On that everyone agrees. Even many TR players agree. So why are us TR players forced to re-confirm what's been said in thread like this every time as if its some kind of a mission statement when us TR players were actually the first ones to report to the community how broken easy Sabos are?
Because Cryptic doesn't apparently pay any attention. Or if they do, they don't bother letting us know they hear us, much less that they agree (officially) and we can expect action *at some point* in the future. I mean, most of us get that they can't snap their fingers and get things done... but it would be nice to know that things like this are officially on the list and will definitely be worked on at some point.
...except you guys suck in control since nobody really builds for control, or appreciates how much control you can really dish out.
I've never mentioned it straightly before, but IMO many CW players are simply misled by the amount of DPS the class can do, and so many veterans have made manuals or explanatory posts on how good it is to play a nuke-DPS at the expense of the loss of control, that nobody really even questions if that's all the CW can do.
But of course, that's a story for another thread I guess.
Haha, I said something very similar in another thread earlier today. I happen to have been around when CC was actually necessary - back when 9K GS was awesome and R5s were considered high-end enchants and no one even realized armor and weapon enchants could be "greater" much less "perfect"
Back then, we CWs had to learn control. Power creep then set in, and it became unnecessary. So for a year (if not more) we have a crop of CWs than never needed to learn the controller aspects and were simply ranged strikers. It's understandable because CWs can pump out the DPS for sure, but you're right, many CWs can't control their thumbs into their own backsides, much less control in combat.
I think, though, we're coming full circle though. I mean, seeing Ray of Frost being used in PvP commonly again is a major indication that control is coming back into vogue again.
That said, I've never tried using shield on tab in pvp... having read this thread, I guess I should
Lol yes i play TR to, but i dont see rust making any suggesitions so far, only that it would "break" the class. Well maybe or maybe not, but as i said, piercing + ITC its to good of a combo.
I would be more swayed if the proposed course of action didn't just accentuate extant weaknesses that CWs already experience but also gave some means of regress to address those things. Basically, if you nerf Shield, how will you then make CWs perform better against TRs, HRs and GFs?
A knee-jerk nerf to shield may improve QoL for the GWF--which I'm not saying that it will, being just another case of not seeing past the most obvious probable cause, down into the underlying fundamental issue. I can't suggest a proper nerf to that matter because I don't have all the data.
But if experience serves me, if you change how Shield performs now, that will put the CW at an even worse odds against the TR. By the same token, nerfing piercing damage (which makes life unbearable for CW) would put us at a deadend against DC and OP.
Classes have a natural rock-paper-scissor relationship. Balance should be looked at from the perspective of who will benefit and who will suffer the most.
But if experience serves me, if you change how Shield performs now, that will put the CW at an even worse odds against the TR. By the same token, nerfing piercing damage (which makes life unbearable for CW) would put us at a deadend against DC and OP.
Which is where my suggestion, the "buff the debuffs" comes in.
Increase the average intensity of debuff powers each class has, introduce some new debuff types such as stamina debuff or heal/tempHP debuff, and implant a lot of these into the class currently considered the weakest -- the SW, without increasing their survivability or damage, so SWs continue to function as a relatively frail class in open engagements, but in turn can dish out huge, powerful debuffs to DR and heals/tempHP, so that any "holy tanks" in the vicinity will be debuffed with all the "unholy" stuff a Warlock can dish out -- forcing a zero-sum situation on the DCs and OPs.
If PvP is comprised of damage, defense, buffs, and debuffs, in NW the first three are very high, and yet, the fourth, which is often a crucial balancing factor, remains weak, down to useless/gimmicky levels. Hence, the higher level you go in PvP the more it becomes just a simple, bland fight between the irresistable force vs the immovable object... which is just a fancy way of saying endless stalemate.
We need a debuff-factor that is meaningful in this game, which will turn things into "quite resisitable force" and "quite movable object".
I pretty much agree with macjae.
Seen a BiS CW vs BiS GF duel yesterday in a domination match while waiting for the match to end. At the beginning, it was a head-to-head fight with both toons' HPs barely going down, or going down a bit then refilling. Both negation users.
But in the long run, the GF emerged and won with around 25-30% HP left.
A GWF in TNegation-TFeytouched can be VERY hard to kill too. Seen BiS GWFs with up to 25% LS chance and such setup. You figure how hard those guys can be to kill. Feels very much like Module 2 GWF.
But that's cause of the enchants.
SW is the only class at a clear disadvantage right now.
I think too it's not the survivability but rather how it is achieved that is wrong on CW. Survivability is ok. Ability to passively facetank the damage is just the wrong way.
Back in module 3, playing a CW in PvP was not balanced cause you got strong DPS but the moment a melee focused you, you were almost helpless. Not enough tools to keep distance/ defend, and too many tools for melees to close the gap fast and get in melee range.
So the devs buffed shield but that was the wrong way.
If you tone down Shield, then you must give new tools for CWs to prevent the enemy from closing the gap.
May be a rework of shield to make it a "pulsating push"?
Something like: you "explode shield to push the enemy back 50' on a 180°. Then shield goes on a, let's say, 5s cooldown, during which you cannot release it, then you can release it again. On tab, increases the push to, let's say, 70'.
Or increase number of teleports
In general, i'd replace passive shield DR with a buff to abilities to keep distance.
it barely has to do anything with negation its tenacity + shield + rene capstone heals, even if u nerf negation the outcome ill be the same, CW stays tankiest class in the game.
Jesus christ you are such an idiot... We get it, you dont like cw, and you just want your GWF and TR be able to kill everything without resistance... Negation is the biggest issue in the game currently, and due to the way it works with shield, you get the immortals cws(more or less..). Shield alone is a good defense, but against a player that knows how to play it isnt that big a deal... And yes i am maining a cw, and broke down and a bought a negation enchantment the other day, the difference is HUGE..
I pretty much agree with macjae.
Seen a BiS CW vs BiS GF duel yesterday in a domination match while waiting for the match to end. At the beginning, it was a head-to-head fight with both toons' HPs barely going down, or going down a bit then refilling. Both negation users.
But in the long run, the GF emerged and won with around 25-30% HP left.
A GWF in TNegation-TFeytouched can be VERY hard to kill too. Seen BiS GWFs with up to 25% LS chance and such setup. You figure how hard those guys can be to kill. Feels very much like Module 2 GWF.
But that's cause of the enchants.
SW is the only class at a clear disadvantage right now.
I think too it's not the survivability but rather how it is achieved that is wrong on CW. Survivability is ok. Ability to passively facetank the damage is just the wrong way.
Back in module 3, playing a CW in PvP was not balanced cause you got strong DPS but the moment a melee focused you, you were almost helpless. Not enough tools to keep distance/ defend, and too many tools for melees to close the gap fast and get in melee range.
So the devs buffed shield but that was the wrong way.
If you tone down Shield, then you must give new tools for CWs to prevent the enemy from closing the gap.
May be a rework of shield to make it a "pulsating push"?
Something like: you "explode shield to push the enemy back 50' on a 180°. Then shield goes on a, let's say, 5s cooldown, during which you cannot release it, then you can release it again. On tab, increases the push to, let's say, 70'.
Or increase number of teleports
In general, i'd replace passive shield DR with a buff to abilities to keep distance.
If I severly outgear the enemy player, I can facetank every class with any class. Even in the last Mod I wrote an answer to a PuG TR, who insulted me, while he tried to take down my GWF. 10-15 seconds and two rotations of the TR later, I had lost 1/4th of my HP, pressed send and killed him.
Comments
Because Cryptic doesn't apparently pay any attention. Or if they do, they don't bother letting us know they hear us, much less that they agree (officially) and we can expect action *at some point* in the future. I mean, most of us get that they can't snap their fingers and get things done... but it would be nice to know that things like this are officially on the list and will definitely be worked on at some point.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
Haha, I said something very similar in another thread earlier today. I happen to have been around when CC was actually necessary - back when 9K GS was awesome and R5s were considered high-end enchants and no one even realized armor and weapon enchants could be "greater" much less "perfect"
Back then, we CWs had to learn control. Power creep then set in, and it became unnecessary. So for a year (if not more) we have a crop of CWs than never needed to learn the controller aspects and were simply ranged strikers. It's understandable because CWs can pump out the DPS for sure, but you're right, many CWs can't control their thumbs into their own backsides, much less control in combat.
I think, though, we're coming full circle though. I mean, seeing Ray of Frost being used in PvP commonly again is a major indication that control is coming back into vogue again.
That said, I've never tried using shield on tab in pvp... having read this thread, I guess I should
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
You just haven't been here long enough, or paid attention enough. I often talk about stealth, http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?951281-Stealth-reveal&p=11199701&viewfull=1#post11199701 and in a hundred oh-so-long-forgotten unheard discussions.
Probably I just got tired of reiterating for every lazy incompetent snob who doesn't know to use the forum search function.
I am not a snob nor incompetent and i didnt start this tread for discuss TRs either, and ive been here since beta. So pls stop beeing rude.
Yes. That was a bit harsh. Excuse my choice of words.
Backtracking, I think the reason most CW nerf threads turn into TR flame threads is that, they hate us because we always kill them.
A knee-jerk nerf to shield may improve QoL for the GWF--which I'm not saying that it will, being just another case of not seeing past the most obvious probable cause, down into the underlying fundamental issue. I can't suggest a proper nerf to that matter because I don't have all the data.
But if experience serves me, if you change how Shield performs now, that will put the CW at an even worse odds against the TR. By the same token, nerfing piercing damage (which makes life unbearable for CW) would put us at a deadend against DC and OP.
Classes have a natural rock-paper-scissor relationship. Balance should be looked at from the perspective of who will benefit and who will suffer the most.
Which is where my suggestion, the "buff the debuffs" comes in.
Increase the average intensity of debuff powers each class has, introduce some new debuff types such as stamina debuff or heal/tempHP debuff, and implant a lot of these into the class currently considered the weakest -- the SW, without increasing their survivability or damage, so SWs continue to function as a relatively frail class in open engagements, but in turn can dish out huge, powerful debuffs to DR and heals/tempHP, so that any "holy tanks" in the vicinity will be debuffed with all the "unholy" stuff a Warlock can dish out -- forcing a zero-sum situation on the DCs and OPs.
If PvP is comprised of damage, defense, buffs, and debuffs, in NW the first three are very high, and yet, the fourth, which is often a crucial balancing factor, remains weak, down to useless/gimmicky levels. Hence, the higher level you go in PvP the more it becomes just a simple, bland fight between the irresistable force vs the immovable object... which is just a fancy way of saying endless stalemate.
We need a debuff-factor that is meaningful in this game, which will turn things into "quite resisitable force" and "quite movable object".
Seen a BiS CW vs BiS GF duel yesterday in a domination match while waiting for the match to end. At the beginning, it was a head-to-head fight with both toons' HPs barely going down, or going down a bit then refilling. Both negation users.
But in the long run, the GF emerged and won with around 25-30% HP left.
A GWF in TNegation-TFeytouched can be VERY hard to kill too. Seen BiS GWFs with up to 25% LS chance and such setup. You figure how hard those guys can be to kill. Feels very much like Module 2 GWF.
But that's cause of the enchants.
SW is the only class at a clear disadvantage right now.
I think too it's not the survivability but rather how it is achieved that is wrong on CW. Survivability is ok. Ability to passively facetank the damage is just the wrong way.
Back in module 3, playing a CW in PvP was not balanced cause you got strong DPS but the moment a melee focused you, you were almost helpless. Not enough tools to keep distance/ defend, and too many tools for melees to close the gap fast and get in melee range.
So the devs buffed shield but that was the wrong way.
If you tone down Shield, then you must give new tools for CWs to prevent the enemy from closing the gap.
May be a rework of shield to make it a "pulsating push"?
Something like: you "explode shield to push the enemy back 50' on a 180°. Then shield goes on a, let's say, 5s cooldown, during which you cannot release it, then you can release it again. On tab, increases the push to, let's say, 70'.
Or increase number of teleports
In general, i'd replace passive shield DR with a buff to abilities to keep distance.
Jesus christ you are such an idiot... We get it, you dont like cw, and you just want your GWF and TR be able to kill everything without resistance... Negation is the biggest issue in the game currently, and due to the way it works with shield, you get the immortals cws(more or less..). Shield alone is a good defense, but against a player that knows how to play it isnt that big a deal... And yes i am maining a cw, and broke down and a bought a negation enchantment the other day, the difference is HUGE..
If I severly outgear the enemy player, I can facetank every class with any class. Even in the last Mod I wrote an answer to a PuG TR, who insulted me, while he tried to take down my GWF. 10-15 seconds and two rotations of the TR later, I had lost 1/4th of my HP, pressed send and killed him.
On an equal geared lvl, not so much.