Thanks for the update GCrush.
As much as I love Nightmare Wizardry I am a bit concerned this could negatively impact the improvments to GF's marks giving combat advantage especially being such a low tiered feat that most every wizard took anyway. On top of that it will be much easier for a wizard to consistently apply nightmare wizardry (given the 12 second duration) compared to the very temporary staus effect of marks that the GF has.
I don't want to cry nerf but perhaps instead of combat advantage this power could give a damage debuff for a better interaction between the classes?
IMO that would help the cleric heal and help the GF survive the increased threat generation.
Here's an idea for Mark synergy and GFs, double the effect of Mark when the GF has combat advantage. So instead of just 2x threat, now they get 4x threat. This should not just give them better threat control, but also encourage them to work with other people in the party to establish combat advantage to everyone's benefit.
Since threat does nothing in PvP, no one should have any concerns that it would make GFs OP in PvP or something.
Also Magic missile damage nerf needs to be reverted, currently after my tests chilling cloud does 20% more damage than magic missile on a single target (this is with arcane stacks).
I really hope they revert the damage debuff on Magic Missile. I was always under the impression that Chilling Cloud did less damage due to the AoE potential of the 3rd strike. Thus Magic Missile had better single target DPS. For that matter, how does Magic Missile and Ray of Frost compare on preview?
I really hope they revert the damage debuff on Magic Missile. I was always under the impression that Chilling Cloud did less damage due to the AoE potential of the 3rd strike. Thus Magic Missile had better single target DPS. For that matter, how does Magic Missile and Ray of Frost compare on preview?
crimsonsword88Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited July 2014
Feedback: Oppressor Feat Tree
To start off, this is feedback based on my experiences using a spellstorm oppressor in PVE, not PVP.
The capstone feat, Shatter Strike, currently has an internal cooldown that prevents chill from being reapplied to a target for 10 seconds after that target has been frozen. This change is puzzling to me as it breaks many synergies with the class. These synergies are listed below:
Cold Infusion (Paragon Feat), Bitter Cold (Paragon Feat), and Alacrity (Paragon Feat), trigger when damage is done to a chilled target.
Blighting Power (heroic feat) and Chilling Presence (class feature) do additional damage to targets that are chilled.
Glacial Movement (paragon feat) and Chilling Control (spellstorm paragon feat) apply additional stacks of chill to a target.
All seven of these abilities are rendered useless during the shatter strike cooldown. It seems as though this cooldown was implemented to prevent chain stunning of targets; however, this could be accomplished through an ICD on shattering a target. Honestly, I don't even know why shatter strike needs this component to begin with, as the increased duration of chill and increased damage to control immune monsters are both incredibly useful.
In short, the capstone feat of the oppressor tree isn't even attractive to me anymore. Sure, I gain a five second stun every 10 seconds, but I already get a 4 second stun every 20 seconds from my frost enchanted weapon. Sure, I do additional damage to control immune targets, but I do significantly less damage to everything else because chilling presence, blighting power, and bitter cold have huge gaps when they are not active. To top it all off, the main benefit of chill (and the reason why I play an oppressor on the Live server) is the slowing effect, not the stunning effect. The capstone feat now removes that method of controlling a target due to the quick rate at which targets are shattered (i.e. frozen). The oppressor, who already freezes targets quickly, now does so with extraordinary speed due to the changes to glacial movement and chilling control. This makes the cooldown time when things can't be chilled even more glaring.
Note, this gripe about shatter strike has also been stated in a previous post, but this change is so paradoxical to me, that I've posted my concerns as well.
I should elaborate on this. The Shatter effect prevents new stacks of chill from being applied to a target until the stun has worn off, but it leaves existing stacks until the base freeze actually expires. Additionally the effects of your feats, while Cold Infusion does not show a debuff icon (which arguably might be worth changing) are *not* removed. Bitter Cold and Cold Infusion do appropriately get applied with each Chill stack that goes on (including the last one) meaning from the time they get Frozen and the Shatter successfully expires (which on an NPC can vary from 5~8 seconds) you will see close to 100% uptime on Cold Infusion and better than 85% uptime on Bitter Cold.
However there is currently a bug where some cases the original mark that could trigger the stun isn't being purged correctly, which is resulting in the incorrect behavior. That fix will hopefully make it next week sometime.
Hey all, I wanted to drop in and share a few more changes that will be hitting in the next week or two.
We still want Wizards to feel like a viable DPS class while they are specced into Thaumatuge (and a bit more group utility focused in Renegade) so we are making some buffs to feats in those trees to reinforce that.
Thaumaturge:
Transcended Master: Shard of the Endless Avalanche now deals an additional 5/10/15/20/25% damage (up from 2/4/6/8/10%). Icy Rays now deals an additional 5/10/15/20/25% damage when used on a single target (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and has a 1/2/3/4/5 second shorter cooldown if used on two different targets (up from .5/1/1.5/2/2.5).
Elemental Empowerment: Warped Magics now deals 100% of Weapon Damage each tick (up from 50%). Creeping Frost now deals 170% of Weapon Damage each tick (up from 85%).
Assailing Force: ICD reduced to 5 seconds (down from 15 seconds).
Renegade:
Nightmare Wizardry: When you critically strike a foe you have a 4/8/12/16/20% chance (up from 1/2/3/4/5%) to grant you and your allies Combat Advantage against the target for 12 seconds.
Phantasmal Destruction: Now has a 40% chance to activate (up from 25%).
Chaos Magic: Chaotic Nexus now grants 10% Armor Penetration and Critical Chance (up from 5%).
Chaos Magic: Chaotic Fury now grants 10% increased damage and 5% direct Life Steal (rather than adjusting your stats).
These changes should move much more of the performance into the feat trees, allowing Wizards to use their feats to more accurately define their performance and style of play.
Thanks for listening in regards to the NW and i really like all of the other changes - again i complement the team on listening to the feedback threads, i think it's gold.
I tend to agree with everyone here though, being a Renegade CW, that NW either needs to be reduced time (from 12 seconds to 6 seconds as suggested) or simply just switch NW and PD around, so oppressors and thaum CW's aren't able to get the benefit from NW (which lets face is, is the be all and end all of the Renegade tree at the moment).
No one will spec into PD without also having NW, so it should work perfectly.
Thanks for the update GCrush.
As much as I love Nightmare Wizardry I am a bit concerned this could negatively impact the improvments to GF's marks giving combat advantage especially being such a low tiered feat that most every wizard took anyway. On top of that it will be much easier for a wizard to consistently apply nightmare wizardry (given the 12 second duration) compared to the very temporary staus effect of marks that the GF has.
I don't want to cry nerf but perhaps instead of combat advantage this power could give a damage debuff for a better interaction between the classes?
IMO that would help the cleric heal and help the GF survive the increased threat generation.
While i agree with your top points, if you took combat advantage off NW then the tree would break again. I only say that because the idea is you get NW and PD together to maximize damage. With the new updates to EOTS for SS CWs (I'm a MoF anyway) i think it will even out, or it may even make critical chance viable again as a stat for Renegades. Though as i stated above, i agree that 12 seconds is too long.
So really CWs are extremely survivable as well as top in damage dealing
My DPS CW can't survive alone even the first wave of enemies in CN, where I know GWFs who can solo waves. CW is the WORST controlling class in PvP and super squishy so why should it be worst class in PvE too? Rogues can stealth or do greatest single target damage (Actually GWFs might some times be able to outperform them), Clerics can heal, GF is super boring but still has great survivability (and paintrain that keep CW on ground until dead on PvP if the GF is skilled enough and gets close of CW) and well built IV GWF is night unstoppable doing great group and single damage and best paintrain to keep CWs on the ground in PvP the few seconds it takes them to squish them. Ranger can spam rooting arrows that also daze for second, have longer range than CW and stealth. What exactly is left to CW if the group damage and best PvE group control is taken out?
Before you start to nerf CW, please consider this:
1) Is CW the most played class? Shouldn't it be if it was so OP? Why still Ranger is the most common class?
2) Is it so bad that there is one class best suited for soloing PvE?
3) If CW is not the future group damage dealer, then who is? Plase don't make GWF, as I would really hate to be forced to play class where main point is to rush forward and hit everything that moves until it doesn't.
4) If you limit CWs ability to control mobs, for example by making Arcane Singularity affect less mobs, then how are people going to survive the epic dungeons? Dread Vault for example can be entered with GS 8300 but last night when we had party mostly a bit over 10k GS, there simply wasn't enough muscle to handle the boss, even though we had my 15k CW, another 10k CW and 17k GWF. When CWs have less control, how does that affect playablity as whole?
5) If CW group damage is too high (CWs are NEVER the damage queens when there are plenty of singular though enemies), is that really because of the setups or because of some item set is too powerful. If item set is too powerfull, wouldn't it just be easier to nerf it instead of complete class? High Vizier is the most used because set it buffs whole group damage and costs plenty. Many CWs think there really is no alternative.
I do agree that most clerics simply suck (although I have seen tank debuffer that that was able to solo kill my CW with ease) and in PvE, GF REALLY needs some reworking because it simply sucks there, but wouldn't is be better to buff them than nerf CW?
I am going to give CW a try regardless what happens, but should it be nerfed enough that I can't anymore survive Icewind Dale with my squishy CW that has 27k HP, I definitely will retire it and my account with it, as I would really hate to have spent all that time to gather resources for my main, only to see it nerfed into oblivion.
Few points:
Arcane Stacks:
These are complete waste of time. CW needs to move if he wishes to stay alive with his squishines and even single blink will reset all stacks. I won't even bother with the stacks anymore as I know I must move after every spell because my damage output means every single enemy will be after me, usually the moment I cast my first Wizard's <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in the beginning of the fight. I don't use even Magic Missile anymore at all because of this, as Ray of Frost is so much faster to cast, slows enemies and seems to proc effects more often.
Shards of Endless Avalanche aka Wizard's <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>:
This is the main damaging spell, but it is buggy as hell. I some time wonder why am I using it because of all the bugs on it, but the reason is that there really is no alternative. It gets randomly stuck on ground and it might be pushable if you go a bit backwards, which will still delay it for 2 seconds or so and you have no second try if you miss as the explosion counting has started. It has tendency to appear slightly on side of center, usually left, especially if there is any lag, which will cause it to miss the targets. It has also tendency to appear on top of you if you are close to wall, making pushing it impossible. It won't explode if Singularity has been cast, as Singularity seems to make mobs transparent for this spell. If you are stunned or controlled when cast, it will disappear. It takes ages to cast, which means many times enemies have simply moved out of its way or some GWF/GF has pushed mobs out of its way. The controlling spects of this spell are negligible, as the enemies will be on feet in about second, which is much less than with any spell. This spell is completely unusable in pvp because of all of this and as it is easy to dodge and thus I enjoy every timer I see enemy CW using it. Should it be nerfed, it will be quite much rubbish, how already many CWs seem to see it already.
Please fix the bugs and change it so that by pressing the push button, it will be pushed in the direction the CW is facing (If CW faces 30 decrees east from north, the ball will be pushed into direction 30 decrees east from north from the spot it stands), regardless of is the CW close to it or not. This will atleast remove the impossibility to push when it appears too close to walls.
Steal Time:
This spell is just about the best CW has. It does decent damage, even if much less than SoEA and actually has a decent timed stun effect and in addition slows the enemies during casting. Bad things are that it is slow to cast, which means enemy hordes have much time to land punches on you and even worse, you must be in middle of them to effectively cat this spell. Here less damage means that CW don't have enough damage output to survive many encounters and even worse, it becomes useless if it takes longer to cast or lasts less time. This really is no pvp spell, as you are dead or interrupted long time before you have cast this, as in PvP CW so close to enemies to be able to cast this is already dead. Only when there are plenty of TRs, this can be used to root them out of stealth, but the long time means that any TR worth his salt is long gone before this blasts out or has just killed you with his daily.
Chill Strike aka Iceball:
This is mostly a **** spell. It was great when I got it, but at level 60, I use it only because I don't have any other fourth group damage spell and it does a bit more damage to groups. Trade off is it must be put on spell mastery, which would be better used for other spells. It is weak spell in PvP as it is really slow to cast, but has some use if you happen to be loooooooooooong way away from the enemies, like in pillar. Damage is well enough to usually kill the weakest mobs like imps on groups, but you can't count on that and is negligible with stronger foes.
Icy Rays:
Best Single target damage spell CW has, as it roots and does quite good damage. Nerf this one and PvP will be even more hell than it already is and you just killed the only decent single target spell CW had. Quite fast to cast if you can tap fast enough, but has tendency to spread among enemies if cast on close group, which means no rooting and damage is decimated. Also good GWFs seem to be unaffected with the spell, damage being negligible and no root at all.
Entangling Force:
**** spell. Does poor damage and does no damage to most bosses and elite mobs like giants. This is usable in pvp because it buys you some time against clerics and CWs, which are the only targets that you can hope to kill if you don't have much larger GS, perfect position with someone else keeping the enemy occupied or the enemy skills or build simply sucks. The casting time is simply too long to even try to cast against GWF (and they are usually immune to it anyways) or GF charging you from near distance. Also GF shield blocks it. Can't be cast on stealth rogues and even if they are out of stealth, if they are able to stealth when you are about to cast it, it fails. Also dodging fails it, even if the person dodged just prior to casting. Usable only if you cast on unaware person or root them before. Also ranger spamming root arrows can spam faster than you can cast it, meaning unless he does a mistake, you aren't gripping him. Any longer casting time will surely kill this spell and the damage is already so negligible to ONE person that I wouldn't notice if it were completely gone (although it is small joy to see slight damage when the spell bounces off from enemy).
Conduit of Ice:
This one is good for both PvE and PvP. Does decent damage, but in PvE as it doesn't control at all and does it during a long time, it is a trade off. I mostly use it for the mitigation bonus to get my other spells to hit harder, to upkeep frost stacks or to replenish my AP when there is huge enemy group when weakening the enemies. In pvp I use it to keep that TR slightly longer out of stealth, get him off from stealth by casting this on the shadow he just cast, finish almost dead fleeing TR with the DoT when I aren't fast enough to follow. This is one of the actually usefull spells, but I am certainly not sure how it could be nerfed without making it useless at the same time. If the damage is made less, it should replenish AP faster to keep AP gain comparable. If it affects less mobs, same thing.
Repel:
The damage here is negligible and nobody uses it for damage. It is usable only in certain dungeons where it makes life so much easier when you can cast mobs off the cliff. Also usable in PvP to keep enemies at bay, although the weak damage makes your life really hard in PvP when you could have it replaced with damaging spell and when you are in good position where you should be, it just kicks enemies out of your range and thus can't be used. I almost never use it, except in those very specific dungeons. So weak spell that nering it would be pointless.
Shield:
Another weak spell. Usable in some instances, but generally used only for the push effect. Some actually use it for damage with Arcane Singularity. I really never use it.
Icy Terrain:
Got this only so recently that I really can't say much about this. I haven't bothered to test it much as the damage is so ridiculously low, but I guess the control effect is worth something for someone as some CWs seem to use it. Nerf it and I will even less bother to test it. Not my loss.
Sudden Storm:
This spell has one of the best damages for any encounter spells and also shortest recharge from any encounter I know. Personally I don't use it and here is why: It needs double tap to cast, even when it should be cast on the CW facing with one push. It doesn't seem to crit, which eats damage and won't work well with Eye of the Storm. It has ridiculously low range, which doesn't bother if you use it in conjunction with Steal Time but does bother at the start of combat and even more in PvP. No control effect at all, meaning if you didn't kill that enemy, you just got hit which is a bad thing. The range and lack of any control are the reasons I personally prefer Iceball instead of this, but it is quite popular among many CWs. Only good in PvP if there are plenty of stealth TRs you need to try to root out from short range, but even then success is marginal. Nerf the damage and you just made the spell useless. Please remove the need for second tap to cast it as it really should be cast with one click on the direction CW is facing.
Ray of Enfeeblement:
Here the damage is not bad, which is actually second best from CW single target spells. Also the casting time is fast enough that you are actually able to cast that as last ditch for the charging berserker coming to slaughter you and slightly help your allies even when you are dead. The damage is not the main point, but the mitigation. If you are about to nerf the mitigation, you are making this useless. CW isn't even the third best single target damage dealer, so single target damage can't be the problem and here the mitigation is used to give your allied fighters an edge against strong foes. Be very careful here or the CW will be soon completely useless against giants, PvP enemies and bosses. I use this one in PvP and in boss fights or when I hunt giants or Remorhaz'.
Maelstrom of Chaos:
Not very damaging spell and thus rarely used. Only use I have been able to find for it is to throw fighters back in Icewind PvP, as it shields you from their controlling effects during casting and seems to actually work on them. Gives you little time to flee. It has its uses but is basically so weak that nobody rarely uses it.
Arcane Singularity:
Excellent Spell in PvE. Does decent damage, not good but decent and keeps MOST of the enemies at bay for some time, although if they can jump that won't stop usually them form damaging you but gives time to prepare your other spells. Also the main use is to gather enemies into one bunch to cast your Wizard <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> or help the fighters to bash the enemies in one pile. If you are to nerf this one, BE VERY VERY CAREFUL! Without this spell, many of the boss fights will become much harder and impossible without even larger gear score in the party. Useless in PvP, as everyone but the dumbest GF can dodge it with ease and takes so long to cast that you can basically take a nap in between and you are basically asking it to be interrupted.
Ice Knife:
Very useful spell and hasn't left my daily slot since I got it. It is also single target spell, the only single target daily CW has. Does good damage for bosses, but control effects in PvP or boss fights are negligible. Nerf damage and it will be easily useless, nerfing control effects can be hard when there is nothing to nerf. Only versus other mages and clerics seem the control kick in, which helps in PvP.
Oppressive Force:
The only group damaging spell that actually does some noticeable group damage CW has, but the main use comes from elsewhere. Main use is to slow enemies and get Combat Advantage bonus for you and group when the spell is active to increase your damage. Is fast to cast in PvE, but annoyingly slow to cast in PvP, as GWFs have annoying habit of interrupting it when casting, which spoils the spell and depletes your AP and as it must be cast in the middle of group, you many times are dead before you can even start to cast it. Still the only half decent daily spell for PvP.
Ice Storm:
Useless in dungeons and skirmishes and I HATE every CW who uses it, as I have seen just too often that I use Singularity to finish some group off with Wizard's <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> just to see another weakling CW to disperse the group with IS afterwards when he thinks he can steal the kills or do more damage or something and then I can't finish the group fast when they are dispersed. This would be the second most useful daily spell in PvP. It might be the best if it wasn't even easier to interrupt by GWFs than Oppressive Force and OF gives small damage increase for party also. For me it is **** spell so if you want to nerf it, go ahead and make life even worse for noobs.
Furious Immolation:
This is the spell I am jealous of to Master of Flame path CWs. It is like Arcane Singularity without all the negative sides and actually does some damage too. It is fast to cast and gathers enemies faster than Singularity, which makes it really good for PvP and PvE. Sadly MoF path does much less DPS in general than Spellstorm, so I and most other CWs simply skip it. I would be very careful here too to not take out the reason the other path CWs even exists at all. Other than that, can't say much about the MoF.
Only at wills the Spellstorm CW has that are basically usefull are Ray of Frost and Magic Missile. The others are used just for buffs or secondary effects. If you take damage from MM, you are basically making it useless too, as it is simply used for the best DPS from them all and maybe for the paragon path final power of Renegade Ray of Frost gives some control and the others are basically toys what I have been testing them, but MM you usually use for extra DPS when you can't cast encounters, but the real damage always comes from encounter uses so if you want to make MM useless, please do so.
I am personally having even now hard time in many dungeons with the mobs, like the epic Dread Vault when there are only CWs and GWFs and even more without GWF. My damage output makes the Illithids come after me or just the fact that I am closest, but they aren't fast enough to kill when the GWF is DPSing the boss. Soon there are just too many after me and I simply don't have time to cast even the control spells before they have stunned me if I even try and all time goes simply to moving around. Take any control out and this will become even worse, take damage out and this situation will build up even faster, so please be very careful if nerf CW, sa frankly I'm not sure which class would take over control or group DPS from them and IMO GWF is much more in need of some adjustment than CW. CW after all is already dead waste on PvP and Cockatrices, Spheres of black Ice and Sigils of Rogue have made this even worse.
Here were my two cents.
Give us 4 or more power/item bar profiles so we can change powers and items with one click that are suited for the situation.
We still want Wizards to feel like a viable DPS class while they are specced into Thaumatuge (and a bit more group utility focused in Renegade) so we are making some buffs to feats in those trees to reinforce that.
... omitted ...
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
So, does this mean that the CW is intended to be able to compete with pure DPS classes (TR, HR, GWF) on damage? If a class that, regardless of build, has the best control (as well as some of the best debuffs) in the game can also deal top damage, then how do you see the value of pure damage classes with little to no utility measure up to the controller in PVE?
PS: I apologize for the non-feedback post here - i simply wanted to address the post from Gentleman Crush in this thread directly, and would ask anyone other then the person quoted to not reply to this post in order to avoid further pollution of the thread.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I agree with every point of your post, up to the detail. You showed exactly the current situation.
For example, entangle needs a buff for pvp... currently my casting time is longer than certain GWFs (without using unstoppable) are rooted in it. An increase in casting times without compensation which takes into account the squishieness of our class is just a horrible idea. And the AP nerf was also way over the top which was required. Why meeles have ranged instant CCs while the 'controller' class has long casting times? Something is rotten here.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
So, does this mean that the CW is intended to be able to compete with pure DPS classes (TR, HR, GWF) on damage? If a class that, regardless of build, has the best control (as well as some of the best debuffs) in the game can also deal top damage, then how do you see the value of pure damage classes with little to no utility measure up to the controller in PVE?
PS: I apologize for the non-feedback post here - i simply wanted to address the post from Gentleman Crush in this thread directly, and would ask anyone other then the person quoted to not reply to this post in order to avoid further pollution of the thread.
Except your question is directed at opinions that Crush never stated. No where did Crush say that the class is intended to compete with pure DPS classes "regardless of build", that's an assumption you've lept to on your own.
What Crush stated was that they wanted the class to feel viable as DPS when "specced into Thaumatuge". He did not say viable DPS while as Opressor or Renegade. He next mentions that the Renegade line should focus on group utility.
You could read this as Crush having implied what the devs feel the that the two different roles of the two different spec trees should be; Thaum= DPS, Reneg= Support/Utility. Instead, you somehow combine those separate options into an interpretation that would mean the class would be able to concurrently master all the trees to achieve the "best control" and "top dps" at the same time.
I agree with every poiint of your post, up to the detail. You showed exactly the current situation
No. He expressed his opinion and i agree on the PVE part, but to be honest for PVP almost everything he said is completely not true.
-He said that shard is unviable in pvp and he's happy when the enemy cw is using it..
-He said that entangling force is ****.
-He said that chill strike is **** and that you are forced to be faaaaaaaaaaar far from the opponent for it to be decent..
-27k hp..
Do i really have to add anything??
I respect everyone's feedback or opinion, but please don't say that what he said reflect the current state of cw in pvp because i bet the comments on those essential encounters are hilarious to every single pvp cw in this thread.
Except your question is directed at opinions that Crush never stated. No where did Crush say that the class is intended to compete with pure DPS classes "regardless of build", that's an assumption you've lept to on your own.
What Crush stated was that they wanted the class to feel viable as DPS when "specced into Thaumatuge". He did not say viable DPS while as Opressor or Renegade. He next mentions that the Renegade line should focus on group utility.
You could read this as Crush having implied what the devs feel the that the two different roles of the two different spec trees should be; Thaum= DPS, Reneg= Support/Utility. Instead, you somehow combine those separate options into an interpretation that would mean the class would be able to concurrently master all the trees to achieve the "best control" and "top dps" at the same time.
You misunderstood me a bit there - i said it was the best CONTROLLER regardless of build. Meaning, even with a pure dps build, no other class can compete with CW-s control. If a pure dps cw build would loose 90% of the control and debuffs, that would be perfectly fine (and i mean that as in a build, not simply swapping out some powers any time you like). At the moment, a cw with ANY build beats other classes in utility, only a dc who is pure utility can compete on that.
You need to stop putting words like "best controller" and CW into the same sentences because the devs is gonna think that we have control in a PvP match and that's just not true. Sure if everybody didn't have deflect, CC immunity and tenacity etc that just makes our control useless then we would have control.
Wow , thanks so much for listening to the feedback , this definitely makes the class more viable as a ranged dps class , can't wait till it gets patched in so I can try out the changes and see what the class is like.
You need to stop putting words like "best controller" and CW into the same sentences because the devs is gonna think that we have control in a PvP match and that's just not true. Sure if everybody didn't have deflect, CC immunity and tenacity etc that just makes our control useless then we would have control.
True, which is why I said i was talking about PVE. I do agree that cw needs a buff in PVP, and the most obvious way to do that would be to buff single target damage and defenses (which work best in PVP) while lowering AOE dps (which works best in PVE).
Now, the following is purely about PVE:
If MOST of CW-s control came from a specific tree, that would loose MOST of the damage that would be great. Either DPS or control, but not both. Currently, the CW with a dps build can achieve top dps while loosing very little control compared to the other classes. Consider the utility value of any other DPS class in PVE against that of a full DPS CW. If the DPS cw build lost majority of their control ability, that would make them equal to other DPS classes or "balanced" as far as utility+dps goes.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
No. He expressed his opinion and i agree on the PVE part, but to be honest for PVP almost everything he said is completely not true.
Oh, yes I may have missed this: Shard is indeed extremely useful in pvp in its current state (especially on tab) although it is tedious if you are chased by a gwf/gf - only if you can sit in the back and have time to cast it. Chill Strike is currently 'lala' in pvp imo... I find it too slow there and not so usefull.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,259Arc User
Hey all, I wanted to drop in and share a few more changes that will be hitting in the next week or two.
We still want Wizards to feel like a viable DPS class while they are specced into Thaumatuge (and a bit more group utility focused in Renegade) so we are making some buffs to feats in those trees to reinforce that.
Thaumaturge:
Transcended Master: Shard of the Endless Avalanche now deals an additional 5/10/15/20/25% damage (up from 2/4/6/8/10%). Icy Rays now deals an additional 5/10/15/20/25% damage when used on a single target (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and has a 1/2/3/4/5 second shorter cooldown if used on two different targets (up from .5/1/1.5/2/2.5).
Elemental Empowerment: Warped Magics now deals 100% of Weapon Damage each tick (up from 50%). Creeping Frost now deals 170% of Weapon Damage each tick (up from 85%).
Assailing Force: ICD reduced to 5 seconds (down from 15 seconds).
Renegade:
Nightmare Wizardry: When you critically strike a foe you have a 4/8/12/16/20% chance (up from 1/2/3/4/5%) to grant you and your allies Combat Advantage against the target for 12 seconds.
Phantasmal Destruction: Now has a 40% chance to activate (up from 25%).
Chaos Magic: Chaotic Nexus now grants 10% Armor Penetration and Critical Chance (up from 5%).
Chaos Magic: Chaotic Fury now grants 10% increased damage and 5% direct Life Steal (rather than adjusting your stats).
These changes should move much more of the performance into the feat trees, allowing Wizards to use their feats to more accurately define their performance and style of play.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Thanks, this changes have much more sense to me, who wants big damage from shard must "specialize", and now seems that Thauma will be viable in Pvp as damage dealers with that icy rays buff, and I can see the 3 paths viable (control, personal dps, party buffer)
But I see renegade a less usefull than others in current state, if renegade will be focused in team, can I suggest a change in phantasmal destruction to be more team oriented?
Now: Phantasmal Destruction: When you deal Combat Advantage damage you have a 25% chance (down from 100%) to grant 3/6/9/12/15% Critical Severity for 6 seconds.
Suggested: Phantasmal Destruction: When you deal Combat Advantage damage you have a 25% chance (down from 100%) to grant you and allies 3/6/9/12/15% Critical Severity for 6 seconds.
If 3/6/9/12/15% is too much, 4/6/8/10/12% can be good too
Now: Phantasmal Destruction: When you deal Combat Advantage damage you have a 25% chance (down from 100%) to grant 3/6/9/12/15% Critical Severity for 6 seconds.
Suggested: Phantasmal Destruction: When you deal Combat Advantage damage you have a 25% chance (down from 100%) to grant you and allies 3/6/9/12/15% Critical Severity for 6 seconds.
If 3/6/9/12/15% is too much, 4/6/8/10/12% can be good too
Agreed!
I suggested this a few pages back. I think this would be a nice upgrade to the Renegade tree, making it a more compelling choice.
Thanks for saving Renegades. I'd love to test it when the changes reach preview.
I don't use High Viziers set, thus there are many Thauma, GWFs, some HRs and TRs that are able to outdps me. I saw no point in nerfing this tree to uselessness and I'm glad Devs listened. Maybe adjusting HV set would do better then destroying feats.
I'm only worried about Renegade CW state in PvP. New shard might make up for loss of damage, but crippling single target skills that already were weak seams not logical, since CW is everything but the strongest class in PvP.
Again: curious to test it once changes are implemented.
Bids he then the spruces to singer him an anthems!
And the Woodsie Lord binders them fleshes to stone!
One more test to put out there for documentation purposes. Using my current Thaumaturge AOE build, here is what my CW can do on a single target on the preview server.
This was 5 minutes on the test dummy in Caer-Konig using Icy Rays on tab, Ray of Enfeeblement, Conduit of Ice, Chill Strike, Ice Knife, Chilling presence, and eye of the storm. I had a perfect vorpal weapon enchantment and I waited to use Ice Knife for when Eye of the Storm activated so I got 100% crits with it. I tried to alternate Magic Missile and Storm Pillar.
I ended up with about 7k DPS.
For the sake of comparison, I have a 12k TR with mismatched gear, an off-hand black ice dagger as a main hand weapon (not corrupted or purified, just the one you buy from the vendor), no weapon enchantment, 4k power, only a DC as a companion (no stat-boosting ioun stone) and he does 6.6k DPS on a single target. I totally get TR's SHOULD be better at single target damage than CW's. But when a badly, badly undergeared TR can do the same single target damage as a fully decked out CW it gives you an idea of what CW's are up against in PvP where they will face TR's, GWF's and HR's who can do easily double or triple the damage of my sorry TR on a single target.
Edit: also this same test yielded 11,378 DPS on the live server. So single target sustained damage has been nerfed by 38%. That's a painful drop considering CW's were rather poor at single-target damage to begin with.
Hey all, I wanted to drop in and share a few more changes that will be hitting in the next week or two.
We still want Wizards to feel like a viable DPS class while they are specced into Thaumatuge (and a bit more group utility focused in Renegade) so we are making some buffs to feats in those trees to reinforce that.
[...]
These changes should move much more of the performance into the feat trees, allowing Wizards to use their feats to more accurately define their performance and style of play.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Nice changes
Is there any chance that the shield be reworked to make it a viable option ?
Or a little more ability to teleport ?
Or the stamina that regenerates a little faster ? A rework of Lightning teleport (tier 3 heroic feat) will be great because we will no longer kill anyone so easily (this is even more true in pvp). Scourge Warlock has an heroic feat (tier 2) like this.
Or even a little more armor CA ?
Something that allows us to not die too fast ?
Again sorry for my english... i promise i'm learning !
Chaotic neutral - so i can do whatever the hell i want
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charkanramonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 51Arc User
edited July 2014
Suggestion:
Remove the Arcane Mastery and replace Master Control. By giving critical hit in control abilities, the effect is different or stronger.
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thanat0s666Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 10Arc User
edited July 2014
I have also run some ACT parses on both Live and Preview server with my main Thauma Spellstorm CW (PVE build). My CW is with full High Vizier set and Greater Vorpal enchantment.
Tested at Dread Ring dummies for about 5 mins long using my regular Skills Rotation: Conduit of Ice (Tab) > Steal Time > Sudden Storm > Shard. At Will: Chilling Cloud whenever encounters were on cooldown and Daily: Oppressive Force. Class Features: Evocation and Eye of the Storm.
Test on Live server:
Test on Preview server:
~~~ Conclusion ~~~
DPS on Live server: 22919 < DPS on Preview server: 12934
That is a huge Drop in DPS of roughly 43.6% !!!
~~~ Conclusion ~~~
DPS on Live server: 22919 < DPS on Preview server: 12934
That is a huge Drop in DPS of roughly 56,4 % !!!
Actually, your DPS dropped 43.6%. In Module 4 you're doing 56.4% of your Module 3 damage. That's right about what my testing showed (not surprising since we have the same spell load-out). But good verification of my tests.
I should elaborate on this. The Shatter effect prevents new stacks of chill from being applied to a target until the stun has worn off, but it leaves existing stacks until the base freeze actually expires. Additionally the effects of your feats, while Cold Infusion does not show a debuff icon (which arguably might be worth changing) are *not* removed. Bitter Cold and Cold Infusion do appropriately get applied with each Chill stack that goes on (including the last one) meaning from the time they get Frozen and the Shatter successfully expires (which on an NPC can vary from 5~8 seconds) you will see close to 100% uptime on Cold Infusion and better than 85% uptime on Bitter Cold.
However there is currently a bug where some cases the original mark that could trigger the stun isn't being purged correctly, which is resulting in the incorrect behavior. That fix will hopefully make it next week sometime.
What about blighting power and chilling presence? Also, enemies are still going to break free from movement speed debuff of chill at the end of stun duration and zerg the CW (This doesn't seem like much of issue in party setting but it's a big deal while solo-ing content.)
Phantasmal destruction could use a time duration increase I think. 40% chance to proc is alright if the duration is good enough. 6 Seconds duration seems really short for this. I could see it being increased to 8 seconds.
As for nightmare wizardry, it's a huge buff compared to what we have on live (3x the duration). It might be a little too good.
As for chaos magic, I just wonder why it's losing its party utility. Any chance to explain that one? I'd love the proposed changes if they were to affect everyone in the party!
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thanat0s666Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 10Arc User
Actually, your DPS dropped 43.6%. In Module 4 you're doing 56.4% of your Module 3 damage. That's right about what my testing showed (not surprising since we have the same spell load-out). But good verification of my tests.
My bad, you're absolutely right mate. I had to subtract the 56.4% from the 100% (from Live server). As you said, it is a -still very big- drop of 43.6% in DPS.
Next I'm going to test single target skills by using my PVP Thauma Profound set and report back in thread.
Comments
Here's an idea for Mark synergy and GFs, double the effect of Mark when the GF has combat advantage. So instead of just 2x threat, now they get 4x threat. This should not just give them better threat control, but also encourage them to work with other people in the party to establish combat advantage to everyone's benefit.
Since threat does nothing in PvP, no one should have any concerns that it would make GFs OP in PvP or something.
I really hope they revert the damage debuff on Magic Missile. I was always under the impression that Chilling Cloud did less damage due to the AoE potential of the 3rd strike. Thus Magic Missile had better single target DPS. For that matter, how does Magic Missile and Ray of Frost compare on preview?
ray is still weak when it comes to damage.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
To start off, this is feedback based on my experiences using a spellstorm oppressor in PVE, not PVP.
The capstone feat, Shatter Strike, currently has an internal cooldown that prevents chill from being reapplied to a target for 10 seconds after that target has been frozen. This change is puzzling to me as it breaks many synergies with the class. These synergies are listed below:
Cold Infusion (Paragon Feat), Bitter Cold (Paragon Feat), and Alacrity (Paragon Feat), trigger when damage is done to a chilled target.
Blighting Power (heroic feat) and Chilling Presence (class feature) do additional damage to targets that are chilled.
Glacial Movement (paragon feat) and Chilling Control (spellstorm paragon feat) apply additional stacks of chill to a target.
All seven of these abilities are rendered useless during the shatter strike cooldown. It seems as though this cooldown was implemented to prevent chain stunning of targets; however, this could be accomplished through an ICD on shattering a target. Honestly, I don't even know why shatter strike needs this component to begin with, as the increased duration of chill and increased damage to control immune monsters are both incredibly useful.
In short, the capstone feat of the oppressor tree isn't even attractive to me anymore. Sure, I gain a five second stun every 10 seconds, but I already get a 4 second stun every 20 seconds from my frost enchanted weapon. Sure, I do additional damage to control immune targets, but I do significantly less damage to everything else because chilling presence, blighting power, and bitter cold have huge gaps when they are not active. To top it all off, the main benefit of chill (and the reason why I play an oppressor on the Live server) is the slowing effect, not the stunning effect. The capstone feat now removes that method of controlling a target due to the quick rate at which targets are shattered (i.e. frozen). The oppressor, who already freezes targets quickly, now does so with extraordinary speed due to the changes to glacial movement and chilling control. This makes the cooldown time when things can't be chilled even more glaring.
Note, this gripe about shatter strike has also been stated in a previous post, but this change is so paradoxical to me, that I've posted my concerns as well.
I should elaborate on this. The Shatter effect prevents new stacks of chill from being applied to a target until the stun has worn off, but it leaves existing stacks until the base freeze actually expires. Additionally the effects of your feats, while Cold Infusion does not show a debuff icon (which arguably might be worth changing) are *not* removed. Bitter Cold and Cold Infusion do appropriately get applied with each Chill stack that goes on (including the last one) meaning from the time they get Frozen and the Shatter successfully expires (which on an NPC can vary from 5~8 seconds) you will see close to 100% uptime on Cold Infusion and better than 85% uptime on Bitter Cold.
However there is currently a bug where some cases the original mark that could trigger the stun isn't being purged correctly, which is resulting in the incorrect behavior. That fix will hopefully make it next week sometime.
I tend to agree with everyone here though, being a Renegade CW, that NW either needs to be reduced time (from 12 seconds to 6 seconds as suggested) or simply just switch NW and PD around, so oppressors and thaum CW's aren't able to get the benefit from NW (which lets face is, is the be all and end all of the Renegade tree at the moment).
No one will spec into PD without also having NW, so it should work perfectly.
While i agree with your top points, if you took combat advantage off NW then the tree would break again. I only say that because the idea is you get NW and PD together to maximize damage. With the new updates to EOTS for SS CWs (I'm a MoF anyway) i think it will even out, or it may even make critical chance viable again as a stat for Renegades. Though as i stated above, i agree that 12 seconds is too long.
My DPS CW can't survive alone even the first wave of enemies in CN, where I know GWFs who can solo waves. CW is the WORST controlling class in PvP and super squishy so why should it be worst class in PvE too? Rogues can stealth or do greatest single target damage (Actually GWFs might some times be able to outperform them), Clerics can heal, GF is super boring but still has great survivability (and paintrain that keep CW on ground until dead on PvP if the GF is skilled enough and gets close of CW) and well built IV GWF is night unstoppable doing great group and single damage and best paintrain to keep CWs on the ground in PvP the few seconds it takes them to squish them. Ranger can spam rooting arrows that also daze for second, have longer range than CW and stealth. What exactly is left to CW if the group damage and best PvE group control is taken out?
Before you start to nerf CW, please consider this:
1) Is CW the most played class? Shouldn't it be if it was so OP? Why still Ranger is the most common class?
2) Is it so bad that there is one class best suited for soloing PvE?
3) If CW is not the future group damage dealer, then who is? Plase don't make GWF, as I would really hate to be forced to play class where main point is to rush forward and hit everything that moves until it doesn't.
4) If you limit CWs ability to control mobs, for example by making Arcane Singularity affect less mobs, then how are people going to survive the epic dungeons? Dread Vault for example can be entered with GS 8300 but last night when we had party mostly a bit over 10k GS, there simply wasn't enough muscle to handle the boss, even though we had my 15k CW, another 10k CW and 17k GWF. When CWs have less control, how does that affect playablity as whole?
5) If CW group damage is too high (CWs are NEVER the damage queens when there are plenty of singular though enemies), is that really because of the setups or because of some item set is too powerful. If item set is too powerfull, wouldn't it just be easier to nerf it instead of complete class? High Vizier is the most used because set it buffs whole group damage and costs plenty. Many CWs think there really is no alternative.
I do agree that most clerics simply suck (although I have seen tank debuffer that that was able to solo kill my CW with ease) and in PvE, GF REALLY needs some reworking because it simply sucks there, but wouldn't is be better to buff them than nerf CW?
I am going to give CW a try regardless what happens, but should it be nerfed enough that I can't anymore survive Icewind Dale with my squishy CW that has 27k HP, I definitely will retire it and my account with it, as I would really hate to have spent all that time to gather resources for my main, only to see it nerfed into oblivion.
Few points:
Arcane Stacks:
These are complete waste of time. CW needs to move if he wishes to stay alive with his squishines and even single blink will reset all stacks. I won't even bother with the stacks anymore as I know I must move after every spell because my damage output means every single enemy will be after me, usually the moment I cast my first Wizard's <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in the beginning of the fight. I don't use even Magic Missile anymore at all because of this, as Ray of Frost is so much faster to cast, slows enemies and seems to proc effects more often.
Shards of Endless Avalanche aka Wizard's <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>:
This is the main damaging spell, but it is buggy as hell. I some time wonder why am I using it because of all the bugs on it, but the reason is that there really is no alternative. It gets randomly stuck on ground and it might be pushable if you go a bit backwards, which will still delay it for 2 seconds or so and you have no second try if you miss as the explosion counting has started. It has tendency to appear slightly on side of center, usually left, especially if there is any lag, which will cause it to miss the targets. It has also tendency to appear on top of you if you are close to wall, making pushing it impossible. It won't explode if Singularity has been cast, as Singularity seems to make mobs transparent for this spell. If you are stunned or controlled when cast, it will disappear. It takes ages to cast, which means many times enemies have simply moved out of its way or some GWF/GF has pushed mobs out of its way. The controlling spects of this spell are negligible, as the enemies will be on feet in about second, which is much less than with any spell. This spell is completely unusable in pvp because of all of this and as it is easy to dodge and thus I enjoy every timer I see enemy CW using it. Should it be nerfed, it will be quite much rubbish, how already many CWs seem to see it already.
Please fix the bugs and change it so that by pressing the push button, it will be pushed in the direction the CW is facing (If CW faces 30 decrees east from north, the ball will be pushed into direction 30 decrees east from north from the spot it stands), regardless of is the CW close to it or not. This will atleast remove the impossibility to push when it appears too close to walls.
Steal Time:
This spell is just about the best CW has. It does decent damage, even if much less than SoEA and actually has a decent timed stun effect and in addition slows the enemies during casting. Bad things are that it is slow to cast, which means enemy hordes have much time to land punches on you and even worse, you must be in middle of them to effectively cat this spell. Here less damage means that CW don't have enough damage output to survive many encounters and even worse, it becomes useless if it takes longer to cast or lasts less time. This really is no pvp spell, as you are dead or interrupted long time before you have cast this, as in PvP CW so close to enemies to be able to cast this is already dead. Only when there are plenty of TRs, this can be used to root them out of stealth, but the long time means that any TR worth his salt is long gone before this blasts out or has just killed you with his daily.
Chill Strike aka Iceball:
This is mostly a **** spell. It was great when I got it, but at level 60, I use it only because I don't have any other fourth group damage spell and it does a bit more damage to groups. Trade off is it must be put on spell mastery, which would be better used for other spells. It is weak spell in PvP as it is really slow to cast, but has some use if you happen to be loooooooooooong way away from the enemies, like in pillar. Damage is well enough to usually kill the weakest mobs like imps on groups, but you can't count on that and is negligible with stronger foes.
Icy Rays:
Best Single target damage spell CW has, as it roots and does quite good damage. Nerf this one and PvP will be even more hell than it already is and you just killed the only decent single target spell CW had. Quite fast to cast if you can tap fast enough, but has tendency to spread among enemies if cast on close group, which means no rooting and damage is decimated. Also good GWFs seem to be unaffected with the spell, damage being negligible and no root at all.
Entangling Force:
**** spell. Does poor damage and does no damage to most bosses and elite mobs like giants. This is usable in pvp because it buys you some time against clerics and CWs, which are the only targets that you can hope to kill if you don't have much larger GS, perfect position with someone else keeping the enemy occupied or the enemy skills or build simply sucks. The casting time is simply too long to even try to cast against GWF (and they are usually immune to it anyways) or GF charging you from near distance. Also GF shield blocks it. Can't be cast on stealth rogues and even if they are out of stealth, if they are able to stealth when you are about to cast it, it fails. Also dodging fails it, even if the person dodged just prior to casting. Usable only if you cast on unaware person or root them before. Also ranger spamming root arrows can spam faster than you can cast it, meaning unless he does a mistake, you aren't gripping him. Any longer casting time will surely kill this spell and the damage is already so negligible to ONE person that I wouldn't notice if it were completely gone (although it is small joy to see slight damage when the spell bounces off from enemy).
Conduit of Ice:
This one is good for both PvE and PvP. Does decent damage, but in PvE as it doesn't control at all and does it during a long time, it is a trade off. I mostly use it for the mitigation bonus to get my other spells to hit harder, to upkeep frost stacks or to replenish my AP when there is huge enemy group when weakening the enemies. In pvp I use it to keep that TR slightly longer out of stealth, get him off from stealth by casting this on the shadow he just cast, finish almost dead fleeing TR with the DoT when I aren't fast enough to follow. This is one of the actually usefull spells, but I am certainly not sure how it could be nerfed without making it useless at the same time. If the damage is made less, it should replenish AP faster to keep AP gain comparable. If it affects less mobs, same thing.
Repel:
The damage here is negligible and nobody uses it for damage. It is usable only in certain dungeons where it makes life so much easier when you can cast mobs off the cliff. Also usable in PvP to keep enemies at bay, although the weak damage makes your life really hard in PvP when you could have it replaced with damaging spell and when you are in good position where you should be, it just kicks enemies out of your range and thus can't be used. I almost never use it, except in those very specific dungeons. So weak spell that nering it would be pointless.
Shield:
Another weak spell. Usable in some instances, but generally used only for the push effect. Some actually use it for damage with Arcane Singularity. I really never use it.
Icy Terrain:
Got this only so recently that I really can't say much about this. I haven't bothered to test it much as the damage is so ridiculously low, but I guess the control effect is worth something for someone as some CWs seem to use it. Nerf it and I will even less bother to test it. Not my loss.
Sudden Storm:
This spell has one of the best damages for any encounter spells and also shortest recharge from any encounter I know. Personally I don't use it and here is why: It needs double tap to cast, even when it should be cast on the CW facing with one push. It doesn't seem to crit, which eats damage and won't work well with Eye of the Storm. It has ridiculously low range, which doesn't bother if you use it in conjunction with Steal Time but does bother at the start of combat and even more in PvP. No control effect at all, meaning if you didn't kill that enemy, you just got hit which is a bad thing. The range and lack of any control are the reasons I personally prefer Iceball instead of this, but it is quite popular among many CWs. Only good in PvP if there are plenty of stealth TRs you need to try to root out from short range, but even then success is marginal. Nerf the damage and you just made the spell useless. Please remove the need for second tap to cast it as it really should be cast with one click on the direction CW is facing.
Ray of Enfeeblement:
Here the damage is not bad, which is actually second best from CW single target spells. Also the casting time is fast enough that you are actually able to cast that as last ditch for the charging berserker coming to slaughter you and slightly help your allies even when you are dead. The damage is not the main point, but the mitigation. If you are about to nerf the mitigation, you are making this useless. CW isn't even the third best single target damage dealer, so single target damage can't be the problem and here the mitigation is used to give your allied fighters an edge against strong foes. Be very careful here or the CW will be soon completely useless against giants, PvP enemies and bosses. I use this one in PvP and in boss fights or when I hunt giants or Remorhaz'.
Maelstrom of Chaos:
Not very damaging spell and thus rarely used. Only use I have been able to find for it is to throw fighters back in Icewind PvP, as it shields you from their controlling effects during casting and seems to actually work on them. Gives you little time to flee. It has its uses but is basically so weak that nobody rarely uses it.
Arcane Singularity:
Excellent Spell in PvE. Does decent damage, not good but decent and keeps MOST of the enemies at bay for some time, although if they can jump that won't stop usually them form damaging you but gives time to prepare your other spells. Also the main use is to gather enemies into one bunch to cast your Wizard <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> or help the fighters to bash the enemies in one pile. If you are to nerf this one, BE VERY VERY CAREFUL! Without this spell, many of the boss fights will become much harder and impossible without even larger gear score in the party. Useless in PvP, as everyone but the dumbest GF can dodge it with ease and takes so long to cast that you can basically take a nap in between and you are basically asking it to be interrupted.
Ice Knife:
Very useful spell and hasn't left my daily slot since I got it. It is also single target spell, the only single target daily CW has. Does good damage for bosses, but control effects in PvP or boss fights are negligible. Nerf damage and it will be easily useless, nerfing control effects can be hard when there is nothing to nerf. Only versus other mages and clerics seem the control kick in, which helps in PvP.
Oppressive Force:
The only group damaging spell that actually does some noticeable group damage CW has, but the main use comes from elsewhere. Main use is to slow enemies and get Combat Advantage bonus for you and group when the spell is active to increase your damage. Is fast to cast in PvE, but annoyingly slow to cast in PvP, as GWFs have annoying habit of interrupting it when casting, which spoils the spell and depletes your AP and as it must be cast in the middle of group, you many times are dead before you can even start to cast it. Still the only half decent daily spell for PvP.
Ice Storm:
Useless in dungeons and skirmishes and I HATE every CW who uses it, as I have seen just too often that I use Singularity to finish some group off with Wizard's <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> just to see another weakling CW to disperse the group with IS afterwards when he thinks he can steal the kills or do more damage or something and then I can't finish the group fast when they are dispersed. This would be the second most useful daily spell in PvP. It might be the best if it wasn't even easier to interrupt by GWFs than Oppressive Force and OF gives small damage increase for party also. For me it is **** spell so if you want to nerf it, go ahead and make life even worse for noobs.
Furious Immolation:
This is the spell I am jealous of to Master of Flame path CWs. It is like Arcane Singularity without all the negative sides and actually does some damage too. It is fast to cast and gathers enemies faster than Singularity, which makes it really good for PvP and PvE. Sadly MoF path does much less DPS in general than Spellstorm, so I and most other CWs simply skip it. I would be very careful here too to not take out the reason the other path CWs even exists at all. Other than that, can't say much about the MoF.
Only at wills the Spellstorm CW has that are basically usefull are Ray of Frost and Magic Missile. The others are used just for buffs or secondary effects. If you take damage from MM, you are basically making it useless too, as it is simply used for the best DPS from them all and maybe for the paragon path final power of Renegade Ray of Frost gives some control and the others are basically toys what I have been testing them, but MM you usually use for extra DPS when you can't cast encounters, but the real damage always comes from encounter uses so if you want to make MM useless, please do so.
I am personally having even now hard time in many dungeons with the mobs, like the epic Dread Vault when there are only CWs and GWFs and even more without GWF. My damage output makes the Illithids come after me or just the fact that I am closest, but they aren't fast enough to kill when the GWF is DPSing the boss. Soon there are just too many after me and I simply don't have time to cast even the control spells before they have stunned me if I even try and all time goes simply to moving around. Take any control out and this will become even worse, take damage out and this situation will build up even faster, so please be very careful if nerf CW, sa frankly I'm not sure which class would take over control or group DPS from them and IMO GWF is much more in need of some adjustment than CW. CW after all is already dead waste on PvP and Cockatrices, Spheres of black Ice and Sigils of Rogue have made this even worse.
Here were my two cents.
So, does this mean that the CW is intended to be able to compete with pure DPS classes (TR, HR, GWF) on damage? If a class that, regardless of build, has the best control (as well as some of the best debuffs) in the game can also deal top damage, then how do you see the value of pure damage classes with little to no utility measure up to the controller in PVE?
PS: I apologize for the non-feedback post here - i simply wanted to address the post from Gentleman Crush in this thread directly, and would ask anyone other then the person quoted to not reply to this post in order to avoid further pollution of the thread.
I agree with every point of your post, up to the detail. You showed exactly the current situation.
For example, entangle needs a buff for pvp... currently my casting time is longer than certain GWFs (without using unstoppable) are rooted in it. An increase in casting times without compensation which takes into account the squishieness of our class is just a horrible idea. And the AP nerf was also way over the top which was required. Why meeles have ranged instant CCs while the 'controller' class has long casting times? Something is rotten here.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Except your question is directed at opinions that Crush never stated. No where did Crush say that the class is intended to compete with pure DPS classes "regardless of build", that's an assumption you've lept to on your own.
What Crush stated was that they wanted the class to feel viable as DPS when "specced into Thaumatuge". He did not say viable DPS while as Opressor or Renegade. He next mentions that the Renegade line should focus on group utility.
You could read this as Crush having implied what the devs feel the that the two different roles of the two different spec trees should be; Thaum= DPS, Reneg= Support/Utility. Instead, you somehow combine those separate options into an interpretation that would mean the class would be able to concurrently master all the trees to achieve the "best control" and "top dps" at the same time.
No. He expressed his opinion and i agree on the PVE part, but to be honest for PVP almost everything he said is completely not true.
-He said that shard is unviable in pvp and he's happy when the enemy cw is using it..
-He said that entangling force is ****.
-He said that chill strike is **** and that you are forced to be faaaaaaaaaaar far from the opponent for it to be decent..
-27k hp..
Do i really have to add anything??
I respect everyone's feedback or opinion, but please don't say that what he said reflect the current state of cw in pvp because i bet the comments on those essential encounters are hilarious to every single pvp cw in this thread.
You misunderstood me a bit there - i said it was the best CONTROLLER regardless of build. Meaning, even with a pure dps build, no other class can compete with CW-s control. If a pure dps cw build would loose 90% of the control and debuffs, that would be perfectly fine (and i mean that as in a build, not simply swapping out some powers any time you like). At the moment, a cw with ANY build beats other classes in utility, only a dc who is pure utility can compete on that.
Wow , thanks so much for listening to the feedback , this definitely makes the class more viable as a ranged dps class , can't wait till it gets patched in so I can try out the changes and see what the class is like.
True, which is why I said i was talking about PVE. I do agree that cw needs a buff in PVP, and the most obvious way to do that would be to buff single target damage and defenses (which work best in PVP) while lowering AOE dps (which works best in PVE).
Now, the following is purely about PVE:
If MOST of CW-s control came from a specific tree, that would loose MOST of the damage that would be great. Either DPS or control, but not both. Currently, the CW with a dps build can achieve top dps while loosing very little control compared to the other classes. Consider the utility value of any other DPS class in PVE against that of a full DPS CW. If the DPS cw build lost majority of their control ability, that would make them equal to other DPS classes or "balanced" as far as utility+dps goes.
Oh, yes I may have missed this: Shard is indeed extremely useful in pvp in its current state (especially on tab) although it is tedious if you are chased by a gwf/gf - only if you can sit in the back and have time to cast it. Chill Strike is currently 'lala' in pvp imo... I find it too slow there and not so usefull.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Thanks, this changes have much more sense to me, who wants big damage from shard must "specialize", and now seems that Thauma will be viable in Pvp as damage dealers with that icy rays buff, and I can see the 3 paths viable (control, personal dps, party buffer)
But I see renegade a less usefull than others in current state, if renegade will be focused in team, can I suggest a change in phantasmal destruction to be more team oriented?
Now: Phantasmal Destruction: When you deal Combat Advantage damage you have a 25% chance (down from 100%) to grant 3/6/9/12/15% Critical Severity for 6 seconds.
Suggested: Phantasmal Destruction: When you deal Combat Advantage damage you have a 25% chance (down from 100%) to grant you and allies 3/6/9/12/15% Critical Severity for 6 seconds.
If 3/6/9/12/15% is too much, 4/6/8/10/12% can be good too
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Agreed!
I suggested this a few pages back. I think this would be a nice upgrade to the Renegade tree, making it a more compelling choice.
I don't use High Viziers set, thus there are many Thauma, GWFs, some HRs and TRs that are able to outdps me. I saw no point in nerfing this tree to uselessness and I'm glad Devs listened. Maybe adjusting HV set would do better then destroying feats.
I'm only worried about Renegade CW state in PvP. New shard might make up for loss of damage, but crippling single target skills that already were weak seams not logical, since CW is everything but the strongest class in PvP.
Again: curious to test it once changes are implemented.
This was 5 minutes on the test dummy in Caer-Konig using Icy Rays on tab, Ray of Enfeeblement, Conduit of Ice, Chill Strike, Ice Knife, Chilling presence, and eye of the storm. I had a perfect vorpal weapon enchantment and I waited to use Ice Knife for when Eye of the Storm activated so I got 100% crits with it. I tried to alternate Magic Missile and Storm Pillar.
I ended up with about 7k DPS.
For the sake of comparison, I have a 12k TR with mismatched gear, an off-hand black ice dagger as a main hand weapon (not corrupted or purified, just the one you buy from the vendor), no weapon enchantment, 4k power, only a DC as a companion (no stat-boosting ioun stone) and he does 6.6k DPS on a single target. I totally get TR's SHOULD be better at single target damage than CW's. But when a badly, badly undergeared TR can do the same single target damage as a fully decked out CW it gives you an idea of what CW's are up against in PvP where they will face TR's, GWF's and HR's who can do easily double or triple the damage of my sorry TR on a single target.
Edit: also this same test yielded 11,378 DPS on the live server. So single target sustained damage has been nerfed by 38%. That's a painful drop considering CW's were rather poor at single-target damage to begin with.
Nice changes
Is there any chance that the shield be reworked to make it a viable option ?
Or a little more ability to teleport ?
Or the stamina that regenerates a little faster ? A rework of Lightning teleport (tier 3 heroic feat) will be great because we will no longer kill anyone so easily (this is even more true in pvp). Scourge Warlock has an heroic feat (tier 2) like this.
Or even a little more armor CA ?
Something that allows us to not die too fast ?
Again sorry for my english... i promise i'm learning !
Remove the Arcane Mastery and replace Master Control. By giving critical hit in control abilities, the effect is different or stronger.
Tested at Dread Ring dummies for about 5 mins long using my regular Skills Rotation: Conduit of Ice (Tab) > Steal Time > Sudden Storm > Shard. At Will: Chilling Cloud whenever encounters were on cooldown and Daily: Oppressive Force. Class Features: Evocation and Eye of the Storm.
Test on Live server:
Test on Preview server:
~~~ Conclusion ~~~
DPS on Live server: 22919 < DPS on Preview server: 12934
That is a huge Drop in DPS of roughly 43.6% !!!
Actually, your DPS dropped 43.6%. In Module 4 you're doing 56.4% of your Module 3 damage. That's right about what my testing showed (not surprising since we have the same spell load-out). But good verification of my tests.
Sounds interesting. Would be nice since we are control.
What about blighting power and chilling presence? Also, enemies are still going to break free from movement speed debuff of chill at the end of stun duration and zerg the CW (This doesn't seem like much of issue in party setting but it's a big deal while solo-ing content.)
As for nightmare wizardry, it's a huge buff compared to what we have on live (3x the duration). It might be a little too good.
As for chaos magic, I just wonder why it's losing its party utility. Any chance to explain that one? I'd love the proposed changes if they were to affect everyone in the party!
My bad, you're absolutely right mate. I had to subtract the 56.4% from the 100% (from Live server). As you said, it is a -still very big- drop of 43.6% in DPS.
Next I'm going to test single target skills by using my PVP Thauma Profound set and report back in thread.