The two new recent codes can potentially crash the coin and gold markets.

demansfairy

razzzza wrote: »

advoc wrote: »

razzzza wrote: »

chchchchia wrote: »

razzzza wrote: »

what in the lords name do you understand under "house items"? please explain

You get them at random while doing the Paperclip for a Villa quest. "Mysterious Items" that appear to have no use except to be amusing (I like the Canned Tuna) but were designed for the housing system as Sylen wrote above.

oh right i was wondering what these items are (recently helped a guy with WC like 3 months ago and lookes it up on pwdatabase and didnt knew wtf that was) but never bothered doing WC to actually get those items.
Last time i did this was in 09 and i think these items where not a reward for the wc at that time right?

The housing system looks interessting and boring at the same time. when you can form your own land and build a whole map freely its kind of interessting but its boring cuz nothing is happening inside it so it kinda feels wrong in terms of PWI.

But thanks for throwing in "wc quest" cuz then i got the connections to the random items the wc quest gives out and the housing system sylen mentioned.

They were rewards since 2008, my cleric did that quest daily and gained a large amount of them.

then i cant remember it. i did WC once, it took forever (cuz coin was short and you had to fly to places) and the reward was not terrible but not worth it either. it was a kind of "lets start this bot right here" or a "lets do only chatting and fly around for 1 hour" quest and it was so boring to do.
I watched the videos sylen posten and the second one showed alot of it but i still dont think it would fit into PWI and its just interessting to form and build your stuff. Other then that i would grab a game which is designed for stuff like that and have way more options at hand.

Anyway BTT:
I see so much hassle in dawnglory right now in buying and selling those kits and people are buying tons of them in catshops for as cheap as 700k.
Dunno what but i will store mine and sell them at a later date or open them and use them for myself not sure yet.

The people who can abuse that to the max can make alot of coins with it sure but we had worse things.
What i dont understand is why they made them tradeable. there is no logical sense in that and invites players to abuse it really.​​

How would making them bound help ppl not abu de them ( well at least the perfect hammers)? All that would have happened is that ppl who stocked chest of coins would have been able to sell them for even more to other players ( hell I had 1k chest of coins just from selling GV service or from leveling one of my RB alts).

aeternusdoleo

I hope this was a honeypot and that people who massively collect/gather them will end up with a ban for their efforts. But history has taught me otherwise. *sigh*

dblazen1

What PWE really needs is active GM's, not some automated ban system that is half-assed and by-passable.

Will never happen though​​

cheesespread#3490

Off-topic but, I think PW is saving the housing system as a last resort in case the game really starts going down the drain lmao I would so love it though *-*

technoplume3

Stop spreading your lies nothing is making this economy value go down. Nothing, not the Mirage nerf in 2009, not the NV run in 2010, not the realease of R9rr in 2011, not the bot in 2012 not the return or mirage in TW in 20somethign, not even the recent china devaluation of item in game. Not evet the last Perfect hammer the put ton of coins on market.

Stop your lies

PS most of those date are probably wrong, but they did happens.

crazyelf

Even I haven't been on for long and I find that Comment Crazy it wouldn't affect the Economy much at all Lol Think you been eating to much fortune Cookies

konataizumichan

Establish a perspective

Define economy value

Then tell me how many times gold cap has been raised in AH

crazyelf

konataizumichan said:

Establish a perspective
Define economy value
Then tell me how many times gold cap has been raised in AH

Exactly what you say Konatai especially with the Gold in AH still thinking the person ate to much fortune Cookies

sylenthunder

konataizumichan wrote: »

Establish a perspective

Define economy value

Then tell me how many times gold cap has been raised in AH

Gold cap in AH has never been changed. It's been a hard cap at 4m since 2008.​​

razzzza

Oh my godness what is this quote system right now..

@demansfairy making it tradeable just makes it so much easier to abuse it.
When you make it untradeable the only thing you can really use of this box are the hammers and nothing more. even that you ony can open a few chests with them and it would take more time.

When its tradeable its like we have it now. Abusers gain way more money from this and can sell them either in the kit or the items only and make probably more money from it.

So by not having them bound to the character you have way more money and can abuse this to the max instead of just use the hammers to open some chests.

you see where im going?

crazyelf

Only Most have 10 alts..anymore then that they have never seen outside for years

razzzza

crazyelf said:

Only Most have 10 alts..anymore then that they have never seen outside for years

very nice signature you got there, so good that i have to adblock it

Also can you imagine that people make additional accounts just for this code to abuse it? the alts dont have to be lv 50 or so for it to work.

konataizumichan

@sylenthunder I respectfully disagree, but I can't see any easy way to prove it one way or the other, so I'll just drop it.

@technoplume3 I'll now attempt to make my point using different words:

Establish a perspective

Define economy value

Then tell me how many times PW has intentionally inflated the value of gold vs coins.

johndoe#4146

this code for tradeable items bs is probably just some smartass at the HQ trying to raise the games status by showing a high number of logins. (specially since it doesn't state those logins are all lvl 1 toons)
betcha betcha the next code that comes out is tradeable too and even more enticing to get ppl to make even more accounts since they realised noone did squat about the abuse with these codes. People selling 4000+ hypers on wc for 10k each.. yeah ok

sylenthunder

konataizumichan wrote: »

@sylenthunder I respectfully disagree, but I can't see any easy way to prove it one way or the other, so I'll just drop it.

@technoplume3 I'll now attempt to make my point using different words:

Establish a perspective

Define economy value

Then tell me how many times PW has intentionally inflated the value of gold vs coins.

It's hard-coded into the server. I have the original server files from when PWI went live in 2008 if you'd like to examine it yourself. It's been brought up in the forums before, though trying to search back 5 or 6 years in the forum atm is a bit of a pain.

In response to "Then tell me how many times PW has intentionally inflated the value of gold vs coins", no one can. However some things that have been brought into the game have had a great impact on changing the value.

Gold was 100k coins in AH, then we got the anniversary pack. Due to the direct coin value of some common items that could be obtained from the pack, it immediately jumped to 150k, and later to 400k. After that, it's mostly supply and demand, and the players themselves causing the inflation in gold prices. It's all about supply and demand, and who has the supply.

Whoever sets the price for gold, also sets the coin value for all other related items in the game. Players set the gold prices. We've also gone outside of the 4m hard-coded cap in AH by direct-sales for boutique items.​​

konataizumichan

@sylenthunder First of all let me say that I do indeed respect your knowledge, I've defended your position more than once in the past, and have sent many people your way when they had technical questions that were over my head.

I'm not trying to turn this into an argument, and was willing to drop it by rewording my original (rhetorical btw) question to technoplume3. In this specific instance, my point and the end result is the same, whether the cap has ever been changed or not. And again my point is that PW has a long history of artificially inflating the economy to get people to pump more cash into the game, or to make it harder for f2p players, or for whatever the reason, it doesn't really matter.

I believe the first instance of this artificial inflation was adding chest of coins as a reward to cube. The server that I was on at that time saw gold prices double over night and never go back. This was when it went from 100k to 200k. And why would the prices ever go back down when hammers were 5 gold and a chest has 1m coins inside. Then came the first anniversary and subsequent packs, and gold rose to 250-500k. I think we know how the rest went.

But regarding that gold cap... If what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt that, then apparently a LOT of us were mislead... and I'm not even going to try to quote all these posts since the forums are being really weird on me today AND the quoting system changed apparently, I'm just going to copy paste and add the appropriate names and dates manually:



posted by opkossy, September 2014:

Back in 09 they actually enforced the rules. When we had an exploit that allowed people to sell off the Duke Rose set for more coin than what even the gold cap of 1mil at the time could keep up with, they had an emergency shut-down, manually removed all the coin, and permabanned all the exploiters they caught.

posted by Vitenka, November 2009

The cap is 1m coin per gold, I believe?
and yes, when we hit it, people will just stop selling gold in the AH and will sell items via catshop and WC instead.


posted by QuickClaw, December 2010

Sooo... not only did PWE ruin the economy
but they removed the 1m cap on gold prices hello 2m gold prices on Lost City
just once more go die in a fire gms i hope someone comes over to your house and breaks something you love.


posted by Quilue, December 2010

Thought the ****ing ceiling was supposed to be 1m.
When did they increase gold ceiling to 4m?


posted by Olbaze, December 2010

The problems are:
1. There was a cap at 1,000,000, but it was removed.
2. Capping Gold would mean that people would just buy the items from people for coins instead and AH would be empty.
3. The Rep sale puts the coin value of Gold to 8,880,000.


posted by Kristina_t, December 2011

We had a 1mill gold cap. Emergency maintenance on December 2nd of last year was done to remove it.


For reference, this was patch 446 that apparently also corrected some pricing issue with rank items in the cash shop.


posted by Purple_fury, July 2011

indeed long long ago there use to be a 1m cap but when gold started getting close to the cap they removed it b:surrender


posted by Tremblewith, July 2011

There used to be a cap @ 1m per. At some point they took the cap off. Everyone that isn't in the buying/selling gold business, and isn't a CS'er, generally wants gold to be at a lower, more stable price. However, Perfect World Entertainment controls the sales, and the sales control the demand for gold.



So yeah, a bunch of us got this idea from somewhere, be it right or wrong. I think it's also worth noting that in the handful of threads out of literally hundreds that I quickly browsed through, no one bothered to correct any of these people except one very well known troll that I will not name due to naming and shaming. I just find that interesting.


In closing, here's a couple of interesting posts, somewhat related I suppose, from Asterelle:


Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: » (August 2014)

Again I'm not sure about it... I just noticed a new config setting called:
"EnableCeilPriceBeforeDiscountToGold = 1"
It's not clear what that setting would do but since it's set to 1 and not 0 maybe they are thinking of removing the limit in the future.


and from December 2011:

This is not really true. The majority of the current gold price is determined by the company and not any player market.

Consider the anni pack: http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/quest/20191
Perfect -Token of Luck - 15 (97%)
Perfect -Token of Best Luck (1.715%)

Those tokens of luck can be sold directly to an NPC for 10k each in coins and the Best Luck for 5m each.

Just these two alone contribute:
15*10k*.97 + 5,000k*.01715 = 231k
231k to the value of the pack in total absence of any player market

The anniversary pack when bought in bulk costs 22 silver. Even factoring in the 2% AH fee.

231K / .22 / 1.02 = 1029 k

Just looking at the tokens from the Anniversary Pack and totally ignoring any player market and totally ignoring every other item in the Anniversary Pack gold would be pegged at 1.029M.

The tokens are contributing the majority influence on the price of gold, not the players. The player market is a minority influence.

razzzza

Mods need to delete stuff that is obviously true and cant handle it *looking at sylent*

anyways i repeat myself again and when someone needs to delete it again tell me what is your problem in pm thanks.

The goldcap was increased at somepoint and the forum had a good amount of discussion about it when it came around.
It was 1mil before it was increased to 4mil but i cant remember at what timeframe they did it. the quotes konata posted assume it was around 2010.

Also i would not put my hand in the fire for sylent words about server files and whatnt because some "impossible" things he said came around sometime so.. take him with a grain of salt. (Adding new characters and server merge just to name two).

cheers​​

sylenthunder

razzzza wrote: »

Mods need to delete stuff that is obviously true and cant handle it *looking at sylent*

anyways i repeat myself again and when someone needs to delete it again tell me what is your problem in pm thanks.

The goldcap was increased at somepoint and the forum had a good amount of discussion about it when it came around.
It was 1mil before it was increased to 4mil but i cant remember at what timeframe they did it. the quotes konata posted assume it was around 2010.

Also i would not put my hand in the fire for sylent words about server files and whatnt because some "impossible" things he said came around sometime so.. take him with a grain of salt. (Adding new characters and server merge just to name two).

cheers

I never said anything was impossible, just not likely because of the cost and difficulty. Maybe you should stop putting words in my mouth. Apparently the cost to do it finally overcame the losses from low server populations.

Also, when did I ever say they would never add new characters? We don't need them, sure. Though truly, to re-design some of the existing classes, too many people would whine about the changes. (like they don't do that now.)

You want to keep attacking me directly in posts, we can make it so you're not able to post anymore.​​

razzzza

sylenthunder wrote: »

Also, when did I ever say they would never add new characters? We don't need them, sure. Though truly, to re-design some of the existing classes, too many people would whine about the changes. (like they don't do that now.)

am i the only one then who remembers some people asking in forums about new classes to come around and if china has plans for it and you jumped in the thread claiming its not possible because we are maxed out on classes and you know it all because you have some files on your computer at home?
Must be right, right? because you said so + you had the allglory "i have em all here" statement for a few things by now.

I wont bother finding it in this forum because its been a few years but i know you stated it.

Also threatening to "shut me up" kinda proofs my first statement in my last post.

Cheers ​​

sylenthunder

"razzzza wrote: »

"Also threatening to "shut me up" kinda proofs my first statement in my last post.

Cheers

It's called harassment, and it will stop, or I will take measures to make it stop.

I imagine you've never been wrong before either?

I also imagine you've never heard of re-writing the original code. If I had stated it was impossible, it's because at the time, it was. It wasn't that long ago that Wanmei had none[.b] of the original developers, and it was quite obvious that the existing dev crew did not have the knowhow to pull it off.

Now get back on topic and stop harassing me.​​

razzzza

Dude nothing against your knowledge about the game code and such but i know a few things myself and knowing that they could rewrite some stuff is in range of my imagination.

The thing which bothers me is that you throw around with "knowledge" you have based around the files you have is just... how do i put it before i get banned... not so good.

This is a mmorpg and that some things get a rework so new things can come around is very possible and even older games get that kind of threadment as you can see here.

whatever dude. im wondering who recommended you as a moderator.


BTT:
The codes should expire today (or they are expired already) and people mass WCing them right now and want to buy them for so low i could laugh at them and sell the hypers alone for more then they want to buy the whole pack for.

I stacked a few myself and will wait for a bit to sell them off so people dont randomly offer me 500k for a pack.

I also hope that PWE never puts in a code again which gives you tradeable items. The code system is meant to be character or account bound and this is a prime example why it should be the case.

Cheers ​​

konataizumichan

Lol welp, I certainly didn't mean to stir up a shitstorm.

My original reply was made casually in passing and meant to be ironic and sarcastic. Because it all depends on whose perspective you're looking at it from and how you define economy value.

But now I'll respond non-sarcastically. There's no debating that over time coin has become a lot less valuable and gold is a lot more expensive than it used to be. It's been like this for a long time.

These recent codes are a drop in the bucket compared to other things in the past that can't be undone. That's why it's ironic.

Mirage nerf in 2009 I don't recall specifically, though I've been here since early 2009... could he/she mean when they changed decomping gear to give mirages? That's a minor factor if so. NV run? I recall aps types making a lot of coin when NV was a thing, must have been nice to have been aps then, again minor in the bigger picture. OP endgame gear in the cash shop? Yeah that's probably going to drive the price of gold right up, pretty huge deal there. Making all normal drops worthless? Irony in and of itself there since they gave us a botting system we never asked for first then nerf the value of all drops. Again, must have been nice to have been there when it happened. When they first turned TW pay into mirages, yeah tons of people complained, because PW was claiming the coin from TW pay was responsible for the inflated economy, when in actuality, the huge majority reason was tokens and perfect tokens from the never ending pack sales.

I don't truly know if the gold cap's ever been raised, I don't have the original server files, and even if I did, I don't have the time to pour over the code and figure it out. But I definitely do remember everyone I know from back then saying the cap was raised and complaining about it. Regardless, I was willing to drop it and reword my original comment to demonstrate multiple paths to the same conclusion as it were.

Now, the artificial inflation. Most people agree inflation is natural and in fact most successful economies target 1-3% yearly. It's a bit harder to stomach when it comes in huge leaps and bounds of 50-100% overnight a couple of times a year, as has been the case with PW over the past 6 years.

And that's all I have to say for tonight. Now, let's all kiss and makeup

heerohex#3018

Either way its happened like this now...

So lets see where this ends...

aeternusdoleo

It will end with a few billion added to the market. Sure, the folk who have a few dozen accounts will have farmed themselves a nice amount of items. Me, I've gotten 8 of these packs in total, and sold none of them - Used the inventory and bank stones to upgrade a few bank alts and farming alts, and the mounts were handy too for the same reason. Not sure what I'll do with those 120 tradeable hypers - Never use them myself. As for the hammers, packratting those chests of coin finally payed off. But even with 8 accounts used, the amount of coin is minor in comparison to the daily server economy. It basically equates to half a week of farming, at most. Sure, you get a lot of coin dumped on the market and we'll probably keep hearing WC calls of "wts hammer 700k" or "wtb coin chest 300k" or something similar for weeks to come. I ignore those.

If the packs would have been non-tradeable it'd still not have solved the problem. Coin is tradeable. Chest of coin is too. So it'd have involved moving over some chests to alts, using them, and moving the coin back to your main. It does not solve the problem of mass hammer creation, and therefor mass coin creation.

Market will stabilize in a week or three. People are far too busy farming nuemas/vita/JFSP anyway.

eirghan

<color="#ff0066">You want to keep attacking me directly in posts, we can make it so you're not able to post anymore.​​

Best Forum Mod 2015


.... inb4 banned from forum

sylenthunder

eirghan wrote: »

You want to keep attacking me directly in posts, we can make it so you're not able to post anymore.

Best Forum Mod 2015


.... inb4 banned from forum

Sorry, but I had been ignoring it long enough and wasn't going to take it anymore. The new forum has some cool settings for limiting trolls.

On topic...

What do you guys think would help bring the gold prices down to a more reasonable level and balance the playing field between the heavy cashers/farmers that currently control the game's economy, and the casual players?
I mean, it is pretty disheartening for the casual guy/gal to be saving up for an item to have it only double in price overnight because everyone gets greedy. I've almost completely quit playing 3 toons just because I cannot afford it anymore.​​

axel320

sylenthunder said:

What do you guys think would help bring the gold prices down to a more reasonable level and balance the playing field between the heavy cashers/farmers that currently control the game's economy, and the casual players?

I mean, it is pretty disheartening for the casual guy/gal to be saving up for an item to have it only double in price overnight because everyone gets greedy. I've almost completely quit playing 3 toons just because I cannot afford it anymore.​​

Honestly, at this point I think the only thing that would save gold prices is a large coin sink that's not also linked to the boutique. Star chart-related items are a decent option for this, honestly, if they'd put them in an NPC vendor instead of the boutique. This would (1) decrease demand for gold (well, technically, prevent its increase due to the items being in the boutique); (2) remove some coin from the economy, thus increasing its value; and (3) give csers more incentive to actually sell their gold for coin.

An arguably better option would be for some consumables to be coin-purchasable; candidates here include, perhaps, crabs/herbs, guardian scrolls, and charms (possibly teles as well, but I could see an argument against it as well). This would simultaneously decrease demand for tokens (=> lower pack value => less demand for / lower price for gold) and would provide a more consistent, long-term sink than items like star-chart related ones that are no longer needed once you "complete" your chart.

konataizumichan

It's a multi-faceted problem that's gone on like this for so long, I don't know if there's any saving it honestly.

It's not just about bringing gold prices down. The value of coin needs to be brought back up, and apparently that's something China is not willing to do. Even if that were to happen, something also needs to be done about the availability of coin. Assuming all these things were to happen, it will all be in vain unless it's absolutely unable to be abused and taken advantage of. ALL these things have to happen at the same time to "fix" the economy, if you're looking at it from the perspective of a casual cs'er or f2p type.

If you look at it from the perspective of a heavy cs'er, or a farmer that already made their billions back in the day by merching or abusing glitches or taking advantage of exploits, then the current state of things is really no problem. Obviously you want your dollars to bring as much coin as possible. If you're already sitting on a few bil or more, you can afford to be take chances in the market and even be wrong a few times without it really hurting.

China knows exactly what they're doing, they learned long ago that it's more profitable in the short term to cater to the heavy cs'ers, sell power directly in the cash shop, and not worry about the little guy. As long as they keep new players coming in they have a steady stream. But look at what's already started to happen with their economy. Things look bad in the future for them. PW today is just the same thing on a much smaller scale.

I don't know how to make all the people happy all the time. I don't have the answers and solutions, I just try to walk through life with my eyes open and pay attention to what's going on around me.

razzzza

eirghan wrote: »

You want to keep attacking me directly in posts, we can make it so you're not able to post anymore.

Best Forum Mod 2015


.... inb4 banned from forum

Well i cant report his post well played sir. i dont know how or why he became a mod but he uses his "power" already to get his way.
I also cant find ANY option to send PMs to people so... hey mod how do i pm people. make yourself useful for once.

Anyways @konataizumichan you brought up a few points where PWI influenced the economy and wanted to look back to it aswell.
Mirage nerf in 2009 i cant recall myself what happened but it wasnt the fairy box removement from TT thats for sure that came way later like in 2011.
NV actually was a neat thing. some people call it a very boring instance but i enjoyed running it. APS squads where a big thing yes and it was very expensive too so i dont know why PW destroyed that instance because alot of ppl wanted that aps and charged for it.
Maybe it wasnt enough for them and they wanted ppl to charge for NW gear instead. dunno.
OP endgame gear is a double edge sword. it was so expensive back then that only a few top faction members bothered. ofc alot of ppl would get only the weapon (sin especially) but full r9 and refined with good shards wasnt the norm until it got very cheap to recast (a cyber monday or black friday was a huge deal back then too and people charged like crazy at that day for r9.)
the dropnerf was only very minor back then because packs where around for awhile and crashed alot of prices before the first DQ points got their price reduced. the last nerf to the drops (all of em) was just to stop botters running 10 clients and making tons of coins. irony is that they gave us the tools to do it so.. eh.

What i see as the biggest rollout to destroy the economy are the packs for sure and PWI enforced the prices for them anyways with the big notes for 2 lucky tokens making them worth 5mil each.
I hated them when they came around.


Cheers ​​

konataizumichan

@razzzza Just to be clear, I was only responding to the things @technoplume3 brought up. Those wouldn't be my first choice of points to bring up in a discussion about the economy. Most of those things were minor issues so far as effecting the economy goes, but having endgame gear in the cash shop in a f2p game is a huge red flag. Especially when it's as OP as r9 and a few of the things that come out of packs that would otherwise be almost impossible to get any other way.

I had no problems with NV, even as a caster. I had r8 at the time and r8 was still fine gear for that point in time. Lots of people had a problem with 5aps but hey, every class will have their 15 minutes of fame, this I can accept.

NW was actually a great equalizer, imo the best thing since genies. Well that and maybe nien/tigers event. It gave casual players a way to get some nice gear or coin fairly easily and was a lot of fun up until the recent merge, but now rewards have gone to ****. You can't really expect for anything nice like that to last forever.

And you're right about DQ, at first it was minimal, then slowly over a long period of time it got chipped away to nothing. But before that happened, you could use it to get event gold and other things that were pretty dang useful.

It's also important to note that all the while when DQ was being nerfed, each and every time the reason given was that botting is a huge problem in China. Because they've always allowed offline gold selling. This was brought up as a concern in our forums before the game even went into open beta. Botting was never a major issue here until they gave us an in-game bot, and even then it's debatable.

You're also right about the packs. But it's not the packs in and of themselves that are the problem. When they first came out during 1 year anni, it was promised that they'd only be around for a short time and then be gone. Several months later, as I recall, they came back and stayed back. Then sale after sale after sale.

Furthermore, none of the numerous glitches, exploits, and abuse would have ever been a major issue here if they hadn't set a flawless precedent of never doing anything to the people that break the rules. If I had thrown morals, decency, and caution to the wind and jumped on that bandwagon back in the day, I wouldn't even be here complaining now.