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M18 - Rewards
joebot
Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 15Cryptic Developer › Cryptic Developer
Feedback: Rewards
Greetings adventurers, this thread is for providing bug reports and feedback on the new M18 Rewards. Some of the major updates include:- New dungeon gear
- New Artifact Equipment Set
- Rare Equipment rewards
- New Seal and an updated Seal store
- And more!
Thank you for taking the time to play on preview and provide feedback, see you in Infernal Descent!
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Formatting Your Feedback and Bugs
For posting feedback and bugs, please follow the following format to ensure your feedback and bugs are seen clearly and processed in a timely manner, thank you!Type: Bug/Feedback (Please only choose one)
If you are listing a bug please have this text in RED, if you are posting an opinion or feedback please use CYAN. If you are replying to another user's post, asking a question, or just engaging in general discussion, please do not color your posts, general discussion is welcome and we will read all of it, regardless of color! You can use BBCode to color your text:
<font color=cyan>This text will display in cyan.</font>
<font color=red>This text will display in red.</font>Examples:
Bug: The Call of Evil set bonus increases my damage against ambient spawn devils in the adventure zone but not against devils spawning in the heroic encounter.
Feedback: When activating the artifact, it is unclear which buff is active.
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Equip bonus's on gear that give base stats, for example +1000 power or +1000 defence are very undesirable for any experienced player and will just keep repeating the cycle of players using gear well past its sell by date, solely because the bonus is good, even if it provides less base stats and item level.
any bonus that gives X amount of base stats should be changed to provide something else, something that gives 1000 power, change it to 1% bonus damage, or 1% outgoing healing, 1000 defence, change to 1% damage resistance. this will make newer items much more attractive to players since these stats are independent to base stats and wont be wasted.
Make some more unique items aimed at healers and tanks. Most of the new items are very generic.
Bring back set bonus's on dungeon sets or class specific buffs that can make gear choices more interesting and gathering a full set of gear an option. Doesn't have to be dramatic, something like the tales of old artefact set for each additional one you use. Most of the gear is already divided into class specific drops, such as the successor gear.
something like for a cleric and paladin
2/4 pieces = 2% damage resistance
3/4pieces = 2% damage/ outgoing healing
4/4 pieces = 10% divinity Regeneration
Warlock
2/4 = 2% damage resistance
3/4 = 2% damage/ outgoing healing
4/4 = critical hits generate 2 action points
Rogue
2/4 = 2% damage resistance
3/4 = 2% damage
4/4 = at will attacks refill 1% stealth meter
I don't know enough to think of small enough but still meaningful little buffs that would make full sets more desirable for every class
refining a set only for the new dungeon is a bad idea
- Leveling - seals of adventurer
- Epic dungeons and end game farm up to Undermountain – seals of the deep or better seals of fallen
- New content – new seals
Having too much seals just complicates game without need. Please ensure that there no more than 3 seal generation produced by content at the same time including seals of adventurer.
tl;dr version: Nothing really worth getting, this mod will only be interesting for the single week the dungeon opens.
For my CW, I will get the pants doing the dungeon, get a shoe and the mod is ended for me. The dungeon only worth doing while people think the artifact set worth getting, but after that, 4 month of getting back to lomm.
A general gear advice, maybe nerf the Ebonized armor to 5 stack as it seems almost impossible to compete with that effect. Or at least does not worth doing so.
Weapon set: Still does not exists, which means the new dungeon is less desireable.
Artifact set: The Demon lords set pretty much averages it's bonus, but actually can be used at the next difficulty level, in tomm. This set is only good to scam people who think the new dungeon is harder than tomm because it has a higher IL. So I disagree with the set bonus on multiple levels. Maybe switch the enemy ratings for the 2 content?
The artifact itself: I don't get why it has to be randomly decided, we already have great options for fixed DR and you don't even need to use at-wills 6 times to achieve it.
Equipment in general: Please make multiple statted versions. Even for the monster rewards. And the bonus system needs to redevelop as all this gear only makes a 2 DPS build that gets copied for every class and even there, only the melee and ranged bonuses are the ones making the difference. Get some set bonuses, get some actual diversity of options, not just a few good and "everything else bad".
Dungeon armor: Static power bonuses are already underpowered to percentile. The only reliable use for them is HP for the tanks and this is it, absolutely useless. I think that set bonuses should come back as the 5% against demon set bonus probably should be on these as it's probably gets discarded in a mod.
Seal equipment rewards: So, kind of the same issue here, just they are not the highest HP givers. The only mentionable gear is the pants, not because they are good, but because they are just as bad as most other, only a slight stat increase.
Rare equipment rewards: I remembered more item before, but maybe my bad. So, I probably will take the 3% shoe from here, but otherwise, it's a waste of time. However, I'm okay with that, because the hunt/monster gears already taking over the "should be" gear rewards from the game.
And I say again here, respeccing for gearing up a single piece of armor is annoying and for newer players probably costs a lot without reason.
Edit: More specific and easy suggestions will come in a later post.
For my current Fighter Vanguard setup, four of the 13 zone drops are absolutely best in slot (head,chest,hands and boots). The stat rolls/equip bonuses will lift my Fighter from being a fun experiment to being 100% ready for TOMM.
What may be "useless" for your CW can be incredibly strong for other classes.
> refining a set only for the new dungeon is a bad idea
Guessing we will see more of Avernus, and the set will be good for mid-levels farming Hell Pit for legendary mount.
I do agree the set is not what one would expect from the latest dungeon (in the same mod that Orcus set gets nerfed). Maybe the dungeon set should be made a rare zone drop, and a new and improved DPS set take it's spot in dungeon?
Their strength need to be greater, but conditional. Old gears are either effectively unconditional (proc upon attack to give bonus attack) or just catering to a style you already decided on. Or just don't get used because they give the same amount or even less than something else, but require more.
Notable exception is the 5% damage -50% incoming heal boots. If it were like 10% damage I probably try to build around it with extra incoming heal companions and Tactical enchantment in utility slots. Maybe the vast amount of heal from the DC would be greater appreciated.
Edit: Maybe for better segmentation, make 4 piece of gear with 5% damage, but -15% incoming heal, so there will be more flexible choices. If you add up, it can show as 20% damage, but you need to give up 3 additional beneficial effect, which is somewhere at 2-3% per each, rounding down to the original single piece of gear.
Maybe release a gear where your critical severity is reduced to 0, but you gain +20% damage. Pair it with a gear where your CA is cap is increased to 130%, but you lose 30.000 CA for it and you get a non-crit build that channels their crit stat into CA. Might only work effectively for 1-2 class, but even the theoretical cap on that power is contained with the general stat balance.
I did not math out the exact effects to be balanced (the CA gear potentially destroys lower counterstatted content, however this can be resolved by the downscaling and only affects non-scaled not top-end content, as everything else is probably counted on by this).
Thank everyone for your feedback so far! We are continuing to comb through your suggestions and bugs, so please keep them coming. This is definitely in our crosshairs. Ultimately, the goal was something similar to what you might see in other games where, for instance, an item may have strong raw numbers but have a negative critical chance. The negative could then be overcome by building critical chance elsewhere. Admittedly, this could be done better so we will continue to monitor and make adjustments.
Thanks again!
To pinpoint my problem more accurately, the new rare equipment is conditional, which is a good step, but the conditions are either crippling or include additional tradeoff.
To go with the example above, you can't really live with -50% incoming heal. That's a death certificate. But let's say that I have no alternative option (which is almost true), only marginal effects. I can try to offset 30% incoming heal by spending 10 million AD on Tactical enchantments and get only -20% incoming healing for my +5% damage. That sounds fair, until I account literally anything else I could've spent my 10 million to progress my character and that I lost 30% companion influence to get it. And I'm still have to face it's disadvantage.
While this calculation kind of reasoned me that a 5% for -15% incoming heal is a little too easy to achieve, I think a 4% damage bonus for -25% incoming heal is just less hostile and maybe can work. However, for a test server it's better to make it overpowered with the intention of getting nerfed to live unless it's seems fair enough. People would be more interested to test and build out options.
The other new shoe is -20% of your HP for +3% damage. Which is already obsolete for classes who can just use the 3% melee bonus and lose a little Power (but gain more net HP), but get a more reasonable trade-off. However, it's not even the full effect, because it only applies if you critted, which makes it feel way worse than it should be.
There is the +5000 Power if your AP is full, which is not useful for me, but I like it. Unsure if there's a build for it, but there could be if we would get more support for this style. And you have more control over it as you can use your daily or not during the battle, it's not predetermined that I cannot do that if I want that power.
And there's the one which gives you 300 Power per enemy monster, which is not bad, but in average not that significant. It's fine.
However, if there will be changes in the gear apartment, when they will go into preview?
Edit2020: Some grammar and clarification.
Having said that after spending about an hour in preview last night, I gotta say the rewards for this mod are very lackluster, and having a timegated campaign like all previous ones except EE, and mod 16, with repeatable quests and a weekly haul really doesn't make me all that excited for mod 18. The timegating, and weekly haul make me feel like the devs are trying to drag out how long it takes us to finish the campaign, because they couldn't come up with enough story to avoid repeatable quests. Mod 16 was, IMHO, the best campaign I've played yet. Yes, I feel the story was I bit light even though it cold be done in 8hrs or less, but I loved that I didn't repeat anything to finish the mod. Ok the expeditions between stages could've been better, but it didn't feel too repetitive until I started doing 3 mes per day... Mod 17 was almost as bad as AI campaign.
It would be really nice to have bonuses related to class abilities and powers, giving you something that you can build around.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
The current system straightjackets not by overall design, but by individual decisions. Most feats are balanced to give a certain amount of damage, not to build around it. Notable exceptions can be found, but they also got nerfed when gained significance, thus gave too much damage. At least on CW.
I think that more significant feats that promote a certain style while by excluding the other feat option can make just as much class identity and build options as it was before, while being just as easy to balance out.
Also I think that the problem is not that a class has a few options, if those options are fun and interesting, but as you said, the options are almost the same regardless of class.
Back to the gear, I agree to a degree. I think that gear could be more class and stylespecific and it could even lead to groups farming the same boss in effort to get a different gear, not needing for the exact same item. I would also mean that players will feel more rewarded even though if the grind for their piece is kind of the same.
However, I don't like the idea of buffing an individual power. Passives maybe, but I feel if a gear is locked to a class encounter or at-will, that might have a lock-on effect for the entire class. But, to contradict myself, I don't think that they shouldn't be, because if very little bonuses have to exist, I would more prefer something specific than pure extra power.
One of the more ridiculous, but considerable ideas from me:
Let the dungeon be unlocked in a few weeks, but during the midtime of the mod just throw a ton of new rare monster gear in (prestested, not OP, of course, just exciting new options) to make people try new builds an options while waiting for the next mod. You can adjust the top content difficulty of course, but just let people be excited to play and craft even if there is no real new mod. Most people I play with wants to spend time in the game, but finds themselves lacking in things to do even though they would spend/grind for it.
Weapon set from boss drop or seal would be a nice idea. Even if Lionheart is supposed to remain BiS perhaps have a set with the same stats but different set bonus like no stamina requirements (good for tanks so tanks have a reason to run this dungeon)
It will also split players into 2 groups one that got the stronger weapon set and one that don't (at least if the "ToMM is for 1% of players" still holds true) with no way of getting stronger by playing the new dungeon or campaign.
Running an easy skirmish because of same (or better) rewards simply because it only takes 12 minutes instead of 24 is like CoDG or eDemo again. I don't like it and I don't think it great for the game since most people will gravitate towards the new content.
Artifact set bonus: Great idea in my opinion to make a set mostly tied to the new mod, no set bonus outside of demons of such on the other hand makes it entirely useless in most areas. Even Barovia weapon set (which no one ever used) has a bonus outside of Barovia if I remember correctly. Maybe a split buff like 2.5% flat and another 2.5% against demons and such would make it more desirable.
Tl;dr desirebility of gear seems to be extremely niche, higher stats on gear which is only partially useful, and the set which only works against demons and such. Based on rewards I can't see myself playing this dungeons or the campaign for more then a few weeks and that's accounting for the fact that for my main character all of the high stat gear might be BiS or at least a very viable option.
> @joebot#9387 Thanks for the answer!
>
> To pinpoint my problem more accurately, the new rare equipment is conditional, which is a good step, but the conditions are either crippling or include additional tradeoff.
>
> To go with the example above, you can't really live with -50% incoming heal. That's a death certificate. But let's say that I have no alternative option (which is almost true), only marginal effects. I can try to offset 30% incoming heal by spending 10 million AD on Tactical enchantments and get only -20% incoming healing for my 5% damage. That sounds fair, until I account literally anything else I could've spent my 10 million to progress my character and that I lost 30% companion influence to get it. And I'm still have to face it's disadvantage.
>
> While this calculation kind of reasoned me that a 5% for -15% is a little too easy to achieve, I think a 4% damage bonus for -25% incoming heal is just less hostile and maybe can. However, for a test server it's better to make it overpowered with the intention of getting nerfed to live if it seems to be a problem. People would be more interested to test and build out options.
>
> The other new shoe is -20% of your HP for 3% damage. Which is already obsolete for classes who can just use the 3% melee bonus and lose some HP and Power, but get a more reasonable trade-off. However, it's not even the full effect, because it only applies if you critted, which makes it feel way worse than it should be.
>
> There is the +5000 Power if your AP is full, which is not useful for me, but I like it. Unsure if there's a build for it, but there could be if we would get more support for this style. And you have more control over it as you can use your daily or not during the battle, it's not predetermined that I cannot do that if I want that power.
>
> And there's the one which gives you 300 Power per enemy monster, which is not bad, but in average not that significant. It's fine.
>
> However, if there will be changes in the gear apartment, when they will go into preview?
Both of the items you give positive feedback (+pwr if AP full and +pwr per mob in combat), I will be using for my Vanguard owlbear build. It is extremely niche, and not everyone will find a use for these items.
I agree 100% with your observations on the +% dmg gear. Imho items should only give +stat, +magnitude to spesific skill,+effect to spesific skill or any current equip bonus not including +% dmg (negative effects in combination for balancing welcome) but NEVER +% damage dealt.
There is only a few weeks left before the launch of Mod18 and no one is really that excited for it because the dungeon is hard and the set sucks.. There have been multiple suggestions about a new set bonus to the "Call to Power" set in testing and here, that beats Demo in terms of dps. I know that "for reasons" it was decided not to change it earlier.. I think that was the wrong decision. Please reconsider. Same as the Halaster set...It will not be used in anyway... I for one would like to be able to have something new to go after.
Mod 14 has a beautiful campaign area complete with day and night cycle and hunts you can do in groups to get new gear, it was perfect for new Level 70s at that time.
I still suggest to change Call of Evil artifact set bonus to provide something like 3.0% damage bonus against all enemies plus 2.0% against demons, devils and fiends. It makes it viable compared to other sets (Demon Lord 4% on average but lower stats, some other stats up to 5% while moving / standing still) but far from clearly BIS like Demon Lord once was. Something like 3.0% + 2.0% against demons makes it as bis as it's intented in Citadel dungeon (probably bis in that dungeon nevertheless except if you can make good use of the sets that activate on daily use) and quite decent in general, especially after the Demon Lord adjustments.
Obviously beating Demo wasn't a great idea while Demo was still up to 20% (or around 8% on average)
As you said maybe it was the wrong decision back then. Maybe it was the right decision (to not make it universally better then the odd 5% sets) . But things obviously change and hopefully at some point improve.
Since there are no new weapons unless I'm missing something and Lionheart is supposed to remain BIS for quite some time I'd also suggest to simply make Lionheart weapons drop from final boss in Citadel. There's literally no way to get stronger from running Citadel. Lionheart drop would at least be a desirable reward for people who don't farm the trial, which according to some sources is 99% of the playerbase.
Add a gameplay rewards loop and Mod 18 can still be a success.
If Mod 19 stays in Avernus I think it's even more important to set the pace so to speak and make Mod 18 a success.
1, It's unfairly better at targeting that type. Well, this means a must-run artifact set that restricts future boss designs as Demons/Devil/Fiend type bosses, but more importantly, it gets into nonsense territory, because it's instantly obsolete the second you get it.
If this set is the reward from the dungeon and the only reason to run the dungeon is the set, then why should I try for it? If I can do the dungeon (thus, obtained the set) that's a proof that I don't need the set to do it in the only content that it matters.
Or, I go further, if the mod19 dungeon/trial is the true thing where this set shines and that has the big rewards, do I want to get them? Like, seriously, if I ran through the mod19 dungeon/trial, I'm theoretically done with every challenge, so I don't need that reward for anything that I could be doing anyway.
And if I might be using the gear from mod19 in mod20, but I'm at like 3 "if" and madness stack already. I don't want to convolute my way into mod20 on a predetermined railway or if I can just avoid crafting it by progressing my character other ways, I probably do that, because I can carry that progression over to mod20, while the devilslayer set just goes into the trash instantly.
I know that you can sell the reward from the dungeon for those who then will be able to do it and sell theirs, which is an unnecessary pyramid scam. I will do it, of couse, but I would like to run the content for stuff I want. Because 1 dungeon for 4 month will get boring to do for it's own merit.
2, It's just as good as other sets or worse. Okay, but why does it exist? Or more importantly, why only this set exists in the entire mod? Like, it can be justified by "why not", but when the playerbase failing to find motivation between mods, maybe make something more desireable.
So, in summary, I fail to see why this set should be tweaked or tried to be balanced out. It's mostly in vain or if there's a huge importance to it, it mostly for the worse. And there's a few dozen of artifact sets and effects that people would like to be reintroduced in higher tiers for not that much of an objective benefit.
Thanks again for all the feedback and bugs! We continue to read your posts and consider all suggestions.
The feedback we have thus far taken action on and hope to get to you soon in a build:
- Call of Evil from the Dark Remnant artifact set will now increase damage dealt by 2.5% against all targets. Damage dealt is increased by an additional 2.5% against demons, devils, and fiends.
- Gluttonous Might from the Rusted Iron Leggings had the penalty reduced from -50% incoming healing bonus to -25% incoming healing bonus.
Additionally, we are adding rare, exclusive items to the Infernal Citadel dungeon chest in the form of transmutes for costume appearances no longer available in the game. These items include:- Armor of Insanity - Chest armor representing a plaguechanged maw.
- Retired promotional class items will also have a chance of dropping from the chest:
- Controller's Arcanist Orb
- Cleric's Exalted Symbol
- Great Weapon's Goring Greatsword
- Fated Pact Blade
- Guardian's Wyvern Sword and Shield
- Paladin's Blessed Mace and Shield
- Bow and Hatchets of the Wild
- Trickster's Flurry and Parry Daggers
As always, we are thankful for your continued feedback and bug reports.