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Neverwinter Mechanics 101 - RI, Mark Mechanics and Bronzewood
ralexinor
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
Original post: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17036030/mod6/mechanics/RI-Mark-Bronze.txt
Neverwinter Mechanics 101 - RI, Mark Mechanics and Bronzewood
Let's define two basic types of Resistance Ignored:
Soft RI - includes RI from Armor Penetration stat, and RI from Ability Scores. Anything that adds to the "Resistance Ignored" on character sheet, basically.
Hard RI - linear DR reductions, such as GF/GWF Mark mechanic, OP Vow/Bane and Bronzewood.
Soft RI generally only reduces character sheet DR, and does not affect Tenacity DR/Critical Strike Resistance or Negation.
Hard RI affects the Overall Damage Resistance (ODR). This is basically the total of your Tenacity DR, Tenacity Crit DR, Negation and DR. Other buffs that add to this total are probably also included.
****************
Non-Crit effectiveness on a squishy BiS class
*NOTE: the following situation is with no soft RI stacking, that is, no stacking to get over the 80% Armor Penetration Resistance cap. So the following test is done with no Armor Penetration.
Let's take a squishy target, a Hunter Ranger with 40% Tenacity, 10 stacks of Negation (30%) and 10% base DR. The ODR of this character is 80%. Tenacity Armor Penetration Resistance (APR) is 80%.
Base effectiveness (% of original damage done) on this toon, by default, is 20% (100-80). So let's say someone does base 100k damage:
Formula: [BASE DAMAGE] * (1 - DR)
Damage taken by HR: 100000 * (1 - 0.8) = 20000 damage, which is 20% of the original damage.
Let's take an Guardian Fighter with 50% Soft RI (character sheet RI). The GF Marks the HR. Because Mark is 20% Hard RI, and hence affects the ODR, the formula then becomes:
Formula: [BASE DAMAGE] * (1 - DR + [Hard RI])
Damage taken by HR after Mark: 100000 * (1 - 0.8 + 0.2) = 100000 * 0.4 = 40000 damage, which is 40% of the original damage.
This means Mark is a 100% DPS increase.
Note that Soft RI does NOT pass through this still because it's affected by APR still. There is nothing in the game atm that will affect the value of APR, or Tenacity as a stat in general (Tenacity itself, not the individual counters like Tenacity DR and Tenacity Crit DR).
Let's say the GF equips a Perfect+ Bronzewood, which is 16% Hard RI. This is additive to Mark, and any other Hard RI. Total Hard RI becomes 20 + 16 = 36%.
Formula: [BASE DAMAGE] * (1 - DR + [Hard RI])
Damage taken by HR after Mark and Bronzewood: 100000 * (1 - 0.8 + 0.36) = 100000 * 0.56 = 56000 damage, which is 56% of the original damage.
This means Bronzewood is a 40% DPS increase with Mark.
Let's say we attack the HR with no Mark, just Bronzewood.
Formula: [BASE DAMAGE] * (1 - DR + [Hard RI])
Damage taken by HR after Bronzewood: 100000 * (1 - 0.8 + 0.16) = 100000 * 0.36 = 36000 damage, which is 36% of the original damage.
This means Bronzewood is a 80% DPS increase without Mark.
--
Let's recalculate with enough Soft RI to mitigate all the HR's DR. GF has 90% RI, which is 10% after APR.
HR ODR is now 70%.
Without Mark/Bronzewood: 100000 * (1 - 0.7) = 30000 damage, which is 30% of the original damage. This is a 50% damage increase.
With Mark only: 100000 * (1 - 0.7 + 0.2) = 50000 damage, which is 50% of the original damage. This is a 150% DPS increase from no Mark/Bronzewood, and a 25% damage increase from just Mark.
With Bronzewood only: 100000 * (1 - 0.7 + 0.16) = 46000 damage, which is 46% of the original damage. This is a 130% DPS increase from no Mark/Bronzewood, and a 15% DPS increase from just Bronzewood.
With Mark/Bronzewood: 100000 * (1 - 0.7 + 0.36) = 66000 damage, which is 66% of the original damage. This is a 230% damage increase from no Mark/Bronzewood, and a 17.8% DPS increase from Bronzewood/Mark.
************************************
Crit effectiveness on a BiS squishy target
Tenacity Critical Strike Resistance is a flat additive +DR% bonus. BiS targets have 40% tenacity (40.2% to be exact, but let's just say 40% for the maths).
Remember, the ODR for a target on a critical hit will be:
[TENACITY DR] + [TENACITY CRIT DR] + [BASE DR] + [NEGATION]
Let's say we take a HR with 40% Tenacity, 10 stacks of Negation (30%) and 10% DR. APR is 80%.
ODR for this is 40 + 40 + 10 + 30 = 120%.
In order to see any increase in damage, we have to decrease the ODR past 80% (80% is the DR cap). So basically, our base damage increase will be 1% for every 1% over 40% RI.
Mark: 20%
Bronzewood: 16%
Mark and Bronzewood total to 36% Hard RI, which is still below the 40% RI we need. This means, on a crit, without Armor Penetration stacking, there will be no damage increase from Bronzewood and Mark (either or both).
If we stack some Armor Penetration (Soft RI), since the target has 10% DR, we lower their total ODR to 110% - this means we will need at least 90% Soft RI. This means we need 30% RI before we see a base damage increase.
Mark: 20%
Bronzewood: 16%
So for a total of 36% Hard RI, we will see a 6% damage increase of base damage. This means we will have 26% total effectiveness, which is a 30% damage increase by using Mark and Bronzewood.
Note that, for this case, if you only use one of Mark and Bronzewood instead of both, you will not see a damage increase, as you fail to pass the DR cap threshold.
*********************
Fighting a pug with 20% Tenacity
So there we have an example of a BiS DPS class vs Mark mechanic. What happens when we have a GF fighting a pug, for example?
Hunter Ranger with 20% Tenacity, 10% Damage Resistance.
ODR: 30%
Guardian Fighter waltzes onto the node (or off), using Mark, and an optional Bronzewood.
Soft RI: 50%
The HR has 40% APR from Tenacity, meaning the GF ends up with 10% Soft RI, which does mitigate the HR's DR to 0, meaning they have 20% Tenacity less.
GF Marks the HR. HR's Tenacity is wiped off the face of the Earth.
Effectiveness of all GF attacks: 100%
With Bronzewood: 116%
************************
Fighting a tanky BiS class
There are two GFs in a bar.
GF 1: Hey bro, your sword looks ****.
GF 2: Yeah man, that's because I just pulled it out of your ***.
Audience: *OOOOOOOOOOO* GF FIGHT!
GF 1: What? Come on, you little mother****er, I'll show you!
GF 2: Bring it on, son.
GF 1 has 40% Tenacity, 35% Damage Resistance and Negation (30%). ODR: 105%
GF 2 has 50% RI.
GF 2 hits GF 1 for 100k non-crit damage, after Marking him (20% Hard RI). ODR of GF 1 is now 85%.
Damage on GF 1 with Mark: 100000 * (1 - 0.8) = 100000 * 0.2 = 20000 damage, which is 20% of the original damage, because Mark failed to pass the 80% ODR threshold.
GF 2 slots Bronzewood, and hits GF 1 again for 100k non-crit damage, after Marking him, and procing Bronzewood. ODR of GF 1 is now 105 - 36 = 69% ODR.
Damage on GF 1 with Mark and Bronzewood: 100000 * (1 - 0.69) = 100000 * 0.31 = 31000 damage, which is 31% of the original damage.
Bronzewood has increased the DPS of GF 2 by 55%.
Let's calculate this again as a critical hit.
GF 1 has 40% Tenacity, 40% Tenacity Crit DR, 35% Damage Resistance and Negation (30%). ODR: 145%
GF 2 hits GF 1 for 100k crit damage, after Marking him (20% Hard RI) and using Bronzewood (16%, for a total of 36% Hard RI). ODR of GF 1 is 109%.
Damage on GF 1 with Mark: 100000 * (1 - 0.8) = 100000 * 0.2 = 20000 damage, which is 20% of the original damage, because Mark + Bronzewood failed to pass the 80% ODR threshold.
If we calculate all this again with Armor Penetration, we can say GF 2 has 115% RI, which, after APR, is 35% RI.
Non-crit, GF 1 has 70% ODR.
Damage on GF 1 with Mark, 115% RI and Bronzewood: 100000 * (1 - 0.7 + 0.36) = 100000 * 0.66 = 66000 damage, which is 66% of the original damage.
This is a massive DPS increase of 112%.
Crit, GF 1 has 110% ODR. After hard RI, GF has 74% ODR
Damage on GF 1 with Mark, 115% RI and Bronzewood: 100000 * (1 - 0.74) = 26000 damage, which is 26% of the original damage.
This is a DPS increase of 30%.
Neverwinter Mechanics 101 - RI, Mark Mechanics and Bronzewood
Let's define two basic types of Resistance Ignored:
Soft RI - includes RI from Armor Penetration stat, and RI from Ability Scores. Anything that adds to the "Resistance Ignored" on character sheet, basically.
Hard RI - linear DR reductions, such as GF/GWF Mark mechanic, OP Vow/Bane and Bronzewood.
Soft RI generally only reduces character sheet DR, and does not affect Tenacity DR/Critical Strike Resistance or Negation.
Hard RI affects the Overall Damage Resistance (ODR). This is basically the total of your Tenacity DR, Tenacity Crit DR, Negation and DR. Other buffs that add to this total are probably also included.
****************
Non-Crit effectiveness on a squishy BiS class
*NOTE: the following situation is with no soft RI stacking, that is, no stacking to get over the 80% Armor Penetration Resistance cap. So the following test is done with no Armor Penetration.
Let's take a squishy target, a Hunter Ranger with 40% Tenacity, 10 stacks of Negation (30%) and 10% base DR. The ODR of this character is 80%. Tenacity Armor Penetration Resistance (APR) is 80%.
Base effectiveness (% of original damage done) on this toon, by default, is 20% (100-80). So let's say someone does base 100k damage:
Formula: [BASE DAMAGE] * (1 - DR)
Damage taken by HR: 100000 * (1 - 0.8) = 20000 damage, which is 20% of the original damage.
Let's take an Guardian Fighter with 50% Soft RI (character sheet RI). The GF Marks the HR. Because Mark is 20% Hard RI, and hence affects the ODR, the formula then becomes:
Formula: [BASE DAMAGE] * (1 - DR + [Hard RI])
Damage taken by HR after Mark: 100000 * (1 - 0.8 + 0.2) = 100000 * 0.4 = 40000 damage, which is 40% of the original damage.
This means Mark is a 100% DPS increase.
Note that Soft RI does NOT pass through this still because it's affected by APR still. There is nothing in the game atm that will affect the value of APR, or Tenacity as a stat in general (Tenacity itself, not the individual counters like Tenacity DR and Tenacity Crit DR).
Let's say the GF equips a Perfect+ Bronzewood, which is 16% Hard RI. This is additive to Mark, and any other Hard RI. Total Hard RI becomes 20 + 16 = 36%.
Formula: [BASE DAMAGE] * (1 - DR + [Hard RI])
Damage taken by HR after Mark and Bronzewood: 100000 * (1 - 0.8 + 0.36) = 100000 * 0.56 = 56000 damage, which is 56% of the original damage.
This means Bronzewood is a 40% DPS increase with Mark.
Let's say we attack the HR with no Mark, just Bronzewood.
Formula: [BASE DAMAGE] * (1 - DR + [Hard RI])
Damage taken by HR after Bronzewood: 100000 * (1 - 0.8 + 0.16) = 100000 * 0.36 = 36000 damage, which is 36% of the original damage.
This means Bronzewood is a 80% DPS increase without Mark.
--
Let's recalculate with enough Soft RI to mitigate all the HR's DR. GF has 90% RI, which is 10% after APR.
HR ODR is now 70%.
Without Mark/Bronzewood: 100000 * (1 - 0.7) = 30000 damage, which is 30% of the original damage. This is a 50% damage increase.
With Mark only: 100000 * (1 - 0.7 + 0.2) = 50000 damage, which is 50% of the original damage. This is a 150% DPS increase from no Mark/Bronzewood, and a 25% damage increase from just Mark.
With Bronzewood only: 100000 * (1 - 0.7 + 0.16) = 46000 damage, which is 46% of the original damage. This is a 130% DPS increase from no Mark/Bronzewood, and a 15% DPS increase from just Bronzewood.
With Mark/Bronzewood: 100000 * (1 - 0.7 + 0.36) = 66000 damage, which is 66% of the original damage. This is a 230% damage increase from no Mark/Bronzewood, and a 17.8% DPS increase from Bronzewood/Mark.
************************************
Crit effectiveness on a BiS squishy target
Tenacity Critical Strike Resistance is a flat additive +DR% bonus. BiS targets have 40% tenacity (40.2% to be exact, but let's just say 40% for the maths).
Remember, the ODR for a target on a critical hit will be:
[TENACITY DR] + [TENACITY CRIT DR] + [BASE DR] + [NEGATION]
Let's say we take a HR with 40% Tenacity, 10 stacks of Negation (30%) and 10% DR. APR is 80%.
ODR for this is 40 + 40 + 10 + 30 = 120%.
In order to see any increase in damage, we have to decrease the ODR past 80% (80% is the DR cap). So basically, our base damage increase will be 1% for every 1% over 40% RI.
Mark: 20%
Bronzewood: 16%
Mark and Bronzewood total to 36% Hard RI, which is still below the 40% RI we need. This means, on a crit, without Armor Penetration stacking, there will be no damage increase from Bronzewood and Mark (either or both).
If we stack some Armor Penetration (Soft RI), since the target has 10% DR, we lower their total ODR to 110% - this means we will need at least 90% Soft RI. This means we need 30% RI before we see a base damage increase.
Mark: 20%
Bronzewood: 16%
So for a total of 36% Hard RI, we will see a 6% damage increase of base damage. This means we will have 26% total effectiveness, which is a 30% damage increase by using Mark and Bronzewood.
Note that, for this case, if you only use one of Mark and Bronzewood instead of both, you will not see a damage increase, as you fail to pass the DR cap threshold.
*********************
Fighting a pug with 20% Tenacity
So there we have an example of a BiS DPS class vs Mark mechanic. What happens when we have a GF fighting a pug, for example?
Hunter Ranger with 20% Tenacity, 10% Damage Resistance.
ODR: 30%
Guardian Fighter waltzes onto the node (or off), using Mark, and an optional Bronzewood.
Soft RI: 50%
The HR has 40% APR from Tenacity, meaning the GF ends up with 10% Soft RI, which does mitigate the HR's DR to 0, meaning they have 20% Tenacity less.
GF Marks the HR. HR's Tenacity is wiped off the face of the Earth.
Effectiveness of all GF attacks: 100%
With Bronzewood: 116%
************************
Fighting a tanky BiS class
There are two GFs in a bar.
GF 1: Hey bro, your sword looks ****.
GF 2: Yeah man, that's because I just pulled it out of your ***.
Audience: *OOOOOOOOOOO* GF FIGHT!
GF 1: What? Come on, you little mother****er, I'll show you!
GF 2: Bring it on, son.
GF 1 has 40% Tenacity, 35% Damage Resistance and Negation (30%). ODR: 105%
GF 2 has 50% RI.
GF 2 hits GF 1 for 100k non-crit damage, after Marking him (20% Hard RI). ODR of GF 1 is now 85%.
Damage on GF 1 with Mark: 100000 * (1 - 0.8) = 100000 * 0.2 = 20000 damage, which is 20% of the original damage, because Mark failed to pass the 80% ODR threshold.
GF 2 slots Bronzewood, and hits GF 1 again for 100k non-crit damage, after Marking him, and procing Bronzewood. ODR of GF 1 is now 105 - 36 = 69% ODR.
Damage on GF 1 with Mark and Bronzewood: 100000 * (1 - 0.69) = 100000 * 0.31 = 31000 damage, which is 31% of the original damage.
Bronzewood has increased the DPS of GF 2 by 55%.
Let's calculate this again as a critical hit.
GF 1 has 40% Tenacity, 40% Tenacity Crit DR, 35% Damage Resistance and Negation (30%). ODR: 145%
GF 2 hits GF 1 for 100k crit damage, after Marking him (20% Hard RI) and using Bronzewood (16%, for a total of 36% Hard RI). ODR of GF 1 is 109%.
Damage on GF 1 with Mark: 100000 * (1 - 0.8) = 100000 * 0.2 = 20000 damage, which is 20% of the original damage, because Mark + Bronzewood failed to pass the 80% ODR threshold.
If we calculate all this again with Armor Penetration, we can say GF 2 has 115% RI, which, after APR, is 35% RI.
Non-crit, GF 1 has 70% ODR.
Damage on GF 1 with Mark, 115% RI and Bronzewood: 100000 * (1 - 0.7 + 0.36) = 100000 * 0.66 = 66000 damage, which is 66% of the original damage.
This is a massive DPS increase of 112%.
Crit, GF 1 has 110% ODR. After hard RI, GF has 74% ODR
Damage on GF 1 with Mark, 115% RI and Bronzewood: 100000 * (1 - 0.74) = 26000 damage, which is 26% of the original damage.
This is a DPS increase of 30%.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
Do you realy think mark is overpowered in this company? o.O
Steel and Magic
In light on latest changes this tab mechanic starts to go in line with others but i would give it away for unstopable any time.
Steel and Magic
Great explanation ralexinor.
HR has nothing to put on this table really.
Threatening Rush is 8% DR Ignore and 15% CA.CA s do not stack though.
I am not familiar with GWF's Marks.
Overall the -taken out of Ralexinor content- argument that Mark is a 100% damage buff is tragic,silly and hillarious.
Cws crying hard for one -if not the-weakest and most complained ever Tab mechanic of NW.CW whining and crying is bottomless ,has reached abysmal levels.Pure tragedy.
I am in despair.
Then look at it this way. On a 80% DR target, you end up with 20% of the base damage, i.e. 100k will deal 20k. With mark, you deal 40% of base damage, i.e 40k damage. That's double damage = 100% more damage.
Also Threatening Rush for GFs gives 20% RI when used without tab, and 12% when used together.
Look...this is not a good way of thinking.You set up a batlle encounter ,as it suits you.You set up the numbers ,tenacity etc.
And then you manipulate the numbers to end up in the +100% damage increase.
This is plain wrong.
Any class against another can do the same.Set up an battle encounter,wher int he end,a used power/feat/daily will do +100% damage.
Basically you asked for a nerf to a mechanic that is the most underrated and hated by Gfs in NW history.
I don't know if that is saying something to you.
If i had the courage to count the threads in the last two years of GFs that wanted to change TAb Mark to something else,i would need a week.
As for TRush:I am sure that in the patch notes just prior to mod3(GF overhaul) GMC stated that Tab Mark is 20% and threatening rush 8%.Never tested TRush though cause i am a SM.But GMC scope was to be at 8%.
So ralexinor ,your guildie at 7k Gs Scrubs is right?Are you in or against the proposed nerf of the class you play?cause your post is ambiguitous.
You agree that is +100% (is not) and then you say it is normal.
the other is a result of a set up situation where you
a)assume the target wears T negation.
b)assume that all stacks are up.
c)assume that he is not debuffed by terror ,PF ,Bronzewood or feytouched.
d)assume that in the spesific sec the Gf will mark him exactly when target is at 80% cap.
e)assume that Tab RI is not countered by tenacity.Did you tested it?I am not sure if it is indeed as you stated.I need to test.
f)Wrongly you add up tenacity with normal DR.Tenacity is applied after DR .
i think a third party observer would say that you hypothetize too much ,and then indirectly ask for a nerf.
PS:The whole situation of the thread and the people involved remind me of former Enemy Team guild member's posting.
I also remembered King Calous.
Whoever understood,understood.
I tend to look at it this that way: T Negation is shi.tty broken
30% hard DR in case of over all damage (normal and crit), that can´t be penetrated by armor penetration is totally <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and indicates one thing
---> poor coding and poor design of an enchant, that even if it would be affected by Arp is far to high by 30%
btw I do not know lots of people that have >90% armor penetration
having a tank with 40% DR you need 120% arp to get him down to 70%?
btw how does plaguefire work in this case? halfes the DR from 40% to about 22%, so the only effect will be in case you are stacking 3 debuffs, wich is hard enough, you can deminish his DR to 70% with "only stacking 102%Arp"? crappy BS
arp in this case is worth nothing, not a cent
and as I can see the fact that some do not like the mark from GF since mod 1, in this calculation you are the big winner, gratulation (honestly) take it as a bonus for suffering 5 mods
mark bypasses Tenacity in short, bronzewood too if this is correct
a) I took a look at lots of player and guess what, tons of them wear T Negation
b) the stacks are up very quick
c) terror and plaguefire do not mitigate this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> i assume, so the 70% DR are fix in PVP, on top terrror and plaguefire only can scratch at the 10% soft DR that is left, and to go there you have to debuff the target very very hard in case its a OP, GF, GWF (it is impossible to get them under 80% since they have >20% DR from the class themself, so in this scenario you can throw the terror or plaguefire out of the window right?
d) just take in account that the negation incahnt gives you a near permanent 30% shield
e) i thought he tested it?
f) not sure what you ment, but the fact taht a squish CW or warlock can get at the DR cap by wearing T Negation, and 70% Resistance against all damage is fix, should indicate that this enchant is broken
1) I don't care about fighting 20% tenacity 2k ilvl pugs.
2) tenacity is additive right now. It contributes additively to your existing DR. I've done the testing.
3) this is not hypothesis, this has been done through testing.
4) even at lower dr levels, mark is a substantial boost, because of tenacity and base dr. The minimum odr people have at max gear is 50%, meaning 50% effectiveness. Mark adds another 20%, which is still a substantial boost of around 40% damage. But assuming bis gear, you will nearly always fight people at 80% or more dr.
5) mark goes through tenacity. I don't make these claims without testing extensively.
I'm not asking for a nerf. If it makes you feel better, I'll even remove the bottom line part from my original post. This is simply here to help people understand the mechanics. There are several strong builds a gf can make based off this.
a) Negation is the most common enchant among PvPers
b) 10 stacks is incredibly easy to get in PvP
c) terror, pf only debuff defense which doesn't factor in much anyways, feytouched doesn't debuff DR and bronzewood is the figure of this thread.
d) 80% DR is incredibly easy to achieve now and GF can spam marks.
e) It's not countered by tenacity.
f) Have you read forum the past week? Tenacity DR is additive with normal DR since last patch.
GF can stack all 3.
Tr complaining about the tab mechanic of another class.
this thread should speak about the real problem --->T Negtion, but since all of you have it, noone wants to lose it, thats human
so we learend that plaguefire and terror are worthless against T-negated targets, because you will get them only debuffed to about 75%, because they do not bypass T negation?
and we learned that bronzewood will help a bit against squishy classes (CW, SW, Hunter, TR) wearing T-Negation getting them down to about 64% DR in case they have +/-10% DR from class,
not wearing T-Negation these squishy classes also get far a better debuff from bronzewood than from plaguefire and Terror, since 45% from 10 is 4,5% ---meeeehh, did someone tested this?
against OP and GF wearing T-Negation bronzewood/plaguefire and Terror doesn´t do anything, cause effecting only the soft DR?
only advatage for plaguefire and terror vs. bronzewood would be against classes with >36% DR (Op/GF) not wearing T negation, and only if you can stack plaguefire 3 time f.e. (DC can´t, to slow in casting, GWF can normally)
on top bronzewood debuff can be set on different targets, plaguefire not by sure, the stacks fade away in seconds, and terror i do not know,but I fear its the same
plaguefire/terror are single target PVE enchants in this calculation that work good on bosses with high DR, thats it
bronzewood seems to be underestimated.... if T Negation counted as "soft DR" things would look different i guess
ok lets talk about the next useless enchant i have on the bank to get rid of
(not seriously)
I play all classes, and I use the 3 Mark build to great success on my GF
so GF is the "Debuff-King" of mod 6, instead of warlock ....curse you all
Steel and Magic
We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
Steel and Magic
Much like the time I came across you in domination I used the wall(on backcap/your homecap) in hotenow to my advantage when using indom on you allowing me to combo you while you were airborne.
WTB Class Reroll please