SO I POSTED: xD
Comments
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EricaPn - Heavens Tear wrote: »hiya all !!!
i've been reading and experienced, and hearing alot about BM talks. Ingame/Forums wises.
came to me attention by the following:
1. why are Fist BM being put down so much? (have you all experience/tested thruly yet? thru lvl 100+? have you try all twist +turns?)
2. why people keep direct new players to wear Light armor on Fist BM?
(Fist attack = very close range therefore you'll take phys damage at most. but light armor = squishy for phys damage. i dont care how much eva you got. if you haven't test thruly or dont know about it. then SHUT IT)
3. Why are you all telling people Fist BM need to go Demon? (again have you tested thruly yet?. or are you just hearing rumors or read about it somewhere else and just came here to tell us ?. cause 1% crit on demon + speed attack on demon = crappy to fist BM. being Fist BM you have so much crit if you build your char right. and being Fist BM you're lack of damage on weapon wise. )
again.. if you haven't test thruly and dont know for sure ..
PLEASE DONT DIRECT NEW PEOPLE THE WRONG WAY.
iam a Fist BM and yes i've tested more in Fist than you ever known.
i've done most of the stuff Barbs can't i've aoe like Axe , i've deal more damage than you can imagined.. so i said and i posted.
holy shiznit wow faster than AOE like axe!!? b:shockedLyndura - Lost City wrote: »1.- Yes.
2.- Because they are noobs.
3.- You know that the difference between Heaven and Hell weapon mastery is just around 100~300 physical attack? (the latter one when your weapon is +12).
And people say usually Hell because of the attack speed. But some of them post without knowing about the "attack speed caps" the game has.
I'll test light armored BM, nothin' wrong with that b:bye
FIST BMS pwn!![SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thanks for Flauschkatze for siggy b:cool
VIT > STR > DEX > MAG... GG
HA > LA > AR... GG
HA + VIT = win b:bye0 -
Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »(501+554)*0.5*1.43=754
(582+1358)*0.5*.83=805
However, I always add shards on my weapons. lets add two shards of +50 each on both weapons. In other words we add 100 on each weapon with shards.
100*1.43=143=>754+143=897
100*0.83=83=>805+83=888
now both weapons are kind of the same. However, the chi created on fists should break the tie.
where did u get 0.5? is this equation atk per second? or per atk? coz if its per atk theres no way a fist can out dmg an axe in a single atk... Can u explain the numbers and where u get them0 -
where did u get 0.5? is this equation atk per second? or per atk? coz if its per atk theres no way a fist can out dmg an axe in a single atk... Can u explain the numbers and where u get them
thats the average damage per second.
in a second fist does 1.43 attacks while axes does 0.83 per second.
0.5 because you need to average out the value of every attack (max + min)/2
again axes are having more damage prior adding shards. but fists creates more chi. so you can use sparks eruption more often with fists than with axes.0 -
It looks good on paper, too bad the game is not that easy to figure out and of course is not even close to what it really is.0
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There are magic formulas that are never taken in consideration in 99.9% of these math theories.
They're called
-melee vs range
-running speed
-flying speed
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Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »It looks good on paper, too bad the game is not that easy to figure out and of course is not even close to what it really is.
surely you can't ignore the fact you can get 3.25 atk speed at 99 with fists? gx doesn't even compare to that in pvp.0 -
Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »It looks good on paper, too bad the game is not that easy to figure out and of course is not even close to what it really is.
you want to return to that old topic again? and confuse people?
we all know this is not final damage, but very likely directly proporcional.
However, I will give you a point since it might not be directly proporcial.
for instance, there might be a minor posibitlity that final damage works like something this.
your enemy defence could be 300 and your attack with axes 400 and your atack with fists 310.
attack-minus defence= final damage.
in such a case axes would have the edge
as axes would be doing 100 in every final damage while fists does only 10 in every attack.
but I dont think it works like anything close to that.
I think the defence should reduce a percentage of your attack, then it would be directly proporcional.0 -
Devoted - Lost City wrote: »surely you can't ignore the fact you can get 3.25 atk speed at 99 with fists? gx doesn't even compare to that in pvp.
I hope you're not getting your numbers from a calculator, right?
Yes, Fists can get 3.x (not sure what the "x" is now, because I never go to use Decadal God+HH99 Sets + Relentless Courage before, no other versions had genies before) attack speed. Yes, GX is not the end game weapon for PvP.
While Fists will never be able to compare to a Berserker+Critical Spike damage from a GX (even less with Dragon on), the latter one won't be able to compare in attack speed damage with normal attacks.
People can't drop/potion/pill/fly away from a single hit, but they can from multiple hits. That is why Fists are weak in PvP.
And Decadal God's damage can't compare to the 2.x attack speed of Dance of Universe when it comes to normal attack, even less with spike damage.Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »you want to return to that old topic again? and confuse people?
we all know this is not final damage, but very likely directly proporcional.
That is assuming that both weapons have the same STR.
Now, do you know what happens when you take into consideration weapon damage?
Also, what happens when one weapon hits it's maximum most of the time? Why do you think that Fists hit with their maximum most of the time? What when other weapons are able to do it too?Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »However, I will give you a point since it might not be directly proporcial
Exactly, you don't know if it is or not.0 -
Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »thats the average damage per second.
in a second fist does 1.43 attacks while axes does 0.83 per second.
0.5 because you need to average out the value of every attack (max + min)/2
again axes are having more damage prior adding shards. but fists creates more chi. so you can use sparks eruption more often with fists than with axes.
Now i understand ur formula, (im not good in math) so base in my exp i find that fist do outdmg axe per second when it comes to normal atk, to that i never disagreed.There are magic formulas that are never taken in consideration in 99.9% of these math theories.
They're called
-melee vs range
-running speed
-flying speed
Yes, those are to be considered that is why its up to the player how he fights in pvp, its not the char that makes the player strong its the player that makes the character strong, so each and every player has their playing tactics and whatevs... but then again we are compraing fist to an axe and nothing else since this is to clear out why fist are bing put down when compared to axe. We fist are defending ourselves,showing axe bms that they are not as so powerful as they think and we fist arent as weak as axes think we are.Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »you want to return to that old topic again? and confuse people?
we all know this is not final damage, but very likely directly proporcional.
However, I will give you a point since it might not be directly proporcial.
for instance, there might be a minor posibitlity that final damage works like something this.
your enemy defence could be 300 and your attack with axes 400 and your atack with fists 310.
attack-minus defence= final damage.
in such a case axes would have the edge
as axes would be doing 100 in every final damage while fists does only 10 in every attack.
but I dont think it works like anything close to that.
I think the defence should reduce a percentage of your attack, then it would be directly proporcional.
This game has much deeper mathematical equations to balance things out so, we should not throw each other math equation just to look right or show others which is dmg is stronger since we all cant really solve the formulas for these unless u are developers of this game, no one can give a real exact number, so everything is all but scenarios and example and should not be taken account as 100% accurate or true (yes u did mention that) all im saying we should not go down the path where in we make a nerd out of us by throwing equations and stuff.Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »
While Fists will never be able to compare to a Berserker+Critical Spike damage from a GX (even less with Dragon on), the latter one won't be able to compare in attack speed damage with normal attacks.
like the poster of this thread said, we have not really reach that lvl for us to really find out, but if scenarios are to be taken dont forget to take into account to balance everything out when ur comparing them both, since u said fist cant compare with normal to an axe with berserk+critical spike+dragon from a GA, keep in my mind fist have high crit rate and speed than axe so u should have scenario like this fist=atkspeed+highcritrate+spark vs axe=berserk+mid-low critical spike+dragons, and even with that we are still to find that out since no one yet in this server have that fist and i dont know if theirs an axe who have the Gx
also consider def,hp,eva and accuracy
(before any readers jump in to saying what about range,mage or other classes keep in mind in this post we only want to find out if fist can out dmg axe nothing else)Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »People can't drop/potion/pill/fly away from a single hit, but they can from multiple hits. That is why Fists are weak in PvP.
if pvp is the scenario what makes u think fist has no capability of holding u in 1 place? not every class have stun immune skills, why do u think kiters are meant to kite? coz they cant take all melee physical dmg coz they have low hp meaning fist dont need to land all that hits to kill a kiter, what about melee kiters? Melee kiting is a player tactic then fist will use their own, bring out ur bow and let them run, what about TW and pk fest? question: If ur a an axe bm and and theres 2 roads leading to 2 bms one is an axe and one is a fist who will u atk? the one u think is a low dmg low vit hp? or the high dmg high vit axe? and what makes u think fists doesnt have the dmg to out dmg pots and pills or even charms? have u even gone the path of fist? like what i want to stress out its the player that makes the character strong not the other way around so total dmg a fist can do is really up to the player playing the fist and as based on my experience i dont find it hard to land decent dmg and out dmg an axe without taking too much time or landing dat much hit coz i build my fist right and take care of my equips just like other players and yet i dont find myself inferior to other bm classLyndura - Lost City wrote: »
That is assuming that both weapons have the same STR.
Now, do you know what happens when you take into consideration weapon damage?
if u base it on dmg per atk, axe will most likely out dmg a fist
but if u base it per second thats a different story
of cors to find out how many seconds u need to outdmg an axe, atkrate, weapon,refinement,gears,buffs and a lot of things are to be considered to find that out, so u will only find dat out through experience in game, we fist are able to say we can outdmg axe is becoz almost every BM peeps in every server is an axe and only few had gone through the fist path meaning we most likeyly had the chance to try and test our capabilities againts axe than axe to fist.Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »Also, what happens when one weapon hits it's maximum most of the time?
I say ouch,Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »Why do you think that Fists hit with their maximum most of the time?
well i guess the fact that we atk a lot more often than axe so we have a lot more chance of hitting with our max most of the time but then again its a matter of chance.
I say ouchLyndura - Lost City wrote: »What when other weapons are able to do it too?
Exactly, you don't know if it is or not.[/QUOTE]
no one really does i think, he was just making an example so no one really has the right to say which one is right or which formula is wrong, so id rather stick to the fact that every weapon class in BM were all made equally not by dmg/str/atkrate/ or whatevs but they all have their own weakness and strengths so its up to the player to cover those holes and up those strengths.
All in all player have their own tactics have their own ideas on how to fight a fist, how to fight an axe or other weapon class or race so it all comes down to is if u can pull off all those stunts which u will throw against fist and same to what fists throw to axes.
an example is what axes say "oww when we see u spark we will just kite u" do they really run when it comes to 1 on 1? axe are too damn proud to accept that fist will kill them if they dont take proper precautions against us so ending up them getting killed.
Same to fist so many think having high dex will save their **** against melee class that they forget to strengthen their str and vit, that even though their enemy missses a lot they deal so puny dmg to even hurt their enemy and get killed when one or 2 or 3 hits land on them.
So the never ending possibilities will pop out not unless everyone would get all their endgame weapons and gears and all to +15 refinements b:shockedb:shocked (well not even sure if it will end there) but till then this civil war wont end unless the one side accepts defeat b:shockedb:shocked0 -
I like how everyone tries to do calculations to prove fist is so godly.
If fist are so brokenly good why don't more people use them?
I like the fact the OP talked to people in other servers (aka servers that don't have same level cap or genies)
Sure I've seen fists **** on PRIVATE servers.
Not going to happen here.
Oh btw kind of my whole point is beat me in pvp 1 v 1 and ill shut up.
other wise watch as I pop a accuracy powder stun and 2 hit you fist users.b:cute
Sinnerz Lost City PvP.0 -
kind of funny if what about weapon hits the maximun all the time?
what about if it always hit the minimum everytime? b:chuckle
The axes user will most likely have more str ( more phy defence and more phy attack) while the fist will have more dex (more crits, and more evasion).
again we dont know if this is directly proporcional but again it appears to be balanced.0 -
I like how everyone tries to do calculations to prove fist is so godly.
If fist are so brokenly good why don't more people use them?
I like the fact the OP talked to people in other servers (aka servers that don't have same level cap or genies)
Sure I've seen fists **** on PRIVATE servers.
Not going to happen here.
Oh btw kind of my whole point is beat me in pvp 1 v 1 and ill shut up.
other wise watch as I pop a accuracy powder stun and 2 hit you fist users.
IMO axes are better for the AOE, thats why many BM use axes. Again the high dex on fists do not help on defence vs magic classes in PVP.0 -
As far as PvP goes, I'm not sure how many people will actually sit there long enough for a fist BM to kill them.0
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where did u get 0.5? is this equation atk per second? or per atk? coz if its per atk theres no way a fist can out dmg an axe in a single atk... Can u explain the numbers and where u get them
100*1.43=143=>754+143=897
100*0.83=83=>805+83=888
I forgot to explain something, lets say that you start refining your weapon (btw you can find cheap fists on auction with several level of refinement sinced nobody wants them lol)
Lest say that you get both weapons to +4. This is what happens:
84*1.43=120.12 fists
84*0.83=69.72 axes
adding refinements to weapons
754+120.12=874.12
805+83= 888
again they have almost the same attack rate.
If you go to the extreme (I dont think anyone gets there but just in case) by having them to +12
750*1.43=1072.5
750*0.83=622.5
fists=754+1072.5= 2,580.5
axes=805+622= 1,427
Again this is just to explain how fists can outdamage axes by means of refines and shards.0 -
EricaPn - Heavens Tear wrote: »ohh i almost forgot here's an example for ya:
my damage Fist stats is : 5300 - 5500
and here's my friend's axe damge is 4200- 8000
both same lvl
see the difference? if you dont then dont bother xDDD
havn't read all of the post, stopped when i read this, fist dmg is more constant, and quicker attack speed so offcourse you outdamage other weapon users in the long run, for pvp thou, axes are best, purely for the spike dmg, and it is very rare for a pk to be 1v1, if it was 1v1 then a fist user would always come out on top comparded to other types of bm's, UNLESS the axe user gets lucky with a crit zerk.0 -
the dmg of a fist user in pvp is more dependant on being able to keep your opponent stunned/frozen rather than how fast you attack. assuming a fist bm can pull off roar>demon spark>1-2 attacks>spark pot>bolt of tyresus, you have a reasonable chance of killing your opponent if your opponent doesn't manage to pop a vacuity powder in between any stuns0
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Nassinew - Sanctuary wrote: »havn't read all of the post, stopped when i read this, fist dmg is more constant, and quicker attack speed so offcourse you outdamage other weapon users in the long run, for pvp thou, axes are best, purely for the spike dmg, and it is very rare for a pk to be 1v1, if it was 1v1 then a fist user would always come out on top comparded to other types of bm's, UNLESS the axe user gets lucky with a crit zerk.
I stop reading yours since probably we all know that toob:chuckle0 -
Yes, those are to be considered that is why its up to the player how he fights in pvp, its not the char that makes the player strong its the player that makes the character strong, so each and every player has their playing tactics and whatevs... but then again we are compraing fist to an axe and nothing else since this is to clear out why fist are bing put down when compared to axe. We fist are defending ourselves,showing axe bms that they are not as so powerful as they think and we fist arent as weak as axes think we are.
This game is much more gear-class based than skill based just like most MMORPGs out there. There reasons why Fist Warriors just don't cut it in PvP is because most of that PvP happens in the -Air- or in TW.
In TW no one that goes melee range to hit will get focus fired and die. Hell the only thing that gets to survive is a WB in tiger form with a lot of HP, EPs spamming heals and the WB using pots/turtle. An Axe warrior doesn't break the fight line to go fight melee range either. Most warriors will go in stun a general area, use an aoe skill or 2 and then they will kite back to their guild's fight line. Else that would just mean getting focused and dieing. Basically a Fist Warrior wouldn't get to do any damage there, they would get focused and die.
In Air PvP, if you don't have one of the fastest mount around, you will have a hard time catching up to your targets, so you will have to go for stationary targets that are already busy fighting and such. That goes for every warrior though. The difference is that an axe warrior as an additional stun that will keep the target stunned and chain stunned long enough to kill that one person, or those said person. Spear warriors have ranged and semi-ranged skills so they don't need to worry so much about that. Fist warriors have 1 reliable stun, and no ranged skill. Anyways, a fist warrior shouldn't be spamming skills at all because that would ruin their DPS. That being said you don't really have anything to keep your target standing still long enough to kill it. (You need to break that hiero and then kill the person). Doubt no one is dumb enough and stand still while they're getting it by a fist warrior when they can just kite that person off.
Another advantage axe users have is that they have those berserk weapons that most fist/spear warriors will never get because most belial souls will be used on Gx at the exception of dumb people. Berserk is what gives Melee Classes some power in PvP, else you're not deadly, just annoying. Forgot to add that most spear skills have higher base damage than axe warriors skills so they can still deal some decent damage endgame + they have range. So that makes them a 2nd option.
While Genies do give some skills that could help a fist user standing still for a longer period of time because of how broken those genies are. It definitely makes the class better than it was in PvP but unless you have some pretty godly gear I doubt the DPS will ever be enough to be compared the power that zerk gives to axe users. But if you do get that kind of gear then I'm pretty sure a fist warrior could deal some amazing damage out there.0 -
And who doesn't with godly gear?0
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Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »And who doesn't with godly gear?
True enough. But some people still manage to be useless with +8 gear and +11/12 weapons so I dunno. b:surrender0 -
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Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »is there anyone with +12? lol
I believe I know 3-4 people with +12 weapon on LC. And a quite a few more +10-+110 -
I know 6~7 with +12 (not sure if Noodles already +12'ed his bow, it was +11 last night), and there are a lot of people with +10/11.0
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Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »I know 6~7 with +12 (not sure if Noodles already +12'ed his bow, it was +11 last night), and there are a lot of people with +10/11.
I want to get my bow to +12 since my current bow is my last one0 -
Crimson Horn: Soulsmasher or Heaven Shatterer?
Those are the end game bows for our class :P0 -
Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »Crimson Horn: Soulsmasher or Heaven Shatterer?
Those are the end game bows for our class :P
I cant get that bow, then I would not have enough str for my final axesb:surrender0 -
i Like How Everyone Tries To Do Calculations To Prove Fist Is So Godly.
If Fist Are So Brokenly Good Why Don't More People Use Them?
I Like The Fact The Op Talked To People In Other Servers (aka Servers That Don't Have Same Level Cap Or Genies)
Sure I've Seen Fists **** On Private Servers.
Not Going To Happen Here.
Oh Btw Kind Of My Whole Point Is Beat Me In Pvp 1 V 1 And Ill Shut Up.
Other Wise Watch As I Pop A Accuracy Powder Stun And 2 Hit You Fist Users.
If You're In Heaven's Tear.... And Want To Try And Prove That You Can 2 Hit Me.... You'll Find Out The Very Very Hard Way...
You're Talking As If You Already Know How Fist Are..but You Dont..
Stop Being A Kid
No Bm In All 5 Server Can 2-3 Hit Me Even If I Stand Still... Dont You Ever Forget That... Go To Heaven's Tear And Ask For Me Be4 You Have Both Fist In Your Mouth[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
EricaPn - Heavens Tear wrote: »If You're In Heaven's Tear.... And Want To Try And Prove That You Can 2 Hit Me.... You'll Find Out The Very Very Hard Way...
You're Talking As If You Already Know How Fist Are..but You Dont..
Stop Being A Kid
No Bm In All 5 Server Can 2-3 Hit Me Even If I Stand Still... Dont You Ever Forget That... Go To Heaven's Tear And Ask For Me Be4 You Have Both Fist In Your Mouth
perfect world is serious business."you want 1by1 go play tekken la"0 -
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reading this thread makes me cry. i can't comprehend how flawed some of your guys' logic is. please don't say fists would be good but people won't stand there to tank the damage. give me a ****ing break. no weapon will be very good when no one is going to stand there and tank it. that's why we can stun people for 3 to 30+ seconds. fists aren't good at all until endgame when attack speed stacks so high with 99 gear. get 2 pieces of 99 heavy, 2 99 light, decedal gods. that alone with no bonuses is 2.5 hits per second. now use cyclone kick, that's 2.8 per second. relentless courage: 3.25...
when you have 20% crit nothing will out dps fists. throw in the fact that refines and soulstones go further with fists it's quite obvious if you don't already have a preconceived rage against fists
i'm not saying anyone who isn't fists blows, i'm saying anyone who uses 1 weapon endgame blows. use axe for leveling, tw, aoes and stunlock. use fists between stuns for best dps in pvp and use spear (farstrike, dragon emerge, smack) for range. go visit any chinese or japanese official server b:cute0
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