PVE GWF seems to be excessively powerful

karlorsacorn · May 2015

I have done several runs with different GWFs in the group in various dungeons and have seen the GWF be top DPS (by a longshot) in most runs. Are GWFs supposed to be doing 500,000,000 damage by the end of T2 Spider? That number is a little low, the real number can be seen in a screenshot I have. Tripling or more everyone else in DPS. Why?

instynctive · May 2015

My last /combatlog, I recorded a heralds run (all 5) and Tiamat (fail, but I fought the whole thing).

25 million damage.

Just over 14k DPS.

My GWF isn't anything special though. 2k ilvl.

zvieris · May 2015

Blame the devs for giving GWF poor base damage and compensating that with insane Destroyer GWF dmg modifier trough various stacks that can spike for 300%+ and then implementing something like Lostmauth Set which is affected by all that.

query523 · May 2015

An awful lot of what you are seeing is lostmauth set. It works particularilly well for GWF and I am pretty sure will face the nerf bat at some point in the future. That said I think that GWF should have the best DPS of the classes for one reason only. They have no other purpose. Every other class has buffs/ de-buffs/ CCs that are meaningfull. GWFs have none. I also think that without the lost set GWF damage is reasonable in proportion to other classes. Beyond that you should notice that having one OP DPS that is good for burning down bosses makes T2 completeable for a lot of other people. Which is why I do not see a lost fix in the near future.

instynctive · May 2015

Frontline Surge is highly effective in getting mobs off clerics in Temple of Tiamat, if no one else is bothering to do crowd control. :-)

zacazu · May 2015

"Strikers specialize in mobility and damage output. These combatants focus on disposing threats as quickly as possible by doing as much damage as they can, as quickly as they can, without enemies retaliating."

gwf do a lot of damage? yes. can do that damage "without relatiating" alone? no. and some enemies hit really hard today...

about be a secundary defender, is impossible defend someone. i can protect myself against some enemies using some mobility w/o immunity frames and the blessing temporary hp.

so, complain about that if you are not a sw (+/- the same thing) just seens some "Paingiver pride", and not a objective/estrutural problem of the game. is cool have a huge damage, but is not JUST what matter today. is a characteristic of the class, in this case, a generic berserker.

fastrean3 · May 2015

Can't understand this kind of post, why complaints? If its complaint for pvp, it make sense, complaint GWF damge in PVE or even complaint the striker classes doing huge damage in PVE.....seriously, are you want to smooth finish the dungeon and get the reward or not? Of cause, i mean run the dungeon on the legit way.

gomok72 · May 2015

I bet you never did inspect this guy and ran straight to the forums to whine about it. Every GWF that does damage like this that I have seen are geared to the teeth, your not going to see any green or blue geared warriors without major enchants doing damage like this.

First off when you make posts like this, take a picture of the person's gear and then put up what he/she had on to have these results.

This forums is littered with class "A" seems to be OP over class "B", etc, etc.

I don't have Lostmauth set on yet and my damage in Dungeons is usually 800k to a million over everyone else's damage, of course I have Transcended Vorpal, Crit severity companions and Rank 10-11 stat enchants at level 60.

hallacatt · May 2015

Here are my thoughts as a Non-GWF:

Note 1 - I dont think GWF damage in PVE should be nerfed, rather I believe that GWF damage in PVE is EXACTLY sufficient for the content and other DPS classes should (but currently dont) do a similar amount of damage in PVE.

Note 2 - GWF is without question the BEST pve DPS.

Note 3 - GWF pve dps is not solely due to the Lostmauth set bonus. A GWF I run with regularly out damages any non-gwf class I run with by roughly 40-50 million in ECC/ToS. Subtracting lostmauth set AND aura of courage from an ACT parse for any given dungeon run still places him at roughly 20 million better than any other class I regularly dungeon with - barring better/multiple GWF's. (multiple gwf's result in lower total damage for both) His gear is just fair, t2, epic artis and artifact gear, no enchants better than rank 8, only a greater vorpal, and truly underwhelming companions. His ilvl is just mid-2500s. (I dont remember the exact number) None of the people I regularly run with have lesser gear and in fact the vast majority of the people I run with have FAR superior gear. You dont need BiS to absolutely curbstomp every other dps class. Lazalia's GWF build is just THAT good. This is just simple fact. CWs, TRs, *insert dps class here* just cannot compare to the raw damage a GWF currently deals in pve.

Final Note for GWF's - If you arent experiencing what I describe above with your GWF, you need to take a long hard look at your build/skill. The GWF I run with isnt a "leet mad skills pro-gamer" or a "wallet warrior with godlike gear" He just saw another GWF do crazy damage in a run, asked how, and was referred to Lazalia's GWF build for Mod 6. Thats it! No special magic, no haxx, just read the thread, adjusted his spec/gear according to Lazalia's outline, and started dishing out insane dps.

Final Note for Non-GWF's - Crusading for PVE nerfs to GWF's is cutting your nose off to spite your face. GWF damage is sufficient for the content you are up against in t2 dungeons and not excessive in the least. They arent one-shotting Enforcers or Hexers or anything ridiculous, they are just cutting through their HP fast enough that every elite mob doesnt feel like a freaking mini-boss. If you want to make noise about PVE dps, dont point and say "Nerf thay guy!" - point and say to the dev's "I want my class to be on that level too!".

Addendum - In case the numerous times the word PVE has been used in this post (and the thread title) isnt sufficient, all of the above are my views regarding PVE ONLY as I dont pvp.

Regards.

olafthegreat · May 2015

lostmatuh set has nothing to do with gwf damage being a lot.... yes im wearing it but you can still do tons of damage without it with a good build

just sharing from lia''s thread i dont think shes wearing the set or anyways it doesnt show on the logs- http://i.imgur.com/zLSywD1.jpg

i dont think it should be nerfed but we should get buff in pvp because you cant build all the stacks in there like you can in pve..

zvieris · May 2015

olafthegreat wrote: »

i dont think it should be nerfed but we should get buff in pvp because you cant build all the stacks in there like you can in pve..

omg. I'm already 1 rotationing ppl with my Destroyer GWF, even geared ones. Please don't buff it anymore.

Although Sentinel and Instigator have to be reworked ASAP.

zacazu · May 2015

some points:

1 - gwf/destroyers have some tradeoff even in your primary function. this is a fact. if is to up a lot the general damage to other classes - nothing against some conservative buffs - well. i want a lot of utility buffs. is fair, no? again, iam exclude sws IF is not buffed in some fast-range-aoe type of damage.

2 - yes, in my opinion dont make sense change destroyers to pvp if you have 2 useless trees. unless they decide to unify / rework the three trees.

3 - the small diference between wms and sure striker and the huge difference between spinning strike and crescendo just show what iam say in the past: up the range-radius of the aoe powers to "reaping strike size" ...

ps about item 1: iam exclude basic heroic encounters and solo adventure in general. gwf is a mini god in this if learn 2 or 3 evasive movements (or be a super geared guy).

flyingleon · May 2015

Maybe sword master path is OP? Definitely not IV path. My Cw could still do much more damage than my gwf with similar gear level.

pando83 · June 2015

GWFs are melee fighters with no shield or immunity. In current dungeons and PvE in general, they take the most risky position. So it's not weird that they deal the highest DPS compared to other classes. They also bring way less utility than other classe. Even TR with smoke bomb brings more CC.
Plus, it's also lostamauth set causing part of the big damage and lazalia's build is, by his own admission, not exactly cheap.

nazghul22 · June 2015

I tried with my lvl70 GWF in all-Mod6 gear, and either Tiamat, and the coloured dragons, and the groups of trash mobs all around the place are considerably more difficult than in Mod5. Intrinsically, Mod6 certainly did not make the GWF more powerful. It's clearly a mega nerf.

Now, were the other classes more affected by the new Mod, which would make the GWF comparatively better? It may be due to the nature of the damage that we deliver: steady and low. No burst, no aggro. The foes who kill us in solo mode now ignore us, we remain unnoticed while the DPS classes in the group get the aggro and have to handle the situation.

aderonz · June 2015

Well Destroyer GWF has no utility,CC or even tankiness all what he brings to the table is raw DPS, and that's what the tree is intended for. In a T2 every GWF needs a DC to keep him alive and a controller to gather creeps for him.

instynctive · June 2015

aderonz wrote: »

Well Destroyer GWF has no utility,CC or even tankiness all what he brings to the table is raw DPS, and that's what the tree is intended for. In a T2 every GWF needs a DC to keep him alive and a controller to gather creeps for him.

Frontline Surge = CC. Not great, but better than nothing.

grabmoore · June 2015

This ACT shows nothing. Obviously it's taken out of Tiamat with buffs or with the Companion influence bug/buff. GWFs are fine. Remove Lostmauth set and they are still fine as soon as Storm Spell mages get their nerf on SS.

flyingleon wrote: »

Maybe sword master path is OP? Definitely not IV path. My Cw could still do much more damage than my gwf with similar gear level.

Do you play a GWF? It doesn't sound like. Swordmaster and Iron Vanguard are comparable to each other. The difference is minor. Playstyle makes up for all differences.

hallacatt · June 2015

Whether Storm Spell mages need a nerf on SS is something, but it has absolutely no bearing on GWF dps. Storm Spell mages (and every other combination of dps class and spec) do a LOT less damage in pve than a GWF.

grabmoore · June 2015

hallacatt wrote: »

Whether Storm Spell mages need a nerf on SS is something, but it has absolutely no bearing on GWF dps. Storm Spell mages (and every other combination of dps class and spec) do a LOT less damage in pve than a GWF.

Rightfully so, isn't it?

I'm not even maining my GWF, but a nerf to GWFs wouldn't be what the class deserves now.

rinat114 · June 2015

grabmoore wrote: »

This ACT shows nothing. Obviously it's taken out of Tiamat with buffs or with the Companion influence bug/buff. GWFs are fine. Remove Lostmauth set and they are still fine as soon as Storm Spell mages get their nerf on SS.

Obviously saying obviously means you know the truth, right? That ACT log is mine, it was a log from eTOS, not Tiamat. No bugs, no exploits, no feytouched, no dancing blades, no nothing. Seeing big numbers and calling "halp! exploits!" won't get you anywhere. I had a GF, DC and tank Paladin with me, it's also mentioned in the original post, hence the inflated numbers.

And just in case you might call this BS because you know, everyone's obviously not telling the truth -

zacazu · June 2015

rinat114 wrote: »

Obviously saying obviously means you know the truth, right? That ACT log is mine, it was a log from eTOS, not Tiamat. No bugs, no exploits, no feytouched, no dancing blades, no nothing. Seeing big numbers and calling "halp! exploits!" won't get you anywhere. I had a GF, DC and tank Paladin with me, it's also mentioned in the original post, hence the inflated numbers.

And just in case you might call this BS because you know, everyone's obviously not telling the truth -

3 points:

1 - you do 10 times more damage than in the past? yes. now, you do the same value above other primary or secundary dps today? 10 times?

2 - in that rotation, how much you improve or protect the performance of other classes? mark gfs give too.

3 - that flat big numbers is not 10 times your main damage? so, come to buffs and debuffs, correct? now, how much that debuffs and buffs dont come to other classes?

simbolic demonstration: 13% of your damage, aura, come to other class (and your max value is 19%). and you is just one of 5. how much damage that give in general? if you audit these values and take all that buffs/debuffs and general bonus...

ps: is a burst class/primary striker (half by the way)... wait for big numbers. or no, lets back to the classical gwf purism and lost another tree. die in one hit, w/o utility and do less damage than... you know.

rinat114 · June 2015

zacazu wrote: »

3 points:

1 - you do 10 times more damage than in the past? yes. now, you do the same value above other primary or secundary dps today?

2 - in that rotation, how much you improve or protect the performance of other classes?

3 - that flat big numbers is not 10 times your main damage? so, come to buffs and debuffs, correct? now, how much that debuffs and buffs dont come for other classes? that 129k is not only yours. 13% of your damage come to other class (and your max value is 19%).

I completely don't understand your point. I never commented on the post itself, what are these points directed at? I only commented on this guy's post saying whatever he said about the graph. How many times do I need to repeat - I RAN WITH 3 MAJOR BUFFERS, THE NUMBERS ARE INFLATED. Good ****ing god. Of course it's not only mine, I never ever claimed it is, please don't make it sound like I ever said or claimed otherwise.

As for the topic - GWF's DON'T do too much damage, we're primary strikers, it's our freaking job. Now other primary strikers need to be on par and everything's good.

zacazu · June 2015

rinat114 wrote: »

I completely don't understand your point. I never commented on the post itself, what are these points directed at? I only commented on this guy's post saying whatever he said about the graph. How many times do I need to repeat - I RAN WITH 3 MAJOR BUFFERS, THE NUMBERS ARE INFLATED. Good ****ing god. Of course it's not only mine, I never ever claimed it is, please don't make it sound like I ever said or claimed otherwise.

As for the topic - GWF's DON'T do too much damage, we're primary strikers, it's our freaking job. Now other primary strikers need to be on par and everything's good.

I am not specifically answering you, I'm using his post to reinforce my point.

and no, other strikers dont should do the same damage than gwf unless abandon utility / mobility-range (and the secundary function, lets be honest). that is, stealth is just a aggro reduction, big damages dont come to cc and party debuffs, no more dodges, etc.

is just remember m4/m5... or pvp.

hallacatt · June 2015

grabmoore wrote: »

Rightfully so, isn't it?

I'm not even maining my GWF, but a nerf to GWFs wouldn't be what the class deserves now.

Yes, rightfully so - although I would prefer the gap wasn't as large as it is. But you can clearly tell from my post on the first page of this thread that I am very against nerfing PVE GWF dps.

fuglymook · June 2015

GWF's are right where they should be as a primary striker. A GWF dies just as fast if not faster in T2s as anyone else, they have no dodge and Unstoppable is anything but (You are a big red target for all the mobs). IF a GWF stands in red circles they die regardless of Unstoppable. GWFs can see insane numbers but it depends sooooo much on party make up. Bad tank then the GWF is running for their lives = no dps. Bad CW and GWF is chasing mobs everywhere = no dps. DC healing you after you are dead = no dps. Give me a GF who holds threat, a DC throwing down DG, a Renegade CW who knows what the "C" stands for and how to use Renegade buffs and then I do insane DPS. It is PVE and the goal is to win as a team and I do not care how geared a GWF is or how much dps they do they can not win by their lonesome.

blackyluke · June 2015

What? GWF is absolutely balanced.
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It is perfectly balanced.
CSaPPEn.png?1

BALANCED!

"I cant do WoD dailies, GWF is too weak!"
"Were are the promised GWF buffs?"
"I feel like I don't do enought damage in dungeons as GWF."
" I cannot survive in Tier 2s as GWF."
"GWF is soo bad in PvP!"

GWF has 1 paragon 1 featpath that is outrageous. Great. I don't mind the class is basically viable.
Sentinel sucks, but Sentinel always was garbage since you'll never be a good tank like a GF without block.
Instigator sucks, GWF cannot be utility since the Devs decided to make him a selfish class (for example Student of the Sword is only working for you.)

Were is the issue? We can abuse Lostmauth set better than any other class.
We got buffs to the strongest part of our class this module! IN THREE WAYS!
No restriction on Unstoppable? Okay thats reasonable.
Buffing WMS, WS and SS? NO WHYYYYYYYY?
Giving us an encounter that buff melee damage by 40% (Hidden Daggers)? BLOWS MY MIND!
Don't get me wrong I play SM Destroyer since over a year now. It always was good. CWs and later introduced SWs were outperforming you, but still the Destroyer was great. Making a pure DD actually dealing more damage is the right change. Overkill? Yes. Wrong way? No.

I have no idea what happened regarding this.
Not only GWF but CW too.
CW suffered since... FOREVER. From the Spellstorm paragon. People are pushed into thinking they are Damage Dealers, while the name is CONTROL Wizard. Spellstorm as an classfeature being the major damage source is hurting the class badly. The Master of Flame paragon one of the best designed and coolest paragons in the game is highly underused.
And what happened? What is the design choice to finally unlock the Master of Flame? To rebuild balance in the damage output and focus of the Control Wizard? Spell Storm is untouched!
And hey, look at CW encounters they all have an additional effect to dealing damage! Apply a debuff, chill, root or stun... LETS GIVE THEM DISINTEGRATION! Pure damage no effect.
NOW THATS WHAT I CALL GAME DESIGN!

hallacatt · June 2015

@blackyluke Im not going to address what you wrote in your post, I just wanted to say THANK YOU FOR POSTING THOSE LOGS!!! I was going to get a few together to post myself from GWFs at various gear levels, but yours illustrate my point well enough.

That should show people EXACTLY what I have been seeing myself, that it is NOT lostmauth set that puts GWF over the top. If you completely subtracted all of that lostmauth damage, it would still not come close to bridging the gulf between GWF and anything else. So to anyone pointing the finger at the lostmauth set and stating that is why GWF is so strong, look above and think again.

Regards

pando83 · June 2015

FLS is SOME cc but it's still way less than

Smoke bomb duration
Trapper rooting

Also, gwf is melee DPS with no immunity and no stealth in current 1-shotting, high DPS dungeons, compared to

TRs being the last to die, more survivable due to stealth and immunities= less risk
SW being a ranged striker with no need to continuously dodge since they fight far from red areas most of the time

So gwfs deals more DPS cause it either brings less utility o takes more risks.
When deve talk ed about pve gwf in mod 6 they talked about risks too. And a melee DPS with no shield and no immunities takes way more risks than other strikers.

OK give same DPS to other strikers. Take away their immunity, range, stealth, utility and give some temp hp shield that still gets you oneshotted in melee range if you don't dodge continuously or DC/pally fails one secondo at protecting you.

instynctive · June 2015

I feel your pain. My GWF's 14k DPS is way overpowered. Nerf that biotch.

hallacatt · June 2015

@pando You are very strongly underestimating the sturdiness that temp hp, unstoppable, and the proper use of sprint and Avalanche of Steel provides a GWF. Lazalia has several videos demonstrating the insane stunts he is able to not only survive but dominate completely solo. I think you will find other classes for the most part are unable to duplicate most of them. Most GWFs I run with in t2s don't get one-shot unless they stand in an attack they shouldn't have and most of those types of attacks have a wind-up. (Think zombie hulk smash, or enforcer shield bash, or hexer aoe, etc) Getting hit by stray normal attacks does not one-shot most GWFs and often wont even penetrate their temporary hp. Most survivability for melee dps this mod comes from proper play/positioning (EXA: Dont stand in front of the enforcer while you dps and eat a shieldbash to the face, stand opposite the tank) and move out of long wind-ups. I dont want to rant about this for too long, its up for each person on their own to learn how to play well, regardless of your class/role.

Moving on!

On your other point, other strikers don't need to have the EXACT same dps as GWF, but it would be nice if the gap was not so overwhelmingly massive. I dont know what the dev's are considering about pve dps balance (if at all), but if the only choice is between a GWF nerf or leave it alone - my vote is leave it alone and just let GWF have their dps. If some pve changes/balancing is on the table however, other pve dps could use a little boost in damage.

PVE GWF seems to be excessively powerful

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