Shield on tab,with the new stat curves,made CWs the most tankiest class in game.
That is a freakin fact.
Cw's base 9-12% DR plus 25% UNMITIGATED shield DR=37%.
BiS Gfs hardly reach 35%.
And yet Cws complain.They want compensation.
"we are squishy!!!We need it for pve!!!! We need moarrr DPS and CC!We lack control!We need more dodges!!!!Tanks oneshot us!! (lie) ,Devs please help us!!!We are the choisen ones we deserve special treatment!!Devs!!!"
"Are we murderers?Are we turn our back against the other classes?Are we the Legend?or we are the truth behind the legend?We believe in our brokeness!!We have faith to the devs!!Remember the broken class we are,remeber the deeds we performed,soloing and glitching CN...
Now Devs tell us...Who are WE???"
^^^^
"We are favored CWWWWWSSSSSS!!"
back on topic;
No compensation.Dev please adjust CW shield to new stat curves.i don't get it;Are they something special?My Gf went from 49.8% DR (57,5%) effectictive in mod5 to 32% in Mod6.
Cw shield remained the same.What is so special about that class.Make the new shield 40%/30%/20%.
NW player base had enough of their endless crying, whinning,propaganda,reality distortion,manipulation ,lying,falsifing data.
Bring that accursed clas to line;
Fix the shield (cause it is a broken mechanic at,m) ,fix SS.Make them respect tenacity as all do.
Shield on tab,with the new stat curves,made CWs the most tankiest class in game.
That is a freakin fact.
Cw's base 9-12% DR plus 25% UNMITIGATED shield DR=37%.
BiS Gfs hardly reach 35%.
And yet Cws complain.They want compensation.
"we are squishy!!!We need it for pve!!!! We need moarrr DPS and CC!We lack control!We need more dodges!!!!Tanks oneshot us!! (lie) ,Devs please help us!!!We are the choisen ones we deserve special treatment!!Devs!!!"
"Are we murderers?Are we turn our back against the other classes?Are we the Legend?or we are the truth behind the legend?We believe in our brokeness!!We have faith to the devs!!Remember the broken class we are,remeber the deeds we performed,soloing and glitching CN...
Now Devs tell us...Who are WE???"
^^^^
"We are favored CWWWWWSSSSSS!!"
back on topic;
No compensation.Dev please adjust CW shield to new stat curves.i don't get it;Are they something special?My Gf went from 49.8% DR (57,5%) effectictive in mod5 to 32% in Mod6.
Cw shield remained the same.What is so special about that class.Make the new shield 40%/30%/20%.
NW player base had enough of their endless crying, whinning,propaganda,reality distortion,manipulation ,lying,falsifing data.
Bring that accursed clas to line;
Fix the shield (cause it is a broken mechanic at,m) ,fix SS.Make them respect tenacity as all do.
Enough!!!
DR is not determinant of being tanky, truly important statistic is deflection and CWs has got 2/3%?
It is funny how people are crying about CW while at this moment, only sw is in worsed situation.
Deflection severity is not the issue. It's ItC. Rogues otherwise focusing on defensive capabilities, specifically going into the Scoundrel tree, give up massive offensive capabilities. We cant do both.
The fix to TRs is actually pretty easy.
REMOVE the ability for Shadow Strike to re-fill stealth when used OUTSIDE stealth.
This alone makes it much harder to get back into stealth. That would fix a huge issue.
In terms of 1v1 fights (to control a node) between players at similar (BiS) gear level and skill, it goes roughly like this:
- CW loses hard to TR.
- CW loses hard to HR.
- CW loses hard to GF.
- CW vs GWF depends a bit, but overall the most balanced type of fight that a CW can have against another class.
- CW vs OP is a stalemate, with the CW making the OP bleed points from Repel.
- CW vs DC is a stalemate; the CW gets better tools for making DCs bleed points than vice versa.
- CW beats SW.
So there's exactly one class CWs actually have a clear-cut advantage over at the moment, and that class is in need of a major boost to be competitive in PvP.
As for how CWs match up against GWFs in particular, most GWFs aren't very challenging (because they're not good enough at timing and landing their hits), but I've run into those who abuse cheesy reflect mechanics which is very hard to fight for a CW. And GWFs that get their damage built up can still virtually two-shot a CW through Shield. Another point pertinent to this discussion is also animation canceling; GWFs that use that to the full can establish a clear-cut advantage over CWs by baiting out their dodges. Again, there are very few GWFs that do this. Possibly because it's a cheesy move, but more likely for a lack of skill. A GWF that hits a CW like a wet noodle is doing something wrong in any case.
In terms of other matchups: TRs tear CWs apart thanks to stealth, Shadowy Opportunity, having excessively many and long dodges, ITC. It is true CWs can thank SO better than most thanks to Shield, but CW casting times (though faster than they once were) are such that it's still hard to land a hit against a TR when you find them (even Repel isn't quite fast enough). HRs may not do massive damage like they once did, but they'll keep a CW dazed until he dies. GFs can block anything a CW can attack them with, and then kill them with Bull Charge/Anvil (just time the attacks to hit during animation locks between dodges).
While conceptually I agree that the necessity of slotting Shield on tab is stupid and should change, doing so without at the same time making sure that CWs get adequate compensation in terms of other defensive boosts will just mean CWs will be reset to module 3 status, making CWs roughly on par with SWs as classes that can potentially hit hard, but die too easily.
What should take place then:
- If CW Shield gets nerfed, CWs should get other defensive tools to compensate. More and longer teleports, maybe.
- CWs need better tools for fighting GFs. (Or GF damage might need a trim.)
- CWs don't need better tools for fighting HRs or TRs; permadaze needs to be toned down and TRs (most specifically, MI Saboteurs) need a nerf.
One thing that may be an issue with Shield is how it scales (as in, it doesn't). That may make it more of an issue the weaker the gear involved is (assuming both players have equal gear). Shield DR existing in its own layer could also be considered a problem given how the Tenacity system was changed; while previously things were multiplicative, now CWs with Negation can get DR equal to tanky characters while using Shield on top. However, a CW is still also clearly less up-front tanky than a properly built and played tank (including GWFs).
So really, the most broken thing here may just be how they broke the Tenacity system. If they'd just applied Armor Penetration Resistance, that would have boosted the tankiness of classes like GWF and GF most of all, without giving everyone 80% DR.
If u lose to a GWF as a CW u do something wrong, sry thats just how it is. Usualy GWFs plays with IBS, FLS, Daggers. IF u miss the FLS the GWF now has 17ish Sec CD on anyting that CCs the CW (Even if u don miss the IBS deals VERY little dmg cus u dont have time to get stacks up!). So best case is to remove IBS and slot TD. How ever this combo deals VERY little dmg. A Cw however with very good stamina regain and 5 SECish on Repell, Disting and Entag is pretty much unbeatable. A good CW dsnt ever let the GWF build his stacks up. And with Shield on Tab + Negation its NOT a 2 shot EVER from a GWF.
And on a sidenote, if the CW use the firebuff from the wheel the GWF is dead before he can even press unstoppable.
This is FACTS not some <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> around.
Btw i even tried to go with full darks and 130% RI, still hit the CW as a wet nudle. Shield needs a serious tone down. Its just not OK to have extremly low CD on encounters, have decent CC, very good DPS and Range. Its to much in one packet.
I am not saying that everything is WAI in the game, sertainly not. This is just one of many things that needs adjustments imo.
REMOVE the ability for Shadow Strike to re-fill stealth when used OUTSIDE stealth.
This alone makes it much harder to get back into stealth. That would fix a huge issue.
Making it "much harder to get back into stealth" would break the intricate web of TR combat mechanics and destroy the class, barring another major rework. Imagine that you have to have one encounter power to fire up Unstoppable after you use it once, and you can't use it again. I would gladly trade mechanics with you GWFs. TR takes a certain amount of damage to build "determination" to restealth. Now, how about all classes should only be able to TAB once per fight after you've destroyed Shadow Strike.
Making it "much harder to get back into stealth" would break the intricate web of TR combat mechanics and destroy the class, barring another major rework. Imagine that you have to have one encounter power to fire up Unstoppable after you use it once, and you can't use it again. I would gladly trade mechanics with you GWFs. TR takes a certain amount of damage to build "determination" to restealth. Now, how about all classes should only be able to TAB once per fight after you've destroyed Shadow Strike.
Well maybe that is not the best sulotion, but either rework ITC to not be so **** good. Taking almost no dmg AND beeing cc imune for 6 sec. OR make that insane piercing dmg respecting tenacity like the rest of the classes in the entire game.
Well maybe that is not the best sulotion, but either rework ITC to not be so **** good. Taking almost no dmg AND beeing cc imune for 6 sec. OR make that insane piercing dmg respecting tenacity like the rest of the classes in the entire game.
i say make piercing damage respect tenacity. that would make them either be offensive, or defensive. they would have to spec on way or the other. right now, as a TR, you can be all things to all people.
guys please understand that in the TR delusional minds if they are dying once or twice in a pvp match and end up with 20 kills and 2 deaths, the TR needs a buff
This happens in one of two cases;
1. The TR is a low geared dumb ****tard who is playing hit n run. Snipe almost-dead players. Run away, and repeat. If he can't run fast enough 1 of 10 times, he drops.
2. The TR you are fighting is BiS. Chances are, his scores are 20-0.
how the frak u are ruining the mechanic of the TR when he needs to be tonned down, but you guys are just blindly and drunk of Overpowerness, each TR are complaining about the paladins that are hard to kill, well they dont realize that paladin is the same as a TR when is compared to surviability.
Because, for those who are unenlightened about How2play-a-TR, restealthing is central to everything we do.
- Permastealth (of any degree) assumes that you are using all possible ways to manage restealthing.
- SO Sabos burn through 3 rotations of stealth proc piercing damage.
HOWEVER, taking away that "restealth" process kills off any viable remaining Scoundrels, Executioners, and Whisperknife out there who are complete bystanders in this whole rampant Sabo madness.
So yes, the suggested fix is RUINING the class mechanics if the following conditions are true;
- You apply a blanket nerf to a whole class, and all of its builds
- You do not address the issue directly enough
- You result in just pushing all of the players of that class to find another broken build to exploit
This happens in one of two cases;
1. The TR is a low geared dumb ****tard who is playing hit n run. Snipe almost-dead players. Run away, and repeat. If he can't run fast enough 1 of 10 times, he drops.
2. The TR you are fighting is BiS. Chances are, his scores are 20-0.
Because, for those who are unenlightened about How2play-a-TR, restealthing is central to everything we do.
- Permastealth (of any degree) assumes that you are using all possible ways to manage restealthing.
- SO Sabos burn through 3 rotations of stealth proc piercing damage.
HOWEVER, taking away that "restealth" process kills off any viable remaining Scoundrels, Executioners, and Whisperknife out there who are complete bystanders in this whole rampant Sabo madness.
So yes, the suggested fix is RUINING the class mechanics if the following conditions are true;
- You apply a blanket nerf to a whole class, and all of its builds
- You do not address the issue directly enough
- You result in just pushing all of the players of that class to find another broken build to exploit
It does. It needs major changes. Right now, any attempt to "tune it down" would just result in (a) destroying it or (b) possibly making things worse. Basically, the TR can do only one of anything to a certain degree;
CC focused Scoundrel
Burst Executioner
Ranged dps
Attrition Permastealth
ItC tank melee
With the exception of SO Sabo..................................which can do all of the above.
are you making fun of us?
if you keep posting stuff like that i will even doubt you play trickster rougue at all.
i dont care about it's stealth, he can keep the stealth, he can keep the damage, he can even get damage buffs!
the problem that i have is that it's impossible to do a 1vs1 against a TR as he is NOT LACKING SURVIABILITY
i dont care about the REGEN NERF, cause that affected all classes
the problem itself is the 25% deflect severity that in modul6 it doesn't have a place anymore, nerf that for the beginnin and everything will be fine.
what will happen is that a TR might loose to a 1vs1 , not if he's skilled
so NERF ITC deflect, and actually give him a better CC BREAK that doesn't glitch, and make the roots to not pierce through ITC anymore.
but take away deflect chance and deflect severity this is all i ask, and this will not break the TR class, if i will hear it once more that "it will break TR class mechanic" i will come and break ur keyboard!!! (not raging, but a totally amazed mood)
the same goes for CWs, PURPLE SHIELD NEEDS TO BE TONNED DOWN, it's simple because a rank4 and 100k hp it's making it totally unbalanced.
Totally no idea where you are coming from. You don't know the first thing about how the class works, and presume to know how to fix it by presenting copy-paste ideas that hundreds before you have presented, discussed, and devs dismissed.
As to whether do I play a TR or not... well, that just says how NEW you are to the game or these forums that you have no clue who you are arguing with. While I'm not the best geared TR out there, one thing seasoned players here cannot deny is that I have only ever been a rogue since Open Beta. I play other classes here and there, especially DC, but never to the extent of playtime my rogue gets.
LOL. Another debate on some other class, ultimately ending up in a TR bashing thread. Figures, doesn't it.
...and no, it's not the deflection, it's the damage. Remove SO. Sabos don't need it. Shouldn't have it in the first place.
Since after the stealth duration nerf every other TR has an inevitable down time in where -- even if its a MI -- it becomes vulnerable after having all three defense mechancis on cooldtime, stealth is out, SS and ITC both on recharge. With the shortened stealth duration at max maybe 3~4 at-wills is all you can manage, forcing both executioners and scoundrels to fight outside of stealth most of the time (although those two have some differences in just how the fight is managed in the details). In that sense, currently there's no OP mechanic (at least by itself) whatsoever with TRs that are not Sabo, and especially not MI. There's no permadaze. There's no permastealth. There's no piercing damage. There's no clockwork-perfect "safe" stealth rotations. There's no one-shot damage.
The only TR that is outside of those rules, and by an amount that's hilariously overpowered, which can manage a clockwork-perfect stealth rotation, attack from distance while invisible, have those attacks hit like a truck with piercing damage + broken item set bonus, and manage a finisher daily with a huge damage... Sabos, particularly MI Sabos.
Don't need attack combos, don't need complex combat management, in most cases don't even need dodges. Enter stealth, hold down 1 button from a distance and your target is down by like 25~30% HP.
...
Get rid of Shadowy Opportunity. Sabos don't need it. If they want piercing damage, they can slot Oppressive Darkness.
LOL. Another debate on some other class, ultimately ending up in a TR bashing thread. Figures, doesn't it.
CW's love to play ball with us. I swear it was one CW person here who sidetracked the topic to rogues. They say "catch" we jump. Funny yeah? Everybody is talking about nerf TR deflection...
See who's good at "deflecting" the subject lol. CWs
Are you daft? Rustlord and many others have spelled it out pretty clearly. I highly suggest playing a TR. You are apparently unable to diagnose the actual issues through casual observation. I don't really understand why it's so hard to figure out. The power is practically wrapped up with a pretty bow with a tag that says, "Overpowered."
Lol yes i play TR to, but i dont see rust making any suggesitions so far, only that it would "break" the class. Well maybe or maybe not, but as i said, piercing + ITC its to good of a combo.
CW's love to play ball with us. I swear it was one CW person here who sidetracked the topic to rogues. They say "catch" we jump. Funny yeah? Everybody is talking about nerf TR deflection...
See who's good at "deflecting" the subject lol. CWs
Lol yes i play TR to, but i dont see rust making any suggesitions so far, only that it would "break" the class. Well maybe or maybe not, but as i said, piercing + ITC its to good of a combo.
On that everyone agrees. Even many TR players agree. So why are us TR players forced to re-confirm what's been said in thread like this every time as if its some kind of a mission statement when us TR players were actually the first ones to report to the community how broken easy Sabos are?
...except you guys suck in control since nobody really builds for control, or appreciates how much control you can really dish out.
I've never mentioned it straightly before, but IMO many CW players are simply misled by the amount of DPS the class can do, and so many veterans have made manuals or explanatory posts on how good it is to play a nuke-DPS at the expense of the loss of control, that nobody really even questions if that's all the CW can do.
But of course, that's a story for another thread I guess.
Comments
That is a freakin fact.
Cw's base 9-12% DR plus 25% UNMITIGATED shield DR=37%.
BiS Gfs hardly reach 35%.
And yet Cws complain.They want compensation.
"we are squishy!!!We need it for pve!!!! We need moarrr DPS and CC!We lack control!We need more dodges!!!!Tanks oneshot us!! (lie) ,Devs please help us!!!We are the choisen ones we deserve special treatment!!Devs!!!"
Cws would say to the devs 0.1 -0.57
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUAXRHgkXMU
"Are we murderers?Are we turn our back against the other classes?Are we the Legend?or we are the truth behind the legend?We believe in our brokeness!!We have faith to the devs!!Remember the broken class we are,remeber the deeds we performed,soloing and glitching CN...
Now Devs tell us...Who are WE???"
^^^^
"We are favored CWWWWWSSSSSS!!"
back on topic;
No compensation.Dev please adjust CW shield to new stat curves.i don't get it;Are they something special?My Gf went from 49.8% DR (57,5%) effectictive in mod5 to 32% in Mod6.
Cw shield remained the same.What is so special about that class.Make the new shield 40%/30%/20%.
NW player base had enough of their endless crying, whinning,propaganda,reality distortion,manipulation ,lying,falsifing data.
Bring that accursed clas to line;
Fix the shield (cause it is a broken mechanic at,m) ,fix SS.Make them respect tenacity as all do.
Enough!!!
DR is not determinant of being tanky, truly important statistic is deflection and CWs has got 2/3%?
It is funny how people are crying about CW while at this moment, only sw is in worsed situation.
Nothing interesting here, typical nerf thread.
The fix to TRs is actually pretty easy.
REMOVE the ability for Shadow Strike to re-fill stealth when used OUTSIDE stealth.
This alone makes it much harder to get back into stealth. That would fix a huge issue.
If u lose to a GWF as a CW u do something wrong, sry thats just how it is. Usualy GWFs plays with IBS, FLS, Daggers. IF u miss the FLS the GWF now has 17ish Sec CD on anyting that CCs the CW (Even if u don miss the IBS deals VERY little dmg cus u dont have time to get stacks up!). So best case is to remove IBS and slot TD. How ever this combo deals VERY little dmg. A Cw however with very good stamina regain and 5 SECish on Repell, Disting and Entag is pretty much unbeatable. A good CW dsnt ever let the GWF build his stacks up. And with Shield on Tab + Negation its NOT a 2 shot EVER from a GWF.
And on a sidenote, if the CW use the firebuff from the wheel the GWF is dead before he can even press unstoppable.
This is FACTS not some <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> around.
Btw i even tried to go with full darks and 130% RI, still hit the CW as a wet nudle. Shield needs a serious tone down. Its just not OK to have extremly low CD on encounters, have decent CC, very good DPS and Range. Its to much in one packet.
I am not saying that everything is WAI in the game, sertainly not. This is just one of many things that needs adjustments imo.
Making it "much harder to get back into stealth" would break the intricate web of TR combat mechanics and destroy the class, barring another major rework. Imagine that you have to have one encounter power to fire up Unstoppable after you use it once, and you can't use it again. I would gladly trade mechanics with you GWFs. TR takes a certain amount of damage to build "determination" to restealth. Now, how about all classes should only be able to TAB once per fight after you've destroyed Shadow Strike.
Well maybe that is not the best sulotion, but either rework ITC to not be so **** good. Taking almost no dmg AND beeing cc imune for 6 sec. OR make that insane piercing dmg respecting tenacity like the rest of the classes in the entire game.
i say make piercing damage respect tenacity. that would make them either be offensive, or defensive. they would have to spec on way or the other. right now, as a TR, you can be all things to all people.
This happens in one of two cases;
1. The TR is a low geared dumb ****tard who is playing hit n run. Snipe almost-dead players. Run away, and repeat. If he can't run fast enough 1 of 10 times, he drops.
2. The TR you are fighting is BiS. Chances are, his scores are 20-0.
Because, for those who are unenlightened about How2play-a-TR, restealthing is central to everything we do.
- Permastealth (of any degree) assumes that you are using all possible ways to manage restealthing.
- SO Sabos burn through 3 rotations of stealth proc piercing damage.
HOWEVER, taking away that "restealth" process kills off any viable remaining Scoundrels, Executioners, and Whisperknife out there who are complete bystanders in this whole rampant Sabo madness.
So yes, the suggested fix is RUINING the class mechanics if the following conditions are true;
- You apply a blanket nerf to a whole class, and all of its builds
- You do not address the issue directly enough
- You result in just pushing all of the players of that class to find another broken build to exploit
So you dont think the TR needs adjustments?
It does. It needs major changes. Right now, any attempt to "tune it down" would just result in (a) destroying it or (b) possibly making things worse. Basically, the TR can do only one of anything to a certain degree;
CC focused Scoundrel
Burst Executioner
Ranged dps
Attrition Permastealth
ItC tank melee
With the exception of SO Sabo..................................which can do all of the above.
Totally no idea where you are coming from. You don't know the first thing about how the class works, and presume to know how to fix it by presenting copy-paste ideas that hundreds before you have presented, discussed, and devs dismissed.
As to whether do I play a TR or not... well, that just says how NEW you are to the game or these forums that you have no clue who you are arguing with. While I'm not the best geared TR out there, one thing seasoned players here cannot deny is that I have only ever been a rogue since Open Beta. I play other classes here and there, especially DC, but never to the extent of playtime my rogue gets.
...and no, it's not the deflection, it's the damage. Remove SO. Sabos don't need it. Shouldn't have it in the first place.
Since after the stealth duration nerf every other TR has an inevitable down time in where -- even if its a MI -- it becomes vulnerable after having all three defense mechancis on cooldtime, stealth is out, SS and ITC both on recharge. With the shortened stealth duration at max maybe 3~4 at-wills is all you can manage, forcing both executioners and scoundrels to fight outside of stealth most of the time (although those two have some differences in just how the fight is managed in the details). In that sense, currently there's no OP mechanic (at least by itself) whatsoever with TRs that are not Sabo, and especially not MI. There's no permadaze. There's no permastealth. There's no piercing damage. There's no clockwork-perfect "safe" stealth rotations. There's no one-shot damage.
The only TR that is outside of those rules, and by an amount that's hilariously overpowered, which can manage a clockwork-perfect stealth rotation, attack from distance while invisible, have those attacks hit like a truck with piercing damage + broken item set bonus, and manage a finisher daily with a huge damage... Sabos, particularly MI Sabos.
Don't need attack combos, don't need complex combat management, in most cases don't even need dodges. Enter stealth, hold down 1 button from a distance and your target is down by like 25~30% HP.
...
Get rid of Shadowy Opportunity. Sabos don't need it. If they want piercing damage, they can slot Oppressive Darkness.
for all that is holy, just nerf sabs and leave the rest of us out of it!!!
ps: this debate is completely off-topic
CW's love to play ball with us. I swear it was one CW person here who sidetracked the topic to rogues. They say "catch" we jump. Funny yeah? Everybody is talking about nerf TR deflection...
See who's good at "deflecting" the subject lol. CWs
Lol yes i play TR to, but i dont see rust making any suggesitions so far, only that it would "break" the class. Well maybe or maybe not, but as i said, piercing + ITC its to good of a combo.
Control Wizards. We control the conversation!
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
On that everyone agrees. Even many TR players agree. So why are us TR players forced to re-confirm what's been said in thread like this every time as if its some kind of a mission statement when us TR players were actually the first ones to report to the community how broken easy Sabos are?
...except you guys suck in control since nobody really builds for control, or appreciates how much control you can really dish out.
I've never mentioned it straightly before, but IMO many CW players are simply misled by the amount of DPS the class can do, and so many veterans have made manuals or explanatory posts on how good it is to play a nuke-DPS at the expense of the loss of control, that nobody really even questions if that's all the CW can do.
But of course, that's a story for another thread I guess.