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  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User
    edited January 2020

    You are trying to argue a slippery slope here, when in reality you cannot show that the existence of these boots will lead to one.

    I'd prefer to say that I'm trying to speculate, which is not the same as making slippery slope arguments. I think it's quite reasonable to propose that there will be a shifted preference towards healers that can drastically over-heal if optimal DPS now requires overhealing. And I think it not only reasonable but empirical to observe that this would affect healer balance (in the same way ToMM changed healer balance to favour Paladin overshields, as you must surely well know.) The narrative version I gave was was little slippery-slope fantastical, I'll grant you, but it's no more irrational than us discussing this particular item, at this particular number, somehow being the golden standard for risk-reward itemisation---especially when nobody, actually, in this thread is contesting that such mechanics might be an excellent feature in the game going forward.

    We could reverse the trend and ask instead: at what point is a penalty too harsh? Is "viable" really just a shorthand for "can be done", or should we make the term do a little more work than that---more subtlety, as I was suggesting earlier? Because I think, frankly, you are treating these boots as a cleverer device than they really are. The idea of risk-reward is promising: let's do it. This one specific sore-thumb item that is impossible to measure against any other, because it's the only meaningful member of its kind, and because its number is so extreme as to defy comparison or balancing: the community ought be expected to question and debate it.
    There is not a single person in this thread saying it is the golden standard for risk vs reward. Nobody. Please read my comments again, if you dispute this. I have said multiple times, that it is better than much of what we have now and by lowering the number so that you would always choose to use this item, the item is worse than it was before. Is it possible to design better items? Sure. I believe I gave 8 examples of items with bonuses which are much more interesting than this and @theraxin#5169 gave the example of the survivor's wraps as an item which is more interesting.

    My point was, reducing the penalty to 25% is a step back in the design of this item. Does the value have to be -50%? No, but it should certainly be higher than 25%. I personally was fine with -50%. And no, I am not treating this item as far cleverer than it actually is, I acknowledge that its not much of an improvement over current gear, but it is an improvement. You are reading too much into what I am saying and not reading what I am actually writing.
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 355 Arc User
    edited January 2020

    You are trying to argue a slippery slope here, when in reality you cannot show that the existence of these boots will lead to one.

    I'd prefer to say that I'm trying to speculate, which is not the same as making slippery slope arguments. I think it's quite reasonable to propose that there will be a shifted preference towards healers that can drastically over-heal if optimal DPS now requires overhealing. And I think it not only reasonable but empirical to observe that this would affect healer balance (in the same way ToMM changed healer balance to favour Paladin overshields, as you must surely well know.) The narrative version I gave was was little slippery-slope fantastical, I'll grant you, but it's no more irrational than us discussing this particular item, at this particular number, somehow being the golden standard for risk-reward itemisation---especially when nobody, actually, in this thread is contesting that such mechanics might be an excellent feature in the game going forward.

    We could reverse the trend and ask instead: at what point is a penalty too harsh? Is "viable" really just a shorthand for "can be done", or should we make the term do a little more work than that---more subtlety, as I was suggesting earlier? Because I think, frankly, you are treating these boots as a cleverer device than they really are. The idea of risk-reward is promising: let's do it. This one specific sore-thumb item that is impossible to measure against any other, because it's the only meaningful member of its kind, and because its number is so extreme as to defy comparison or balancing: the community ought be expected to question and debate it.
    There is not a single person in this thread saying it is the golden standard for risk vs reward. Nobody. Please read my comments again, if you dispute this. I have said multiple times, that it is better than much of what we have now and by lowering the number so that you would always choose to use this item, the item is worse than it was before. Is it possible to design better items? Sure. I believe I gave 8 examples of items with bonuses which are much more interesting than this and @theraxin#5169 gave the example of the survivor's wraps as an item which is more interesting.

    My point was, reducing the penalty to 25% is a step back in the design of this item. Does the value have to be -50%? No, but it should certainly be higher than 25%. I personally was fine with -50%. And no, I am not treating this item as far cleverer than it actually is, I acknowledge that its not much of an improvement over current gear, but it is an improvement. You are reading too much into what I am saying and not reading what I am actually writing.
    Well, the thing is, I don't say either that it should be -25%. Neither of us thinks that 5% for -25% is good. But you only proposed people in this thread to be ignored and reverting back to -50%. You are refusing to propose any other change, because for you it makes it interesting. But giving damage to everything is not interesting, I think we can say that objectively, and negative incoming does not interests people here, only the healers, who are just afraid.

    So, maybe instead of wall-of-texting each other about that we should consider non-BiS healers for our own BiS purposes as interesting, maybe you should suggest a thing that interests other players.

    Or, as I suggested, just gang on the +10% incoming damage armor for 5k power to be changed for +15% of damage for -60% incoming heal. Or something like that, because I still have to wait for someone who tries to defend that piece of garbage.
  • ericlatrelleericlatrelle Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    Lol. I guess there will always be one in the bunch. Never in all my years of playing table top DnD or MMO's have I or anyone else I played with thought that an item that has penalties attached to it are considered "interesting" or fun. The point of having BIS gear is to have as much of an advantage with as little of a disadvantage as possible. How anybody can think using gear that gimps you would be fun or interesting is beyond me. But hey. Everybody has their thing, huh? I know I would never use that set if it still was at -50%. The devs in ESO tried to do the same thing when they did an overhaul of some of the profession abilities last year. They called it a kiss-curse. Want to know how that went? The players hated it and didn't hold back in letting the devs know how bad of an idea it was. I seriously hope this is not the direction the devs are going with future items or abilities.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User

    Lol. I guess there will always be one in the bunch. Never in all my years of playing table top DnD or MMO's have I or anyone else I played with thought that an item that has penalties attached to it are considered "interesting" or fun. The point of having BIS gear is to have as much of an advantage with as little of a disadvantage as possible. How anybody can think using gear that gimps you would be fun or interesting is beyond me. But hey. Everybody has their thing, huh? I know I would never use that set if it still was at -50%. The devs in ESO tried to do the same thing when they did an overhaul of some of the profession abilities last year. They called it a kiss-curse. Want to know how that went? The players hated it and didn't hold back in letting the devs know how bad of an idea it was. I seriously hope this is not the direction the devs are going with future items or abilities.


    There are plenty of people who think items with penalties are interesting. Google it, its easy to find. Here is an example:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/26041r/what_is_your_favorite_cursed_item/

    Furthermore, I can give examples of items/feats from other games which are hugely popular that have downsides. Easy example, Path of Exile, "Chaos Innoculation." It makes you immune to chaos damage (1 of the damage types) but sets your maximum life to 1 (there are different types of "life" in PoE, so someone using this would build into the other type, but it is still a large penalty). Just because you are not familiar with good item design with regards to maluses on items, doesn't mean it does not exist.
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 355 Arc User

    Lol. I guess there will always be one in the bunch. Never in all my years of playing table top DnD or MMO's have I or anyone else I played with thought that an item that has penalties attached to it are considered "interesting" or fun. The point of having BIS gear is to have as much of an advantage with as little of a disadvantage as possible. How anybody can think using gear that gimps you would be fun or interesting is beyond me. But hey. Everybody has their thing, huh? I know I would never use that set if it still was at -50%. The devs in ESO tried to do the same thing when they did an overhaul of some of the profession abilities last year. They called it a kiss-curse. Want to know how that went? The players hated it and didn't hold back in letting the devs know how bad of an idea it was. I seriously hope this is not the direction the devs are going with future items or abilities.

    So, no one in your party used Deck of Many things? No demonic tiefling? No person used Fireball, while risking 1 person in your party to get hurt? Never rolled on anything that they had disadvantage for? Or a thing that had too high difficulty level to surely do?

    Saying that things with possible penalties are not fun, eliminates risks and just decreases challenge overall. But your party goes into a dragon lair to get more challenged, not less, otherwise they would go salt mining. People want to be challenged, otherwise no one would play hard things, only RTQ and REDQ.

    My problem is not that it had a huge penalty, but how it was implemented and balanced. Throwing fat stacks of money for a problem to disappear or just pushing the burden to your healer, who might cannot or just refusing to comply with it, is not fun or interesting for me. It also not really mentally challenging as you basically rely on the healer to tell you, whether you can be healed and to which extent.
  • milehighxr#1299 milehighxr Member Posts: 409 Arc User

    You are trying to argue a slippery slope here, when in reality you cannot show that the existence of these boots will lead to one.

    I'd prefer to say that I'm trying to speculate, which is not the same as making slippery slope arguments. I think it's quite reasonable to propose that there will be a shifted preference towards healers that can drastically over-heal if optimal DPS now requires overhealing. And I think it not only reasonable but empirical to observe that this would affect healer balance (in the same way ToMM changed healer balance to favour Paladin overshields, as you must surely well know.) The narrative version I gave was was little slippery-slope fantastical, I'll grant you, but it's no more irrational than us discussing this particular item, at this particular number, somehow being the golden standard for risk-reward itemisation---especially when nobody, actually, in this thread is contesting that such mechanics might be an excellent feature in the game going forward.

    We could reverse the trend and ask instead: at what point is a penalty too harsh? Is "viable" really just a shorthand for "can be done", or should we make the term do a little more work than that---more subtlety, as I was suggesting earlier? Because I think, frankly, you are treating these boots as a cleverer device than they really are. The idea of risk-reward is promising: let's do it. This one specific sore-thumb item that is impossible to measure against any other, because it's the only meaningful member of its kind, and because its number is so extreme as to defy comparison or balancing: the community ought be expected to question and debate it.
    There is not a single person in this thread saying it is the golden standard for risk vs reward. Nobody. Please read my comments again, if you dispute this. I have said multiple times, that it is better than much of what we have now and by lowering the number so that you would always choose to use this item, the item is worse than it was before. Is it possible to design better items? Sure. I believe I gave 8 examples of items with bonuses which are much more interesting than this and @theraxin#5169 gave the example of the survivor's wraps as an item which is more interesting.

    My point was, reducing the penalty to 25% is a step back in the design of this item. Does the value have to be -50%? No, but it should certainly be higher than 25%. I personally was fine with -50%. And no, I am not treating this item as far cleverer than it actually is, I acknowledge that its not much of an improvement over current gear, but it is an improvement. You are reading too much into what I am saying and not reading what I am actually writing.
    Well, the thing is, I don't say either that it should be -25%. Neither of us thinks that 5% for -25% is good. But you only proposed people in this thread to be ignored and reverting back to -50%. You are refusing to propose any other change, because for you it makes it interesting. But giving damage to everything is not interesting, I think we can say that objectively, and negative incoming does not interests people here, only the healers, who are just afraid.

    So, maybe instead of wall-of-texting each other about that we should consider non-BiS healers for our own BiS purposes as interesting, maybe you should suggest a thing that interests other players.

    Or, as I suggested, just gang on the +10% incoming damage armor for 5k power to be changed for +15% of damage for -60% incoming heal. Or something like that, because I still have to wait for someone who tries to defend that piece of garbage.
    Honestly this item sounds great for paladins in PVE content. To make this viable for group content one would have to have max rank tactical enchants, and a full compliment of companions with the +% incoming healing bonus.
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 671 Arc User
    edited January 2020




    People want meaningful choices as in complexity in builds and their choices to reflect ANYTHING in their build. A 5% dmg buff on idiotic costs is not a meaningful choice.

    A choice between 5% damage and -50% incoming healing is a meaningful choice, compared to, "3% damage with at wills" and btw, I would use this item in that state in some circumstances, so much for it being "idiotic." There is a clear trade off and a player needs to decide for themselves if it is worthwhile. Is this choice as meaningful as choices that exist in other games? No. Here are some examples of items I would like to see in the game:
    (...)
    Fine. I won't call it idiotic if you stop acting as if whether or not you use something instantly determines the value of an item to the whole playerbase.
    Your examples of items (bonuses) however I can agree on. NW can learn a lot from other games (yeah, also POE) when it comes to gear. Thank you for writing them, I think I will edit them back in, I am confused with all the quoting atm.



    People want balance as in their characters not suddenly being less than what it was before. If the situation was reversed and SW would suddenly be on top of the dps charts next mod, they would fight hard if anybody talked about nerfs too. Which is probably not understandable if the standard argument is "But you know you CAN run tomm with it!!"

    Sometimes balance means nerfing things. Wizard gets nerfed in M18, do you see me complaining? Content is expected to have a certain level of difficulty and take a certain amount of time to clear. If a class is beating those expectations, you have 3 options.
    (...)
    No. I don't see you complaining. Probably for the same reason I have not complained about Warden nerfs or have not complained much about all that BS about "but those sucky HRs with their super 2x dailys BIS" whatnot. Because I still have all the options ingame.
    Especially considering how important things like paingiver is for real in a good group: not at all.
    Except that other nerfs have hurt other classes (not only, but for this discussion) in a way they are not able to experience or enjoy it to their liking (in a similar fashion to others), which is unfortunate and should be considered in the simpliest of ways: unhappy customers = unhappy shareholders.


    Furthermore, I said nothing about anyone's opinion being invalid, so please don't put words into my mouth. However since you brought it up, I will comment on it. Not all opinions have equal merit. You wouldn't trust an investigative journalist to perform heart surgery on you, since his field of specialization is journalism, not heart surgery. Someone who has a better understanding of the underlying systems is likely more qualified to give advice than someone with little to no understanding at all and yes, that includes knowing what the other person wants better than that other person does, since in reality, that other person doesn't know what they want. If you are terribly sick and you are not a medical specialist, you do not know what treatment should be used, but you know to trust the expert to know what you need to solve it.

    Oh please c'mon now, this is wrong on so many areas that I wonder how you were actually able to type that out, and this is the most fundamental problem I have with most of your posts, in bold, because I really feel like an old grandma shaking her head at this.
    You cannot speak for me or for anybody else, even if you were more qualified. I won't wonder anymore why you are seemingly so above everybody else, but for real:
    Do you see the bold part in a more global way? Are you generally agreeing to everything somebody above you in a hierarchy standing says just because somebody put them there? Can everybody on a lower step suddenly turn their brains off and be dictated what to do because it doesn't make any sense at all anyway?

    Are you the heart surgeon in this analogy?
    Oh my god, I'm glad I'm just got home from work so I can't get too worked up over this. Gimme a few hours.
    While you have indeed put a lot into this game, its easy to see, you won't get me to agree that our opinions don't have equal merit. Where are we? The devs can determine if they consider your opinions differently than others (and they might, I don't care) but: We are all players here. Everybody invested SOMETHING in this game. Everybodys opinion matters. If you don't agree with it, thats fine. I don't agree with you. I know it will still be done and implemented completetly different from what I would desire. Thats fine, too. It's hard for anybody to find an equal ground and not HAMSTER onto somebodys electric fence.
    But I won't start thinking that other people's experience has to suffer because I like my own so much. No matter yours or anybodies understanding of underlying systems...



    I'm tired of it, but I can't help to answer. I don't know why exactly this bothers me, so it probably got to do with my own issues I have with the current game. You are throwing around "meaningful choices" and "balance" as if there is either of those in the game atm, because obviously, people just don't get it like you do? I don't see it.

    You are right, we don't. Which is why when something is a slight improvement of the current status quo, people should put more effort into asking for more items like that, with more novel designs, then into destroying the only parts of the items which make them more interesting than what we have now.
    Yeah, perhaps.
    I thought there would be more thought put into it, is all. Like I said sometime earlier and many healers have also brought up is, that it still will be used by a wide margin of people as soon as it is attainable, no matter their incoming healing and whether they run group content or not. Just because you, or others equally far progressed in the game, can and are willing to only use it in a correct/possible/ "interesting" setting, doesn't mean others want. Yeah, yeah, that makes it interesting or whatever, but: Incoming healing is not something many players that haven't been around much understand or care about. (Rather care about...) And of course they blame it on the healers. Of course they won't want to give their 5% chance on a better paingiver chart away when they can just "get a better healer". Just because this is not your reality doesn't mean it won't be true. Healer-blaming is the first and coolest way to go, seemingly.
    I do not (and hope it didn't come across like it) consider the idea of multiple items for several possibilities the problem, I can personally also stomach switching it or dividing it across loadouts on my main. BUT I agree to several reasons stated between your response and this answer, so I won't type it out again. It doesn't matter anyway, since I know what I write doesn't touch you. Thats alright. I don't have a problem with "BIS" or "Tomm-people". But I do have a problem with so many people acting as if the game is only about them, when it should be about all of us.
    I'm not competitive enough to understand what moves you. I'm not casual enough to be satisfied with just the story either. I still like the game. If I can't share my opinion about gear just because I'm not in the top how-much% I will have even less to care about in NW than there already is.

    - bye bye -
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User
    edited January 2020


    Oh please c'mon now, this is wrong on so many areas that I wonder how you were actually able to type that out, and this is the most fundamental problem I have with most of your posts, in bold, because I really feel like an old grandma shaking her head at this.
    You cannot speak for me or for anybody else, even if you were more qualified. I won't wonder anymore why you are seemingly so above everybody else, but for real:
    Do you see the bold part in a more global way? Are you generally agreeing to everything somebody above you in a hierarchy standing says just because somebody put them there? Can everybody on a lower step suddenly turn their brains off and be dictated what to do because it doesn't make any sense at all anyway?

    Are you the heart surgeon in this analogy?
    Oh my god, I'm glad I'm just got home from work so I can't get too worked up over this. Gimme a few hours.
    While you have indeed put a lot into this game, its easy to see, you won't get me to agree that our opinions don't have equal merit. Where are we? The devs can determine if they consider your opinions differently than others (and they might, I don't care) but: We are all players here. Everybody invested SOMETHING in this game. Everybodys opinion matters. If you don't agree with it, thats fine. I don't agree with you. I know it will still be done and implemented completetly different from what I would desire. Thats fine, too. It's hard for anybody to find an equal ground and not HAMSTER onto somebodys electric fence.

    The point I was making, was not that you should completely dismiss someone's idea, but that some ideas have more value than others. If 1 idea earns someone 1000$ per hour and another idea earns someone 2000$ per hour, its fairly obvious on a value comparison 1 idea is worth more than the other. That is the general gist here. Someone with more experience with the system, is probably more invested into getting things right and probably also has a better idea of how to do so. Furthermore, at no point did I make reference to a general hierarchy, but rather specialist knowledge.

    And no, it doesn't mean they can't also make mistakes, but it also means that perhaps people should listen when they talk and if they don't agree with something, instead of just saying, "that is wrong" ask why, because maybe, just maybe, there is a good reason for it, even if you don't agree with it.

    I admit, I took the analogy too far, but will you get me to agree that my opinion and yours have equal merit? Absolutely not, simply because I invested more time into understanding how things work. Just because everyone's opinion matters, doesn't mean all opinions are equal. Note, I was not saying that I know what you want better than you do, but I was saying that in some extreme cases, 1 person can know what another needs better than them.


    But I won't start thinking that other people's experience has to suffer because I like my own so much. No matter yours or anybodies understanding of underlying systems...

    And at no point did I say anything like that. People are saying, "I won't like this," without even having tried it. Its a hypothetical situation right now. They might find, they actually do like it and it isn't as bad as what they are making up, if they gave it a chance. Just like every time there is a nerf to a class and histrionics begins, when in reality, the world is not ending and their class can still (most likely) be played.
  • edenfay#2737 edenfay Member Posts: 55 Arc User


    There is not a single person in this thread saying it is the golden standard for risk vs reward. Nobody. Please read my comments again, if you dispute this. I have said multiple times, that it is better than much of what we have now and by lowering the number so that you would always choose to use this item, the item is worse than it was before.

    The impression is that you are treating it as the golden standard. In your initial post, you only expressed regret that thsee boots have gone from -50% to -25%; furthermore you say that game design is going backwards and that the community has given bad, ill-informed feedback. But the community has responded to you, and responded initially, with nuance. You have been very consistent and thorough about defending your views on this item, but not about acknowledging those nuances: concerns about balance between healer paragons if optimal DPS reqiures overhealing, concerns about the choice of this stat in particular (in a mod with no positive itemisation specifically for healers!), or the merits of compromises between 5%-50% and 5%-25%. Instead you keep repeating that the item is viable, that you could use it, and that the community should try it before it complains. Instead you say that you expressed your views already in closed beta. All of this, I repeat, gives the impression that these boots are somehow unimpeachable in their current form.

    How hard is it to recognise that healers may regret that optimal DPS in MOD18 would require a "harsh" penalty to incoming healing? This is not an especially fun game for healers: scaling for us is awful, our crit ratio is esoteric and requires us to fiddle even more with our gear when scaled, there is very little % healing gear to covet (as opposed to the endless suite of % DPS gear, this item included), and so on. You say that I'm not reading what you're writing, and maybe I am not doing your argument complete justice: this is a hard medium for discussion. But I also feel that none of these social observations around healing, the culture of being a healer, the choice of incoming healing as the sacrificial stat, etc. are being received by you. I repeat: healer balance in Neverwinter has just gotten to a relatively good place. I would be fine with introducing a pair of 3% damage, -25% incoming healing boots: see how it goes.

    When I say you treat these boots as too clever, I mean this: your own example of how you might use them strategically was ToMM, in which you currently facetank certain reds. But that example itself cements how ToMM is trivial for you, andyYour usage of the boots here only provides the illusion of character development by accelerating the completion of already-trivial content. I'm quite sure you already run with the minimal-necessary health and have made many other concessions to achieve greater burn speed. These boots aren't Path of Exile design mentality; they're Diablo 3.

    All being said, I'm happy to concede you certainly must have a more nuanced view that I am not seeing clearly conveyed, because there is so much now to read, because your views are in closed beta, and because we tend to paraphrase and quote one another. So hopefully there is some sort of consensus here.
  • carloswartune#5709 carloswartune Member Posts: 239 Arc User

    This is not an especially fun game for healers: scaling for us is awful, our crit ratio is esoteric and requires us to fiddle even more with our gear when scaled, there is very little % healing gear to covet (as opposed to the endless suite of % DPS gear, this item included), and so on.

    I know that %-healing gear would be very interesting for many players (specially for paladins), but as a Cleric I feel that most of my heals are already "big enough" for most things with the outgoing healing provided by companions, and %-healing gear wouldn't really be that effective (as opposed to %-damage gear, that is always welcome because more damage = faster runs). For that reason, I would really like to see some pieces of gear that grant additional effects to heals instead of just making them bigger. I know this discussion is off-topic here so I hope they make a gear focused CDP where we can make some suggestions about these kinds of bonuses.
  • edenfay#2737 edenfay Member Posts: 55 Arc User

    This is not an especially fun game for healers: scaling for us is awful, our crit ratio is esoteric and requires us to fiddle even more with our gear when scaled, there is very little % healing gear to covet (as opposed to the endless suite of % DPS gear, this item included), and so on.

    I know that %-healing gear would be very interesting for many players (specially for paladins), but as a Cleric I feel that most of my heals are already "big enough" for most things with the outgoing healing provided by companions, and %-healing gear wouldn't really be that effective (as opposed to %-damage gear, that is always welcome because more damage = faster runs). For that reason, I would really like to see some pieces of gear that grant additional effects to heals instead of just making them bigger. I know this discussion is off-topic here so I hope they make a gear focused CDP where we can make some suggestions about these kinds of bonuses.
    Absolutely. And as a warlock healer, the main reason I'd want more % healing gear is---ironically---to allow us to support items like these boots!
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 487 Arc User
    I think I will continue with my Heels of Fury, it makes no sense for me to change my enchant's Dark for Tatical, so that I can use a boot that despite giving me bonus damage will cause me to lose almost all the bonus gain that the Tactical enchants would give me. In the end I only imagine novice and evolving players who don't have much knowledge of the game wearing this boot and dying in the dungeons and blaming the healers for being bad.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,216 Arc User
    These boots shouldn't be used if your healer isn't already overhealing you as DPS. Period, full stop. Please stop using the argument that these boots penalize healers. These are only to be used when you healer can basically full heal your tank (who isn't wearing the boots, and if they are should be shot on sight) with one or two encounters. A dps usually has about half the HP of an equally geared tank from what I've seen.
  • edenfay#2737 edenfay Member Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    arazith07 said:

    These boots shouldn't be used if your healer isn't already overhealing you as DPS. Period, full stop. Please stop using the argument that these boots penalize healers. These are only to be used when you healer can basically full heal your tank (who isn't wearing the boots, and if they are should be shot on sight) with one or two encounters. A dps usually has about half the HP of an equally geared tank from what I've seen.

    These boots have a penalty, so evidently someone is being penalized for wearing them. If the penalty is harsh, then someone is being harshly penalized. And I cannot follow this line of reasoning that only DPS---wily, artful, well-geared, nimble DPS---wear the penalty, and that healers have no stake in the matter. Never mind that no complementary risk-reward item exists for healers that that might swing matters back in their favour (say, boots with outgoing healing, but with some negative consequence.) Never mind that healers will, at the end of the day, just grit our teeth and heal twice as hard, or be replaced if we cannot, because too many players in this game treat healers like gear or companions to be discarded and upgraded as necessary.

    What gives me such a headache about this entire discussion is that the compromise is right in front of you. There are healers who want to have a discussion about expanding this approach to itemisation to be more than another brute-force increase to DPS; healers who want to discuss how such items may clash with the differing overheal abilities of respective paragons (for the nth time, soulweaver magnitudes were clearly not designed with this item in mind); healers who are happy to discuss a number somewhere between -50% and -25%. And then there are folks who think "period, full stop" is enough to stop this entire discussion in its tracks.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User


    The impression is that you are treating it as the golden standard. In your initial post, you only expressed regret that thsee boots have gone from -50% to -25%; furthermore you say that game design is going backwards and that the community has given bad, ill-informed feedback. But the community has responded to you, and responded initially, with nuance. You have been very consistent and thorough about defending your views on this item, but not about acknowledging those nuances: concerns about balance between healer paragons if optimal DPS reqiures overhealing, concerns about the choice of this stat in particular (in a mod with no positive itemisation specifically for healers!), or the merits of compromises between 5%-50% and 5%-25%. Instead you keep repeating that the item is viable, that you could use it, and that the community should try it before it complains. Instead you say that you expressed your views already in closed beta. All of this, I repeat, gives the impression that these boots are somehow unimpeachable in their current form.

    I would say that at least this community didn't want to escalate the argument further so stayed away. I'm sure the opinions in the actual community will vary higher, but at the end, the majority looks at items with the immediate perspective, and not long term design goals and implications.


    How hard is it to recognise that healers may regret that optimal DPS in MOD18 would require a "harsh" penalty to incoming healing? This is not an especially fun game for healers: scaling for us is awful, our crit ratio is esoteric and requires us to fiddle even more with our gear when scaled, there is very little % healing gear to covet (as opposed to the endless suite of % DPS gear, this item included), and so on. You say that I'm not reading what you're writing, and maybe I am not doing your argument complete justice: this is a hard medium for discussion. But I also feel that none of these social observations around healing, the culture of being a healer, the choice of incoming healing as the sacrificial stat, etc. are being received by you. I repeat: healer balance in Neverwinter has just gotten to a relatively good place. I would be fine with introducing a pair of 3% damage, -25% incoming healing boots: see how it goes.

    As a healer (OP), I don't see any issue with this. If someone wears those and dies, I'll make sure to point the boots to them in a vary capital lettered way. Repeatedly, rubbing their dead nose in their mistaken life boot choices.

    But besides the direct aspect, two things:

    In all content except ToMM it actually measures how well the DPS player dodges. Only ToMM has significant unavoidable damage.

    It does differentiate a healer who puts the effort and one that doesn't, if one is with 100% attentions, makes sure every dps who didn't dodge in time, get healed, as opposed to a healer who reads the forums on their second screen (Me? Never!) creates a tangible results for their effort, recognition and something to improve and to achieve. This is not a bad thing, on the contrary, finally a very clear reward for effort.

    Both are aspects of risk vs reward, and situational need, I'm sure that if there was a healer feat/aura that allows permanently to buff allies at the cost of healing magnitude, people would have used that for some dps checks and per need. In comparison gear like that allows better fine grained choice, tanks don't need to suffer from this if they need heals, and dps can choose it if they are confidant in their ability to dodge, and if not, they have only themselves to blame.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    edited January 2020

    arazith07 said:

    These boots shouldn't be used if your healer isn't already overhealing you as DPS. Period, full stop. Please stop using the argument that these boots penalize healers. These are only to be used when you healer can basically full heal your tank (who isn't wearing the boots, and if they are should be shot on sight) with one or two encounters. A dps usually has about half the HP of an equally geared tank from what I've seen.

    These boots have a penalty, so evidently someone is being penalized for wearing them. If the penalty is harsh, then someone is being harshly penalized. And I cannot follow this line of reasoning that only DPS---wily, artful, well-geared, nimble DPS---wear the penalty, and that healers have no stake in the matter. Never mind that no complementary risk-reward item exists for healers that that might swing matters back in their favour (say, boots with outgoing healing, but with some negative consequence.) Never mind that healers will, at the end of the day, just grit our teeth and heal twice as hard, or be replaced if we cannot, because too many players in this game treat healers like gear or companions to be discarded and upgraded as necessary.
    I feel that this is the wrong "power play", if a dps constantly dies and refuses to remove the boots, I will remove their head, as obviously it is an empty dead weight that hampers their ability to dodge.

    Team play is about adapting to the capability of the party and using the best fitting items/skills and whatever, if someone doesn't understand that, then it's them that need to be removed. Yes, the world is not utopia, but at the end there is a limit of how much we should compromise due to idiots.

    As a side note, this is a good reason why -50% is actually better than -25% in that aspect, it creates a clearer risk/reward, dodge or die impression. And as is falls on the wearer to put or remove, take that risk or not. With lower values, it is a race against more obscure healers capability, divinity management.

    Edit, addendum: Doesn't mean I'm for 50% or against 25% or vice versa, just pointing out that in this case, a very clear and harsh risk reward has its benefits.
    Post edited by micky1p00 on
  • ericlatrelleericlatrelle Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    > @theraxin#5169 said:
    > (Quote)
    > So, no one in your party used Deck of Many things? No demonic tiefling? No person used Fireball, while risking 1 person in your party to get hurt? Never rolled on anything that they had disadvantage for? Or a thing that had too high difficulty level to surely do?
    >
    > Saying that things with possible penalties are not fun, eliminates risks and just decreases challenge overall. But your party goes into a dragon lair to get more challenged, not less, otherwise they would go salt mining. People want to be challenged, otherwise no one would play hard things, only RTQ and REDQ.
    >
    > My problem is not that it had a huge penalty, but how it was implemented and balanced. Throwing fat stacks of money for a problem to disappear or just pushing the burden to your healer, who might cannot or just refusing to comply with it, is not fun or interesting for me. It also not really mentally challenging as you basically rely on the healer to tell you, whether you can be healed and to which extent.

    OK. I see that there is a misunderstanding here or you both are being willfully disingenuous to this conversation. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it is the former. Yes I have used the Deck of Many Things, Wands of Wonder and experienced difficult scenarios to overcome. But that is not the context that this discussion is about. I'm talking about gear that you outfit your character with for combat. I figured that point would have been obvious since we are talking about a piece of armor. And no. In no campaign that I have ever played or any MMO have I ever encountered anyone who willingly equipped a piece of gear that would penalize them unless it was a plot item to the story.
  • dracory1#6808 dracory1 Member Posts: 74 Arc User
    So, looking at the discussion, I've decided to throw in a dime from myself.

    Rusted Iron Greaves are by no mean a bad item at their current state. I have a maxed out rogue, with all dark enchantments and capped defense for Infernal Citadel. The risk to reward ratio of these boots is nearly non-existent to me, most healers heal me to 100% in one encounter. Even if not, I have an option to use potions to support myself, along with healing potion potency boon. In ToMM and citadel healer is expected to have enough OH to heal a tank easily. Below that I have bulette pup power to support myself as well.

    I've ran with these boots, solo or in dungeon they made little to no difference. My recommendation is to not blame a DPS dying because of these boots because there are no heavy healer checks below ToMM. The only way I can see these being bad is when running with a pug/baby healer with less than 20% OH.

    <font color="cyan">
    I do agree that healers should get their own +% healing gear though, so far only Tiamat set has +5% to both IH and OH.
    </font>
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User

    > @theraxin#5169 said:

    > (Quote)

    > So, no one in your party used Deck of Many things? No demonic tiefling? No person used Fireball, while risking 1 person in your party to get hurt? Never rolled on anything that they had disadvantage for? Or a thing that had too high difficulty level to surely do?

    >

    > Saying that things with possible penalties are not fun, eliminates risks and just decreases challenge overall. But your party goes into a dragon lair to get more challenged, not less, otherwise they would go salt mining. People want to be challenged, otherwise no one would play hard things, only RTQ and REDQ.

    >

    > My problem is not that it had a huge penalty, but how it was implemented and balanced. Throwing fat stacks of money for a problem to disappear or just pushing the burden to your healer, who might cannot or just refusing to comply with it, is not fun or interesting for me. It also not really mentally challenging as you basically rely on the healer to tell you, whether you can be healed and to which extent.



    OK. I see that there is a misunderstanding here or you both are being willfully disingenuous to this conversation. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it is the former. Yes I have used the Deck of Many Things, Wands of Wonder and experienced difficult scenarios to overcome. But that is not the context that this discussion is about. I'm talking about gear that you outfit your character with for combat. I figured that point would have been obvious since we are talking about a piece of armor. And no. In no campaign that I have ever played or any MMO have I ever encountered anyone who willingly equipped a piece of gear that would penalize them unless it was a plot item to the story.

    You must not have played many games then.

    "20% increased damage taken. -50% fire resistance."

    This item sees use.


    This keystone is very popular.

    I can link 1000's of items from that game above and multiple passive skillpoints which have negatives as well as positives. That game is arguably the most successful action rpg on the market at this moment in time. In fact, in terms of item design I would argue path of exile has the best item design of any game at this moment in time, with some of the downside/upside combinations on some items being so novel, that I am actually impressed someone came up with them in the first place. This is a game in the sub genre of RPGs that cares exclusively about itemization and min maxing, the sub genre, where if item design is bad, your game fails but a poor story can be shoved aside. I think the people who make games in that sub genre know a thing or two about good item design.

    Just because you are not familiar with the idea, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It isn't even new either, There were items like this even in Baldur's Gate.
    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm
    http://dndsrd.net/magicItemsICA.html

    Even D&D pen-and-paper had flaws that you could take to get extra feats and items with drawbacks. As long as drawbacks are clearly stated in the item description and work accordingly, I don't see any issue in having items with them.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 355 Arc User
    edited January 2020

    > @theraxin#5169 said:

    > (Quote)

    > So, no one in your party used Deck of Many things? No demonic tiefling? No person used Fireball, while risking 1 person in your party to get hurt? Never rolled on anything that they had disadvantage for? Or a thing that had too high difficulty level to surely do?

    >

    > Saying that things with possible penalties are not fun, eliminates risks and just decreases challenge overall. But your party goes into a dragon lair to get more challenged, not less, otherwise they would go salt mining. People want to be challenged, otherwise no one would play hard things, only RTQ and REDQ.

    >

    > My problem is not that it had a huge penalty, but how it was implemented and balanced. Throwing fat stacks of money for a problem to disappear or just pushing the burden to your healer, who might cannot or just refusing to comply with it, is not fun or interesting for me. It also not really mentally challenging as you basically rely on the healer to tell you, whether you can be healed and to which extent.



    OK. I see that there is a misunderstanding here or you both are being willfully disingenuous to this conversation. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it is the former. Yes I have used the Deck of Many Things, Wands of Wonder and experienced difficult scenarios to overcome. But that is not the context that this discussion is about. I'm talking about gear that you outfit your character with for combat. I figured that point would have been obvious since we are talking about a piece of armor. And no. In no campaign that I have ever played or any MMO have I ever encountered anyone who willingly equipped a piece of gear that would penalize them unless it was a plot item to the story.

    You directly said: "Never in all my years of playing table top DnD or MMO's have I or anyone else I played with thought that an item that has penalties attached to it are considered "interesting" or fun. "

    That either was not true or your D&D experience just not how I play D&D, because I took risks. And as you said, you did too, so you know that penalizing items might be fun. Deck of Many Cards is so penalizing that it can break any module or campaign.

    But penalizing items in D&D and in an MMO are generally the same. The risk vs reward calculation decides whether they should be used, but their design and interactions decide if they are interesting and fun and if I want to use them. If they change the way to play, significantly, maybe to a harder, but more fulfilling way, then they are interesting and fun for those who likes to play that way.

    "In no campaign that I have ever played or any MMO have I ever encountered anyone who willingly equipped a piece of gear that would penalize them unless it was a plot item to the story." You, personally, haven't, however, I'd challenge even that. When Jarl's gaze came out, it gave severely less HP and stats for significantly more power to your character. That was a penalizing item (in a very boring way to be honest). Did you not see anyone, who decided a little more risk for that extra power?

    Or maybe you haven't seen, because the list of penalizing items are short and mostly boring. When the demogorgon armlet came out, the problem with it wasn't that it had a penalty, because you could just go for more lifesteal, but that it had some interaction that just plain killed you, while it gave like 1k extra power in times when 150k power was the norm. The procs were taking down the shield the DC gave you, which was essential for survival at the times and just negated your Barkshield enchant completely. And 1k power, as 5% damage, is not interesting enough.

  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    edited January 2020



    I wouldn't mind items that are situationally better than others IFF

    ...the cost to swap enchantments was reduced or removed AND it didn't cost so damn much to upgrade artifacts and artifact gear.

    Not everyone is rich enough to afford multiple loadouts for each dungeon and possibly an entire set of enchantments for each. OR have thousands of gold laying around and a group willing to wait for you to swap enchants.

    As for artifact sets like the new one coming out, it's not just RP's we have to spend, but also stones, marks, and wards. Can cost multiple million ad, and remember, us plebeians live off 100k/day. It's like needing to rank up new weapons each mod, not many people can afford that, and even less people like it.


    Without these roadblocks I'm all for situationally bis items.


    Ideally, I would like enchantments to be part of loadouts, so that we can switch loadouts at a campfire and our enchantments get swapped out too. How they handle the gold cost is up to them I suppose, but something reasonable.
    As for situationally bis artifact sets, IFF they are going to make something only good in very specific situations, like just against demons and devils, then the bonus better be damn good, why else would I drop a couple mil for it?

    "I cannot afford it therefor it should not exist" is not a good argument.
    What I'm saying is that if you want to have items that we'll need to switch out for different dungeons, and possibly different bosses within those dungeons, and further still possibly for different mobs in those dungeons, it would be very nice if they at least made that easy to do, the cost of gold is a factor as it's not easy to farm gold. I never said it should not exist, I said "I wouldn't mind.". So don't stick words in my mouth, as you've accused people of doing to you. I also said "I wouldn't spend millions of ad" for an artifact set that has a ridiculously low advantage over another set. I never once said it shouldn't exist, I actually really like your ideas on some new items to make the game more interesting.

    My point is this, if you want a wider audience for such items, make them easy to utilize. In a business sense, unless only a few people are actually funding this game, it makes sense to appeal to a larger population. Also, if an artifact set is going to be so situationally bis, such as just for one zone, dungeons, or select set of bosses, the bonus ought to be worth the cost of upgrading, if not, most people won't use it, and you end up with another set like the barovia weapon set, which I don't know a single person personally who actually bothered with restoring those. This goes to the developer's time and energy put into such situationally bis items, if very few people bother with using them, why should they have made them in the first place? It cost's money to pay the developers, and if the 0.1% of the game population who utilizes such content, doesn't cover the cost of the development time, it wasn't worth doing in my opinion.

    I do believe if you're going to do something half-assed, it's not worth doing at all, but that's a personal sentiment, not something that I impose on others by saying "should not exist, period.", I just pose the question, "why do it at all?" and let you decide.

    Personally, my main goal in playing the game isn't to maximize dps, or paingiver status. My main goal is to maximize in-game profitability, my second is efficiency. Dps factors into efficiency, but if the cost to utilize such items outweighs the benefit of using them, I won't. For cost, I'm not just talking about gold, or ad, but also time and hassle to switching out between such items at a moment's notice. Like I said before, not many people are going to be willing to wait around for someone to switch out their rings, boots, or whatever, as well as their items. For some, it's just a matter of unequiping and equipping something else, but for a vast majority of people that includes swapping enchantments as well, and the cost of doing so, isn't worth it. So it's my personal opinion, that if they're going to have such niche items, they should also make it easy enough to utilize such items, otherwise it may not be worth the investment on the company's part. They have to ask themselves, if the number of people utilizing such items and systems is great enough to cover the cost of developing them, if not, is there a way to widen the audience such that more people will utilize such content and it will be profitable. I've stated my personal opinion and thoughts on how to make it so.
    Post edited by quickfoot#7851 on

  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 355 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    arazith07 said:

    These boots shouldn't be used if your healer isn't already overhealing you as DPS. Period, full stop. Please stop using the argument that these boots penalize healers. These are only to be used when you healer can basically full heal your tank (who isn't wearing the boots, and if they are should be shot on sight) with one or two encounters. A dps usually has about half the HP of an equally geared tank from what I've seen.

    These boots have a penalty, so evidently someone is being penalized for wearing them. If the penalty is harsh, then someone is being harshly penalized. And I cannot follow this line of reasoning that only DPS---wily, artful, well-geared, nimble DPS---wear the penalty, and that healers have no stake in the matter. Never mind that no complementary risk-reward item exists for healers that that might swing matters back in their favour (say, boots with outgoing healing, but with some negative consequence.) Never mind that healers will, at the end of the day, just grit our teeth and heal twice as hard, or be replaced if we cannot, because too many players in this game treat healers like gear or companions to be discarded and upgraded as necessary.
    I feel that this is the wrong "power play", if a dps constantly dies and refuses to remove the boots, I will remove their head, as obviously it is an empty dead weight that hampers their ability to dodge.

    Team play is about adapting to the capability of the party and using the best fitting items/skills and whatever, if someone doesn't understand that, then it's them that need to be removed. Yes, the world is not utopia, but at the end there is a limit of how much we should compromise due to idiots.

    As a side note, this is a good reason why -50% is actually better than -25% in that aspect, it creates a clearer risk/reward, dodge or die impression. And as is falls on the wearer to put or remove, take that risk or not. With lower values, it is a race against more obscure healers capability, divinity management.

    Edit, addendum: Doesn't mean I'm for 50% or against 25% or vice versa, just pointing out that in this case, a very clear and harsh risk reward has its benefits.
    Yeah, but if the only 2 option is to either die because your healer is not capable to support it or not use it, it's not an option. You said that "we should not compromise for idiots", but if you have to be an idiot for it to be something you need to think for, maybe the item is not that good or interesting for the "non-idiot" population. Because, for me, getting less heals is not interesting as I'm not the one who heals myself. And I don't have much option to do so. Look at the gear, as itself: -50% for +5% damage is not nuanced and as risk/benefit goes, just does not worth it. Of course, if you expand into spending the price of a decent legendary mount, it starts to get better. But that's just throwing money at the problem, until it disappears. Or you can say that your group is overpowered enough to carry it's weight. But maybe overpowered groups are not balanced, by their definition and that is the problem.

    I want 3% damage for -25% incoming heal, because it IS a clear risk/reward, but in the opposite direction. You get not that much for not that much cost. But if we get more items like these introduced, you can choose 3% bonus for -25% or +6% for -50% or maybe use 4 gear for -100%. There is a more precise optimisation for your group and your own skills and because their scaling nature, you can only use 1 for -25%, build your character and then take an other -25% when you feel ready. And you might be wrong and die and that's a learning experience. But when you die and die, your option is not to just discard the idea whatsoever, but to scale down, probably by one. You get more options with this approach.



  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    Just a note about game design in general:

    People who never played the Fallout series, and specifically the original isomeric 1, 2 with their entire traits system should immediately consider themselves a person without culture and spend their immediate free time catching up.

    https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Fallout_traits



  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 355 Arc User
    edited January 2020



    Well, the thing is, I don't say either that it should be -25%. Neither of us thinks that 5% for -25% is good. But you only proposed people in this thread to be ignored and reverting back to -50%. You are refusing to propose any other change, because for you it makes it interesting. But giving damage to everything is not interesting, I think we can say that objectively, and negative incoming does not interests people here, only the healers, who are just afraid.

    So, maybe instead of wall-of-texting each other about that we should consider non-BiS healers for our own BiS purposes as interesting, maybe you should suggest a thing that interests other players.

    Or, as I suggested, just gang on the +10% incoming damage armor for 5k power to be changed for +15% of damage for -60% incoming heal. Or something like that, because I still have to wait for someone who tries to defend that piece of garbage.

    Honestly this item sounds great for paladins in PVE content. To make this viable for group content one would have to have max rank tactical enchants, and a full compliment of companions with the +% incoming healing bonus.
    Well, let's coin this idea seriously:



    I took the damage down for 10%, because after I calculated for a while, 15% seems pretty over-the-top. Note that the current Ebony stained armor only gives 10% Power, not DPS as I checked, it does not give it based on your current Power, but without the bondings.

    Now, the diffence between this and the old shoe is that, they both coexist and that I still don't consider this armor a great and interesting thing, just better than the old, absolutely useless armor. But, if paladins in general can use it, and I can at least consider other options, then it's a win for everyone.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User

    micky1p00 said:

    arazith07 said:

    These boots shouldn't be used if your healer isn't already overhealing you as DPS. Period, full stop. Please stop using the argument that these boots penalize healers. These are only to be used when you healer can basically full heal your tank (who isn't wearing the boots, and if they are should be shot on sight) with one or two encounters. A dps usually has about half the HP of an equally geared tank from what I've seen.

    These boots have a penalty, so evidently someone is being penalized for wearing them. If the penalty is harsh, then someone is being harshly penalized. And I cannot follow this line of reasoning that only DPS---wily, artful, well-geared, nimble DPS---wear the penalty, and that healers have no stake in the matter. Never mind that no complementary risk-reward item exists for healers that that might swing matters back in their favour (say, boots with outgoing healing, but with some negative consequence.) Never mind that healers will, at the end of the day, just grit our teeth and heal twice as hard, or be replaced if we cannot, because too many players in this game treat healers like gear or companions to be discarded and upgraded as necessary.
    I feel that this is the wrong "power play", if a dps constantly dies and refuses to remove the boots, I will remove their head, as obviously it is an empty dead weight that hampers their ability to dodge.

    Team play is about adapting to the capability of the party and using the best fitting items/skills and whatever, if someone doesn't understand that, then it's them that need to be removed. Yes, the world is not utopia, but at the end there is a limit of how much we should compromise due to idiots.

    As a side note, this is a good reason why -50% is actually better than -25% in that aspect, it creates a clearer risk/reward, dodge or die impression. And as is falls on the wearer to put or remove, take that risk or not. With lower values, it is a race against more obscure healers capability, divinity management.

    Edit, addendum: Doesn't mean I'm for 50% or against 25% or vice versa, just pointing out that in this case, a very clear and harsh risk reward has its benefits.
    Yeah, but if the only 2 option is to either die because your healer is not capable to support it or not use it, it's not an option. You said that "we should not compromise for idiots", but if you have to be an idiot for it to be something you need to think for, maybe the item is not that good or interesting for the "non-idiot" population. Because, for me, getting less heals is not interesting as I'm not the one who heals myself. And I don't have much option to do so. Look at the gear, as itself: -50% for +5% damage is not nuanced and as risk/benefit goes, just does not worth it. Of course, if you expand into spending the price of a decent legendary mount, it starts to get better. But that's just throwing money at the problem, until it disappears. Or you can say that your group is overpowered enough to carry it's weight. But maybe overpowered groups are not balanced, by their definition and that is the problem.
    I don't fully or perhaps correctly understand your point.

    First a DPS should be able to dodge, then failing that, the healer should compensate dodging mistakes or facetanking choices with heals, failing that, yes not using boots is the correct choice.

    I'm not sure why it is not an option? If someone think they are good enough and want to squeeze the additional 5% (or whatever) go for it, or if they rely on a healer that can allow them to squeeze that, go for it too. It will obviously not work for all people, and for all groups. But in some groups/content it is a viable option, and will push people to be better.

    My point about stupid people was in regards for those that will attempt to kick the healer instead of removing said negative effect.

    "Because, for me, getting less heals is not interesting as I'm not the one who heals myself. And I don't have much option to do so"

    Perhaps here is the view difference, IMO if you use such negative effect it is foremost on the DPS to not get hit. If you do get hit, you know that the healer will be overtaxed, will get out of divinity (or etc) and the party will wipe.
    The point is that the chain of events starts with DPS using this + not dodging red, which is fully on the DPS in terms of responsibility.
    In the case of unavoidable damage, there is a difference, and indeed, there it falls on the healers gear / skill / build / whatever to overcome such negative effect, but I will say that that only applies to ToMM and there you set up upfront, as a group effort, and depends on the group itemization, if people have the HP + Griffon = viable (for example), if not you risk it or not, or make your choices.

    "Look at the gear, as itself: -50% for +5% damage is not nuanced and as risk/benefit goes, just does not worth it"

    Why not? You think the demerit too high for the benefit? Perhaps, but as is I'm sure there are people that will use it. Right now there are people who will use that one more darkened over tactical for even worse ratio. And other people who can take the healing penalty in stride because they are good at applying other mitigation or dodging. If it's a niche at 5/50 and popular at 5/25 I don't know. But if it is too popular it defeats its purpose IMO, items like that should become situational and after achieving the capability to compensate over their negative part, and not something in every build.

    I do not understand the legendary price part.

    " Or you can say that your group is overpowered enough to carry it's weight."

    Lets rename it to "Powerful / skilled / geared enough"
    We can take for example currently Orcus set, vs Arcturia. With Arcturia it is much easier to get needed stats, more HP, more power, yet at some point (pre-upcoming-nerf) people will swap to Orcus (or plan ahead to use it). It's the same concept of trade offs, just less pronounced.
    You are not overpowered to use Orcus, you just upgrading your gear based on your other capabilities, gear, and situation.


    I want 3% damage for -25% incoming heal, because it IS a clear risk/reward, but in the opposite direction. You get not that much for not that much cost. But if we get more items like these introduced, you can choose 3% bonus for -25% or +6% for -50% or maybe use 4 gear for -100%. There is a more precise optimisation for your group and your own skills and because their scaling nature, you can only use 1 for -25%, build your character and then take an other -25% when you feel ready. And you might be wrong and die and that's a learning experience. But when you die and die, your option is not to just discard the idea whatsoever, but to scale down, probably by one. You get more options with this approach.

    I think that the core concept of such items is their situational and "something to achieve" status. If you make the bonus low enough, everyone will just run with it, and what you did essentially is nerfed the entire server incoming healing. (Which I'm sure the devs will not object, but I don't think it is a good idea)
    This essentially creates the same "Healer must be capable to overheal this". From a choice and responsibility on the DPS, the wide usage becomes defacto standard, loosing its meaning as choice, and as something that you need reach to be able to use.


    As a side note, in closed beta I suggested a system of "gems" (not for items, but general) that will allow trading one stat for another with perhaps some penalty. for example loos 10k Crit, get 4.5k defense, 4.5k avoidance (just random example) and as part of it, it allows increasing the values per mod, creating viable chase items, and/or long term things to craft / use.
    (Not exactly related, but I just remembered, but such stat things or similar effects can have the sliding potency, while incoming healing is more of a special case)
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 671 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:


    As a side note, in closed beta I suggested a system of "gems" (not for items, but general) that will allow trading one stat for another with perhaps some penalty. for example loos 10k Crit, get 4.5k defense, 4.5k avoidance (just random example) and as part of it, it allows increasing the values per mod, creating viable chase items, and/or long term things to craft / use.
    (Not exactly related, but I just remembered, but such stat things or similar effects can have the sliding potency, while incoming healing is more of a special case)

    I would completely support that.

    - bye bye -
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    As an example of the point I'm trying to make of cost vs efficiency gain for situationally bis items, and how making it easier to utilize such items would be good for everyone, lets take a look at ToNG for a moment.

    In ToNG we have several encounters with Yuanti and Undead. How many people actually use/d the Yuanti slayer rings in this dungeon? They are clearly better than anything else for encounters involving Yuanti, and the same goes for rings of Undead slayer, and they have 0 handicaps; however, the cost (including hassle) of switching out your rings and enchantments outweighed the increase in efficiency for said encounters, as a result, a vast majority of people use/d shadowstalker rings or something else such as sniper/swordsman perk, as they can use them throughout the dungeon.

    All I'm trying to say is that if you want to have such items developed, and for the time of development, testing, and qa that goes into such endeavors to be more worthwhile, it makes perfect sense to reduce the cost of utilizing them, for example, by making enchantments more like what we have with runestones and companion gear.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. For items such as Artifacts, Artifact gear, and Artifact Weapons that have significant cost of upgrading, the bonuses ought be clearly better than anything else for such situations. Take for example a Lamborghini vs a Mustang, the Lambo is clearly better than the Mustang in terms of performance, which is why people are willing to spend exorbitant amounts of money on them. However, you wouldn't want to take a lambo out when you want to drive your entire family around town. Now lets say for the sake of argument that lambo's weren't actually better than other performance vehicles, or only marginally so, how many people would actually pay for them?

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