Archer Attack Speed Basics
Comments
-
Fixed. Thanx.0
-
Round to the nearest valid Attack Duration (0.05 increment). Demon sparked 25%;
2.00----1.43----0.70----default
2.00----1.67----0.60----weapon
2.50----2.00----0.50----bracer
3.33----2.22----0.45----set
3.33----2.50----0.40----accessory
5.00----3.33----0.30----armor
5.00----4.00----0.25----cape
5.00----5.00----0.20----tome
Round to the nearest valid Attack Duration (0.05 increment). Red Bubble 20%;
1.67----1.43----0.70----default
2.00----1.67----0.60----weapon
2.50----2.00----0.50----bracer
2.50----2.22----0.45----set
3.33----2.50----0.40----accessory
5.00----3.33----0.30----armor
5.00----4.00----0.25----cape
5.00----5.00----0.20----tome
Round to the nearest valid Attack Duration (0.05 increment). Demon Quickshot 30%;
2.000----1.43----0.70----default
2.500----1.67----0.60----weapon
2.500----2.00----0.50----bracer
3.330----2.22----0.45----set
3.330----2.50----0.40----accessory
5.000----3.33----0.30----armor
5.000----4.00----0.25----cape
10.00----5.00----0.20----tome b:shocked0 -
Round to the nearest valid Attack Duration (0.05 increment). Demon sparked 25%;
2.00----1.43----0.70----default
2.00----1.67----0.60----weapon
2.50----2.00----0.50----bracer
3.33----2.22----0.45----set
3.33----2.50----0.40----accessory
5.00----3.33----0.30----armor
5.00----4.00----0.25----cape
5.00----5.00----0.20----tome
Round to the nearest valid Attack Duration (0.05 increment). Red Bubble 20%;
1.67----1.43----0.70----default
2.00----1.67----0.60----weapon
2.50----2.00----0.50----bracer
2.50----2.22----0.45----set
3.33----2.50----0.40----accessory
5.00----3.33----0.30----armor
5.00----4.00----0.25----cape
5.00----5.00----0.20----tome
Round to the nearest valid Attack Duration (0.05 increment). Demon Quickshot 30%;
2.000----1.43----0.70----default
2.500----1.67----0.60----weapon
2.500----2.00----0.50----bracer
3.330----2.22----0.45----set
3.330----2.50----0.40----accessory
5.000----3.33----0.30----armor
5.000----4.00----0.25----cape
10.00----5.00----0.20----tome b:shocked
Based on these numbers, I think it is fair to say that the person who claimed the attack rate was capped at 5.00 attacks a second was fooled by the illusion created with such truncations and roundings.0 -
Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »Based on these numbers, I think it is fair to say that the person who claimed the attack rate was capped at 5.00 attacks a second was fooled by the illusion created with such truncations and roundings.
Were those theoretical numbers or real ones?0 -
Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »Were those theoretical numbers or real ones?
The person PM'd me saying he had a lv150 EA fist build and had told me it was impossible to pass 5.00 attacks a second.
If your method of calculation is correct Elena, and Kalden's numbers are correct, I can draw a logical preliminary conclusion, unless he provides visual evidence, that he was fooled by this illusion and that the max attack rate is not capped at 5.00.0 -
Bump for Telarith.Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »Now maybe a refresher guide for archers on -interval again
Some cluedark archer from sanc has been arguing bad points, but the final one is that slings can get up to 5 attacks per second. Only level 69, maybe one of you guys can set them straight on reality
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=5180842&postcount=80 -
Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »-- Appendix: Examples of Attack Rate % Increase Computations --
This is the set of steps you need to compute your new Attack Speed. Remember that all math is done using Attack Durations, not Attack Speeds.
1) Convert Attack Speed to Attack Duration (use The Chart above).
2) Use this formula to compute your new Attack Duration:
____New Attack Duration = Attack Duration * (1.00 - Speed Increase %)
3) Truncate to 2 decimal places.
4) Round to the nearest valid Attack Duration (0.05 increment).
5) Convert rounded Attack Duration to Attack Speed (use The Chart above).
There is an flaw in this math I believe, as it was cited on my DPS thread (dead now, made under fourm name) I used this example:
Using the fist decide w/ -.1 intervel
.7 -.1 = .6
New attack duration = .6
Now, Increase attack speed by 100% with a (fictional) new uber skill:
.6 * (100 - 100) = 0
So now attack duration is:
# of attacks/0, it's impossible to divide by zero.
To finish this off, your attacking infinate times per second because you increased attack rate by 100%, however, logically increasing anything by 100% doubles it, not makes it infinity b:shocked.
As a counter example I propose a new formula:
1: attack speed of fists is 1.43, that converts to .7
2: .7 - .1 from decide = .6
This is where we differ
3: change back to attack speed .6 = 1.666... thats 1.65
4:1.65 * (1.00 + 1.00) = 3.30 attack rate
3.30 is double, thats logical.Infliction - Raging Tide: 99% of bm's go fist/axe end game and they will side with it because thats what they do. I am a pure axe bm and I have as much DPS as a bm with 3.33 APS and +6 Decides.
Kupuntu - Sanctuary: *waits for a response from someone who has done the math*
Okeano - Harshlands: Or we can just kick him in the nuts0 -
BurningShock - Harshlands wrote: »As a counter example I propose a new formula:
Do you have an example that supports your math? I basically reverse-engineered the algorithm based on examples people have posted on this thread, as well as from my own experience. I am quite interested in any examples that prove my formula false.
Also, I too can create a fictional Bracers that give -1.5 seconds to attack interval. Given that a crossbow has an attack interval of 1.5 seconds, that would be an attack interval of zero seconds.
How would your formula process handle this division-by-zero case, given a fictional piece of equipment with such statistics?0 -
I just got really lucky and crafted hypothetical bracers with -600 seconds of interval.
I kill stuff 10 minutes before I start attacking b:victory[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Refining Simulator - aster.ohmydays.net/pw/refiningsimulator.html (don't use IE)
Genie Calculator - aster.ohmydays.net/pw/geniecalculator.html - (don't use IE)
Socket Calculator - aster.ohmydays.net/pw/socketcalculator.html0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »I just got really lucky and crafted hypothetical bracers with -600 seconds of interval.
I kill stuff 10 minutes before I start attacking b:victory
b:shocked
you eated teh time slushy?
b:puzzleddarthpanda16: Firefox crashed on me. Aryannamage: I don't think I am a GM that would be new.
Hawk:Do this. closing thread
frankieraye: I'll see if we can replace the woman with a stick figure and the tiger fangs with marshmallows.//Issues like these need to get escalated quickly to minimize the damage.
Kantorek: Yeah.. you should try it. It's awesome.
Sihndra: Nope- not currently possible under any circumstances. Sorry.
LokisDottir: I mean...not haunting the forums, nope nope..
Konariraiden: You don't know what you are up against. You will lose.
Waiting for...Hamster Packs!
58% chance to get tokens
41% chance to get an all class pet hamster....but they has already been freed by the magic hamster.
1% chance to get ban hamstered with the message "Hamsters United!"
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
why are you trying to push the concept of a 100% attack speed boost, it doesnt make the math flawed.BurningShock - Harshlands wrote: »There is an flaw in this math I believe, as it was cited on my DPS thread (dead now, made under fourm name) I used this example:
Using the fist decide w/ -.1 intervel
.7 -.1 = .6
New attack duration = .6
Now, Increase attack speed by 100% with a (fictional) new uber skill:
.6 * (100 - 100) = 0
So now attack duration is:
# of attacks/0, it's impossible to divide by zero.
To finish this off, your attacking infinate times per second because you increased attack rate by 100%, however, logically increasing anything by 100% doubles it, not makes it infinity b:shocked.
As a counter example I propose a new formula:
1: attack speed of fists is 1.43, that converts to .7
2: .7 - .1 from decide = .6
This is where we differ
3: change back to attack speed .6 = 1.666... thats 1.65
4:1.65 * (1.00 + 1.00) = 3.30 attack rate
3.30 is double, thats logical.
#1 100% attack speed boosts dont exist, only 5, 12, and 25/30
#2 100 seems to be a point where the graph is undefined for this formula.
but if it were a 110% increase, for example, the answer would exist
it just would be negative and make no sense
anything greater than or equal to a 100% increase makes no sense
cause its actually not undefined at 0 either, it just doesn't make sense
the game has an odd formula for determining attack speed |:.0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »I just got really lucky and crafted hypothetical bracers with -600 seconds of interval.
I kill stuff 10 minutes before I start attacking b:victory
Tachyon arrows...
Anyways, with regards to the math, you have to look at it from an algorithmic perspective, not a formulaic one. The code base would (hopefully) have checks in place to prevent a division by zero.
For example, I think from various sources that there is a limit of 5 attacks per second (Attack duration of 0.2 seconds). We could easily verify that by have Sir Chezedude equip his fists and gear (which is 5 attacks / sec) and use a genie skill to increase his attack speed. If there is no further speed increase, then that is the limit. Given a limit, there's no way you can have a division-by-zero case.0 -
Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »Do you have an example that supports your math? I basically reverse-engineered the algorithm based on examples people have posted on this thread, as well as from my own experience. I am quite interested in any examples that prove my formula false.
Also, I too can create a fictional Bracers that give -1.5 seconds to attack interval. Given that a crossbow has an attack interval of 1.5 seconds, that would be an attack interval of zero seconds.
How would your formula process handle this division-by-zero case, given a fictional piece of equipment with such statistics?
Simple, I would use logic. I understand you have tested this formula several times, but it simply doesn't hold up in the extreams where it logically should. What is flawed in theory is flawed in practice, this diffrence may well be important at higher attack speeds, let me explain:
With your example, increasing something by 100% makes it attack undefined times, I'm simply stating that that makes 0 sense to me. If you increase something by 100% it doubles. If I was paying you $20 an hour, and increased your paycheck by 100%, you would have $40 an hour earnings now, no?
As for your example, thats also simple. First of all I think you are using a bow, as a crossbow's attack intervel is closer to 1.6. Regardless let me use an example. If I can pick an apple at 1 second per apple, and I get new gloves that let me pick apples 1 second faster per apple, then as soon as I begin to pick apples all the apples have been picked. The diffrence is that this flaw is grounded in reality. X - X = 0. This is true in all cases. Try it out on a x,y cordinate plane, with Y being number of actions and X being time. Find the slope and subtact the slope from it, you have a vertical line, the slope in undefined and infinate actions happen in 0 seconds. Its worth mentioning your formula would have the same result as mine.
Don't think this is so far-fetched, it is already possible to decrease attack intervel to .05 with perfect equipment, 0 attack intervel in just one item away, barring an arbitrary limit on attack speed.
I'll level with you, my theory is based on logic and real world examples, I lack access to numerous examples, but let me give you an experiment to test this with:
items/skills: -.1 intervel bow, -.1 intervel wrists, demon hell spark
Your formula:
1.5 -.1 -.1 = 1.3
1.3 * (1.00-.25) = .975, aprox. attack speed 1/1.03
My formula
1.5 -.1 -.1 = 1.3
1.3 = .77
.77 * (1.00 + .25) = .9625, aprox. attack speed 1.04/1.05
So try that out if you can find the time, post screenys too. For all I know you may be right and PWI simply works outside the realm of reason. b:surrenderInfliction - Raging Tide: 99% of bm's go fist/axe end game and they will side with it because thats what they do. I am a pure axe bm and I have as much DPS as a bm with 3.33 APS and +6 Decides.
Kupuntu - Sanctuary: *waits for a response from someone who has done the math*
Okeano - Harshlands: Or we can just kick him in the nuts0 -
The last two of the three examples I put in the guide are verified from personal experience. The first one is Lady Devoted's example.
For example 2, I had a Wind and the Clouds (which is 0.77 attacks / sec), and I had used a genie skill which increased attack speed by 12%. This was before the big genie patch, so I'm not sure if Relentless Courage still gives that number as a bonus.
So, the setup is:
Current Attack Speed: 0.77 Attacks / Second
Bonus % Increase: 12% Speed Increase
The result I saw in my char menu was:
Resulting Attack Speed: 0.91 Attacks / Second.
The example in the guide already shows the computation using my method, and I get the result that is shown in my character menu.
Using your method:
(1/1.30) * (1.00 + 0.12) = 0.86153846153846153846153846153846 attacks / sec
This is not the result shown in the character menu.
I believe this is more of a translation issue than a math issue. Instead of "Increase Attack Rate by X%", it should be phrased "Decrease Attack Interval by X%". At least, that is what I have been able to figure out.
Also, from a programming perspective, it is much easier to handle this math if things are done using attack intervals, not attack speeds. The attack intervals are all at discrete values of 0.05 multiples. The attack speed shown in the char menu is probably just something displayed that is computed after the attack interval stored (Observer-Subject Design Pattern).
EDIT: Corrected to use 1/1.30 instead of 0.77. Stupid me...0 -
Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »I believe this is more of a translation issue than a math issue. Instead of "Increase Attack Rate by X%", it should be phrased "Decrease Attack Interval by X%". At least, that is what I have been able to figure out.
That... makes sense. b:surrender That statement pretty much destroyed my argument, thanks for answering my questions.
By the way, I thought I should mention it is now possible to attack 20 times per second b:shocked observe:
Fists have .7 attack intervel, so to reach .05 intervel unbuffed you have to achieve -.65 intervel
-.15 fists (custom made fists, 3 -.5 mods, 1/26,200,000 chance of creating)
-.15 wrist (same story ^^)
-.1 R8 top
-.05 Life everlasting
-.05 Lunar glade cape
-.05 TT legs recast at palace of nirvana
-.05 TT99 Ashura legs + boots
-.05 TT99 Lionheart necklace + belt
Thats -.65, tremble in fear, TREMBLE!!!b:angryb:shockedInfliction - Raging Tide: 99% of bm's go fist/axe end game and they will side with it because thats what they do. I am a pure axe bm and I have as much DPS as a bm with 3.33 APS and +6 Decides.
Kupuntu - Sanctuary: *waits for a response from someone who has done the math*
Okeano - Harshlands: Or we can just kick him in the nuts0 -
BurningShock - Harshlands wrote: »That... makes sense. b:surrender That statement pretty much destroyed my argument, thanks for answering my questions.
By the way, I thought I should mention it is now possible to attack 20 times per second b:shocked observe:
Fists have .7 attack intervel, so to reach .05 intervel unbuffed you have to achieve -.65 intervel
-.15 fists (custom made fists, 3 -.5 mods, 1/26,200,000 chance of creating)
-.15 wrist (same story ^^)
-.1 R8 top
-.5 Life everlasting
-.5 Lunar glade cape
-.5 TT legs recast at palace of nirvana
-.5 TT99 Ashura legs + boots
-.5 TT99 Lionheart necklace + belt
Thats -.65, tremble in fear, TREMBLE!!!b:angryb:shocked
Actually... I don't think you can get Ashura's bonus if you recast the legs to nirvana legs. 2 slots are taken by lionheart, one is taken by rank8, legs are taken which leaves wrists and boots.
Going for either is only -0.15 (Ashura wrist + Ashura bonus or 3x-0.05s wrist).
Meaning total is -0.6s interval.0 -
Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »Actually... I don't think you can get Ashura's bonus if you recast the legs to nirvana legs. 2 slots are taken by lionheart, one is taken by rank8, legs are taken which leaves wrists and boots.
Going for either is only -0.15 (Ashura wrist + Ashura bonus or 3x-0.05s wrist).
Meaning total is -0.6s interval.
Maybe, maybe not. I've seen to proof for or against recast leggings retaining their set skills. If they don't, thats all well and good, If they do, theres a small chance of some serious OP archerism going on there...Infliction - Raging Tide: 99% of bm's go fist/axe end game and they will side with it because thats what they do. I am a pure axe bm and I have as much DPS as a bm with 3.33 APS and +6 Decides.
Kupuntu - Sanctuary: *waits for a response from someone who has done the math*
Okeano - Harshlands: Or we can just kick him in the nuts0 -
omgwtfbbqhax0
-
The attack rate posted on the first page are correct but for one exception. The game does not allow you to exceed attack rate of 5.00 no matter how much -interval you have.
I have a base attack rate of 5.00 using lunar claws and it does not change at all if i use skills or apocs that increase my attack rate.youtube.com/chezedude0 -
Chezedude - Dreamweaver wrote: »The attack rate posted on the first page are correct but for one exception. The game does not allow you to exceed attack rate of 5.00 no matter how much -interval you have.
I have a base attack rate of 5.00 using lunar claws and it does not change at all if i use skills or apocs that increase my attack rate.
My thanx; I had been waiting for someone to be able to confirm this. I'll update it shortly.0 -
I have no idea wtf none of that means, its like greek to me. but good job.Is Now On Lost City Under The Name; Mortyy0
-
BurningShock - Harshlands wrote: »That... makes sense. b:surrender That statement pretty much destroyed my argument, thanks for answering my questions.
Anytime. If it makes you feel any better, I did not realize the semantic error until having this discussion with you.
If others feel that I have a correct interpretation of the intention behind the property, I will update guide to indicate so.0 -
if you wear as much -0.1 reducing stuff as you can then you can take almost 40% off your attack time. thats a huge amount more if you use spark burst+ in pvp0
-
BurningShock - Harshlands wrote: »That... makes sense. b:surrender That statement pretty much destroyed my argument, thanks for answering my questions.
By the way, I thought I should mention it is now possible to attack 20 times per second b:shocked observe:
Fists have .7 attack intervel, so to reach .05 intervel unbuffed you have to achieve -.65 intervel
-.15 fists (custom made fists, 3 -.5 mods, 1/26,200,000 chance of creating)
-.15 wrist (same story ^^)
-.1 R8 top
-.5 Life everlasting
-.5 Lunar glade cape
-.5 TT legs recast at palace of nirvana
-.5 TT99 Ashura legs + boots
-.5 TT99 Lionheart necklace + belt
Thats -.65, tremble in fear, TREMBLE!!!b:angryb:shocked
You're missing a 0 from a lot of stuff there, you're totaling -2.9, not -0.65.If you disregard what I say because of who I am or because of the contents of what I said, you are a fool.
Everyone wants to be different, but when you're different you wish you were normal.0 -
Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »You're missing a 0 from a lot of stuff there, you're totaling -2.9, not -0.65.
Yes... Sorry about that, fixed it.Infliction - Raging Tide: 99% of bm's go fist/axe end game and they will side with it because thats what they do. I am a pure axe bm and I have as much DPS as a bm with 3.33 APS and +6 Decides.
Kupuntu - Sanctuary: *waits for a response from someone who has done the math*
Okeano - Harshlands: Or we can just kick him in the nuts0 -
Yawn can you keep the useless theories out of here? Capped attackspeed is capped attackspeed, you're never gonna go over 5/sec.
And is 0.225 really rounded down? 'cause, for example, what happens if you have an interval of .5 and you use triple spark, .375 = .35 or .4?Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.0 -
Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »And is 0.225 really rounded down? 'cause, for example, what happens if you have an interval of .5 and you use triple spark, .375 = .35 or .4?
That's the best I can come up with. I originally had "Always round down". Now it's "Truncate to 2 decimal places, then round to nearest".
Here's the post that I explain what I did: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=5097422#post5097422
Also, in the original post, Example 3 has an attack interval 1.276 seconds / attack, which ends up as 1.25 seconds / attack. That was a real example from my gear at the time.
If you can find a counter-example, please tell me. What I wrote up is my best attempt at reverse-engineering the math.0 -
From what I've seen testing with daggers and fists on my BM/sin with some interval gear and relentless courage, rounding down to the nearest value has worked pretty much every time. Dunno about other weapons though.Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.0
-
Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »From what I've seen testing with daggers and fists on my BM/sin with some interval gear and relentless courage, rounding down to the nearest value has worked pretty much every time. Dunno about other weapons though.
They probably use the same math.
Can you give me an example of the existing interval and the %increase?0 -
1. Dagger without any interval gear + 56 str Relentless Courage (19%)
.8-(.8*.19) = .648 (I get 1.54, .65 interval)
2. Dagger + -.1 gaunts + Relentless Courage
.7-(.7*.19) = .567 (I get 1.82, .55 interval)
3. Fist with -.05 + -.1 gaunts + Relentless Courage
.55-(.55*.19) = .4455 (I get 2.22, .45 interval)
4. Fist with -.05 + -.1 gaunts + Lv5 Cyclone Heel (7%)
.55-(.55*.07) = .5115 (I get 2.00, .50 interval)Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.0
Categories
- All Categories
- 182K PWI
- 683 Official Announcements
- 2 Rules of Conduct
- 264 Cabbage Patch Notes
- 61.2K General Discussion
- 1.5K Quality Corner
- 11K Suggestion Box
- 77.4K Archosaur City
- 3.5K Cash Shop Huddle
- 14.3K Server Symposium
- 18.1K Dungeons & Tactics
- 2K The Crafting Nook
- 4.9K Guild Banter
- 6.6K The Trading Post
- 28K Class Discussion
- 1.9K Arigora Colosseum
- 78 TW & Cross Server Battles
- 337 Nation Wars
- 8.2K Off-Topic Discussion
- 3.7K The Fanatics Forum
- 201 Screenshots and Videos
- 22.8K Support Desk