kowlin

tweakz

_River - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Okay, first, who is the 89 veno here tweakz? ME.

Invoke authority - One of the 25 Rules of Disinformation. b:laugh

You are 87

Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. -Another one of the 25 Rules of Disinformation.

IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO PLAYSTYLE. Get it? Got it? GOOD.

You style sucks poopie. Get it? Got it? GOOD.

I am not selling kowlins on anyone.

Sure looks that way to me.

I am answering the OP's original QUESTION, unlike you, however who continues to be immature about the whole thing and make this thread continuously get off topic.

Kinda like this post I'm quoting from?

If you actually paid attention to the OPs question, instead of tearing other's opinions/experiences apart, perhaps you'd be more appreciated by people around here.

If the TOS was enforced here, we wouldn't have the **** you and your friends dish out here.

No one likes your opinions when you sit there and say "eat ****/drink pee". That's VERY immature.

Ditto poopface.

You asked me why I used kowlins. I told you. Its not my fault you call me a liar. Kowlins can lure with debuffs, yes. I've lured in lunar on shoveals and been able to stow the pet before it died. its not a lie.

I didn't state it couldn't -liar.

Its possible just takes quick reactions. Yes my pet has died many times, I don't mind I know it comes with the territory. If it bothered me, I would have gotten a different pet. I love my kowlin.

So why not just admit that your kowlin is far inferior as a luring pet?

And for the OPs level, its one of the best lurers for their level. If they want to get a pet with ranged skills, that's up to them. I by no means was trying to sell a kowlin on anyone, was just pointing out why I preferred them.

The following has NOTHING to do with why you prefer them:

Nah kowlin ain't useless if you know how to lure properly. You just don't like them Foxx.

My kowlin is amazing, and I wouldn't trade him for anything. I've also done some customizing on his skills to increase survivability if I need it. But for the most part he is my best lurer. and I have several I can use for luring (armored bear being one of them).

But the speed is good. and since the level is low enough (unlike a glacial maiden) its good for the time being for those venos 60+ until they find something that they think is better or something that suits their style a bit better. I agree Kowlin isn't for everyone, but for those of us that use them and love them, they are amazing.

**** is amazing I wouldn't trade my **** for anything, I molded my **** and made it better, my **** is fast, praise my ****, praise it! blah blah blah.

You are welcome to voice a reasonable opinion, but deliberately targetting people and calling them liars is unnecessary and uncalled for.

Don't lie = no problem. b:victory

Stop trolling and go back to your little world that you think is so perfect.

Be a good little doobie and recycle by eating ****.

_River - Heavens Tear

*Rolls eyes* Wow... the immaturity on your part doesn't end.

Your analysis of my original post is inaccurate. I stated that kowlin is good for speed, and the level is low enough (was comparing to the glacial maiden) that level 60+ venos can use it.

That is part of why I prefer the kowlin. If you actually paid attention, instead of telling me I have violated ToS in some way (which I have yet to see), then perhaps this argument wouldn't have happened.

I wasn't aiming to degrade you or insult you by your level I was merely stating as a fact that I was higher level and that my kowlin is higher than anything you could possibly have.

I wasn't lying. Yes you stated you don't desire them for luring, you don't use them for luring, you think they aren't worth it.

However, those of us that do prefer them, all of my argument was based on that. If I think people can do it with a pet they ask about then I say so. I don't beat around the bush or try to convince people otherwise. She asked it people thought it was good. Please it would be appreciated if you stopped taking things out of context.

And since when is my opinion/experience against ToS? Surely there is something wrong with you calling people names and telling them to do absurdly ridiculous things.

(Btw Tear... I understand now what you meant in the herc thread x.x forgive me again).

FYI, I never suggested my kowlin was superior. I was saying its better then my other pets for luring. That's me, no one else. If someone has a better pet for luring, more power to them! I think that's great if they do. I won't put down people for finding something that works best for them.

Again, referencing play style.

_River - Heavens Tear

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=63291

Please reference Forum rules here tweakz.

Insulting others is an offense that isn't tolerated. This is from Dvorak himself.

As for me, I'm removing myself from this conversation so that I don't do something that I regret or that could get me banned.

as for the OP, I hope you were able to see passed the negative in this thread and able to make a decision based on what has been presented.

See ya'll in game for those on HT. ^^

tweakz

_River - Heavens Tear wrote: »

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=63291

Please reference Forum rules here tweakz.

Insulting others is an offense that isn't tolerated. This is from Dvorak himself.

You and your friends have a longer history of it than I do.

As for me, I'm removing myself from this conversation so that I don't do something that I regret or that could get me banned.

As if you're not guilty of a bannable offense already.

_River - Heavens Tear

Please enlighten me on when I have broken the rules and am guilty of a bannable offense?

I recall once and have apologized for it since then and have not done it since.

Care to point out where I have broken any more rules? Please do it in pm's as this is off topic and we don't need to keep spamming this thread more with off topic stuff.

Brael - Dreamweaver

Ok, seriously... why lure with a Kowlin if it dies? On a tough one where it can die, wouldn't it be better to just use tame instead? It will cost you less mana that way.

tweakz

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ok, seriously... why lure with a Kowlin if it dies? On a tough one where it can die, wouldn't it be better to just use tame instead? It will cost you less mana that way.

I don't think she wants her playing style insulted.

Alphae - Lost City

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ok, seriously... why lure with a Kowlin if it dies? On a tough one where it can die, wouldn't it be better to just use tame instead? It will cost you less mana that way.

Then you can lure from outside casting range.

_River - Heavens Tear

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

Then you can lure from outside casting range.

I've done that too ^^ (using tame instead of pets) Works really well and no pets die. But I was mostly referring to wurlord. In the past it was hard for me to lure him and my kowlin would die a lot. But his levels and things have made him better and I also don't do as much TT so I don't have to worry about him dying.

But I agree with you.

tweakz

No problems at all luring wurlord with a marksman. -Doesn't stay in aggro radius long enough.

Brael - Dreamweaver

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

Then you can lure from outside casting range.

Except the 12m for tame is almost always enough. In the few cases it isn't, while tweakz makes his case in a rather combative way, lets say you're trying to lure from 25m, a range attack is 10, so an eldergroth only has to travel 15m. A Kowlin on the other hand is going to have to travel the full distance. A Kowlin is 10.4 speed at 90, and an Eldergroth is 7.8. That means at 90, a Kowlin is going to take 2.4 seconds to reach the target while an Eldergroth is going to take 1.92 seconds. Infact, the Eldergroth is always going to beat the Kowlin until you reach a starting distance of 42m, after that point the Kowlins speed will overcome an Eldergroths range advantage, but that's going to be a very rare situation unless you're intentionally wanting it to occur.

In addition to this, an Eldergroth makes an excellent range tank, which allows you to double up on skills that help it with both pulling and tanking such as Tough, and being a pet that can serve two jobs well (lure and range tank) it's more likely to be closer to you in levels.

Also, the Eldergroth has a higher survival due to the additional hp, defense, evasion, and of course not having to run the full distance to a mob. Remember, range means it can attack from a distance (with higher defense even), a Kowlin though has to charge straight through things, with lower defense.

Really, I think you're just advocating a Kowlin due to hostility towards tweakz rather than any facts which work in the pets favor given its stats and skills.

_River - Heavens Tear wrote: »

IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO PLAYSTYLE. Get it? Got it? GOOD.

Oh, and since I think I know where you're coming form here. While arguing for a Kowlin above another lure pet can be perfectly justified as playstyle it doesn't necessarily mean it's more efficient. You can argue all you want about playstyle and AE grinding with a herc while it tanks 15 things at once, but if the numbers are crunched you'll see it's not optimal. That doesn't make it wrong, but it does mean it shouldn't be advocated as the best way to go unless the person you're responding to happens to want a more fun vs more efficient experience and happens to find that to be fun.

Due to the nature of the argument, the instant a reference to playstyle is made you've pretty much admitted you're using an inferior tool for the job for whatever reason, and there could be 1000 different and valid reasons, yet that doesn't make it the best thing to use, it simply makes it the thing you personally want to use for whatever reason.

Alphae - Lost City

Heh, I've used a knowlin since I had the levels for it TYVM.

I like it just fine, it does the job. Just got to know how to use it, and its limitations.

I'm not denying that a ranged pet makes a good tank. When tweakz decides to come talk in a civilized manner, I'd love to discuss with him/her why I like the knowlin, and why I certainly like ranged pets as well.

XHappyBunnyx - Sanctuary

I didnt read half this thread because its a bunch of people fighting with each other but...

to me.. kowlin is not worth the price at all.
Its stats are very lame besides the movement speed
and why would you want to pay 1mil for a pet your only going to pull with.

I think the cub is best for the money ... has good HP, pdef and mdef.. and you can cast tough before you pull, if needed. Plus its useful other places than just pulling... and of course it has great skills (like stun and ream)

Alphae - Lost City

Knowlin is not 1m on every server *shrugs* And it's easily tamed, I don't ever see too many venos waiting for it.

I bought mine but I'm lazy to a fault. Paid... don't even remember now.

The main reason I like the knowlin is, yes, its speed, and its ability to run out of casting range of mobs before they've finished channeling.

It has its uses, and it has its limits. There is no one pet that is the end-all and be-all of venos, including legendaries. All have their uses and limitations.

_River - Heavens Tear

For the people saying I'm simply arguing with tweakz, I would appreciate you please re-read my statments about why I chose a kowlin, as I stated before the argument why I preferred the kowlin for pulling and was in fact replying to the OPs question. I have already admitted that there are others that do the same, I did not by any means say kowlin was superior. Please stop inferring that I did.

I use my kowlin for tanking certain magic mobs, i.e. in FF single (yes single). I don't care if that means its weak, it gets the job done. I don't just use it for pulling, its also one of my fighting pets, for when I DD.

Yes the stats aren't all that great but its definitely worth the money if you plan to level it. I feel my kowlin would have paid for itself over and over at level 89. (though I dunno how much was spent since it was a gift).

I have also used the shaodu cub and armored bear to pull things as well. Both have the ability to use tough on them and work just as well. Me, personally, I have never used a pet with a ranged attack. So I cannot even tell you how well that works, I know tweakz has, so if you have questions about that, you can try asking.

I also know another person on HT who uses an eldergoth for pulling.

The reference to play style is whatever pet works best for the player. If the eldergoth works best, go for it. If a shaodu works best, more power to you. If you want a kowlin, try it out. There's no harm in trying and if all else fails you could always resell the kowlin if you don't like it.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In the few cases it isn't, while tweakz makes his case in a rather combative way, lets say you're trying to lure from 25m, a range attack is 10, so an eldergroth only has to travel 15m.

Not that I'm doubting you, but where do you get the 10m figure? I've heard it twice now, and am still trying to figure out where it comes from.

A Kowlin on the other hand is going to have to travel the full distance. A Kowlin is 10.4 speed at 90, and an Eldergroth is 7.8. That means at 90, a Kowlin is going to take 2.4 seconds to reach the target while an Eldergroth is going to take 1.92 seconds. Infact, the Eldergroth is always going to beat the Kowlin until you reach a starting distance of 42m, after that point the Kowlins speed will overcome an Eldergroths range advantage, but that's going to be a very rare situation unless you're intentionally wanting it to occur.

First, unless there's something I'm missing, I think your math is slightly off. If you assume the kowlin moves at 10.4 m/s and the eldergoth at 7.8, and the eldergoth needs to be at 10m to attack while the kowlin is at 0m, then the two have equal travel times when:

x/10.4 = (x-10)/7.8
7.8x = 10.4x - 104
2.6x = 104
x = 40

40 meters, not 42.

I also suspect the kowlin's melee range isn't 0 as you've assumed. All the melee weapons have a range of 2.5-3.5m, and the pets seem to stand about the same distance as melee characters. If you assume 3m, and the marksman's ranged attack being 10m, then the trade-off distance becomes:

(x-3)/10.4 = (x-10)/7.8
7.8x - 3*7.8 = 10.4x - 10*10.4
2.6x = 104 - 3*7.8
x = 31

31 meters, which is awfully close to your 25 meter spellcasting distance. In fact, it's the 25m luring distance I consider to be very rare, unless you don't mind getting hit when you lure. Summoning your pet seems to take 3.0 seconds. Figure 3.5-4.0 sec due to network latency. To cover 25m in 3.5 sec, the mob needs to be running 7.1 m/s or faster. FB59 mobs have a speed of 7.4 m/s according to pwdatabase (higher level FB mobs are faster). Outdoor mobs are 4.0 m/s, but I rarely have to lure outdoors. So it would seem luring from 25m guarantees you'll be hit in any FB where you have both the kowlin and marksman available.

And that's assuming that mobs have a melee range of zero, not 3m. If they have a 3m melee range, then the minimum speed to hit you at 25 meters becomes 6.3 m/s. FB51 mobs move at 6.92 m/s. FB39 mobs move at 6.14 m/s. FB29 mobs at 5.6 m/s. So at a 25m luring distance, you're guaranteed to be hit from FB51 on up, and probably will be hit in FB39 too. You could get away with it in FB29, but you're too low level to have a marksman the first time you do FB29. And when you do it later you'll probably be so high level you won't even bother luring.

The bosses all seem to have running speeds of 8.0 m/s. In 3.5-4.0 sec, they will cover 28-32 meters. Add in a fraction of sec to order the pet to attack, and the lower bound of that is right up at the 31 meter tradeoff point where a kowlin is faster. Against bosses, I find I have to start from the maximum possible distance I can in order to have time to lure, unsummon, summon my herc, buff it, and order it to attack the boss. So I don't consider a high distance like 42m to be "very rare". I consider it an absolute necessity.

So it seems to me in every situation where it really matters, the kowlin is faster. About the only place I can think of where the Marksman has a consistent speed advantage is when leveling in Cube room 4. Even when I'm luring for a group, I try to keep my distance so if the tank screws up (or I missed their afk remark), I have time to summon my pet and have it ready to attack before the mob reaches me.

No issues with the rest of what you say. The marksman definitely comes in handy at times. Like I've said before, I have one in my pet bag too.

turtlewax

_River - Heavens Tear wrote: »

...

Reading back, it was not tweakz who started throwing mud. Please stop throwing, everyone, it's pointless, distracting.

_River - Heavens Tear

turtlewax wrote: »

Reading back, it was not tweakz who started throwing mud.

I am not arguing to argue with tweakz. That was the "idea" that others have spoken. This is not part of the topic and I'd appreciate that if anyone else has issues with me either put me on ignore, or please pm me your issues. As for tweakz I won't be replying to any of your comments anymore as I won't be seeing them.

Many thanks Solandri for all of those calculations. Its very informative. Awesome job ^^

Brael - Dreamweaver

I got 10m based on using the casting range of Amplify to measure it. If it's not 10m it's very close. According to the description, Amplify has a distance of 10m, and by having my Eldergroth range tank, and then stand out of range and hit amplify, I could see myself stop running and start casting when my distance was the same as the apes. Which would make the Eldergroth, 10m.

Good catch on the 42, I meant to type 40 but was thinking of 42 because of another post I read earlier today.

You're also right on the melee range, 0 would imply the pet is right on top of what it's tanking, which anyone who's ever seen a pet fight would know isn't the case. I forgot to account for this, and the fact that skills actually have a slightly larger range than melee does which is readily apparent on Wu's or the turtle in 69, or any fight where you're dragging water mobs to the shore. I didn't think about taking this into account but it's obviously a factor.

One thing I think you're forgetting though about lure distance is once you tell the pet to attack, you can run in the other direction. This significantly increases the distance you have without increasing the distance the pet has to run. Say you have a starting distance of 20m to lure. If you have a run speed of 6.4m/s which is simply base speed with Summer's Sprint 2, the Eldergroth will close the distance in 1.28 seconds. In that time, your run speed in the other direction will give you another 8.2m if you time it perfectly. So that distance of 20 is actually 28.2 for you. If you were to do this in FB59, that gives you 3.81 seconds before you're caught. Of course, this is using the numbers of a level 90 Eldergroth and a level 59 player inside an FB that a 59 is likely to do and want to lure in. The Eldergroth (and Kowlin) will be slower with the level distance which gives you more time which alters the comparison a little.

For a non theoretical example, I'm not sure on what this distance is, other than knowing it's in range of telling my pet to attack. Tonight I was running through FB79 to clean out my quest window and when wined there's still 3 guys in Stygen's room behind him. My Eldergroth is currently 74 with me 78, it was able to lure with no problems. In two out of three cases it avoided being hit, and in the third case it was hit once but (barely) survived. I don't see how a Kowlin would have had nearly as good of performance. In all cases, with minimal running away by me (since they were casters, and I didn't want to deal with fighting them in the middle of the room) I had no problems with getting another pet up in time.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

One thing I think you're forgetting though about lure distance is once you tell the pet to attack, you can run in the other direction. This significantly increases the distance you have without increasing the distance the pet has to run. Say you have a starting distance of 20m to lure. If you have a run speed of 6.4m/s which is simply base speed with Summer's Sprint 2, the Eldergroth will close the distance in 1.28 seconds. In that time, your run speed in the other direction will give you another 8.2m if you time it perfectly.

Ok, but why would you want to do this? You always start at a very far distance from the mob. If you're going to close within 20 m to send your pet, why don't you just stop at 40m and send your pet? Basically I'm seeing:

Option 1 - the 40 m lure:
Start at 1000 m
Close to 40 m
Send pet
Do the unsummon / summon thing

Option 2 - the 20 m lure:
Start at 1000 m
Close to 40 m
Close to 20 m
Send pet
Run back to 40m
Do the unsummon / summon thing

The 20m procedure you propose is just the 40m procedure with some unnecessary steps added, and the pet is probably faster than you at covering the distance from 40m to 20m anyway. Is there some situation I'm not thinking of where the 20m lure provides some advantage?

I do something similar when pulling some tough bosses that I need to tank with herc. After I lure and summon the herc, I'll start running away as I command the herc to buff and attack. But this still requires me to begin the lure from max distance; otherwise the boss will run past my herc (it stops moving when it casts its buffs) and then I have to run around in circles until the herc gets aggro (or I die).

Of course, this is using the numbers of a level 90 Eldergroth and a level 59 player inside an FB that a 59 is likely to do and want to lure in. The Eldergroth (and Kowlin) will be slower with the level distance which gives you more time which alters the comparison a little.

This works to the advantage of the kowlin though. From the data I've collected, the pets gain 0.1 m/s every 10 levels (sometimes 9, which I'm assuming is some type of roundoff error).

So at 90 (kowlin = 10.4, marksman = 7.8) the kowlin is 33% faster.
At 60 (should be kowlin = 10.1, marksman = 7.5) then kowlin is 35% faster.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Pets won't charge towards a monster that's too far away - but there's some distance beyond this which they will continue to head for and attack the monster without teleporting back.

So yeah, you can get some extra range out of sending it in and then running away. Whether it's enough extra range to be useful I'm not so sure about.

Of course, you can do that with both normal AND ranged pets, so there's no advantage to either side there.

tweakz

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

Heh, I've used a knowlin since I had the levels for it TYVM.

I like it just fine, it does the job. Just got to know how to use it, and its limitations.

I'm not denying that a ranged pet makes a good tank. When tweakz decides to come talk in a civilized manner, I'd love to discuss with him/her why I like the knowlin, and why I certainly like ranged pets as well.

In the meantime, just keep polluting the thread with bad advice.

Speed when it comes to Eldergoth vs Kowlin is irrelevant, so I don't understand why it's being argued unless you're concerned about shaving a couple seconds off your game play time a day at the risk of adding more. Time in aggro radius is relevant, and is why Kowlins die more frequently than Eldergoth's on boss lures like Wurlord. The same person saying "it gets the job done" is the one who admits to their Kowlin dying. After paying the price for a Kowlin (even if you caught it yourself, you still pay by not selling it), should you have to pay to get it's loyalty back because it failed when a free pet wouldn't?

Unless you need the swirly red light show to tell you when to unsummon your pet, a Kowlin holds no value as a luring pet.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

Speed when it comes to Eldergoth vs Kowlin is irrelevant, so I don't understand why it's being argued unless you're concerned about shaving a couple seconds off your game play time a day at the risk of adding more.

Actually, I find the extra speed to be very useful in TT when I send the pet to lure one of those fast-wandering mobs that travel in packs in TT. It makes it easier to time when they'll meet so the pet will be at the proper distance when I unsummon.

Time in aggro radius is relevant, and is why Kowlins die more frequently than Eldergoth's on boss lures like Wurlord.

Agreed that time in aggro radius is relevant. But when my kowlin takes damage, it's almost never from what I'm luring. It's from when the mob I'm luring is behind other mobs that the pet has to run through. In those circumstances I could see a marksman being better. Otherwise, the time in aggro range seems to be insufficient for the mob to complete an attack for either pet if you're sharp.

The same person saying "it gets the job done" is the one who admits to their Kowlin dying. After paying the price for a Kowlin (even if you caught it yourself, you still pay by not selling it), should you have to pay to get it's loyalty back because it failed when a free pet wouldn't?

The cost to raise a non-CS pet's loyalty is trivial. A few hundred coin. I blow more than that every time I use my genie's extreme poison skill.

tweakz

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

when I send the pet to lure one of those fast-wandering mobs that travel in packs in TT.

Halt pet in mob path, back up. Let mob come to your pet exactly where you want it.

Agreed that time in aggro radius is relevant. But when my kowlin takes damage, it's almost never from what I'm luring. It's from when the mob I'm luring is behind other mobs that the pet has to run through. In those circumstances I could see a marksman being better.

This doesn't demonstrate an advantage of the Kowlin. Any pet can be used to lure.

The cost to raise a non-CS pet's loyalty is trivial. A few hundred coin. I blow more than that every time I use my genie's extreme poison skill.

Haven't used Extreme Poison, but I imagine it saves you time. Pet's dying wastes time. Time is coin, and being nickled and dimed adds up to the total cost of using a Kowlin.

Brael - Dreamweaver

According to this page a sharpshooter has a starting speed of 7.3. Since it's 7.8 at 90 we can assume the .1 per 9 levels is correct (actually, it seems to be about 9.15 levels judging from my own pets) for the ape too. It's speed for the 60's would then be like you said, 7.5 and 10.1. I realize it works in the Kowlin's favor but I'm more interested in being accurate.

The response range for having the pet attack looks to be ~50 meters (measured on a straight section using a combination of pet heals, follow/halt, and dropped items for location markers, it took two 23.7 range heals with just a little distance left over, about the size of melee range to cover it). To get more distance than that, you also have to run away as the pet attacks which at some point makes the pet tether back to you, but I'm not sure on that distance yet.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that most mobs, and none inside of FB59 that I can think of except for the warrior guys in earth, archers, and the lone Gauren Minion at the start only have one attack, everything else has a casting attack it will use at range. The result is that even if something moves considerably faster than you, by stopping to cast you can easily outrun it even without summers. So in reality regardless of which pet is used, you're looking at a situation of sending the pet, unsummoning it, summoning your tank, and moving back to either avoid the nuke or bring the mob to the fight spot you want it in.

The advantage to a closer lure is more speed. The further a pet has to travel, the longer it takes to do something. Using FB59 for example, in water wing if you were stamp farming, about 2/3 of the things you kill need split if you're interested in fighting them solo (which seems to be the most efficient way, atleast up through 77 when I checked) and since there's 73 creatures to kill between the start and the end (9 start, 63 water, 1 boss), that's 49 splits.

Using the Kowlin as it's easily going to be faster at the maximum starting distance of 50, if you focus on long lures that's 4.55 seconds to reach a target (using a FR distance of 4, as it's larger than melee range) and then 6.35 seconds for the target to reach you if it doesn't stop to use a skill. Say you attack the target as soon as your tank is up, which is around 3.5 seconds. You're still looking at about a 10 second lure (4.5+3.5+time for pet to reach the target, plus unknown FR casting time), assuming you minimize downtime to go loot by not looting until you have to run past the loot in the first place.

Using an Eldergoth at lets say a distance of 30, it will take 2.67 seconds to reach the target at which point it can be unsummoned and your target will charge and reach you in 4.05 seconds. This is still within the time to summon a pet so there's no issue, and you'll have about a 7-7.5 second lure.

Now, going back to the number of splits in 59, the difference is 2.5-3 sec per split, with 49 splits so a range of 123-147 seconds in favor of the Eldergoth. Going off my own clear time of ~54 minutes for that wing (since I don't have data from anyone else to compare to), that time savings works out to a 3.79%-4.54% gain, or about enough of a gain to make up for a levels worth of drop reductions. I think that's a decent advantage. Sure there's the risk of being hit, but with mobs in 59 almost all having range attacks, regardless of the pet you use, if the mob closes to within it's casting range of you before the pet gets it, you have to run away to avoid the hit anyways, and both of these examples cut it close enough that that will happen (the only real way to avoid it is to unsummon, summon, then run away while your pet charges), so you're not saving anything hit wise. There's also the earlier mentioned advantage that the Eldergoth can survive much better due to higher evasion, hp, magic def, phys def, and not needing to run through nearly as many targets which in turn works out to a mana and time advantage by not needing to revive the pet and the potential advantage of it being a very effective range tank and lure, saving a pet bag slot and leaving you with one less pet to worry about keeping up to date level wise while being able to use the same skills in both jobs.

I'm trying to think of more level appropriate FB's to compare the two. It would still be better to lure in 51 in your 60's, so the comparison could be made there as well. But, since things run slower and fewer have range attacks I don't see it working in favor of a Kowlin. 69 may be a spot where a Kowlin is superior but having not tried one there I can't say for certain.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

Halt pet in mob path, back up. Let mob come to your pet exactly where you want it.

Below you extoll the virtues of saving time. Then you recommend a procedure which wastes a ton of time as an argument against having a fast pet? Rather than wait for the mobs to pass, run out into their path and park my pet, then run back and wait for the mobs to approach my pet; I think I'll just send my pet immediately thank you very much.

This doesn't demonstrate an advantage of the Kowlin. Any pet can be used to lure.

It demonstrates the advantage for the reason you gave - minimized time within aggro radius. Any pet can be used to lure, but the kowlin spends less time in aggro range than any pet except the marksman.

Haven't used Extreme Poison, but I imagine it saves you time. Pet's dying wastes time. Time is coin, and being nickled and dimed adds up to the total cost of using a Kowlin.

Generally agreed, but reviving a pet only takes 5-6 sec at level 63/73 with about 3 sec to heal it.

If you lure from 40m, the kowlin will save you (40-10)/7.8 - (40-3)/10.4 = 0.288 sec per lure over the marksman. If you figure a pet death costs you 9 sec to recover from, and you assume the marksman never dies, the kowlin would have to die more often than once per 32 lures for the time advantage to favor the marksman. Frankly, that's about the rate that my kowlin ever takes damage, much less dies.

Even if you assumed the pet died once per hour during a TT run making 500k/hr, the opportunity cost of one pet death/hr is 1250 coin. If you're making 500k/hr towards earning 22 mil for a herc, the difference between a pet which never dies and one which dies once per hour is 44 hours vs. 44 hours 6.6 minutes. I think your time is better spent thinking of other ways to reduce the 44 hours, rather than worrying about the 6.6 minutes.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Using the Kowlin as it's easily going to be faster at the maximum starting distance of 50, if you focus on long lures that's 4.55 seconds to reach a target (using a FR distance of 4, as it's larger than melee range) and then 6.35 seconds for the target to reach you if it doesn't stop to use a skill. Say you attack the target as soon as your tank is up, which is around 3.5 seconds. You're still looking at about a 10 second lure (4.5+3.5+time for pet to reach the target, plus unknown FR casting time), assuming you minimize downtime to go loot by not looting until you have to run past the loot in the first place.

Using an Eldergoth at lets say a distance of 30, it will take 2.67 seconds to reach the target at which point it can be unsummoned and your target will charge and reach you in 4.05 seconds. This is still within the time to summon a pet so there's no issue, and you'll have about a 7-7.5 second lure.

Now, going back to the number of splits in 59, the difference is 2.5-3 sec per split

Ok, but why are you comparing lures of the two pets at different distances? If you can summon your pet and get it to attack from a distance of 30 m with the marksman, you can do it with the kowlin. Once you've unsummoned the luring pet, there's no difference between the two, so there's no need for one to be at 30m and the other at 50m. The point I was making was that 30m is an uncomfortably close luring distance with either pet. You're going to have to lure from 35m or 40m minimum with either pet.

And you're leaving out the time it takes you to move the distance from 50m to 30m. That takes time too, a lot more time than it takes the kowlin in fact.

Sure there's the risk of being hit, but with mobs in 59 almost all having range attacks, regardless of the pet you use, if the mob closes to within it's casting range of you before the pet gets it, you have to run away to avoid the hit anyways, and both of these examples cut it close enough that that will happen (the only real way to avoid it is to unsummon, summon, then run away while your pet charges), so you're not saving anything hit wise.

They will start casting long before they reach you, so you have to start the lure further away, which just tilts things more in favor of the kowlin. I've found I can outrun the magical nukes with summer sprint if I run away the moment they stop to cast, but that means I waste a lot of time running back to the fight after the pet has taken aggro. You don't get confirmation that the mob's spell has been aborted, so you tend to run further than you need to.

It's a lot faster just to start from far enough away that the pet can take aggro before the mob even starts casting on me. For archer-type mobs, I can't seem to run far enough away to avoid their ranged attack. So it's imperative to start far enough away for your pet to take aggro.

So again, you have a situation where a further luring distance is advantageous to survival. And in the longer luring distances, the kowlin has the time advantage.

There's also the earlier mentioned advantage that the Eldergoth can survive much better due to higher evasion, hp, magic def, phys def, and not needing to run through nearly as many targets which in turn works out to a mana and time advantage by not needing to revive the pet and the potential advantage of it being a very effective range tank and lure, saving a pet bag slot and leaving you with one less pet to worry about keeping up to date level wise while being able to use the same skills in both jobs.

No arguments there. In fact I recommend a Marksman in those situations. As for saving a pet bag slot, my kowlin does double-duty as debuff pet so it saves a pet slot too.

Brael - Dreamweaver

I was making a comparison for a near/far lure using the best of each. Since the question was about the advantage of being close I was pointing out the difference between using a standard far lure with a Kowlin compared to using a closer lure with an ape. 30 doesn't bother me too much, infact I prefer to lure from close distances even though I'll occasionally take a hit (there's no getting around it if you're close enough, solo or in a squad), in my opinion taking a hit is the entire point of having resists. If I weren't making use of them, then there wouldn't have been a point to giving my genie Tree 10, or spending coin on the shards I did so that I can take 3-4 arrows or 5-6 nukes (plus Bramble, as an option, but there's a good sized opportunity cost to it).

While it does take me more time to move from 50 to 30, I only have to travel it once and even if you lure at 50, once you've killed the mobs in the way you have to move it anyways. A lure is going to travel it atleast once, and the mob you're going after is going to travel it as well. 20m at 6.4 speed is 3.125 seconds. 20m for a Kowlin and then 20m for a 7.4 sec mob is 4.62 seconds. In one lure you've covered that distance, in more than one such as that 4 spawn near the token in water wing, you quickly make it up.

When it comes to spells, I can usually hear them, if not I can see them 90% of the time, either by having it move on the minimap or looking at it and seeing the animation fade or the run animation begin. Archers I can sometimes outrun but it's inconsistent and depends on the individual archer, despite what the DB says, if you watch groups of mobs, you'll sometimes see them separate due to having different speeds, without improved speed being on them.

Anyways, while a Kowlin is faster at those longer distances, assuming it's one where it will survive, as I pointed out before there's a decent time advantage to using a short distance instead and that's one of the situations where the Eldergoth is superior. That's why I used different distances, it was to compare each in it's ideal setting, to compare otherwise wouldn't be fair to a Kowlin since it would be out of it's element.

For a debuff pet as a Kowlin that's a fair point, but I'm not sure what skills other than Slow are really both good lure and debuff skills. There's much more cross over with lure/range tank as both focus on pet buffs which don't really care what the pets job is.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I was making a comparison for a near/far lure using the best of each. Since the question was about the advantage of being close I was pointing out the difference between using a standard far lure with a Kowlin compared to using a closer lure with an ape. 30 doesn't bother me too much, infact I prefer to lure from close distances even though I'll occasionally take a hit (there's no getting around it if you're close enough, solo or in a squad), in my opinion taking a hit is the entire point of having resists.

I see. But in the context of the original discussion:

When luring nearby, you have to be willing to take a hit. So the mobs you're luring can't be super-strong boss-types - the damage they do must be low to moderate. So it doesn't really matter if the kowlin gets hit. Therefore the marksman's ranged attack confers little to no advantage.

You lure from far away when you definitely don't want to get hit. e.g. boss-type mobs. Kowlin has the advantage here due to covering the distance in about 1.6 sec less time.

Boss is "hiding" behind a bunch of aggro mobs. You lure from far away to maximize time you have to summon your tank pet. Kowlin has the same speed advantage, but eldergoth has a much greater survival advantage here.

While it does take me more time to move from 50 to 30, I only have to travel it once and even if you lure at 50, once you've killed the mobs in the way you have to move it anyways. A lure is going to travel it atleast once, and the mob you're going after is going to travel it as well. 20m at 6.4 speed is 3.125 seconds. 20m for a Kowlin and then 20m for a 7.4 sec mob is 4.62 seconds. In one lure you've covered that distance, in more than one such as that 4 spawn near the token in water wing, you quickly make it up.

Ok, but that is very different from the original suggestion to run from 50 to 30, send pet, run back to 50, complete the lure, and summon your tank pet. Like I said above, if you can make the lure from 30 work reliably, then it doesn't really matter whether you do it with the kowlin or the marksman.

Basically I'm struggling to see any advantage of the marksman as a lurer except in cases where you have to send the pet through a gauntlet of mobs to pull a boss. And even there the kowlin has the speed advantage since you want to pull bosses from max range. I suppose the marksman has an advantage if you expect the pet to get hit, but my kowlin only gets hit about once every 20-30 lures. You're asking me to give up ~1.5 sec speed advantage on 20-30 lures so my pet will take 7% less damage in just 1 of those 20-30 lures.

You make an argument for 30 m lures, but the marksman only has a 0.032 sec speed advantage at that distance. That's one frame if your video card is pumping out 31 frames per second. I highly doubt that time advantage offsets the increased risk of getting hit at that distance. Most people won't even notice it. It takes 10x longer to blink your eye - if you're worried about time differences this small, you should be taking care not to blink when luring.

That's why I used different distances, it was to compare each in it's ideal setting, to compare otherwise wouldn't be fair to a Kowlin since it would be out of it's element.

You're making an incorrect assumption that the longest distance is ideal for the kowlin. The longer distance maximizes the speed advantage of the kowlin compared to the marksman, but it says nothing about its idealness as a luring distance when you're looking at the kowlin on its own.

If you can make an marksman lure work from 30m, a kowlin lure from 30m works with the same benefits and risks. (Except for the case I listed above where you're luring through a gauntlet of mobs.) So you should be comparing kowlin at 30m to marksman at 30m (marksman has 0.03 sec advantage), and kowlin at 50m to marksman at 50m (kowlin has 1.6 sec advantage).

tweakz

Below you extoll the virtues of saving time. Then you recommend a procedure which wastes a ton of time as an argument against having a fast pet?

Ouch, you got me. Kudos. b:victory I am much more comfortable with the time wasting method though as my timing isn't the best. -Well that or lag issues. Much the same reason I stick with the not so reflex dependent pets. I wouldn't call this play style.. I'd call it: I suck and need all the advantages I can get.

It demonstrates the advantage for the reason you gave - minimized time within aggro radius. Any pet can be used to lure, but the kowlin spends less time in aggro range than any pet except the marksman.

Sharpshooter actually beats both, and not sure about the cactus ranged pet.

I think your time is better spent thinking of other ways to reduce the 44 hours, rather than worrying about the 6.6 minutes.

Damn you mathematicians! b:angry b:laugh

Basically I'm struggling to see any advantage of the marksman as a lurer except in cases where you have to send the pet through a gauntlet of mobs to pull a boss.

I actually listed multiple reasons here: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=323451

-including lure targets that kite, lure targets on platforms, and hardiness. I failed to mention there that you can see a ranged pet initiate attack on a mob farther around a corner. Now how about those reasons a Kowlin is a good lurer? Flashy light show is all I'm aware of, and that only benefits a specific group of people who are at a disadvantage from the onset. The Frogling has a green light show, and it has hardiness as a counter to speed.

To be honest, I use an Armored Bear for most lures, Frogling for some, and Marksman for the least lately. If I could only have one lure pet, it would be a marksman.