b:cry they took away the gold packs!

Fintan - Lost City

XAsch - Sanctuary wrote: »

So, they went back on what they said, they gave a reason why, and it's perfectly valid. It's annoying we have to wait for the packs to come back, sure, but if you use the Cash Shop, and mall as much as some people have said; what's an extra $4? Wow. So you spend like $0.83c more. Big deal. If you can't live with it, don't buy them.

I, on the other hand, only have a problem with them editing their announcement. Apart from that, I'm fine with the given reasoning.

You forget that the packs also came with those rainbow eggs. Sure, the odds of getting the lion mount were like a tenth of one percent, but the other things that could be in them don't necessarily suck. Sure, some of the charms are relatively useless, and there's better healing items around. But, still... One could argue that those craftable charms are better gotten with your "real" charms than solely by using mats...

I think you should factor that into the cost. Perhaps that number will come out closer to "what's an extra $5 (or a bit more)?", to which my answer is "lunch". Yay Subway's $5 footlongs! b:pleased

Oh, and regarding retroactively changing the announcement. That comes across as skeezy, PWE. b:sad It would have been better to place an "UPDATE - Jan 07, 2008: These items are temporarily removed from the Boutique. We expect to have them back in stock soon." or something at the bottom rather than "rewrite history". By just modifying the announcement, it comes across as you trying to backpedal and that you never really meant for them to be "PERMANENT" in the first place. Luckily, there's plenty of web spiders which archive random sites on the internet, so we should have the original text available for posterity. b:pleased Hopefully, you'll revert to the original announcement or note that it was amended or something that doesn't come across as dishonest. And, perhaps you'll do right by us the first time next time. b:pleased

Shezmu - Lost City

Kaenor - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It just a marketing trick to sell more on original price, its not a surreptitious act, just business. Live with it.

Business screws up the economy look whats happening now. Economic Crises ONLLY because banks were GREEDY(hmm reminds me of some company ^^) to loan money to peeps who obviously could not pay back

Shezmu - Lost City

XAsch - Sanctuary wrote: »

So, they went back on what they said, they gave a reason why, and it's perfectly valid. It's annoying we have to wait for the packs to come back, sure, but if you use the Cash Shop, and mall as much as some people have said; what's an extra $4? Wow. So you spend like $0.83c more. Big deal. If you can't live with it, don't buy them.

Yeah idiots like you Approve behavior they just showed. reasoning is NOT always fine. Oops i killed your mother BUT she was ughly anyway or Who cares it's one more dead anyway the worlds death rate just increased by 0.00000??%. Big deal. If you can't live with it. then join her ....Good reasoning?

Also i can buy some great stuff for the amounts of $4 extra i would spend luckely i can afford to just buy my gold ingame without using too much real cash, but that dont Approve their ****ed up metheds

Transcend - Lost City

I've seen these GM's flip-flop on more than one occasion, and this has lead me to believe that as much as they would deny, they aren't aware or being notified of what's being implemented or removed in these patches.

I've never played a game where so many PR flubs happen so frequently. Of course it angers the community, because we're essentially communicating with a receptionist (no offense to those who are) who has water-cooler conversations with the developers.

There have been some improvements, such as the patch notes that demystify MOST of the changes. But, editing past patch notes to cover up ANOTHER flub only magnifies the faults of the GM's, as well as generate agro from the community.

That wasn't a slick move at all. It created more of a mess than the original issue.

Klath - Sanctuary

You people are idiots. They gave you 5 prices for the price of 4 and they gave you free chance items with it.

They could have just sold you charms at the normal rate, but they gave you a better value for your money.

You are the one being an idiot, look at the mirror.
As any other item sold on "packs" at cashshop, they have reduced prices.

Yes, i also feel decieved by the manipulation of the info. And will be boycotting the boutique until a better explanation than "whoops" is given.

swgs

I bought 2 last night for 350K each in game, they were 300k 2 days ago. hope they can put something similar back before I use them up. Expecting in-game price to go up soon. it is imposible to play this game without charge now, most in game items are much cheaper then 2 weeks ago, but cash shop items are holding up if not higher. it becomes harder and harder to make coins in game to exchange for cash shop items.

Strikersonic - Heavens Tear

so maybe it will be bak next week?

Vasflam - Lost City

Mosz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

this is after prices of charms were raised highly from the original prices 60silver bronze and 1.5silver or 2.0 when we started playing, of course didnt have gold back then yet
and the lion mount chance is 0.02 chance, fabulous and bugged lately possibly

Raised from what, the Malaysian version? GTFO with that argument. PWI's prices have been the same since they opened.

And do you have ANY evidence to support the idea that the lion mount chance was bugged other than your own bad luck?

Vasflam - Lost City

Klath - Sanctuary wrote: »

You are the one being an idiot, look at the mirror.

Really good argument there.

Sonnestark - Heavens Tear

Transcend - Lost City wrote: »

I've seen these GM's flip-flop on more than one occasion, and this has lead me to believe that as much as they would deny, they aren't aware or being notified of what's being implemented or removed in these patches.

I've never played a game where so many PR flubs happen so frequently. Of course it angers the community, because we're essentially communicating with a receptionist (no offense to those who are) who has water-cooler conversations with the developers.

There have been some improvements, such as the patch notes that demystify MOST of the changes. But, editing past patch notes to cover up ANOTHER flub only magnifies the faults of the GM's, as well as generate agro from the community.

That wasn't a slick move at all. It created more of a mess than the original issue.

Exactly along the lines I'm thinking.

Reisha - Heavens Tear

I know we're all upset but lets not put the anger within the community itself. Be angry at the action of whats happened and not the ppl who have nothing to do with it. Its ok to disagree, but lets be civil about it.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Dvorak wrote: »

posted the following in a similar thread:

"Let me start off by saying that our Charm Packs have been a very successful addition to our Cash Shop and therefore it would be in 'our' best interest to make these bundles available again to our members as soon as possible.

The truth of the matter is that due to some technical issues (semi related to the issues with closing all Christmas events simultaneously) we needed to pull these products for (what we hope is) a short duration.

Please bear with us as we iron out the issues related to these Packs."

and yes, we recently altered the text as some of you have pointed out above. Nothing devious going on there really. We just wanted to make sure that the archived news item reflects the current status of these Packs. Thank you for reminding us to correct that statement!

Erm, if the charm packs were pulled temporarily and will be coming back, there was no reason to edit the original announcement to remove the statement that they were a permanent addition. They are according to you still permanent, just temporarily unavailable, so no need to do the editing you did.

I should also point out that in the same announcement the super inventory, bank, and cage stones were announced as only being available for one week around Thanksgiving. They're still in the boutique.

XxTORMENTAxx - Heavens Tear

I will admit that I am not 100% into what is happening here with this Gold Charm thing other than they are not available anymore and people are pissed for the reasons given to why they are gone.

Feel free to correct me if that general statement is wrong.

I do have a question though. Is game life functional within PW without these charms. I mean, if noone had them could the game go on? Perhaps in a different manner, maybe more team oriented, maybe more stratigically analyzed. I do not know.

Perhaps some opinions could be added here about my thoughts.

Poison - Heavens Tear

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I should also point out that in the same announcement the super inventory, bank, and cage stones were announced as only being available for one week around Thanksgiving. They're still in the boutique.

Announcement wrote:

The following new items are available for one week at a reduced price

They weren't saying they were going away in a week, they were saying that the price would go up after that week was up.

Persephone - Lost City

This is lame. Just wanna say that i won't charge any gold until the PERMANENT charm packs are back.

Kingpiccolo - Heavens Tear

XxTORMENTAxx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I will admit that I am not 100% into what is happening here with this Gold Charm thing other than they are not available anymore and people are pissed for the reasons given to why they are gone.

Feel free to correct me if that general statement is wrong.

I do have a question though. Is game life functional within PW without these charms. I mean, if noone had them could the game go on? Perhaps in a different manner, maybe more team oriented, maybe more stratigically analyzed. I do not know.

Perhaps some opinions could be added here about my thoughts.

Charms are neccesary in all PvP activities, AoE and Tanking. Sure we could do without it the same way we could do without electricity but it would be highly inconvinient and make this game quite bothersome.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Kingpiccolo - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Charms are neccesary in all PvP activities, AoE and Tanking. Sure we could do without it the same way we could do without electricity but it would be highly inconvinient and make this game quite bothersome.

Unless you are a veno, in which case you pvp, tank and aoe all without.

Don't forget you can use apothecary items in place of charms.

Eislynn - Sanctuary

Apothecary items are used in addition to charms, if I'm not mistaken for PVP TWs. At least, they should be.

The apothecary items have a longer cooldown period, whereas the charms only have a 5-second cool down, so it's really something that's up to each person's own personal opinion. *shrug*

XxTORMENTAxx - Heavens Tear

From what I am reading, life can go on without these Charms especially when noone has them. Perhaps it is something to make the game more challenging.

Of course noone like change especially when it has been running so smoothly for so long.

Hong - Heavens Tear

Being money hungry is one thing, but taking away gold charm packs is another. You guys have pissed off tons of costumers and players in-game with that removal. You clearly said that those charms were PERMANENT. Editing that patch note out was wrong.

I don't know what you guys are planning to do, but many of us feels like we're getting a big rip-off and feeding money to a hungry company. You clearly just unmotivated hundreds of players and lost tons of trust.

Good job.

Eislynn - Sanctuary

XxTORMENTAxx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

From what I am reading, life can go on without these Charms especially when noone has them. Perhaps it is something to make the game more challenging.

Of course noone like change especially when it has been running so smoothly for so long.

I think it's more that the original announcement stated that the charm packs were a permanent addition, and to have them removed without any notice, and also changing what they stated in the announcement back when they first released the packs is what's upsetting a lot of the players. Being misled is not really something that gives you the snuggly warm feelings. *shrug*

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Poison - Heavens Tear wrote: »

They weren't saying they [the super inventory, bank, cage extension stones] were going away in a week, they were saying that the price would go up after that week was up.

Their prices haven't changed from when they were introduced either.

XAsch - Sanctuary

Shezmu - Lost City wrote: »

Yeah idiots like you Approve behavior they just showed. reasoning is NOT always fine. Oops i killed your mother BUT she was ughly anyway or Who cares it's one more dead anyway the worlds death rate just increased by 0.00000??%. Big deal. If you can't live with it. then join her ....Good reasoning?

Also i can buy some great stuff for the amounts of $4 extra i would spend luckely i can afford to just buy my gold ingame without using too much real cash, but that dont Approve their ****ed up metheds

Ahhaha, and idiots like you continuously whining about it give them a reason to delay it. b:bye

Zori - Lost City

I just think it's insulting to customers >_>; We spend real life money on this, just like any product out in the real world.

I just think it's rude for a company, over anything, to be so shady and greedy.

brovar

Well... first they destroyed the pvp in this game by adding phoenix and now this... I'm seriously thinking about stopping playing this game, right now when I got to 70... There's really no point, because I have no guarantee they don't do more things like that or that they will bring game balance back (dunno, take phoenix away or at least cut its hp and damage in half or something). Here's some ideas for the devs/gms to introduce in future:
1. make inventories and banks smaller if they have been already enhanced to maximum using stones,
2. reset peoples items refining lvl if they don't buy charms out of cash shop each day,
3. finally, make the game a pay2play one: enforce paying 50$ each month and edit the website/forums so that they will prove that this game was never ever free to play.

Yes, I am upset. Don't know which upsets me more: venos with phoenix being impossible to kill or the charms affair...

Twilyte - Heavens Tear

Forgive my slowness at wrapping my mind around all this angst on this thread (suffering through a major head cold atm).

I've taken the time to read every single post in this thread (I figure if someone takes the time to write it, I should at least take the time to read it) and have come to a few conclusions:

The staff has come out and said (Dvorak specifically) that these charm packs were a profitable item for them and it would be in their best interest to get them back in as soon as possible. They were removed because of a technical issue related to the ending of the Xmas event (which I know first hand has caused issues in various manners on other versions).

Now, the next step the staff took, which, along with many other posters, I agree was a mis-step, was to go back and edit an existing announcement about these being a permanent addition to the game. Now, when this thread first came into existence, the original announcement still stated perma, and after so many enraged posters pointed out that fact, they went back and altered the text. Maybe they jumped the gun calling them permanent in the first place. Who knows. I know for a fact, not a single arrogant player postin g on this forum know, so quit guessing. You only advertise your ingorance.

I fully agree, that from a consumer's perspective, a completely separate announcement stating that they will be temporarily removed until a glitch can be resolved would have produced less of a riot, but I still believe plenty of players would have been posting constantly "are they coming back? How long? This sucks! You are just milking us for money!" Deny it if you will, but all I have to do is browse the tens of thousands of posts on these forums to understand the general nature of players.

To those that think they are milking us, nothing will change your mind. Not math, not explanations of the internal workings of a sales plan (I am in Sales for a living, btw, and I knew the packs would generate more sales...it's just consumer nature), not anything will change your view.

All I can say, to those who are still on the fence, is this: Yes, this company wants to make as much money as possible. EVERY company does. Why do you think McDonalds advertises 2 for $2 Big Macs, or retail stores advertise 2 for 1 sales. Consumers buy more when they perceive they are getting a bargin, even if they don't "need" to eat 2 Big Mac's, we can't pass up that "deal" (I can...I am sooo sick of fast food...gah!) But, yet, like sheep, consumers will buy into it and it will generate a signifigant boost in company profits. We do it where I work and I see the impact on the bottom line.

Now, with that knowledge, how exactly would intentionally removing a profit making item with no good reason make them more money, when sales of charms increased with the addition of the packs. That means sales will go down now that they are gone, and hence, profits lower. It tells me, that since this is a business, and every business is in it to make maximum profit, that they didn't want to remove them, rather, something happened and they were forced to remove them, as they have said.

Maybe it was a connection of the packs with the various Xmas gift packs, who knows.

I think they should not have editted the announcement and just added a new annoucement, but they said they need to bring something like it back, if not exactly the same thing. They are not making MORE money this way, rather, making less.

Klath - Sanctuary

Twilyte, while i agree with part of your post, there are things to take into consideration.

Xarfoxy first said this on first page:

The Gold Packs were not accidentally removed. No worries, it's likely that we'll see something similar again sometime in the future.

Then later dvorak replied:

posted the following in a similar thread:

"Let me start off by saying that our Charm Packs have been a very successful addition to our Cash Shop and therefore it would be in 'our' best interest to make these bundles available again to our members as soon as possible.

The truth of the matter is that due to some technical issues (semi related to the issues with closing all Christmas events simultaneously) we needed to pull these products for (what we hope is) a short duration.

Please bear with us as we iron out the issues related to these Packs."

and yes, we recently altered the text as some of you have pointed out above. Nothing devious going on there really. We just wanted to make sure that the archived news item reflects the current status of these Packs. Thank you for reminding us to correct that statement!

Well, while dvorak states that the packs were removed due to an issue, xarfoxy previously made it sound like they were removed to increase the sales of bronze/silver charm again (you never saw those around anymore, only event charms).
Yes, gold charms DID sell a lot, but what happaned to silver charms that used to be common?
I dont know, the said "technical issue" answer is rather vague and i dont take it that easy, previous "technical issues" (bronze charms swap) have been better addressed and/or even explained so we users dont stay sitting on our hands waiting for something to be fixed 5 months later.

brovar

Twilyte - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Forgive my slowness at wrapping my mind around all this angst on this thread (suffering through a major head cold atm).

I've taken the time to read every single post in this thread (I figure if someone takes the time to write it, I should at least take the time to read it) and have come to a few conclusions:

The staff has come out and said (Dvorak specifically) that these charm packs were a profitable item for them and it would be in their best interest to get them back in as soon as possible. They were removed because of a technical issue related to the ending of the Xmas event (which I know first hand has caused issues in various manners on other versions).

Well, we will see if the packs come back on next maintenance. Or if the charms will double in price and then we will get packs selling 5 for the price of 4. I am a programmer myself and I know how big projects look like. And I bet that adding/changing/deleting items from a cash shop is extremely easy and shouldn't take more than 5 minutes. And I really doubt there can be any connection to the xmas event... Why didn't the fashion items dissapear?

You say you're in the business. Then you should know noone is selling items really worth 3$ each in packs for 5$ for two. You rather increase their (items worth 3$) price to 4$ each and then make a pack of two for 7$, which looks like a bargain and you can call it a discount.

Twilyte - Heavens Tear

brovar wrote: »

Well, we will see if the packs come back on next maintenance. Or if the charms will double in price and then we will get packs selling 5 for the price of 4. I am a programmer myself and I know how big projects look like. And I bet that adding/changing/deleting items from a cash shop is extremely easy and shouldn't take more than 5 minutes. And I really doubt there can be any connection to the xmas event... Why didn't the fashion items dissapear?

You say you're in the business. Then you should know noone is selling items really worth 3$ each in packs for 5$ for two. You rather increase their (items worth 3$) price to 4$ each and then make a pack of two for 7$, which looks like a bargain and you can call it a discount.

Actually, in real life, you factor in material cost and labor, figure out what % of each item's price needs to go towards overhead costs (ie..utilities, taxes, etc) and then factor in a profit margin (and frighteningly enough, profit margins that are added are huge, inexcess of 70%+ above the SUM of the above costs). Then, if you want to stimulate sales, you figure out how to package them without actually eliminating your per item profit. That's with material objects.

For example, you have a product that appeals to many consumers and it costs you 1$ to make. You add an additional profit margin of 1$ (100%), bringing the cost to $2. Everyone likes it at that price, and they buy. After time, sales flatten, neither going up, nor down.

Now you bring out the "sale". 2 for 3$! WOW! Consumers don't read into "they must still be making money, even at this price." Nor do they acknowledge "Wow, if they are still making money at this price, the profit margin on the original prices was insane!"

The only thought through the average consumer's mind is "Woot! I use those all the time, and now is a great time to stock up on them!"

Think about that the next time your favorite soda 12 pack (they converted to 8 packs here! b:angry) goes on sale, or the next time you see McDonalds advertise 2 for 2$...single sandwich prices listed on menu always mentioned quietly at the end.

Sales actually can generate lots more profit than a single item at a good price simply because of the quantity of product moved.

This is what those packs were doing. Moving product quicker, hence, more profits. If for a second you think the packs generated less because the price was cheaper, remember this...those examples above are with material objects, with real labor and material costs included. What is the difference in cost to PW between a single virtual charm and a pack?

Nothing. It's virtual. The difference is players will buy more, so the money rolls in faster with no extra cost to PW.

Now...explain to me again how this can be interpretted as them trying to get more money from us when it slows down their sales?

Peace.b:victory

brovar

Twilyte - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This is what those packs were doing. Moving product quicker, hence, more profits. If for a second you think the packs generated less because the price was cheaper, remember this...those examples above are with material objects, with real labor and material costs included. What is the difference in cost to PW between a single virtual charm and a pack?

Nothing. It's virtual. The difference is players will buy more, so the money rolls in faster with no extra cost to PW.

Now...explain to me again how this can be interpretted as them trying to get more money from us when it slows down their sales?

Peace.b:victory

Thank you for your explanation, its an interesting read. But as you said they can set the price at whatever they want, and they will still be making profit, because there is no cost of making such charms, storing them, taxing them etc. There is an overall cost of running the game, but thats not the matter. Thing is that every higher lvl player NEEDS the charms (unless they are venos), so they will buy it anyway or quit the game. So they will try to set the prices as high as possible without losing too many people, and those who stay will end up zenning hundreds of dollars a month, still making profit. Thats what devs/gms are thinking, we'll see how it ends.

The other version of the game has everything cheaper from what I've heard (you get 8 gold for 1$) and is still making profit.

As I said before, I really doubt they will bring those packs back for the price they were on sale before. I think they will increase the price of normal charms and then make the packs back, but at higher price. I bet we'll end up spending 5$ or so on each charm.

If the devs/gms have good intensions and are not lying about those packs, they will bring them back on wednesday while doing maintenance. Thats it.