Sword or Fist? Which is the better at PvP?

XangChi - Heavens Tear

Which build do you guys think is better for PvP? Swords Blademaster or Fists Blademaster and why? Your answers can be as simple at "Swords do more damage" or "Fists hit more often." Just curious on other peoples views.

Nayiro - Sanctuary

Fists. Everyone will argue against me, but fists late game own in PvP vs. any other CC class. Our accuracy and dodge is substantial. We hit fast, us pots less often due to spark gathering so quickly. We also beat casters because of our one skill that cancels their spell.

But honestly, everyone will tell you swords because everyone on PWI is to young (in game) to realize fists rock PvP.

But that's just me.

XangChi - Heavens Tear

Couldn't a fist user switch to a blade user when needed tho?

I was thinking of capping vit at 50. (like suggested) And capping str at 200 to use "most" heavy armors (up to level 85) and still be able to use the best blade weapons as well as fists. And of course, everything else into dex. What do you think?

Lyndura - Lost City

At PvP you use skills most of the time, and Swords deal a higher damage than Fist when using skills, and you will need it to burn through the charm/high physical defense/HP of the opponent, or to kill that caster class with a few hits before it 1~2 hit kill you.

Fists don't get better late game. When people start hitting 9x levels, they go with low/base VIT (using HP Shards and + their equipment), enough STR for weapon and rest into DEX. Meaning the Accuracy/Evasion of the Fist builds is useless, specially when you mix that high DEX with +50% Accuracy rings.

Or what when casters get 4~6k PDEF, or even 10~11k PDEF and 4~6k HP? Or Heavy Armor WF's? Full Attack Clerics that 1 hit most BM's?

Fist simple won't deal enough damage to kill them before they die. At late levels evasion is useless most of the time, unless you're facing PvE built people...

So in my opinion it's this way:

30~50: Sword is better at PvP because of the high damage, and Fist doesn't really has a high evasion/critical hit rate yet.
50~60: Matter of equipment.
60~80: Past 60, a lot of people focus into AoE training, so they add more VIT to their builds, instead of DEX. So it's matter of which added VIT and who didn't, also the equipment.
80~89: Matter of equipment.
89+ : Combination of weapons.

Nayiro - Sanctuary wrote: »

But honestly, everyone will tell you swords because everyone on PWI is to young (in game) to realize fists rock PvP.

But that's just me.

Actually, a lot of people come from other versions of PW, specially from MY/MY-EN. And many of them were 9x~1xx level. Reason why a lot of experienced players say that Axe/Spear/Sword are better than Fist at PvP, because of the builds used at 9x.

Also, since most people max 2~3 or even 4 trees at level 9x, many people use a variation of different weapons and skills to perform better at PvP. The most popular at MY-EN was Axe+Spear, or Axe+Sword, Fist users would usually go with Sword and/or Spear for PvP, a lower level Axe for AoE training at Hell/Heaven, and also a bow (you could see many 9x WR's using bow ).

XangChi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Couldn't a fist user switch to a blade user when needed tho?

I was thinking of capping vit at 50. (like suggested) And capping str at 200 to use "most" heavy armors (up to level 85) and still be able to use the best blade weapons as well as fists. And of course, everything else into dex. What do you think?

That's the build that Odin used on MY-EN :P

EDIT: I use a PvP build, and I have more evasion/critical hit rate/accuracy (unless they use LA, but then they get way more damage from me) than most Fist BM's of my level, and I deal more damage because I use Poleblade. And I know Sword users that as same as me, have as much or even more of those attributes than Fist users, just that they deal more damage.

XangChi - Heavens Tear

"That's the build that Odin used on MY-EN :P"

So does that mean it turned out good for Odin or was it a soso build? I guess if he was well-known for his build then it must have been at the very least, decent, right?

Lyndura - Lost City

It was "soso".You can check it here: http://forum.perfectworld.com.my/viewtopic.php?t=11823

But he capped STR at 200, because he was "going to be lazing around when he hit 90". And that is because 99% of the people, use the "Proud Plate of Corsaire" (Level 79 Heavy Plate) and "Cuisses of Sea Captain" (Level 77 Heavy Leggings) until they reach level 90, and get HH90 Full Set. The Plate of Corsaire requires 200 STR to be used, that's why he capped it at that amount (Level 79)...but I suggest to keep addding STR, you will need it when you hit level 90, and more if you want to use HH99 and the higher armors.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

To cap stats:

VIT is matter of preference, some like to cap it at 50, some like to go with base VIT, and some like to cap it at 69~89. Whatever you feel more comfortable with.

For STR, it's depending on what you want to use. Poleblade/Sword/Fist will cap their STR the next way:

Lvl 90 Heavy Armor : 227 STR
Lvl 99 Heavy Armor: 250 STR

Axes will cap STR at this amount:

Lvl 90 Axe/Hammer: 272 STR
Lvl 99 Axe/Hammer: 299 STR

All the left stats go into DEX. That way you're able to use 3 weapons at their level, and one of lower level (just around 8~10 levels lower), or if you go with base VIT, you can use all the weapons at their levels.

As you can see, 3 out of the 4 possible ways for BM, have the same Evasion/Accuracy/Critical Hit ratio, being Axe the only different one, it's not really that behind, and +50% accuracy ring make it up for it, just that they deal more damage.

My personal opinion and suggestion is to not go with fist at all, unless you really do like them.

WindGaurdian - Sanctuary

I agree.. ^___^

moymoy

Fist will rock at the end... you know why?? higher dex=higher acc= higher critical= higher evasion... meaning you will never hit us and we will kill your defence with our critical... got it??

Lyndura - Lost City

moymoy wrote: »

Fist will rock at the end... you know why?? higher dex=higher acc= higher critical= higher evasion... meaning you will never hit us and we will kill your defence with our critical... got it??

Everyone has the same DEX as you late level (just that higher damage)...got it?

XangChi - Heavens Tear

Ok, so far I am level 20 with 15 Vit, 43 Str, and 52 Dex. I am placing my stats as followed:

Every 2 levels: (10 points)

1 Vit
4 Str
5 Dex

And I am doing well. Oh and not to mention, I haven't gotten' ANY skills yet except for my buffs of course.

I was planning on continuing to do this until level 95 when my Vit = 50 and Str = 200. At that point I was thinking of dumping all other stats into dex.

My reasoning is because I'm not the type to fight toe to toe 'till death. I prefer to hit and move. I had planed on using "Tiger Leap" and "Leap Back" to get several hard hits in before taking to many hits myself, jumping out of the way, then repeating. Basicly, the same tactic as a ninja (fist user), but i just figured i could slap my enemies around a little harder with a blade. Also, since blade users have a semi ranged skill (Sprint Chaser), it would make for a good hit before my enemy reached me.

So, in the end, shouldn't I be able to hold my own against both melee (while using swords) and ranged (while using fists)?

Lyndura - Lost City

You need at least 5 STR every two levels to use Heavy Armor at the correct level.

If you want to hit and move, you're better off using Spear. Farstrike + Drake's Ray, combined with both leaps, will cause a good/serious damage to your oponents before they reach you/run away from you.

Sword has a ranged attack too, but it's not as good as Farstrike.

Fist/Sword(not that much)/Axe are type that fights toe to toe 'till death. And against casters, Axes and Fist have to go after them, because you're close range attacker.

With Fists, using Leaps you would only: Start the combat close to your enemy, both hit each other, then you use Drake's Ray which will do an insignificant damage because you're Fist user, then you will have to get close/wait for your opponent to start damaging again, because you need the close range...and repeat.

But if you want to be a Blademaster, then get used to the toe to toe fighting style.

Also, 200 STR is a very low amount for level 95...you won't manage to pass through your enemy defense/HP.

XangChi - Heavens Tear

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

With Fists, using Leaps you would only: Start the combat close to your enemy, both hit each other, then you use Drake's Ray which will do an insignificant damage because you're Fist user, then you will have to get close/wait for your opponent to start damaging again, because you need the close range...and repeat.

I'm not sure that I explained my self correctly or if maybe you didn't understand what I meant but While using fist I would only be going after Caster types, not melee types. Now, In sword form I would get close because I would be doing more damage with the same critical rates.

So, in a nutshell... Swords vs. Melee and Fist vs. Casters

Lyndura - Lost City

And you need Heavy Armor if you want to fight against meele users (you need more STR) with sword. Also, I'm guessing you're going to leave your leaps at level 4~5, since Spirit Chaser max range is 12 meters, and Drake Ray's is 10 meters. Leaps max range is 16 meters.

You won't really want to use those skills that much, in a fight you will be mostly saving up your Chi for healing and sparking.

Also, why go Fist against casters? You have to run after them, and when you reach them your accuracy doesn't matter that much since they don't have evasion, your dodge is useless since magic never misses, your attack rating is useless too since you will be using skills, and your Shadowless Kick skill has 12 seconds cooldown, more than enough time for a caster to bring you down. Your damage is low and you won't really pass through LA builds or healing, and once you get at late levels you will just tickle them with your attacks.

Sure, you can kill Wizards from level 1 to 6x (anyone does)...then they will start to **** you. 6 second stun and Aeolian Blade do help a lot, but it won't be enough to kill good casters, you need high damage to bring them down.

XangChi - Heavens Tear

Well... you're actually starting to convince me now. So 5 Str per level right? That means at level 100 I should be looking at 250 Str right, Would I still cap my Vit at 50? (I'm assuming so.) And then what, everything else into dex at that point or should I keep going with more Str to push more damage?

Lyndura - Lost City

Yeah, you need 250 to wear the level 99 HH Heavy Armor. The amount of VIT you will need depends if you're going to be AoE grinding, and your equipment. Yes 50 VIT is a good amount, if you're rich you can live with less, but if you're poor, you will need more.

About adding more STR or DEX at late levels, it will be your choice, depending on how well you perform at that level against other classes, and what weapon (s) you use, your equipment will be a great point of that decition too, and since it will take a pretty good amount of time for you to be in those levels, you should just focus for now into leveling, then, when you get to those levels, you will be able to answer yourself.

Nayiro - Sanctuary

Have you ever truly tried a fist build?
Honestly. I've talked to SO many people and they ALL say Fists are the best PvP wep when used in the hands of a skilled player.

But to each their own.

Whats your crit btw?

suckme

arge why can't some1 just set up a match lol 2 lvl 90+ sword vs fist and see who wins 3 out of 3 matches....

mainly id like to see heavy sword vs light fist cuase to require that much str never have as much dex
and a fist could concentrate on evasion gear or atk speed gear to offset +accuracy gear of sword

XangChi - Heavens Tear

I think that would be an awesome idea but it would have to have some rules to make things equal wouldn't it? For instance, same level armors. ie. level 90HH heavy armor for swords and level 90HH Light armor for fists. And then don't forget stones make a big difference too. How about everything has to be clean (no sockets). But then again, it would boil down to the skills of each player.

Lyndura - Lost City

Nayiro - Sanctuary wrote: »

Have you ever truly tried a fist build?
Honestly. I've talked to SO many people and they ALL say Fists are the best PvP wep when used in the hands of a skilled player.

But to each their own.

Whats your crit btw?

Of course I have. And my critical hit chance is 9~10%.

Also, you're in a PvE server...where most people use PvE builds...if you ask anyone about who wins between PvE Fist vs PvE Sword, a lot of people will say Fists. Or go check other versions of PW, and see why a lot of people don't use Fists, and the only ones using them is because they really do like them. And by "high level" I mean 8x, because at 9x people stop being one single weapon and they use combinations of 2~3 weapons for PvE and PvP.

Really, come to the PvP Server and ask the high level BM's why they use their weapon (Mostly Axe then Spear/Sword and 1~2 with Fists).

When you're 9x, and the defense of both BM's is very high, using Alter Marrow Physical level 10, or Holy one which increases to 180% PDEF, adding a lot of DEX and using +50% Accuracy Ring, plus Berserker; you can really see then why people uses other weapons over Fists.

Anyways, if any Fist BM wants to try, I'll duel anyone in a range of 2 levels lower than me, and 9 levels higher than me. That is from 63 to 74.

EDIT: I'll make the scenary for the fight of Fist vs. Sword at level 9x.

Fist (Hell), HH90 Light Armor:

Armor: +657 PDEF.
Leggings: +563 PDEF.
Boots: +375 PDEF.
Arm: +282 PDEF.
HH90 Fist: 501-554 Physical attack (Berserker: Deals double damage at the cost of 5% HP).
Pirate's King Seal: +10 Evasion.

Hell Aura of the Golden Bell: +75% physical defense for 30 minutes => Gives a 75% physical defense bonus for 15 seconds.
Heaven Alter Marrow Physical: Increase Physical Defense by 150% at the cost of 120% Magical Defense. => Hell always decreases magical defense by 90%.

Sword (Heaven), HH90 Heavy Armor:

Plate: +1532 PDEF.
Leggings: +1313 PDEF.
Boots: +875 PDEF.
Arm: +657 PDEF.
HH90 Dual Swords: 748-1012 Physical Attack.
HH90 Blade: 494-918 (Berserker: Deals double damage at the cost of 5% HP).
Misty Forest Ring: +50% Accuracy (or even 2 of them, +100%)

Hell Aura of the Golden Bell: +75% Physical defense for 30 minutes => Hell Always grants an extra 90% physical defense.
Heaven Alter Marrow Physical: Increase Physical Defense by 150% at the cost of 120% Magical Defense => Heaven version always increases physical defense defense by 180%.

Both with a lot of DEX, means high Accuracy/Evasion/Critical, of course, Fist have more of those attributes, but loses a lot of damage. Sword deals more damage not only because of the stats/weapon, but the Skills deal way more damage too, and it's not going to miss because of the ring(s). Yes, Fist BM will crit more, but really, with the loss of STR the build has, those criticals are not even going to make it up to bypass the defense of the other BM.

So, which one do you think will win?

In my personal opinion, if you're going with high DEX, Light Armor build and minimum/low STR, then you're better off making an Archer, they get more benefits from DEX (way more damage than Fists), they get an Evasion buff, they use LA Armor too. Then, that would be a match I would like to see, Sword BM vs. Pure DEX Archer.

blo0dyyay

Fist > ninja's, sneak on enemys on behind (prefered low hp) and can take a few at a time (dodge rate)

Swords > 1 at a time, high damage, good hp

Nayiro - Sanctuary

you have 9~10% crit rate?

I'm at least 15 lvls lower then you and I already have 8% crit.

Everyone has the same dex later lvl huh?

And i have asked people that played other version of PW, they say it's been proven the fists are the best for PvP.

Here, read this if you don't believe me:
http://1perfectworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4367

Lyndura - Lost City

Nayiro - Sanctuary wrote: »

you have 9~10% crit rate?

I'm at least 15 lvls lower then you and I already have 8% crit.

I'm not using a % crit ring. If I use it I have 11% critical hit chance, but meh, got something better for now than rank ring.

And, 15 levels = 75 points, 75/20 = 3.75 = 3% critical hit chance. So, 8+3 = 11%. That is if you add 5 DEX per level. Then, you will have the same critical as me, just that I will have more physical attack and more damage. HP and Dodge is matter of equipment, but for you to get a general idea my dodge is already past 2k, and my HP is 4k. Even Fist users miss me ;o

Nayiro - Sanctuary wrote: »

Everyone has the same dex later lvl huh?

By later level I clearly said, 89+.

Nayiro - Sanctuary wrote: »

And i have asked people that played other version of PW, they say it's been proven the fists are the best for PvP.

Here, read this if you don't believe me:
http://1perfectworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4367

What do I look there? A guy posting a guide that he didn't made, and that says "its basically proven that fist will be the top PvP winners among other weapons if being used by a talented player."

I just see key words, "basically", "will be". Which means they haven't proven it.

But hey, I'll use the same idea. I'll make a guide, then I'll say that it's basically proven that Bow BM will be the top PvP winners in the future, only IF it's used by a talented player of course, as same as Bowbarian ;o
Then I'll translate it to another asian language so it looks cool, then I'll have loads of noobs following my idea, sounds good :P

So, I have to choose...between following the advice of a guide that tells me to go with Fists for PvP, or following the advice of experienced and skilled 9x, 1xx+ players, that spent hundreds or even thousands of USD in this game just to get the best PvP equipment they could...mmmm~...difficult choice.

Anyways, believe that, keep leveling, and I'll see you at level 89...too bad you're in a PvE server, otherwise we could fight.

Nayiro - Sanctuary

By basically he meant that it has been proven.
But anyway I'm not gonna argue with a stubborn person such as yourself that thinks they know every single aspect of begin a BM.
You play your way, I'll play mine.
Good day.

Kingpiccolo - Heavens Tear

Fists are useless in PvP compared to other weapons, low hp, low damage, low defence. All the things that make a BM useful. As an Axe BM I can beat most if not all Fist BM at my level or within 3 levels of me. Simply slap on an effectiveness powder, I suddenly get 200% increase in Accuracy and I can cut through a Fist BM like cheese.

Fist BM's high crit rate and evasion means absolutely nothing, Evasion is so easily bypassed that it's practically useless, I mean I can just use an effectiveness powder and destroy any Fist BM in a few hits. The crit rate is also useless, with the amount of damage Fist BM do, their Critical is basically my normal attack.

There's basically no question about Fist vs Sword. Sword WILL win, right now we are talking about the weapons so the talent of the player behind it is completely irrelevent. Now under the condition that the players are of same skill level, the Sword will deal MUCH MORE DAMAGE than the Fist, both the Sword tree and the common BM skills will deal more damage from the Sword. The Sword tree's skills also have much lower cooldown meaning more skill spamming and better damage overall. Because of how easily Accuracy could be boosted to ridiculous levels, a Fist BM will NEVER beat a Sword BM of same skill level.

livebynights

XangChi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Which build do you guys think is better for PvP? Swords Blademaster or Fists Blademaster and why? Your answers can be as simple at "Swords do more damage" or "Fists hit more often." Just curious on other peoples views.

me personally i think fists are better you hit more often and if u ask me it is a bit more showoffy.

livebynights

i think tht fists make alot better pvp weps, they have a quicker attack rate and if used right are better than a sword, but if needed u can still switch over to a sword, but i sitll prefer fists they are also a bit showoffy becuase of the kool fighting moves.

Nayiro - Sanctuary

Please, let's all just drop this topic.

Lyndura - Lost City

Kingpiccolo - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Fists are useless in PvP compared to other weapons, low hp, low damage, low defence. All the things that make a BM useful. As an Axe BM I can beat most if not all Fist BM at my level or within 3 levels of me. Simply slap on an effectiveness powder, I suddenly get 200% increase in Accuracy and I can cut through a Fist BM like cheese.

Fist BM's high crit rate and evasion means absolutely nothing, Evasion is so easily bypassed that it's practically useless, I mean I can just use an effectiveness powder and destroy any Fist BM in a few hits. The crit rate is also useless, with the amount of damage Fist BM do, their Critical is basically my normal attack.

There's basically no question about Fist vs Sword. Sword WILL win, right now we are talking about the weapons so the talent of the player behind it is completely irrelevent. Now under the condition that the players are of same skill level, the Sword will deal MUCH MORE DAMAGE than the Fist, both the Sword tree and the common BM skills will deal more damage from the Sword. The Sword tree's skills also have much lower cooldown meaning more skill spamming and better damage overall. Because of how easily Accuracy could be boosted to ridiculous levels, a Fist BM will NEVER beat a Sword BM of same skill level.

It gets even easier with Accuracy Powder, which increases it by 500%.

senovit

I am lol'ing so hard. FIST USERS SUCK BECAUSE I CAN TAKE THEM DOWN IF I USE A PILL AND THEY DON'T. Also, any "high level" fist user will be using light armor, not heavy. Heavy simply gimps your stats far too much.

g972

senovit wrote: »

I am lol'ing so hard. FIST USERS SUCK BECAUSE I CAN TAKE THEM DOWN IF I USE A PILL AND THEY DON'T. Also, any "high level" fist user will be using light armor, not heavy. Heavy simply gimps your stats far too much.

Way to bring up month old posts. Are you saying accuracy powder for fist BM is going to make a difference against Axe/Sword/Spear? Because they won't be missing much anyway, and it isn't going to do anything. And where did you read anything about heavy? Pretty much every post here is considering fist to use light armor.

For people who can't seem to read and grasp basic concepts, this is about as simple as anyone can put it. PvP means heiros. Heiros mean you need SPIKE DAMAGE. Fists have low attack power and low survivability. The only thing they have that means anything is fast attack speed, but low attack power, which means steady consistent damage. Damage in PvP comes from skills. Fist skills have long cooldowns and do little damage. Not to mention they have no useful utility like stun, amp damage, AoE, etc. Low damage, long cooldown skills + steady consistent damage = absolutely terrible in PvP. PvP is heavy spike damage and spamming skills. Fist can't do either of that.

senovit

I have a need to start drama. I posted here cause I didn't want to start the argument in the sticky when Lyndora would have just referred me to this topic for all her arguments on why fist bm's suck. Lyndora's BM guide says to put the fist user in heavy armor, and says "if you want to put a fist BM in light armor, you may as well just make an archer."

If you use an accuracy pill, what's to stop the fist bm from using a half damage pill or even an invuln pill? Or are you seriously going to say "ok, this duel will be equal and both of us will only be allowed to use accuracy pills cause I know you'll hit me anyway."

Fist users aren't anti caster, they are anti melee. Casters can run, meaning you'll only be able to hit whenever you can actually catch up. What that means is spike damage is necessary. Now then. I'm not saying fist users are the ultimate in pk'ing, simply that it'll be extremely difficult for melee users to touch them. If you pill, they pill. When pills wear off and cooldowns are up, what do you do then? =|. Fists get higher evasion than archers even with lower dex, if you'd like a comparison.

Flawed arguments such as "Spamming skills is how you win pk," "accuracy pills are the only pills allowed in combat" and "Fists have low survivability" don't do anything but display your own ignorance on the class. Please review your own basic beliefs before you accuse others of being unable to "grasp basic concepts."