you compare ONLY what is truely different about these two classes - and you'll see that the number of things you have to consider are very small.

Transcend - Lost City

In summation, once again considering all things equal except available skills:

Sage is optimum for ginding (sustained long term dmg)
Demon is optimum for pvp (fastest atk rates + massive crits for short periods of time)

Let's end the sage vs demon threads here

truekossy

**** choosing one or the other.

Go Demon, then use your superior PvP skillz to kill a sage and take their fairy. Then you'll be BOTH sage and Demon and no longer have to worry about pett problems like which path to take. b:victory

Legerity - Sanctuary

truekossy wrote: »

**** choosing one or the other.

Go Demon, then use your superior PvP skillz to kill a sage and take their fairy. Then you'll be BOTH sage and Demon and no longer have to worry about pett problems like which path to take. b:victory

I'm still pathless. b:victory