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Official Feedback Thread: PVP Changes
sgrantdev
Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 22Cryptic Developer › Cryptic Developer
Greetings Fellow Explorers,
In preparation for module 12B’s debut we thought we would break down all of the great PvP changes coming your way. Please keep in mind that we plan to continue making additional adjustments in the future, and these are merely the adjustments we have planned for the upcoming module.
Please take some time to digest these changes and give us feedback. That feedback may help shape our plans for future changes. Now lets get to the meat of this post.
With that out of the way let’s focus on what you really want to know, what happens with the tenacity on PvP gear? We have redistributed the tenacity stat into stats already on the equipment or replaced it outright.
The level in the parenthetical is the item level that the gear will be raised to when in a PvP area. To compensate for this scaling of item levels the base values for certain PvP gear has been reduced. The reasoning behind this is to continue to support the paradigm of equipment earned from PvE sources remaining the most effective for that activity. In either case strong PvP gear should become more viable in PvE, and vice versa.
Adjusted iLevel per set:
This effect can stack up to 4 times with each stack further reducing the duration of control effects by 25%, eventually rendering them ineffective. Each stack is independent meaning that each time a player is hit they gain a separate stack that starts its own timer. If at any time you have all 4 stacks then you will be immune to control effects for the length of your oldest stack.
Leadboards
Fixed the leaderboard ranking bug where players would see drastic shifts in placement after a match. This was very noticeable when you won a match and expected any movement to be up but instead it would be the opposite direction. Some reported winning a match and going from page 2 to 324.
Class Changes
Devoted Cleric’s Astral Shield has been modified to reduce its uptime. Currently it is possible to reach a 100% uptime. This is outside the desired level of strength for this particular ability and has cascading effects on the overall survivability of a group in both of PvE and PvP. With that in mind we have made the following changes to Astral Shield:
Potion Changes
We have also addressed a longstanding issue with players being able to obtain an excessive amount of buffs from consumables. This change was not made specifically with PvP in mind, however, as it affects PvP, I will be outlining the changes here. Full details will be available in the preview patch notes.
If a player has a buff from a category, and then uses something else in that category, the old buff goes away and is replaced by the new buff regardless of the buff’s strength.
There are a few buffs that live outside of these rules due to their narrow focus:
Mark Enchantments
In preparation for module 12B’s debut we thought we would break down all of the great PvP changes coming your way. Please keep in mind that we plan to continue making additional adjustments in the future, and these are merely the adjustments we have planned for the upcoming module.
Please take some time to digest these changes and give us feedback. That feedback may help shape our plans for future changes. Now lets get to the meat of this post.
Tenacity Rework
After seriously examining tenacity and how it affects the barrier to entry in PvP, we have removed the tenacity stat from the game altogether. In accordance with this change we have added a visible buff that will be applied to everyone when entering a PvP area. This buff grants each player the following modifiers:- 60% armor pen reduction
- 40% critical severity mitigation
- 40% damage mitigation
- 50% reduction in healing from all sources (Direct heals, HOTs, Lifesteal, etc.)
(Please note that this reduction kicks in if you have been hit within the last 10 seconds. We want to make sure that out of combat healing is not affected.)
With that out of the way let’s focus on what you really want to know, what happens with the tenacity on PvP gear? We have redistributed the tenacity stat into stats already on the equipment or replaced it outright.
- In the case of epic PvP gear the points distributed to tenacity were applied to other stats that already existed on the item.
- For non-epic PvP gear, tenacity has been replaced with Hit Points.
- Item sets that granted tenacity have been changed to power.
PvP Item Scaling
With tenacity gone, we still want to make sure PvP equipment is competitive or superior to similar PvE equipment in PvP. As such, endgame PvP equipment will now receive an item level boost when in a PvP area. When looking at the tooltip on a piece of PvP gear you will now notice some additional text on the item level row.The level in the parenthetical is the item level that the gear will be raised to when in a PvP area. To compensate for this scaling of item levels the base values for certain PvP gear has been reduced. The reasoning behind this is to continue to support the paradigm of equipment earned from PvE sources remaining the most effective for that activity. In either case strong PvP gear should become more viable in PvE, and vice versa.
Adjusted iLevel per set:
| Set | PvE | PvP |
|---|---|---|
| Strategist | 450 | 510 |
| Prestige | 420 | 480 |
| Ele Lionsmane | 410 | 470 |
| Warborn | 400 | 460 |
| Lionsmane | 400 | 460 |
| Ele Burning | 400 | 460 |
| Company PvP | 400 | 460 |
| Burning | 390 | 450 |
| Grim | 380 | 440 |
| Battlefield | 310 | 370 |
CC Diminishing Returns
In further efforts to address some of the issues in PvP, we have added diminishing returns to control effects in PvP. Any powers that have a control element will incur a 15 second diminishing returns effect on the target that will reduce the overall effectiveness of any additional control effects applied to that same target.This effect can stack up to 4 times with each stack further reducing the duration of control effects by 25%, eventually rendering them ineffective. Each stack is independent meaning that each time a player is hit they gain a separate stack that starts its own timer. If at any time you have all 4 stacks then you will be immune to control effects for the length of your oldest stack.
Rewards
- A new set of PvP gear has been added to Kyrian Foss in the Trade of Blades. Pay him a visit and examine the Strategist gear set.
Strongholds PvP
- The weekly reward “cache of the fallen” has been removed as a reward for winning stronghold PvP matches. Its contents are now a part of a new weekly quest.
- A new weekly quest has been added for participating in Stronghold PvP.
- Quest Name: Storming the Castle
- Location: Master of Coins within your stronghold
- Quest Rewards:
- 1x Major Influence Voucher
- 4500x Rough AD
- 1x Blood Ruby
- 25x Forgotten Totems
- 100x Chultan Riches
(The campaign currency rewards will be adjusted as new campaigns are introduced offering another avenue for currency gain.)
Solo PvP Queue
After the success of the temporary solo PvP queue we have decided to make it a permanent feature with the release of module 12B. Solo queues will be available for level 70 domination only.Misc. Bug fixes and Tuning
While the information above highlights the big changes there were a few other impactful bug fixes and adjustments made to help improve the overall PvP experience.Leadboards
Fixed the leaderboard ranking bug where players would see drastic shifts in placement after a match. This was very noticeable when you won a match and expected any movement to be up but instead it would be the opposite direction. Some reported winning a match and going from page 2 to 324.
Class Changes
Devoted Cleric’s Astral Shield has been modified to reduce its uptime. Currently it is possible to reach a 100% uptime. This is outside the desired level of strength for this particular ability and has cascading effects on the overall survivability of a group in both of PvE and PvP. With that in mind we have made the following changes to Astral Shield:
- Duration reduced from 10 seconds down to 8 seconds.
- Damage absorption for empowered Astral Shield changed from 3% per stack to 1% per stack in PvP only.
Potion Changes
We have also addressed a longstanding issue with players being able to obtain an excessive amount of buffs from consumables. This change was not made specifically with PvP in mind, however, as it affects PvP, I will be outlining the changes here. Full details will be available in the preview patch notes.
- Potion: Includes alchemy potions, and most misc. game potions. (Those that had "elixir" in their names have had it replaced with "potion".)
- Elixir: Includes the invocation potions, and a few other "super" potions that are hard/expensive to get but have big effects (e.g., Potion of Heroism, now renamed to Elixir of Heroism).
- Stronghold Food
- Event Food
- Invocation
- Reusable Item: Includes items like Tymora's Lucky Coin or Adorable Pocket Pet
- Non-food Event
Almost all items that give 5+ minute buffs are grouped into one of 7 categories.
If a player has a buff from a category, and then uses something else in that category, the old buff goes away and is replaced by the new buff regardless of the buff’s strength.
There are a few buffs that live outside of these rules due to their narrow focus:
- Potion of Dragon Slaying
- Scroll of Protection from Dragon Slaying
- Shard of Permafrost
- Everfrost Resist Potions
Mark Enchantments
- Stamina and AP Drain have had an internal cooldown added to them.
- Added an internal cooldown of 0.5 seconds for both ranks of Stamina Drain.
- Added an internal cooldown of 5 seconds for both ranks of AP Drain.
Additional Notes
Some specific things we ask you to keep an eye on would be:- Any feedback related to the distribution of stats and the functionality of the PvP buff.
- Remember that the healing reduction kicks in if you have been hit within the last 10 seconds.
- We especially need to find any heals that are not abiding by the reduction in healing rule.
- Feedback on how the item level scaling feels.
- Any ability that has a control effect but is not triggering diminishing returns. (Any ability intended to bypass this feature will say so on the power description.)
Post edited by sgrantdev#8718 on
3
Comments
Do you plan to remove "critical severity mitigation" completely? OR tone it down.
Please explain the relationships between CC Diminishing Returns and CC Resistance. Unofficial thread: PVP Changes on Preview: CC Immunity Issues
Dead🔪Also I think you wrote that a bit weird. The in-game effect and tooltip says "players take 40% less damage" but you wrote "60% damage mitigation" ... same with critical severity.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
How do the specific changes to drain wards affect your thoughts?
Please respect that people will have different experiences and opinions.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Very serious question. At this point, how bad would removing both drains and wards be? While you can't unring a bell, people who obtained them first have had ages to troll with them, or to have attempted to position themselves as too honorable to stoop to it. People who had access via alliances have had slightly less time. People who are still catching up, are they more harmed by removing the items, or is this just taking away an avenue to be vindictive against people even more disadvantaged than you were?
Sometimes, if you make a mistake, the best course of action is to admit that and undo it to the best of your ability, not dig in deeper.
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Wow guys actual rewards .... did I read correctly Blood ruby !!!! that should bring all the afkers lol : D
also materials to make keys very very nice ...It nice to see good participation rewards guaranteed and much better then pve ones even : D
might i suggest you add random drops to pvp/ strongholds/ or guantelgrym (gg) and /or use glory to purchase . to upgrade our enchants/wepon/armor to 13 /14 as part of the reward table and as an additional way to earn these special unparalleded marks(aside from ONE pve dungeon in the whole game , just like you added campaign loot to pvp rewards ) and also as an additional revenue stream for you guys : d this will boost participation tenfold
are you going to finally remove the pets from stronghold pvp dude ? if not it is a bugged lag fest
we cant have smooth fast action pvp on that huge map bro with pets perhaps in internal testing it is lag free but not for any players ...why are we using boss dps (bondings runstone pets etc ) to fight players especially since tenacity has been reduced therefore damage increased ...
do CC immunity stacks fall off right away if you are out of combat ?
i dont like how this new cc immunity works the duration should be much shorter with more stack increments then 4 (25-50-75-100
maybe the cc immune stacks need to be independent and kept separate for all attacking classes
allowing classes that are arrive / reinforcing / coordinating to land thier combos
and not arrive at someone who is already "CC WARMED UP " for lack of a better term
if its 1 v 1 ya then the dimishing cc kicks in but if someone new arrive should they not be allowed to attack / overwhelm the opponent without thier Cc failing nor should the opponent be immune simply cause he was fighting someone else?
some one should die 2 / 3 v 1 and cc imunity stacks should be counted separately for every attacker CC o3 v 1 you should die in less then 30 seconds for any match to have transitions and being competive
from the attackers view
so basically you know that if you enter a 2 v 1 after killing someone / engaging someone else ..you will be cc imune /
from the opposite/defenders view
if someone interupts your 1 v 1 you cant cc or do anything to stop him? when you were not even attacking him before.. ?why should they (the new person arriving ) need help with cc immunity then ( by yours being reduced ) you were not spam power attacking him after all so why should they benefit.. that does not seem to be the design goal here
kinda like what long cooldowns on any powers were meant to do / be in earlier mods a stop to spamming
\
i think all cooldown in pvp need to be doubled and the recovery stat curve adjusted to stop overstacking recovery to twart any attempt to nullify or counter the cooldown nerf
also maybe an interface floating object or tool bar letting player know visually when someone/ them is at max immunity stacks so that you can use some strategy
P.S you need to fix the matchmaking bracketing system already dude many forum posts have been dedicated to it ... or bring back the neverwinter combat league or bear bones pvp or something
P.ss they way it is now a friend on the opposing team can deliberately pump up your cc resistance so you can go troll and kill someone else ... or a new meta will be born to hunt powers/ deliberatly walk into to give you cc resistance then target clear ...player will be kick from match using the wrong build or powers that are actually buffing enemies Cc resistance
a micro ccs dazes stuns are not equivalent to interrupt cc or prone cc maybe each cc type should be 1% 5% 10% 25% for example depending on strengh ... that way you dont have to examine each individual class power for balanace that may be broken / give them or team members a disadvantage to to auto Cc imuning someone instantly the your friend cant cc chain even once
a few little hit from some micro paltry defensive power that hardy does anything Cc wise should not make someone cc immune
that why i think CC resist stack should be separate/fall off for every attacker and not be cumulative based on all attackers with only the lowest or highest CC value being used depending on your balance consideration so you are not adding the 2 cc resist together from both attacker only the lowest or highest CC value depending if they are resisting a duration/effect and from who
this whole cc resistance/ stun lock / spam fiasco quite frankly seems like a band aid for just increasing the cooldown on encounters and dailies and frequencies
Pvp already has healing depression there should be encounter and daily suppression as well
what was the design goal for adding this Cc resistance scalling exactly based on ? what type of complaints / feedback
I appreciate you trying to introduce new pvp equipment to try and shake up the meta a bit
can you please try and sneak in 1 new map : D we know they are ready / it was already mentioned in a dev stream
For example feats like Severe Reaction triggers the CC diminishing returns.
One oppressive force triggers it 100%
Repel 50%
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
NO
Please say this is a Typo why would you do this these are defensive enchanments
WE WANT THESE AND DRAINS / WARDS REMOVED FROM THE GAME
what did you do to Balance the drains where is thier internal cool down ?
are you perhaps confusing drains with wards ?
then all this work to balance PVP then you mess with the wards that protect from ap and stamina drain /
break classes abilities to move turning them into target dummies drain are skilless and promote toxic game play .. yet you add CC return so that players are not stuck and can move LOL lol to adress complaints about being perma lock ... newflash the ap/ stamina drains permalock certain classes and they cant use any defensive abilities
there is no strategy in your pvp GETTING DRAINED by random RNG of class abilities and dailies willy nilly dude ..ake a look at the ring of natural order that never made it into the game ..BROKEN it broke core class abilities ..
"Wards
Stamina and AP Drain wards have had an internal cooldown added to them.
Added an internal cooldown of 0.5 seconds for both ranks of Stamina Drain wards.
Added an internal cooldown of 5 seconds for both ranks of AP Drain wards.{"
when we said we wanted less dailies spam in pvp it was not due to the fact that we wanted drains buffed
to accomplish this sir you will not find much of any feedback in the entire forums supporting your drains and wards in this game ..certain player abilities also mutiproc them despite you guy attempting to balance them once (the drains )
.you gave base tenacity to everyone to even the pvp/pve gap/ playing fields so an average joe can Q without messing around with his gear too much... hint hint not by being forced to slot wards which
dont allow or promote any diversity to use any other overload types in your game
now you mess with drains and wards which some people dont have access to in smaller guild dude WHY ? to break people builds so they cant use their dailies ? so they get ap stamina drained in the new revamped strongholds you are trying to introduce and never come back ? or simply afk it hoping thier side wins ?
strongholds has been a ghost town for many mods due to pets and lag and pvp balance and no rewards
do you want to keep it that way by reintroducing drains and broken hampster game mechanics again ?
Is it possible to add one more pvp weekly quest for GG pvp? This will help guildless folks better as they have no access to SH pvp. Also 10v10 is much more likely to occur than 20v20. There is a chance SH pvp still remain dead even after mod 12b launch but i think GG pvp is much more easier to organise. This may also helps those people joined post mod 3 to unlock pvp campaign. Please consider to revive GG pvp before SH pvp, TY.
1. HR's Trapper tree is DEAD this is something to begin with. Trapper tree is meant to be more or less controller class and with this changes control is totally negated and being useless since an enemy has “4 stacks” almost all the time. In the video it shows that when a trapper starts his normal rotation, an enemy gets full immunity and 4 stacks never lose themselves. This changes making this tree almost useless. Now Trapper has no damage nor CC.
2. GF. Weird changes to this class overall. Control is either working or not. Control resist is not working on Crescendo at all whatsoever unless there is 4x stacks (which is full immunity).Does it make sense?
3. TR. IS the most insane pvp class before and after this changes. Tr’s in general got least affected by this changes for some reason, therefore TR class got even more powerful then before.
- Smoke Bomb (For its full duration) applies only 1 (ONE) stack of control. Is this a joke or what?
- Courage Breaker is the biggest joke. It DOES NOT apply control stacks at all as well as if you have 4 stacks on you (Being control immune) Courage Breaker still could be applied thus ignoring all of the implemented changes to the control effects.
- When fighting TR – immune control is almost non stackable while CB and SB are there all the time … Pls take a look at this class more deeply. It needs to be changed accordingly.
4. CW – in short? Its DEAD. Most of the wizards skills apply full 4 stacks in the SHORTEST duration of the time AOE wise (comparing to Tr’s bomb) thus making this class almost equal to trapper.
To sum it up: While in a fight, stacks are being generated very quickly and there is almost no control because of the immunity mechanic which is more or less broken. The only classes that are almost non effected are TR’s and GF’s.
Current state of the control resistance/immunity that is being deployed on the test server is totally out of the control and will lead to nowhere. It makes things worse.
Old system wasn’t perfect but imho was better, it only required particular classes and their skills to be fixed/toned down.
You need to make something with kicks from PvP. Cuz very often players kick other players until they have a strong team.
@sgrantdev#8718
Or just return old system with rebalancing of existing skills... it will be better.
this whole CC pvp addon thing is needless complicated and hampster
.
Tenacity values:
I think an increase across the board would be good. Yes the avarage was 40% before, but that avarage was determined by the soft cap which was introduced very long time ago. Players have gotten a lot stronger since then, while the survivability trough tenacity remained the same. I think everyone dying a bit slower and having more chance to counter would make pvp more fun. Healing might have to be nerfed even more to compensate from this survivability increase, however.
PvP Items:
Several points on that: Firstly, I think the IL difference between PvP and PvE mode of these items are too high. A 30 IL difference would have been enough to differentiate between best PvP and PvE sets, since they both have their unique bonuses for different situations too. As it stands, best PvE armor in PvP is only 10 IL worse than PvP sets, whereas best PvP set is 50 IL worse than PvE sets in PvE.
Second, some addition of PvP rings would be nice. As far as I've seen, none of the tenacity rings got the same treatment PvP gear got.
Lastly, the effect of the new Soul Sight Crystal artifact should be reduced in PvP, as well as some of the strategist gear set effects. Combined with other effects, these make you deal insane amount of damage at times. I think most would agree getting one shotted is no fun.
Skills:
Like others have pointed out, there are some skills that behave in a non-ideal way with CC diminishing returns. I'd like to mention once more that Courage Breaker ignoring CC immunity is ridiculously strong. This still leaves one class with the ability to permanently CC others.
PvP Rewards:
It is nice that you're adding rewards for Stronghold PvP, but there are so many things broken with it that I think it would better be left alone until it can get a proper overhaul.
Rewards for other PvP modes would be nice, however. Currently, there still isn't much reward for doing domination PvP once you get the new armor. If you added something like the new Ultimate Marks of Potency as a reward for PvP, like for a lot glory and seals, that would encourage more PvErs to try out PvP.
Solo Queue:
I haven't tested this in preview, but when it was on Live for testing, it was still easy to manipulate by queueing with your friends at the same time. That really defeats the purpose of it. If teams could be randomized after everyone accepts, that would be nice.
Wards: Why? Just why? Drains are Universally despised by the PVP community (even on PS), why are you nerfing the hard counter to them? It makes 0 sense.
Maps: Any word on the new map modes? We were told that they're ready to go and we were told that they would be out for 12b. Will we be seeing them or are they being delayed for another mod?
Match Making: Any word on a fix to the match making? I'm guessing this is why the leaderboard is finally being fixed, but will be be getting proper "bracketing"?
My question - "it is?" Because some people told that it works like currently.
Many people love the lionsmane visuals but Siege is a pain, even with runestones and enchants rework companions will still be a major factor of imbalance, and probably also very long queue times since with the time i put in siege i would do probably 3 times eTos for example. One thing that would fix this problem would be increased rewards during an hour for example, but that would drag many unexperient pvp players, so i suggest something like "During siege hour you have a chance to drop a random piece of pvp gear", or "During siege hour you'll receive 10 extra seals of triumph for participating on siege even that don't count towards dailly cap"
About Drains:
The community mentality has formed and it will be hard to dispel, many people are just new born babies to NWO and they already react like "Drains, lol, you can't play", the word drain is automatically associated with bad player/unfair pvp/troll. And in part it is true, most builds rely on dailies to burst damage or some sort of combo, taking that from them is lowering their chances of winning a battle a lot. I just tried stamina and AP drains, stamina drain is reasonable, ap drain is not, HR's for example can take near 20% of other player AP every 5 seconds easily because of so high AP regeneration and dailies that don't expend the totality of the AP bar.
There is a saying in my country that goes by "What the eyes don't see the heart doesn't feel" if drains are to be something, they need to be nerfed to a minimum so every player consider them acceptable and mentality slowly changes, and it could be done by giving something else to they player that they enemies eyes wouldn't see, something like : "AP drain rank 2: When you use a daily you drain 10% of the AP expend to your enemy into you(limited to 1 target in AOE dailies)".
Quick comments
1. Please fix the SH Siege q. Even when we all wanted to use it, you had to solo q and you would be unable to determine teams on each side. It is great to see it get some love and (as a former alpha tester) I think it has a lot of potential particularly with the proposed changes. But you need to make it easy for people to get in and to do so cooperatively with people who would like. Perhaps the system developed for private pvp can be adapted her where guilds and alliances can challenge each other, fill up a roster and q?
2. I welcome the tenacity change. While many of us have more tenacity than that, I think actually reducing it slightly will help make fights more exciting. Opening the door to newbie PVErs and still keeping pvp gear special in pvp is a good move.
3. Now that we're rid of tenacity and item levels take into account everything - please please introduce Item Level brackets. Even if you start with a bracket for 12.5k and above I think this will help enormously to get players to start PVPing and enjoy it before being crushed by those who have been gathering IL for years. Alternatively the q should match people so that each team as close as possible total item level, but that feels like unnecessary work.
4. CC Diminishing Returns - I think this is a good idea in principle but if so - you need to allow those who are doing CC the chance to still be effective, i.e. the first time you use it needs to be felt. Otherwise Trapper HR, CW (Oppressor) etc. will have no place.
5. There are a lot of other issues in PVP covered fully elsewhere that are ruining the fun (and have kept me out of it most recently). Please make fixing those a priority as hopefully these changes will bring lots of new faces in who should get a good impression.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁