Drunken_Chu's Fist BM guide

maocchi

Lucifer - Dreamweaver wrote: »

well it looks really good, its just one thing about these BM guids that puzzles me.... why people say oceans edge is worthless to lvl. its one of the BM's best moves and does GOOD damage even for fist users and slows down player witch can prevent an Archer from kiting in PvP along with Wizards and Clerics...in my opinion oceans edge is one of the best moves a BM has...

Well to my experience, in the time it takes to channel Ocean's Edge, you could have thrown in a couple of punches which would have dealt more damage. As for slowing down effect, Fissure works better AND it's an AoE so I find it better to use that rather than Ocean's Edge.

sedzejevec

Are fist bms any good for pure PvE?

Lucifer - Dreamweaver

the channeling isnt really long and it does good damage in a short time i doubt u can through fists quick enough with the same damage that u can simply use an oceans edge, plus in PvP players pk at orchid temple and AoEing wouldnt be a smart thing unless u like getting ganked by a bunch of players who are pissed u are AoEing them.....still i think Oceans Edge is better than Fissure against one Target and Maxed it does Awesome Damage and has 95% chance to slow the enemy Down, it would be a VERY smart thing to Max Oceans Edge

Telarith - Sanctuary

Lucifer - Dreamweaver wrote: »

the channeling isnt really long and it does good damage in a short time i doubt u can through fists quick enough with the same damage that u can simply use an oceans edge, plus in PvP players pk at orchid temple and AoEing wouldnt be a smart thing unless u like getting ganked by a bunch of players who are pissed u are AoEing them.....still i think Oceans Edge is better than Fissure against one Target and Maxed it does Awesome Damage and has 95% chance to slow the enemy Down, it would be a VERY smart thing to Max Oceans Edge

Are you an axe BM or something? I thought BMs nowadays had gotten past their ignorance of fists potential. 1 Oceans Edge dealing as much damage as fists even when they aren't sparked? Only if it's a really terrible BM.

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver

Lucifer - Dreamweaver wrote: »

the channeling isnt really long and it does good damage in a short time i doubt u can through fists quick enough with the same damage that u can simply use an oceans edge, plus in PvP players pk at orchid temple and AoEing wouldnt be a smart thing unless u like getting ganked by a bunch of players who are pissed u are AoEing them.....still i think Oceans Edge is better than Fissure against one Target and Maxed it does Awesome Damage and has 95% chance to slow the enemy Down, it would be a VERY smart thing to Max Oceans Edge

Look, what OE really does is to allow you to catch up to them, once you do, you still need ways to stop them from moving. Even slowly, people moving isn't going to help because you won't be able to hit them constantly. The fact of being melee is that you have to be right next to them to do constant damage, even if one step back would cut your attacks or DPS by a lot. The goal of OE is so that you can catch up to them then stun, which you can do with sprints anyways. OE isn't going to stop kitting at all and with everybody and their mothers having Holy Path, your best bet is to stun lock. Slow is more ideal for... kitters and not... kittees in that the slower they are, the more time you have to attack before they reach you. It's not the same for melee where if they are moving, slowing them isn't going to increase your damage since they are already out of your rage of attack with the fist step.

As for AoE and OT lol that's only DW. It's not the case on other servers. People there expect BM to AoE and knows to stay out of the way if they didn't want to get hit. Now HF+Bramble is a different issue.

Lucifer - Dreamweaver

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Are you an axe BM or something? I thought BMs nowadays had gotten past their ignorance of fists potential. 1 Oceans Edge dealing as much damage as fists even when they aren't sparked? Only if it's a really terrible BM.

not really>.>

doskox

Awsome guide rly helped out a new player decide on a weapon path but can someone tell me if and where can i get some good fists soon im lvl 23 atm(goes to grind cuzz of shame..)?

ClericNico - Dreamweaver

Yay, it's Chu, one of the very very few non-fail fist bm's i've ever seen. b:victory

Guide looks good Chu.

Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver

@doskox sadly there aren't really any good fists until level 60. However if you look in the auction house you should be able to find some nice 3 star fists.

@clericnico thxb:thanks

Just did some editing to the intro and section I. (I removed some of the flaming towards all dex fist bms, maybe thats why this has never been stickied lol. Basically if you want to make an all dex fist bm, do yourself a favor and make an assassin instead.)

Also I added a IBH - APS chart to section III. and changed my opinion on endgame equipment.

More coming soon!

Brutu - Heavens Tear

The part about sins getting more dps.

If you are talking about simply absolute pure dps with no regards to stunning or what have you, an endgame fist bm build with far too expensive of equipment and refines with deicides and interval gear aswell as demon spark gets about 52k dps according to pwi calc.

Whereas just as expensive of a build with same refinement and such on a sin with double spark gets around 15-17k dps... So even with a demon spark it would be a stretch for the sin to get the same dps as the fist bm.

Though this is kinda an unrealistic discussion as most of the fight would be spent exchanging stuns.

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver

Brutu - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The part about sins getting more dps.

If you are talking about simply absolute pure dps with no regards to stunning or what have you, an endgame fist bm build with far too expensive of equipment and refines with deicides and interval gear aswell as demon spark gets about 52k dps according to pwi calc.

Whereas just as expensive of a build with same refinement and such on a sin with double spark gets around 15-17k dps... So even with a demon spark it would be a stretch for the sin to get the same dps as the fist bm.

Though this is kinda an unrealistic discussion as most of the fight would be spent exchanging stuns.

If you did the calculator for Sin, it's not working right now and they have a line saying it's not working on the page. A Sin with the same gears will have a higher DPS, period. I really don't want to go into all the details again on why that's true... do a search on the Sin's forum and you'll find your answer.

Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver

No a sin with the same equipment will have less dps. They ALSO need rank 8 chest, and either nirvana daggers or rank 8 daggers (can't remember which one has IBH) to get to 3.33 aps (allowing perma demon spark) which is needless to say, EXPENSIVE. Now that I think about it though a fist bm perma sparking at 5 aps might actually out dps a sin perma sparking at 4 aps hmm.. I'm sure Telarith will clarify.

But anyway once you bring a high str Relentless courage into the equation both an endgame fist bm and an endgame sin can reach 5 aps, so a sin will win out on dps simply because daggers do more damage.

However like I said, 99.99% of sins will never have this equipment, so its not really an issue.

MALIGNO - Harshlands

just read the intro and all the comments.b:worried
First, i have to commend you on making this guide for beginners. I like the APS section, i think that's very informative. While you have the basic concept on PVP section try not to classify it as easy, medium, hard or impossible. rather, just put your 2cents in against what character you're going against ie
CLERICS: blah blah blah can be
WIZ : blah blah blah (not really a problem till they are +95
archers : blah blah watch out for their sparks
BARBS : blah (btw barbs are easier to kill with fist than robes)
HA venos: blah blah (still giving me problems but not impossible to kill.)

and so on and so forth.. i say this not with impudence or air of arrogance, but instead i find too many flaws or scenario where the strategy you mentioned is lacking. make another PVP thread if you want, but do it when you're +95 or better yet at lvl 100 which is not impossible anymore. I forgot the name but someone made a comment that Fist don't spike for the kill in PVP. Anyways, Fist users don't need to spike; they just need to uninteruptedly hit you. Too hard to demonstrate using words; come look for me or EmoWDF when you're in Harshland. Its easy to find us; we hang out at west gate most of the time xD. For those ppl who are adamant on going 3-4 paths (fist, axe, pole, sword) Don't you feel short-changed now that you didn't go sage BM? Oh darn it! i love to comment more on some of the pseudo-experts on these thread but i gtg for now. oh yeah before i forgot.
go minimum dex and str and put the rest on vits. you'll TANK me later on. to be cont....

Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver

I admit my pvp section is ****. I wrote it down in about 5 minutes, and only had pre 90 pvp experience. If you could write one out I will gladly replace it, and credit you of course. And no, I'm a 3 weapon path bm and not once ever have I wished I was sage. In fact I tell myself all the time I feel sorry for all those sage bms who shortchanged themselves.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

sins out dps fists at 2 times

if neither has ANY -interval gear and bm does not have wind sheild

if both have 5 attacks per second

sin chi skills break their DPS enough that you can hold aggro with -.1 (assuming both have it) because sins get less per int and at both for -.1 you can maintain the same spark time without skill spam

and each added - interval widens the gap till both hit 5 APS

still waiting on somone to try out the adv revenge claws to see if we get higher DPS assuming both have nirvana as well

MALIGNO - Harshlands

Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

. And no, I'm a 3 weapon path bm and not once ever have I wished I was sage. In fact I tell myself all the time I feel sorry for all those sage bms who shortchanged themselves.

Touche'! So let us look at this on a bigger picture. PVP starts with 1 vs 1 which will quickly turns out to mass PVP. Now look at the skills, BM buffs (marrow phy/magical increase of 180% on sage, sage bell with the 90% increase base on equipment value), Heavens Flame sage with additional 2K damage vs demon with additional of so many secs, 90% vs the 75% increase base damage on lvl 11 masteries and other skills i'm sure you already compared at pwi ecatomb. One of the BMs strengths is to be able to utilize different weapons on different circumstance. I mentioned on my other post that, what players are really looking for is what will give them the EDGE. If you promote being hybrid BM(multi-path at endgame), then obviously sage BM has that EDGE if you multi path. If you "feel sorry for all those sage bms who shortchanged themselves" then you haven't really done careful analysis being 3 weapon path xD.

Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver

Here are 2 fully buffed BMs, one with sage golden bell, magic marrow and fist mastery, one with all demon

Sage
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=dfb1f141f0a9e465

Demon
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=a0ff0ef9aa26c4af

First look at the defenses, they are pretty even, but I prefer demon just because its bit more balanced. I will admit though that sage bell is pretty beast. Edge to sage.

Now look at the damage. Weapon masteries are all based on WEAPON damage. The
actual increase in damage is only 3.5%. Its a very small edge(INCREDIBLY small in pvp), but it still goes to sage.

Other skills that go to sage- aeolian blade, farstrike, diamond sutra, and that skill that gives +50 chi.

Now onto why I still think demon far outclasses sage.
Demon spark gives fists the edge due to the increased attack speed, allowing them to perma spark at 3.33 attacks per second. A sage fister can perma spark with nirvana pants but they will only be doing 4 attacks per second, demon is 5. So to any hybrid bm using fists sage REALLY gimps you.

Another aspect is stuns. Demon drake bash is 7.5 seconds, roar never misses, aolian blade has a shorter cooldown, and meteor rush and MSS can also stun. This gives demons a HUGE edge in pvp, even more so to a fist bm because keeping someone in place is just that more important. Also if someone still happens to run away, farstrike and drakes ray are both 18 meters as demon, that with smack can make the difference between an opponent getting to safe zone or dying.

You mention sage hf does an extra 2k damage. I think a demon bm can do a LOT more than 2k with an extra 3 seconds of hf, so demon wins out there. Also there's demon glacial spike, with a 50% chance to make ALL hits critical, you can dish out some SERIOUS spike damage with that, especially when combined with 9 seconds of hf.



I'm gonna make a new thread, so respond there.

MALIGNO - Harshlands

If your rational about about demon buffs is more balance than sage buffs then you haven't met or encounter a high DD(damage dealer) magic caster or even archers who use thunder bolt. That and your pvp experience is still in its infancy. you can use the word "balance" but on pvp, trust me balance is not the word you want to cling at. 180% marrow magic/phy and 90% sage bell will and makes the difference when you're pvp'ing.


"Demon spark gives fists the edge due to the increased attack speed, allowing them to perma spark at 3.33 attacks per second. A sage fister can perma spark with nirvana pants but they will only be doing 4 attacks per second, demon is 5. So to any hybrid bm using fists sage REALLY gimps you."

PVE, demon sage can and will shine due to perma spark which will equate to automatic aggro against some barbs and other Tank. If you get your kicks on being TANK on PVE then by alll means more power to you. I'm sure barbs are happy that their repair bills is a lot cheaper now. Now to look at the overall picture, On pve, you are just a small part on taking out that FB bosses or even World Bosses. You're constant damage you get from perma spark is still minute compare to rank 8 DD with HF/DG(heavens flame/dragon). now lwts talk about PVP. I still think you still need to experience more pvp to know that by the time you finish your demon spark, your opponent will be far away from you unless you have a teamate helpig you stun locking him/her. Most pro pvp (with a good refine weapon or rank 8) knows how to defeat a BM; sleep/stun + spark + their ultis or their highest damage dealing skill ( water dragon from wiz, thunder bolt from archers, perd from barbs and so forth) and trust me all of these can 1 shoot a demon BM.b:laugh

"Another aspect is stuns. Demon drake bash is 7.5 seconds, roar never misses, aolian blade has a shorter cooldown, and meteor rush and MSS can also stun. This gives demons a HUGE edge in pvp, even more so to a fist bm because keeping someone in place is just that more important. Also if someone still happens to run away, farstrike and drakes ray are both 18 meters as demon, that with smack can make the difference between an opponent getting to safe zone or dying."

Most pro pvp'er that i've met knows all about BMs capability to stun lock therefore they use anti stun pots. Smack losses its effect with a blick of an eye so timing it is very crucial to be even effective. as far as drakes ray and farstrike, last time i look, sage BM has the upper hand on this. so while you're trying to stun lock an opponent with a 20secs anti stun pot, he is DDing you like crazy. Again, to be effective will depend on all your skill (get occult ice so PRO)

"You mention sage hf does an extra 2k damage. I think a demon bm can do a LOT more than 2k with an extra 3 seconds of hf, so demon wins out there. Also there's demon glacial spike, with a 50% chance to make ALL hits critical, you can dish out some SERIOUS spike damage with that, especially when combined with 9 seconds of hf."

I'll take the 2K damage anytime over the 3 secs HF. HF is one of those skill most pro pvp'er fear the most. Once they see this they run away from its range like high schoolers on ditching day. At most you have 2 secs to have them at HF range before they're holypathing away from you.

Lastly, try to have bolt of tyrus on your arsenal cause i rarely see this mentioned as part of a very important skill for Fist users.

Yulk - Heavens Tear

Sorry, I disagree with ocean's edge and vicious palm about leaving it at LVL 1. And about the armors.

First of all we should make sure the kiters DON'T make us try following while waiting on cloud's spirit and will of bodhistiva on cooldown... In PVE stun the kiting mobs? Uhm, as far as I noticed when I used stun on a kiting mob after it moved back twice, it started doing it again... slowing down my dps dramatically. Ocean's edge and vicious palm fixes that kiting problem.

And about PVP... Arcane magic classes easiest in PVP? You got to be kidding me dude XD, unless if you ninja their behinds or they fail or they stupid enough to try and tank bms. I saw a fail wiz PK 2 BMs fighting that hit almost 400K DAMAGE b:surrender. I am pretty sure he was pure mag too. Saw it on youtube, but I can't find the damn link b:cry . And barbs are opposite from hardest I believe. If they don't have on poison fang, you can just spam alter marrow physical with heavy armor. Its just a long fight, but we should be able to come out on top. Better to use more than 1 weapon. We got 2 ranged attacks, leap, marrows and ofc 2 stuns. Barbs should be the easiest to beat, it just lasts a little longer.

LA BMs? more like BMs wearing LA is the easiest for us, as far as I can tell, why would a BM use LA for physical classes b:chuckle . As for LA, I prefer to get ones with VIT bonus and add sapphires and use magical marrow to massively decrease the issues of M.DEF. But I won't use alter marrows on clerics because they will plume shot me more. Even if I use LA, the cleric's plume shot will hurt more, but that will force the cleric not to kite as well.

Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver

ocean's edge is fine, but vacuous palm is still a waste of one spark.

Arcanes aren't stupid enough to tank you, thats what stuns are for.

Using phys marrow on a decent barb is suicide, they likely have thunderstorm or bramble rage for just that. Also try pking a 90+ barb before you try to tell anyone how "easy" they are.

Yes LA BMs are easy, I never said they weren't.

Keep magic marrow level 3-5, then you won't have to worry about plume shot.


@Maligno I don't care about tanking so much, but as a DD I want to be able to kill stuff as fast as possible in pve, demon spark accomplishes that.

haha I see you didn't have anything to say about demon glacial spike :P

I don't know if you've used it, but Bolt of Tyreseus isn't as good as you think. To do any kind of damage you need to at least combine it with spark or hf. It is a part of my arsenal though since I have zerk fists, nothing like doing an hf + BoT zerk crit and hitting every arcane in range for 10k lol.


Ultimately as a high level BM on a pvp server, I'm inclined to agree with you that sage might be best for pvp. But since fist is my main weapon, I will never ever regret going demon.

cairparavel

Hi,
I'm lvl 17 (5 str-4dex-1vit build) and my damage is OK, but I have to drink a potion at least after every monster. Each mob takes 1/4 - 1/2 of my HP. Which I find a bit much O.o
Is this normal with this build? Is it really this potion-dependent or am I doing something wrong? And will it remain like this in the future? (I only had a LA veno before, maybe that's why I'm not used to take this much damage.)
Thanks!

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear

Yes its normal. When you reach 29 and get sutra you will have an easier time.

FrostKiller - Sanctuary

Actually arcanes are easy unless they're super cash shopper. Arcane = dead in 1 stun at max interval

As for barbs, they're easy too since the usually don't run from spark, unless arma + BR 1hits you then phys marrow is fine. CD on invoke = 60secs, even with beastial rage up if they can't kill you before your demon spark ends, then (if at full interval) you've built up another 3 sparks and you're ready to own since invoke only lasts 20 seconds.


As for the guide i disagree with dragon bane, sadly it's only 30 seconds but a combo i've found is dragon bane, then hit till full sparks and spark, cloud eruption, and HF then dps. More spotlight should be on this skill considering as fist for 30 seconds it increases your.


Also, bolt of tyreseus is a necessity for any tw bm. Cat barbs often are able to run out of roar range in time but bolt of tyreseuse can and will freeze everyone around, its much quicker then roar too since often you have to time when to start roar

Joshcja - Sanctuary

FrostKiller - Sanctuary wrote: »

Actually arcanes are easy unless they're super cash shopper. Arcane = dead in 1 stun at max interval

As for barbs, they're easy too since the usually don't run from spark, unless arma + BR 1hits you then phys marrow is fine. CD on invoke = 60secs, even with beastial rage up if they can't kill you before your demon spark ends, then (if at full interval) you've built up another 3 sparks and you're ready to own since invoke only lasts 20 seconds.


As for the guide i disagree with dragon bane, sadly it's only 30 seconds but a combo i've found is dragon bane, then hit till full sparks and spark, cloud eruption, and HF then dps. More spotlight should be on this skill considering as fist for 30 seconds it increases your.


Also, bolt of tyreseus is a necessity for any tw bm. Cat barbs often are able to run out of roar range in time but bolt of tyreseuse can and will freeze everyone around, its much quicker then roar too since often you have to time when to start roar

killing idiots who dont shard for phys dont have a stunbreaker geni and apoths or actually try to tank hell spark dosent count

they're...idiots

and yes bolt is amazing

FrostKiller - Sanctuary

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

killing idiots who dont shard for phys dont have a stunbreaker geni and apoths or actually try to tank hell spark dosent count

they're...idiots

and yes bolt is amazing

I'm 3.33 unsparked with tt100 +8 i don't need to spark to kill in 1 stun. Btw 2 stuns, 1 seal, 1 5 sec immobilize, a genie only works so many times to break free

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

I smell a necro. b:avoid

Gilforin - Lost City

Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

ocean's edge is fine, but vacuous palm is still a waste of one spark.

Arcanes aren't stupid enough to tank you, thats what stuns are for.

Using phys marrow on a decent barb is suicide, they likely have thunderstorm or bramble rage for just that. Also try pking a 90+ barb before you try to tell anyone how "easy" they are.

Yes LA BMs are easy, I never said they weren't.

Keep magic marrow level 3-5, then you won't have to worry about plume shot.


@Maligno I don't care about tanking so much, but as a DD I want to be able to kill stuff as fast as possible in pve, demon spark accomplishes that.

haha I see you didn't have anything to say about demon glacial spike :P

I don't know if you've used it, but Bolt of Tyreseus isn't as good as you think. To do any kind of damage you need to at least combine it with spark or hf. It is a part of my arsenal though since I have zerk fists, nothing like doing an hf + BoT zerk crit and hitting every arcane in range for 10k lol.


Ultimately as a high level BM on a pvp server, I'm inclined to agree with you that sage might be best for pvp. But since fist is my main weapon, I will never ever regret going demon.

1. Ocean's edge never used it, never will xD.


2. I agree

3. Barbs are easy, to easy. way to easy Phy marrow for barbs is never necesary, cause of the stuns.


4. not that many EP's use plume shot on you anyways . xD


5. Who needs barbs to tank we can do it all even World Bosses. (some)
Hell spark makes you DD's Better then a full squad of anything.


6. At first when I started to lv up I would just max anything, and got my marrow to lv 8 b:sad . Thats what made me go demon in the first place.
End game lv 11 mag marrow is insane, when your well geard.
with marrow my phy def goes to 9037 and magical def 9345, with Ep buffs is better.
But at first you just get ***** all the time. soo I learned not to use it till lv higher.


7.Demon glacial spike isnt that good HF makes more damages anyways, even on Fist DPS


8. You have no idea how good Bolt is. anyway you look at it. I think its one of the best skills a BM can have. Even if your not a fist BM you should carry some low lv fist to use it at proper time.


9. Sage is not the way. b:bye

Flexfit - Dreamweaver

bumpb:laugh

DPSx - Lost City

great guide sticky pls