Drunken_Chu's Fist BM guide

Telarith - Sanctuary

Demon sparked, my phys attack is about 7.6K average with the fists I have (Gorenox, only +1 right now). So Tyrseus deals 19,760 for base + 1430 (weapon damage) for 21,190 spike. Then it has the status adds, and the remaining duration of demon spark for the extra attacks and damage to finish off. Can only see a few places doing it would be better than say, Heaven's Flame Glacial spike combo with level 99, or other ones, but it is very nice to see a 40K crit pop up on that turtle south of arch. He is my favorite test dummy

Now, berserk status would be good for a roughly 50% extra damage in there, and then swapping to a refined TT90 sac fist (would raise all the damage points, since I'm using a +1 refined for this example). So a roughly 35K normal hit, 70K crit, 140K sac crit. PK reduct down to 35K, resists drop it further down. But combo it with someone else, or some debuff skills, and it makes for a powerful spike that could easily one shot many arcanes and light armor. Would need genie skills and possibly a BM assisting with Heavens Flame to hurt heavy armors.

Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver

There's 2 genie skills to increase chi, cloud eruption and Chi siphon. So Demon spark, hit with lunar glade fists and hope u get berserk, genie skill for chi and HF, switch to TT90 sacrificial strike fists and use a chi pot and hope u get a zerk crit on BoT. If you want to get even more disgusting have a veno add amp damage in there, and EP and tangling mire b:laugh

I believe this combo would probably do even more spike damage than perdition ever could.

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary

Ive seen some very nice tables in here about the attack speed of fists based on interval that totally changed the way i thought of minus intervals effects....

If anyone knows it is there some sort of equation that with a given attack speed base and minus interval you can calculate attacks per second....im just curious. Because after seeing that i finally realize how large the effect of it is, i thought it was much smaller origionally.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Physical Damage Formula:

1 + ((2/3 Str)/100) + Mastery (60% would be .6) * (LVL + Phys Attk)

1/Attack Rate = Interval
1/Interval = Attack Rate

Speed Buff affects Interval by:

Interval * (100 - Speed buff) = new interval. Rounded to nearest .05 multiple.

Arkright - Dreamweaver

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Physical Damage Formula:

1 + ((2/3 Str)/100) + Mastery (60% would be .6) * (LVL + Phys Attk)

1/Attack Rate = Interval
1/Interval = Attack Rate

Speed Buff affects Interval by:

Interval * (100 - Speed buff) = new interval. Rounded to nearest .05 multiple.

So the attack speed buff has diminishing returns as well? I suppose that the opposite effect from -interval more than makes up for it. My question is does the buff round to 0 if the interval is too low, or does it round to .05 just for a buff?

Kniraven - Lost City

Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sunspot I meant using SWORDS and fists is a waste of coin and spirit, but throughout the rest of the guide I HIGHLY encourage multclassing with axes. I myself am a Fist/Axe/Polearm BM.

I respectfully disagree. In my opinion both swords and fists are single target DPS weapons which are great for 1vs1 PvP and Tanking.

While being able to use Axes/Poles could easily be considered a better option if you want to be better able to clear an instance and/or have an AoE weapon, Swords & Fists can be used together on a single target for some amazing DPS whether tanking or in 1vs1 PvP.

Swords are my primary weapon, and Fists are my secondary. I use all four, but only have my sword skills all maxed and my fists coming in second.

PvE: I like to use fists for speeding up the atk rate of my swords or gaining chi for sparking or using an ulti, and canceling channeling (along with smack), but inbetween I will switch to swords for Atmos Strike and if my party is taking heavy damage I can throw out a Myriad to reduce it for a bit and allow them to recover.

PvP: I use fists for atk speed + chi, switch to swords for Atmos and Myriad.

(Atmos is hardest hitting non-chi skill of the four trees)
(Myriad is hardest hitting ulti of the 4 trees)

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary

Atmos is a good skill for hitting them hard and using no chi, but I have to say farstrike (especially sage version) is the hardest hitting skill you can use as a bm aside from ultimates (it actually hits harder then all of the ultimates except myriad, and mabye glacial... if its sage), is ranged, and does not take an extremely long time to cast. Also aeolin blade hits harder than atmos if sage. But I consider those the top 3 attacks for single target heavy hits for a cost of 0 chi. Axe aoes come no where near the damage vs one target that those three skills do if your a sage, if your a demon aeolin and highland are prolly about the same damage wise. Highland also has a longer cast time then all of these...fissure....well that is just base + some number....dealing way less than any of those skills, dont even bother in 1v1 unless you wanna slow them or reduce their fire resist. I agree with everything else you said for the most part.

Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver

I agree with everything you said Kniraven. But since fists are 1v1 you should be leveling axes to make up for your shortcomings (aka lack of stun and aoes). Unless you hold yourself back at 85 and do gammas you will not have nearly enough spirit to level Myriad and Atmos. Also Atmos does knockback which is usually detrimental, not beneficial, and if there's ever a scenario where you need to Myriad to help your squad a BB should probably be up anyway. Finally using cylcone and switching to swords for the speed buff is great if sword is your main, but a bm with fist as their main with a similar weapon will always out dps you.

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear

Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Atmos does knockback which is usually detrimental, not beneficial, and if there's ever a scenario where you need to Myriad to help your squad a BB should probably be up anyway.

Two things to note:

One is Atmos's knock back effect doesn't work on every mob and not on bosses. With that being said. It does have use in party. Experience will define the way you use it.

Two is that Myriad is an awesome skill to have leveled for its debuff. If a party member steals aggro use. If tank dies and you start to tank boss. Use...etc...etc..

Telarith - Sanctuary

In low 80s range, I had both heaven's and myriad maxed to level. These are priority, since my main leveling was doing rebirth gamma. And while Heaven's is great for my normal good groups, pick up or new groups I would use Myriad for the barbs that seemed crappy. On double waves, when they inevitably died from not knowing about stuns/mana drain, wait for them to get close. Usually did an AoE or two as they closed, then Roar of the Pride to grab aggro. Follow up with Myriad, then run in and out of zhen area as needed for charm to recharge. Wouldn't lose aggro if I would run in with Cloud Sprint and hit 2 AoE's and run back out. Usually they would be dropping dead by the time the barb makes it back out.

Also, with another fister who has Myriad, you guys can Myriad lock a boss, for a guaranteed 50% damage reduction on it. If doing BB, 1/4 damage. Means basically no charm tick for anyone who tanks, and accidental aggro grabs don't matter so much anymore. Definitely an amazing skill to level up with Heaven's.

I'm kinda most looking forward to having an assassin in a group right now. Health gain based off of damage dealt? That is a great veno killer (reflect damage? Who cares, I heal it anyways) Mostly wondering about the cooldown and duration. If there would be some way to keep it going permanent, imagine a fister who can do back to back demon spark with health gain from damage. Or if that attack level buff works on others from the psychic. And I wonder how that extra mag def skill will scale. Either way, I'm looking forward to their inclusion. Barbs might not be as necessary as people like to believe even more so now

Kniraven - Lost City

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Two things to note:

One is Atmos's knock back effect doesn't work on every mob and not on bosses. With that being said. It does have use in party. Experience will define the way you use it.

Two is that Myriad is an awesome skill to have leveled for its debuff. If a party member steals aggro use. If tank dies and you start to tank boss. Use...etc...etc..

o_o *blinks* Zero said pretty much everything I would have.
Also, knockback is good for getting mobs away from each other.

I.E. Stun mob, run behind it, Knock it at party so it doesn't run back toward other mobs.



To RRARR:

Yeah if you go Sage then Farstrike in the end deals more than Atmos.
IDK about it hitting harder than ultis though =x I'll have to have a look into it.
Also pretty sure Atmos still hits harder than Aelion.

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary

Oh right there is one thing id like to clear up, because it seems some of you know alot about this subject...I was talking about this with some people and they informed me that there was a maximum attack speed of 2 attacks per second? So is there a cap or not...if there is that would suck ****.....I dont know because I have never tried to get past it lol.

Telarith - Sanctuary

From our main sources of information, there is a cap of 5 attacks per second, due to the animation sequences not being coded for higher than that. It will show your supposed APS in character window, but actual is max of 5. I'll do a hard test if you want next level, I should be able to get a 2.86 attack rate; so if I gain (2.86*5*12) around 171 chi, then I am hitting at proper rate.

On the plus side, it takes alot of effort to get our 5 APS anyways, getting 6.67 or higher would take serious amounts of effort outside of being an archer fists. So if there isn't an attack cap, we end up being less damaging than an archer doing fist role. So think of the cap as job security

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary

Archers also dont have a fist mastery, so we dont have to worry about much from them competing with us in melee combat.

But yeah i guess what your saying makes sense, there are other things in the char sheet like crit rate, where half the buffs for it dont show up, but are still there...sigh the issues they need to fix. Thanks for the confirmation though.

Mythsoul - Heavens Tear

I do have 1 question, regarding heavy armour fist BMs.

is there much point to one? if you are indeed wearing heavy armour you would also be able to use swords/pole/axe.

so what I've noticed many people use fists for secondary weapons.
what are the advantages of a pure fist BM?

Kniraven - Lost City

Mythsoul - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I do have 1 question, regarding heavy armour fist BMs.

is there much point to one? if you are indeed wearing heavy armour you would also be able to use swords/pole/axe.

so what I've noticed many people use fists for secondary weapons.
what are the advantages of a pure fist BM?

Your DPS is greater than any other weapon.
You gain chi the quickest.
You can interrupt casting.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

if by "pure" you mean a bm with high str still able to use = lvl fists (3:2 5:4:1 builds) with good - interval gear....what Kniraven said lol

if your talking about a bm who ONLY has learned the fist path and shuns all others..... thats as dumb as a "pure" axe bm sword bm or pole user.

bm's are ment to use all weapons there are no types of bm's we just tend to gear ourselves twards our favorite weapons

in short why settle for one path when u can have em all?b:chuckle

Mythsoul - Heavens Tear

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Your DPS is greater than any other weapon.
You gain chi the quickest.
You can interrupt casting.

dps is useless in PvP or am i wrong? higher spike damage results in a better chance at dropping charmed opponents.

shadowless kick is a good channel canceler but so is "smack/stun"
as an axe BM I have never found problems with chi my main skills (Marrow, aeolian + normal attack) generate chi so I not worried about chi.

joshcja wrote:

if by "pure" you mean a bm with high str still able to use = lvl fists (3:2 5:4:1 builds) with good - interval gear....what Kniraven said lol

if your talking about a bm who ONLY has learned the fist path and shuns all others..... tthats as dumb as a "pure" axe bm sword bm or pole user.

bm's are ment to use all weapons there are no types of bm's we just tend to gear ourselves twards our favorite weapons

in short why settle for one path when u can have em all?

A stupid pure Axe BM? maybe if you ever meet a Axe BM in pk you will retract that statement.

my axes were about 15-20mill BEFORE gold was 500kea try getting 4 weapons worth 15-20mill+ea aswell as the skills. all 59 skills are 4mill + alone

Filet - Heavens Tear

Mythsoul - Heavens Tear wrote: »

dps is useless in PvP or am i wrong? higher spike damage results in a better chance at dropping charmed opponents.

shadowless kick is a good channel canceler but so is "smack/stun"
as an axe BM I have never found problems with chi my main skills (Marrow, aeolian + normal attack) generate chi so I not worried about chi.




A stupid pure Axe BM? maybe if you ever meet a Axe BM in pk you will retract that statement.

my axes were about 15-20mill BEFORE gold was 500kea try getting 4 weapons worth 15-20mill+ea aswell as the skills. all 59 skills are 4mill + alone

DPS isn't useless in pvp, it's just harder to use effectively. I've had no problems from pure axe bms, if you ask other 90+ classes none of the experienced ones are afraid of pure axe bms. When your base physical attack is 5k, and you do 2.5 atk/s, that's 12.5k damage per second. 3.125k damage after pvp reduction, and giving a 70% phys res that's 937.5 damage per second. Yes it requires your target to be stationary, but that's easily accomplished with a stunlock. 10 seconds of holding the target in place is already over 9k damage. Fists by itself isn't an effective pvp weapon, but combined with other paths suck as axe, it allows fist users to use their ridiculous dps much more effectively.

Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver

OK I've taken out the part that says multiclassing with swords is a waste of coin and spirit.

If anyone wants to write a genie section and write a BETTER pvp section feel free to do so, and I'll copy and paste it into the guide. I have a TON of 12 hour shifts to work so I don't really have time.

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary

If your attacking with 2.5 attacks per second your also generating a spark every 8 seconds, considering that is a base attack speed, add in speed buffs to easily get more attack speed, and you can stunlock an opponent for forever. If your demon you probably will even have chi to spare after stunlocking them for a ridiculous amount of time...as for kiling them, well...they wont be going anywhere in the near future, so with crits and the additional attack speed factored in you should be able to drop something with 10-15k hp within 10 seconds while stunning them. If you can keep them locked down during a demon spark then sorry for them, they are doomed.

Telarith - Sanctuary

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary wrote: »

If your attacking with 2.5 attacks per second your also generating a spark every 8 seconds, considering that is a base attack speed, add in speed buffs to easily get more attack speed, and you can stunlock an opponent for forever. If your demon you probably will even have chi to spare after stunlocking them for a ridiculous amount of time...as for kiling them, well...they wont be going anywhere in the near future, so with crits and the additional attack speed factored in you should be able to drop something with 10-15k hp within 10 seconds while stunning them. If you can keep them locked down during a demon spark then sorry for them, they are doomed.

Demon Drake's, Marrow, Demon Spark, auto with poison pot already on, Roar, auto, Tyrseus finisher. It's one thing I'm thinking of trying at 99, since 5 attacks per second is a spark every 4 secs And only need to weapon swap once for that chain, which means less wasted time. Hopefully roar before charm tick, then 5 secs or so of heavy hitting. Then hit with sparked Tyrseus, which freezes them, and feel free to smack afterwards. They are frozen and unable to use skills or pots, Drake 'em again. Might be cutting it close for the 2nd Drake's though, so might need refining. But if you don't get em Demon sparked, most likely not a prayer without it, so you're mostly just stun-lock jockey at that point.

EDIT: Note though, any experienced pvp'er will likely be mashing a stun immune skill if you take too long getting your second stun out there. And seeing you demon spark gives them plenty of reason to want to, or stun you back. So lotsa practice timing the chain is needed to even bring this idea up to feasible.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

for the pk situation you suggested tel couldent those shortcomings be filled by occoult ice to stick them in place and will of bolshi to stun imune?

also....ya 5 atacks per second WANTb:dirty

Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver

Actually you only get 4 chi per hit when using fists, so 2.5 attack rate would be 1 spark in 10 seconds not 8.

Telarith - Sanctuary

The chi per hit changes. It gives either 4 or 8, depending on which particular animation it is using at that time. Sometimes you get back to back 8s when attacking. Best thing, is to just have max chi, hit your demon spark, and then watch what it ends up as at the end. That let's you know how much chi you gain during that time. But remember, not using the combo trick to attack faster out of spark will skew the odds.

Also, found this link on the archer forums for the upcoming grade 15 weapons in the expansion. Fists will have a very noticeable look to them, almost looks like a heaven and hell version.

http://w2i.wanmei.com/djzb/yxwp/20091102/36688.shtml

EDIT: Just noticed I didn't mention, but each time I checked over-all chi gain it ended up averaging out to 5 per hit in that time interval. I was wondering if it would change based off of numbers of 8s and 4, but each time it was static. So I think it has set animations it uses based off of how many particular attacks hit in any given second. Only theory I have for why the end chi ended up the same when you gain different amounts of chi per hit.

GodlyTank - Dreamweaver

Haha, Chu ftw! gotta Duel me in-game before our TW this week b:laugh

Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver

yo Telarith, I was thinking, if DBB is 80% fire weapon damage, and demon spark is 500% weapon damage, would they stack to make a 400% fire damage added? If so that would be AWSOME!

Telarith - Sanctuary

Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

yo Telarith, I was thinking, if DBB is 80% fire weapon damage, and demon spark is 500% weapon damage, would they stack to make a 400% fire damage added? If so that would be AWSOME!

Don't think so. Tyrseus can do it not because of the 260% weapon damage, but because of the 260% base physical damage part. Dragon's Breath only adds based off of % of weapon damage. Can't test to make sure, since I'm not boosting it until level 99 when I demonize it, but just off of the description I wouldn't think so. Quite frankly, if they allowed it to do that, it would be way too over-powered compared to any other 59 skill. Just doing damage based off of weapon damage is enough to make it deal more damage than the other skills on its own, but it is staggered out as DPS instead of a spike.

EDIT: Going in a different direction, just had a thought on how views might change about fist BMs with the expansion; public quests. The rewards will be based off of "The contribution value is based on your monster kills, quest items collections, and damage inflicted to the boss, etc"

So, as a rundown:

DPS for bosses: fister should win. Since max health debuffs aren't true damage dealt, as the archer/veno does not get aggro forever from it, that won't count. Meaning having the highest DPS will win out. Likely alot of complaints from traditional favored classes being left out of rewards, but archers and strength fisters should love it.

Quest collection: Holy Path, Cloud Sprint, Will. Might not be the fastest from passive buffs, but we can keep it up there pretty well for speed buffs that last. If it is drops from mobs, we have that taken care of too.

Monster kills: High health individual mobs- fist. Lotsa mobs that can be grouped -axe.

I think I know where I'll be hanging out in the future

Joshcja - Sanctuary

its only for weapon damage (tested)


wish it was for all damage lol then i could turn my myriad into a mini blade tempest

Telarith - Sanctuary

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

its only for weapon damage (tested)


wish it was for all damage lol then i could turn my myriad into a mini blade tempest

I did a quick generic test while doing WQ, but didn't post it since something strange happened that would need more effort than I wanted to put in it yet.

First, unequipped weapon to get a base number to determine set amount of damage without range. Then I used 59 to see if it went off of total weapon damage, or just the damage of the weapon. No increase in damage without weapon equipped, so I swapped up to weapon. Then for S&Gs, removed weapon and went back to fisting damage. Thing is, this time I was getting a bonus damage using no weapon.

It might be that it recognizes the weapon used only for means of adding damage. Meaning you can't use cheap fist, and then swap to another weapon (chi heavy places) for an even greater boost. Or could be some other strange effect that might be maximized to boost the skill more. Just some other quirk of the skill noticed for reference.