Getting Booted After Boss in Epics to Eliminate Competition for Loot.

beastnhisharlot · June 2015

There is an issue with the booting system and there is an easy fix. Booting is important since it allows for dead-weight players to be booted from the party in order to make room for players who will earn their shot at gear. However, this system is currently being abused at the higher levels of epic dungeons, especially on Epic Castle Never. I played with a group, presumably with a team of three or four friends, and I, the solo player. We got to the final boss, fought him, and beat him in a single try. I didn't go down once and did quite a bit of damage to the boss and mobs. Once the boss was defeated, I saw a the Ancient Trapper's ornate Longbow on the ground. I was excited as I was the only Hunter Ranger in the group, so the bow would have definitely be mine. I went to pick it up, pressed "A" for need, then my screen promptly loaded to Protector's Enclave. I got booted. Not because I was doing poorly and could not keep my own, not because I wasn't contributing, but because I wan't part of their guild or team, and booting the random (or the two randoms if they were in a group of three), would mean that all loot, and profits from the loot, could be split between the rest of them.

This isn't the first time this has happened either. Actually, only once have I not been attempted to be booted from a group, and that group was impressed enough by my character to invite me from their guild. Every other time, I have either been successfully kicked from a group after the final boss has been defeated, or I have seen in the feed "Vote kick failed" without having received a prompt to boot anyone, meaning that the vote kick was intended for me.

This system is broken and promotes unethical decisions by players, and robs solo players from rewards that they earned just so the people who know each other can make a few Astral Diamonds.

Now, I'm not saying that the boot system should be removed, because it is entirely necessary. However, I think it should be reworked. I also believe that the solution is simple: Do not allow vote kicking during or after the final boss fight in a dungeon. This still allows people to boot during the bulk of the dungeon, and allows for people to boot if the entire group dies at the final boss. What it doesn't allow is people booting simply to eliminate competition for gear.

The reason as to why vote kicking shouldn't be allowed specifically during or after the final boss fight is because of the same reason. If vote kicking isn't allowed after the boss fight, then small groups wouldn't be able to get rid random players simply to eliminate competition for items. For that same reason, vote kicking shouldn't be allowed during the boss fight because players could simply wait until the boss is very close to dead, then vote kick the other players, and finish the boss themselves. I feel like the cut off for vote kicking should be once the "group gathering" timer reaches zero and everyone is transported to the boss's chamber. That way, everyone who contributed to the boss's death has a chance for the boss's rewards.

As a closing statement, I do not believe that this system is ever going to be balanced or perfect. However, the kicking of random players at the end of Epic dungeons to eliminate competition for loot is a quite common practice, and it has a simple fix. I would appreciate as much support on this thread so that the appropriate changes can be implemented. I would like PW support to see this and empathize with my plight.

Thank you to everyone who read this all the way though, and thank you for all those who chose to support this. This change needs to happen, and, with your support, it can.

Xbox GT: BeastNHisHarlot
Main Character: Jimbo Bob Bill

EDIT: It happened again today. I joined Epic Spellplague and a Greater Mark of Power dropped. Got booted before loot was distributed. Luckily, nothing else dropped for my character and the chest was garbage, but the sheer fact that I had a 20% chance to get this item was enough for the group of 4 to kick me. This is a terribly broken system and I have no idea how it has never been reworked since this game has been on PC for much longer.

onlymat · June 2015

the kick system is really bad - yesterday I played an the team leaves because they are not good - I was only the last one alive. So whlie the whole team changed and I was the only beeing there we come to the final boss - an after more than 3 hours playtime they kicked me BEFORE the end Boss - The kick System is bad - it should show you who kicks you that you can avoid playing these people again - often you get kickef because of the wron reason.

Someone sees an Epic thing to get and then kicks you so you can't get it

cyberguts · June 2015

The issue isn't just bound to loot drops....
I've been kicked many times in epics and especially Lostmauth; because I'm not what they're looking for. Which is weird considering before being kicked I've glanced at everyone's GS, of which most are barely over the 13k to run.
Basically, it comes down to people wanting to be carried through epics because it's their right, and will kick until they get what they need to ensure they get to the end.

And it's because of this, I suggest if you're having issue as such as this; to read this and join our Line LFG Chat feed in which several of us have been using when guild members are not available.

beastnhisharlot · June 2015

Yeah. Kicking is too common as it is. Add the fact that loot is shared and kicking has no limitations and you have a recipe for people to be complete jerks about stuff.

beastnhisharlot · June 2015

Thank you for this. I will definitely use this to join respectable groups.

silktrocity · June 2015

You think it's bad now? Just wait till you start trying to farm Epic Lostmauth and Shores (for the jewelry set.) Its ridiculous. I'm surprised I've never thought of that idea to fix it myself before. That would be an easy fix and would create a much better gaming experience.

sinibyte · June 2015

Finished my GWF last night - put on all the gear I've been hoarding, and got an 11.5k GS, and decided to run some quick pirates. I was able to complete 1 out of 4 runs due to kicking.

awrex1977 · June 2015

One of the issues that is also an issue is the looting system itself. I know on PC, Needing on an item (especially in pugs) is viewed as a kickable offense.

XBox is basically all need, all the time.

Like you said, you were the only HR there, meaning that by needing on an item (that in all likelyhood is getting sold) the other 4 guys in the group, who had contributed just as much as you have through out the dungeon, had 0 chance at the boss drop.

I'm not condoning loot kick - I think it's deplorable.

However, the loot mechanic itself is messed up too.

Every Dungeon has a chest at the end, the items in those chests are all bound to character and are items that anybody who opens can use (which should satisfy the "need" quota).

Needing on actual drops should be eliminated IMO. Roll/Pass should be the only 2 options, it eliminates the automatic pickup on unbound class specific items that get sold out of greed 9 times out of 10 even when acquired through the need feature.

thezer0flux · June 2015

The loot mechanic is perfectly fine. I need on everything I can, greed on stuff I want but can't need on, and pass on stuff I don't want... which is completely fair. If the RNG decides to drop something for a specific class, that class should definitely have first shot at it.

Don't worry though, once they implement personal loot there won't be loot windows and everything that drops for you will be for your class. It will basically be like it is now only without the loot windows. Some people will get drops... others won't.

awrex1977 · June 2015

Exactly why the need feature is part of the problem.

Needing on everything you can, even when you don't need it, but eliminates others from getting a shot is a greed roll (that you happen to be assured to win).

Eliminating the ability to need and simply roll or don't gives everybody the same option on everything.

You can still pass, and you can still roll on something you want.

thezer0flux · June 2015

I don't think it's a problem. The person (or people) running the class an item drops for should have first shot. It's fair because what goes around comes around. Items don't always drop for one class. Sometimes the loot is for you, sometimes it isn't. It's RNG all the way. What I think is greedy is other people wanting to take something the RNG dropped for another class. I see what you're saying and all, but because loot has a uniform chance to drop for all classes, the system is fair as fair can be.

Besides, like I said, it's a moot point because personal loot is coming. That was the fix implemented on PC to fix both the boot 'n' loot issue and the issue of the loot roll window being in the way. The RNG decides who to drop for and gives them something their class can use from the loot table.

nlgrinder · June 2015

Booting and looting amounts to stealing. It is as if another player reaches into your bank or inventory and simply takes what he wants. This is unacceptable for an MMO. The game is broken until this is fixed. If you want to send Cryptic a message that people stealing items from each other will not be tolerated, stop buying zen and stop using the AD exchange, which supports demand for zen indirectly.

Cryptic probably will not resolve this issue because I don't think they believe it's an issue.
A thread like this one started and was closed back in 2013. Here's the link:

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?569061-Vote-Kick-Ninja-Looting-is-getting-out-of-control

This system is so broken that I wonder if the people at Crypic have ever played a real MMO before.
Here's how it works:
1. Players should never have to worry about being booted during a boss fight.
2. Players should never have to worry about being booted while boss loot is on the ground waiting to be picked up.

After level 60, a player's gear score progress, which qualifies players for higher-level dungeons, is a main source of motivation for continuing to play. By allowing players to boot and loot with impunity, Cryptic is eliminating that motivation.

Crypic is insane to allow this to happen, especially with a new generation of console-based MMO players who have not been exposed to how to play these games correctly.

Hey Cryptic, fix this issue and email me when you have it right. I'll come back, buy some zen again, and go back to the grind. Until then, I have better things to do.

nem3sls · June 2015

I handle this well, problem this way: when I join a queue and there are three or more from the same guild I simply leave and re-queue, easy right?

Other than that I try to play with at least two of my mates to avoid kicks.

I know the above way can go awfully wrong when people are premade but not in the same guild but it reduced the risk to at least a level I can live with when playing alone.

nlgrinder · June 2015

I get that, in the mean time, players have to adapt. But takes a lot of the enjoyment out of the game to have to do that much legwork just to find a group of decent people to play with.
Ultimately it is still Cryptic's responsibility to fix this. One of the best solutions is to bind items to anyone who rolls "need" and wins. After all, rolling "need" in an MMO means you "need" the item. In other words, you are going to use the item yourself. That's how MMOs are supposed to work.
But Cryptic will not do this because they make more money if people can simply buy zen, trade the zen for ADs and then buy bossdrops off of the AH without having to actually kill any bosses.
Nem3sis I'm surprised that you have any patience at all for something like this. I refuse to play dungeons while not knowing for sure if I'll have a chance at the drop for my class when the boss is down. Even while you're playing with a guild, the potential is always there because of the game's design. Completely unacceptable.

nem3sls · June 2015

Yeah, like you said we need to adapt, it's OK for me.

str8slayer · June 2015

Boot n loot was and still is a problem on the PC version of the game, it was never changed and need rolls still exist. Generally we agree to "need" or "greed" before the run begins, if someone needs when the group agreed to greed, a boot is justified, otherwise, it is not.

Unfortunately reporting people for this will not do you any good, it is not technically against any rules nor are there any GM's who punish players. Bans get handed out for botting, exploiting and a few other key things they decided was exploiting after-the-fact (probably never happened on xbone).

spyg0at · June 2015

dunno what you guys are talking about, I don't get kicked.

chromedfish · June 2015

> @spyg0at said:
> dunno what you guys are talking about, I don't get kicked.

You must not run dungeons solo

shredboy1 · June 2015

Admittedly booting and looting is off the charts now, it's finally hit Lostmauth as much as Pirate Lair.. the trend seems to be once lesser skilled players finally make it to these higher end dungeons the fun begins. For example a month ago you would never get booted from Lostmauth, now its an epidemic...

spyg0at · June 2015

chromedfish wrote: »

> @spyg0at said:
> dunno what you guys are talking about, I don't get kicked.

You must not run dungeons solo

I was being sarcastic..lol

draven165 · June 2015

Well the boot and loot groups have won. Based on the main page the way the company is addressing it is as follows:

"In addition to performance issues and based on community feedback, we also wanted to make sure we tackle issues with queues and the vote-kicking system. New players in an instance cannot be kicked right away; there is a three minute buffer before kicking is allowed, but we firmly encourage adventurers to not kick your own party members unless absolutely necessary."

This does not address the fact that they let you play the entire Dungeon and then boot at the end after the boss is dead. At that point it does not matter if there is a 3 minute buffer or if they do not get any new players. This is not a fix. Sad days ahead. but hey they firmly encourage adventurers to not kick so everything is fine now right?

zacoria1405 · June 2015

It's now got completely out of hand. Got kicked 3 times this evening after the final boss after completing the whole dungeons. I think many are already leaving the game because of it, 200 members in my guild and only ever 2 on at any time. Maybe time to move on to another game I think as this is completely unplayable with all these morons now.

rockstargfu · June 2015

I got kicked at end of spell plague before boss was down, requed to same team and they wiped, roflmao!!

But yeah during bosses and for like 3-5min after, there shod be no kicks period

If something doesnt change there wil be no dungeons, 40 groups of 3 waiting for 2 spares lol

But i want a playable game solo

raymond00713 · June 2015

I'm a 15k TR and am normally higher than other TRs that join. I can pretty much guarantee that if there is another TR random he will immediately try to kick me. In Lostmauth they'll kick on drops and same with shores. Run with a group. Their fix it isn't a fix. We don't boot until one of them tries to boot one of us. Not the same guild so they can't tell we're in a group. You think it's just groups but a lot of the time it's solo players. They are relying on other people simply to click boot in fear of getting booted themselves. Or saying, "at least it's not me". I watched a TR boot 4/5 of the starting players throughout different stages of a T2. I was the fourth in a dungeon i can solo. I always voted no. They sealed their own fate without realizing.

soonergm · June 2015

Wow this just now happened to me! Sad thing is the loot rolls were done, I got nothing anyway. On my way to the chest I got kicked. I was also #1 in damage dealt. What is the purpose??

Also, the dungeon was nothing special... temple of the spider... lol what a joke.

draven165 · June 2015

I have pretty much stopped running Dungeons. I am too old for that drama. I was looking over the player code of conduct for this game and noticed it does address several of the issues the community is complaining about by saying these are violations yet they continue and the same people continue violating them. "Preventing content access" is very vague in the description and could easily be said that the whole boot and loot mentality is preventing player content access since several dungeons are gear score locked. Prevent people from getting gear and you are preventing them from access this content. But when asked directly about that policy the answer was not a real answer. It seems like most of the community the answer that this company has is join a guild. So instead of actually addressing the issue and start dishing out code of conduct violations they would rather pretend there isnt an issue and force people into guilds. By saying you need to join a guild they are in fact violating their own code of conduct by saying if you do not do this then you probably wont get to see this content. Vicious cycle.

And there is also a part that addresses the spam. In a response I received the company claims they suspend or "address" as they say one spammer and more pop up immediately. Then explain why the guy with the same user name and gamer tag has been spamming for weeks? Its not a "new" person popping up its the same person that they are not following through on their own code of conduct. Heck I even volunteered to be an in game monitor and lay down the ban hammer for the, if they cant seem to figure out how.

I enjoy the heck out of the game, but cant stand this new age mentality where companies choose not to live up to their own code of conduct that they themselves put forth. That is pure laziness or greed. (Start actually banning accounts and they will lose money mentality) So the rest of us suffer.

Rant over. Sorry but I work for a very large well known company and I am part of the Customer Experience Team that monitors sites and ensures that our agents are following company policies AND providing an excellent customer experience. It annoys the heck out of me when companies have no clue on how to execute on providing a good customer experience.

shazza53 · June 2015

Very well said, draven165. Quality Control and Quality Assurance do not stop once content is dumped on the Internet. I enjoy the game, but am having an ethical struggle as to whether I continue supporting a game where the devs have so little (apparent) concern for the serious issues.

draven165 · June 2015

My suggestion as I just did is to contact Xbox Live via chat and voice your complaint at the lack of action the developers are taking to address violations of player conduct. I am pleased with the outcome of my chat session as alot of specific information was requested and all of my screen shots along with my reported and blocked players lists through xbox were gathered. They did ask me to continue doing what I am doing with screens, videos, and reports. I dont know how much effort everyone else wants to put into an actual fix for this issue but here is an option. I am a firm believer in not complaining unless I am willing to stand up and do something about it.

guruoftime · June 2015

Not allowing a group to votekick during or after a final boss will just force groups to votekick immediately prior to activating the boss.

ancojo · June 2015

I'VE SUSSED IT! Are you ready for it......................................The reason they wont change the loot kicking issue is because...........................................ITS THE DEVS WHO LOOT KICK!

soonergm · June 2015

guruoftime wrote: »

Not allowing a group to votekick during or after a final boss will just force groups to votekick immediately prior to activating the boss.

But why kick at that point? You still need another player(most likely) to beat the boss on the harder dungeons. If your party has blown through the dungeon to that point there is no reason to believe you can't beat the boss with the same party until you give it a shot or two.

So after I was kicked last night I queued up again and right off the bat someone was trying to vote kick multiple people. I saw 2 people were in the same guild and immediately thought it was them. 1 was another HR (which I am), so I knew my turn was coming... but to my surprise the kicks failed and they both said stop kicking, no more kicking. 1 person left (probably the vote initiator) and no problems after that. This is what more people need to do, start taking a stand.

Getting Booted After Boss in Epics to Eliminate Competition for Loot.

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