Sage vs Demon - The Deciding Factor

XxLady_XelxX - Dreamweaver

(NOTE: This is NOT a discussion about which path is better. If you're gonna flame someone for their decision, please take the time to back-space out of this topic now. Thank you in advance for your cooperation. ^_^)

Upon reaching the personal milestone of 85 (so as to participate in Rebirths with the highest possible amount of level-based statistics possible, thus being able to effectively farm more Spirit for Level 11 skills...maybe), I decided to take a good long look at the choices I had decided upon many levels ago.

Back then, I had my heart set on Demon alignment...primarily because some of the skills looked so awesome. And of course...I knew what I was talking about when Demon Skill X was CLEARLY better than Sage Skill X, and that made all the difference while I was still level 65.

...Even if I still didn't know where to grind yet...but anyways.

Long story short; with a bunch more experience under my belt, and a chance to look over the skills on both sides again and again recently, I find myself coming to that final crossroads and feeling completely torn. Both sides have capabilities that seem VERY appealing to me...so I was wondering how other Clerics were handling their decisions. What is, was, or perhaps will be that final boost that makes/made that final decision for you?

In other words, without mentioning what side you chose, what was your mindset...or what do you anticipate your mindset to be...when you finally hit 89 and you're floating over 1k streams getting ready to cement you decision?

Ninnuam - Sanctuary

For me, sage was a no brainer.

1)Ironheart. Heals 10% more than the demon version.
2)Wellspring. Ever had a DD drop dead when you were like a split second from finishing channeling wellspring? Been known to happen Sage chanelling reduction helps a wee bit.
3)Plume shot. 800 more damage ftw.
4)Metal mastery. Consistent damage > 2% crit imho
5)Vanguard spirit. 10 seconds really isn't a lot of time, but you can easily drop it on the tank in between ironheart spams if he's having trouble tanking. Demon stream does the same thing, but costs a whole lot more mana and takes forever to cast, on top of messing up the ironheart stacks.
6)Spark. I like the damage reducion effect more than faster channeling demon gives.
7)Chi gain skill.

On the other hand, demon has some very nice perks too. For one, demon cyclone wins hands down. Weild thunder's 30% metal reduction isn't as good as it sounds thoughm although still better than sage's chance of gaining chi. Spirits gift perk is nice. Faster revive can be handy, although double range the sage gives can be equally as useful.

Meh idk, both are good and you really can't go wrong with either one. Comes down to your playstyle I guess. I you prefer to pew pew, demon may be better. If you're into supporting and staying alive yourself, you can't go wrong with sage. If you like both, flip a coin or something

Nosgoth - Dreamweaver

I think the choice depends. Look first the character build, this is the most important factor to made the choice.

I like VIT cleric, so sage will be my choice.

Angel__sora - Sanctuary

I'm going Sage for the fairy. b:cute

Nelae - Heavens Tear

For me, my mindset is attack, being able to kill fast and not be delayed by down fall of our skills and yet be fully able to preform cleric duties (yes demon).

Actually it wasn't a easy choice seeing skill description of both sides.
But as mentioned my play style determined it. Not to say my PvP exp (which is still lacking) was crying it.

Dont compare me with FAC's, cause i am not <.<, demon can still heal well.

Stream of Rejuvenation - Demon version temporarily grants the target an additional 100% bonus to equipment's physical defense

Chromatic Healing Beam - Demon version recovers an extra 600 HP. (yes sage has greater range, but this heals better)

Purify - Demon version does not consume Chi when cast. (not needing chi is a major bonus in some situations)

Ironheart Blessing - Demon version also recovers 300 MP over 15 seconds. (now tanks have no excuse not to spam aggro skills)

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

It's difficult for me since demon obviously caters more to pvp, and at this point I'm just not sure if I'll ever care to. I've never been big on pvp but I'm more worried about if I change my mind, and not knowing if it's possible to move from sage to demon or vice versa (sooner rather than later). That being said, I have a barb for tanking, I have a veno with a herc (for tanking too, 90% of what barbs can, just to throw out some meaningless arbitrary percentage) and nix for tanking/damage dealing, also made a wizzie, so at this point my cleric's first goal is support, survivability, then damage. So far Sage looks like it's better for this goal. My cleric already hits like a brick wall, and being arcane I don't think it would be a good idea to go over the top in damage when I already do enough unless I were to do pvp (or tw) with my cleric.

Edit: One thing I'm glad about is I don't have to make this decision right now (gonna hit 85 in the next few days and then the next 4 will take a while) as I'm way too back-and-forth on the issue atm.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

XxLady_XelxX - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In other words, without mentioning what side you chose, what was your mindset...or what do you anticipate your mindset to be...when you finally hit 89 and you're floating over 1k streams getting ready to cement you decision?

My mindset was balance between offense and defense.

I dont want to sound arrogant or anything but ill be blunt. Being pure mag, TT100, 19% crit as a cleric, my KNOW my dmg is high. And recently i discovered i pretty much hit the same amount with my wield thunder vs their demon WT.

But frankly if i cant survive more than a couple of hits in endgame, then all that dmg can be said goodbye. Ill snip my reasons from Ninnuams post,
1)Ironheart. Heals 10% more than the demon version.
-i thought this was amazing once i got it. Not only for my squad but for my solo too. Its not everytime you get to stack a 5-6k+ healing spell.

4)Metal mastery. sage 25% dmg damage vs demon 2% crit
-since crit does not always procure, and 25% dmg is constant.

5)Vanguard spirit.
-10 seconds 100% pdef spam ftw

6)Spark.
-gives me more time to kill things cause i get attacked for less. If im a cleric and my HP is pretty low, then i want my last min. gamble to be on something definite. Meaning sage spark can actually save me if the enemy crits, whereas demon spark is 'who gets the faster and lucky crit in first'

CHI
-50 free chi per min. YAY

Teny - Heavens Tear

Demon boils down to higher damage/PvP oriented scenarios. Also about **** your MP and chi for the most part.

Sage tends to focus on preserving chi and conserving mp/sparks in most scenarios.

The above two statements hold true for any class, honestly.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Teny - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Demon boils down to higher damage/PvP oriented scenarios. Also about **** your MP and chi for the most part.

Sage tends to focus on preserving chi and conserving mp/sparks in most scenarios.

The above two statements hold true for any class, honestly.

Isnt it the other way around dependin on certain skills?

Ahira - Lost City

Generally demon is for more offensive EP's and sage more defensive.

Demon Spirits gift buff +150% magic for 10 seconds. Useful in both offensive pvp/pve and also support. A quick self buff before healing will give you heals significantly stronger than sage even including their 10% bonus.

Demon Stream of rejuvenation- now more viable heal to use in practice because of the 100% phys defence bonus.

Demon has faster rez and zero chi purify- both useful in pvp and support.

Stong offence with wield thunder metal debuff and silent seal with no reduction in magic attack.

For metal mastery there shouldnt really be much difference if you average out the damage. Depends on your preference really- I tend to like +crit which makes more of a difference in pvp.

I do like sage vanguard spirit and the longer seals though QQ

Ninnuam - Sanctuary

Ahira - Lost City wrote: »

I do like sage vanguard spirit and the longer seals though QQ

You kidding me? Can't believe I forgot about this one.
Demon Silent and Chromatic are teh secks. I don't even want to waste the cash on sage ones >.>

Kott - Sanctuary

Sage had a cute fairy b:cute No more questions asked from me.


Besides that:
1. As mentioend before ironheart.
2. 40m rez. I prefer prolonged range rather than faster channeling. Ever had a situation when your team mates died in the middle of mobs & your range doesnt reach?
3.Vanguard as stated before.
4. Chi tech I prefer to have sparks for bb in emergency rather than stealing chi
5. Mgk shell buff that give -20 chan. Who needs demon spark again? o.O
6. +800 plume shot b:bye squishies
7. My plume shell is 85% phys dmg reduction now
8. My silent seal is longer for a bit. I'm not much of a DD to use the no dmg reduction for demon, but sage works nicely to give me extra time to get away.
9. 5% extra metal dmg with metal mastery, also ad the 15% more metal dmg from thunderball(I know that skill is considered useless lol, but it's fun once in a while) + if you also debuf... that's gona hurt... I don't like crits =_= too random

Sage Tempest, siren & thunder are **** though

Zuyue - Sanctuary

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

My mindset was balance between offense and defense.

I dont want to sound arrogant or anything but ill be blunt. Being pure mag, TT100, 19% crit as a cleric, my KNOW my dmg is high. And recently i discovered i pretty much hit the same amount with my wield thunder vs their demon WT.

But frankly if i cant survive more than a couple of hits in endgame, then all that dmg can be said goodbye. Ill snip my reasons from Ninnuams post,
1)Ironheart. Heals 10% more than the demon version.
-i thought this was amazing once i got it. Not only for my squad but for my solo too. Its not everytime you get to stack a 5-6k+ healing spell.

4)Metal mastery. sage 25% dmg damage vs demon 2% crit
-since crit does not always procure, and 25% dmg is constant.

5)Vanguard spirit.
-10 seconds 100% pdef spam ftw

6)Spark.
-gives me more time to kill things cause i get attacked for less. If im a cleric and my HP is pretty low, then i want my last min. gamble to be on something definite. Meaning sage spark can actually save me if the enemy crits, whereas demon spark is 'who gets the faster and lucky crit in first'

CHI
-50 free chi per min. YAY

Isn't she so cute I was the one to tell her this and most ppl i pk against in sanctuary will prove this right, as she said i dont have gears she has i'm a coin player not a RL money player but i hit as hard as her RL money gear .(or maybe she gets better coins then me for her gear,i never asked) ^^
I personally believe demon was for pvp/dmg oriented as sage was more for healing/survival ^^ no hard feelings to the pk sage clerics tho And by far the demon fairy looks better cause it so noticable as the sage 3rd tier fairy looks like the white genie u can purchase at lvl1 unless u give a VERY close look

Zuyue - Sanctuary

Also off of that topic demon has many advantages....

1) Demon WT as mentioned by her hits very hard and not only hits hard but adds a debuff of -30% metal resistance for your next cyclones/tempest (depending on the target) and respectfully stacks with elemental seal that makes u do 4-5k hits on arcane with -60% resist with demon tempest if played right

2)Demon Ironheart is a saver for barbs with the expensive charms now or pretty much any class without mp charm u decide to cast on. Mostly barbs

3)Guardian seal is yet another mp recovery skill u can cast.

4) Demon plum shell takes half the chi as sage and u MUST TRUST me and most pkers will agree that is a savior in itself.

5)With Demon WT debuff and cyclone (demon) 600 more dmg... you have become competitive to HA BM's/barbs that use there armeggedon badly.

6)Demon Spark of course if the hits skills dont shine for you um spark should

7) Demon tempest has a 25% chance freeze as a cleric (sage) has a chance to save spark and also sage cleric WT gives some extra chi. I personally dont think a cleric (sage) or even demon should be dependent on chi in any situation as we are not a chi class.(i cant tell u how many BM's i have killed in 1 shot just from 9-11k crit tempest with no debuffs, nothing like a stack of players to cast on to make your 10% crit count to at least 1-2 of them Cloud Eruption helps me prep for battle/full sparks i also have bramble rage for a extra spell to prevent me fire a usless plum shoot at a HA But during a fight i not worried about chi but how fast i kill my opponent before shell wears and if i cant kill in that time 15 less chi to cast plum shell helps alot if your casting sleep/silent seal as u should be

List goes on

8) demon channel revive is perfect for getting your cat barb up before its cat takes to much dmg....

Demon=pk/tw Sage=survival/heal

If u need anymore proof just go look at the skills yourself its pretty obvious choose.... depends on play style u like

Bagoly_ - Sanctuary

Some noobish question: b:surrender

1.) Demon Ironheart and Celestial Guardian's Seal - the mp recovery effect stacks? (Secondary question: same icon for the two skills or different?)

2.) Demon Spirit's Gift - stacks with spark eruption or not?

3.) Demon Wield Thunder - the metal resistance debuff applies to the damage of the WT itself, or just to the following spells?

Zuyue - Sanctuary

Bagoly_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Some noobish question: b:surrender

1.) Demon Ironheart and Celestial Guardian's Seal - the mp recovery effect stacks? (Secondary question: same icon for the two skills or different?)

2.) Demon Spirit's Gift - stacks with spark eruption or not?

3.) Demon Wield Thunder - the metal resistance debuff applies to the damage of the WT itself, or just to the following spells?

not as noobish as u think i can say that WT next cast does take effect of -30% metal debuff then resets to to look like its not there (then needs be recast).... also overwrites archer metal debuff or cancels it out(this i dont know for sure) the first 2 i have no idea tho as i dont have those skills yet (demon IH on my server is 30m bid 50m buyout and i have yet to see spirit gift) so i can't help with those.

Ninnuam - Sanctuary

Bagoly_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Some noobish question: b:surrender

1.) Demon Ironheart and Celestial Guardian's Seal - the mp recovery effect stacks? (Secondary question: same icon for the two skills or different?)

Nope, they don't stack with each other or anything else for that matter. They just give you that white/blue yin yang looking buff. Like the one you'd get from a concentrate orb or the mana aura in rebirth.

2.) Demon Spirit's Gift - stacks with spark eruption or not?

Nope. Once again same looking buffs never stack. Demon spirits gift/spark/attack aura in rebirth/Djinn buffs from 3-x overwrite one another.

3.) Demon Wield Thunder - the metal resistance debuff applies to the damage of the WT itself, or just to the following spells?[/QUOTE]

Zuzu answered this one

Bagoly_ - Sanctuary

Thanks for the answers! b:thanks

Istilah - Sanctuary

Ahira - Lost City wrote: »

Demon Spirits gift buff +150% magic for 10 seconds. Useful in both offensive pvp/pve and also support. A quick self buff before healing will give you heals significantly stronger than sage even including their 10% bonus.

But a single spark erruption would give you +200% magic, which would stack with spirits gift for +270% magic attack?

Ninnuam - Sanctuary

Istilah - Sanctuary wrote: »

But a single spark erruption would give you +200% magic, which would stack with spirits gift for +270% magic attack?

No. One would overwrite the other.

Aadi - Lost City

Istilah - Sanctuary wrote: »

But a single spark erruption would give you +200% magic, which would stack with spirits gift for +270% magic attack?

Ninnuam - Sanctuary wrote: »

Nope. Once again same looking buffs never stack. Demon spirits gift/spark/attack aura in rebirth/Djinn buffs from 3-x overwrite one another.

There you go b:victory

Ahira - Lost City

Ninnuam - Sanctuary wrote: »

You kidding me? Can't believe I forgot about this one.
Demon Silent and Chromatic are teh secks. I don't even want to waste the cash on sage ones >.>

No you misunderstood- I prefer those demon seals like i said in my first post. I just think the extra durations on the sage versions can be appealing.

Sage vanguard is good though, but definitely prefer the magic attack bonus with spirits gift because its so much more flexible in uses.

Inias - Heavens Tear

someone told me that he got wood mastery (similar to metal mastery) and the 2 % crit feels like it's 10 % crit ~about it's not my words but his (i don't have my mastery yet) and the guy that told me knows his sh*t so , i think demon mastery is definetly as good as the sage one


i especially went demon for the
stream, wield thunder,
cyclone (stronger mag attacks )
as sage plume shot is faster casting so dmg output comes down to about same dmg demon is a bit less i think

purify , no chi needed FTW

spirit's gift , 150% extra dmg , no explination needed on this one

revive for TW

and yeah , at first i thought sage s*cks but now that more ppl got the sage and demon and there's more info on em now , sage and demon is definetly both as good

ValkyrieLind - Sanctuary

this might be a little to early to decide but im goin to sage(not sure of the reason but after reading the posts still goin to sage)...seein the earlier posts said that depends on ur skills and stats maybe...i hav very high mag jus enuff str for equips and goin to cap vit at 50 and for skills i got nearly all the skill in my lvls expect not all are max and i didnt get the debuff...am i still able to be a sage cleric with this kind of stats and skills??

Rawthorne - Heavens Tear

A few other factors that some have not mentioned yet that to me makes it seem everyday that I chose the right path of sage (I was like the 1st/2nd on ht):
1. Sage wt- Sage version has a 50% chance to gain addional 30 Chi on a successful hit.
2. Chi gain vs chi siphon always wins hands down
3. People may believe that demons are better pvp then sages but look at a few things at our disposal such as longer sleep (gonna use that alot in pvp), stronger IH/faster wellspring (gonna always be using those in pvp), possibility of tempest only 1 spark (beautifull in say tw if it's that much sooner you can use tempest).
4. Hmm obviously its much easier for us to gain chi so alot more sparks/tempests (depending on which you prefer) then demons = higher damage overall and here's the best part...LESS mana usage (thus less mana pots/charm usage) since we can spark much more often then demons.
5. Consistent damage of 5% more metal damage vs the unpredictability of 2% crits for metal mastery sage vs demon.

There's other things but most have been posted already....it's funny when I went sage everyone was like wtf you doing that for and now I hear clerics questioning others when they say they are gonna go demon....

Lenyel - Harshlands

Demon.


Demon Spark: b:dirty

Demon Cyclone: 600 damage > improved slow

Demon Plume Shot: channelling reduction > extra damages (plume shot isnt strong as cyclone anyways because of metal mastery, and in endgame, there aren't classes really weak to Physical as before, when arcane users were sharding armor with citrines. Better to spam it decently than a 600 extra damages that would be decreased like hell from pvp reduction/chard p.def reductions)

Demon IronHeart: Healing MP > 10% extra Healing

Demon WellSpring: not awesome like Sage's, but more chi can always be useful (ok, ok, sage is a way better xD)

Demon Revive: just great. But yes, with Sage one you can res ppl in archosaur while you are in Plume xD but i prefer faster channelling :P

Demon Spirits Gift: awww just cool. I just want to discover if stacks with sparks or not. Because it could be done an awesome combo for after-sleeping in 1v1.

Demon RegenBuff: i dont wanna spell its name properly. I can regen mana b:dirty i hope it stacks :P

Other skills aren't that nice, but still good. Like faster cooldown for razor feathers, no chi consumption for purify, less chi consumption for plume shell.

I don't talk about 99 skills cause i dont really believe i will never hit 99. But Demon Wield Thunder.... That would just be the best skill ever.

What could happen if you could afford something like Demon Spark-> Demon WT-> Spark apoth-> Demon Tempest? b:dirtyb:dirty (obviously with debuff/extreme poison)...

ewingoil

I see more TW Clerics are Demon on my server.

Ahira - Lost City

Rawthorne - Heavens Tear wrote: »

3. People may believe that demons are better pvp then sages but look at a few things at our disposal such as longer sleep (gonna use that alot in pvp), stronger IH/faster wellspring (gonna always be using those in pvp), possibility of tempest only 1 spark (beautifull in say tw if it's that much sooner you can use tempest).
4. Hmm obviously its much easier for us to gain chi so alot more sparks/tempests (depending on which you prefer) then demons = higher damage overall and here's the best part...LESS mana usage (thus less mana pots/charm usage) since we can spark much more often then demons.
5. Consistent damage of 5% more metal damage vs the unpredictability of 2% crits for metal mastery sage vs demon.

Dont see how a slightly longer sleep makes sages better at pvp- unless you're talking about ninja-style running away pvp! b:chuckle
Tempest will still need 2 sparks to cast but theres a chance it will only use 1 when you cast it.
Wield thunder is the only regularly used attacking skill that has a chance to gain a bit more chi- so in actual fact you'll still basically be sparking pretty much side by side with demon clerics because of their slightly faster plume/cyclone combo. Sage shouldnt really have a higher comparable damage because of Demon wield thunders metal debuff, as apart from plume shot your main attacks are metal based.
In support demon wellspring has +chi spark/mana saving there.
+5% metal damage wont make much impression in pvp (especially in comparison the metal debuff) whereas +2% crit does. In terms of DD'ing I believe +2% crit> +5% metal damage if averaged out.

Ahira - Lost City

Lenyel - Harshlands wrote: »

I don't talk about 99 skills cause i dont really believe i will never hit 99. But Demon Wield Thunder.... That would just be the best skill ever.

What could happen if you could afford something like Demon Spark-> Demon WT-> Spark apoth-> Demon Tempest? b:dirtyb:dirty (obviously with debuff/extreme poison)...

I have demon wield thunder but dont have to coin to learn it yet! -____-'

b:dirtycombo.....

Slake - Lost City

For anyone reading this that hasn't made up their mind yet. Think about the arguements that both sides usually present in this sort of debate, they list the skills that in their opinion is good for their cultivation path and mostly ignore the ones that aren't. I personally believe that there is no answer to which is better, if you want to do everything that the game offers its a 50/50 toss up between which is better. If you like specific skills for specific reasons you might go one way or the other, if not.. flip a coin. :P

As for me? I went sage, I don't regret it but I could have just as easily picked demon. tbh I think I ended up going with the path I choose because the fairy that looks less like food

Oh yeah, and cause it made me the first sage player in my guild

Lenyel - Harshlands

Ahira - Lost City wrote: »

I have demon wield thunder but dont have to coin to learn it yet! -____-'

b:dirtycombo.....

b:dirtyb:dirtyb:dirty

What's the secret to reach 99 without go crazy?