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Arp/RI formula by gentlemancrush
beatannier
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 692 Arc User
Yesterday the developer gentlemancrush (Systems Designer) said:
So did I understood good that the formula (in PvP) is:
ID = Our Initial Damage (before any calculations)
FD = Final Damage (after all calculations)
RDM = Raw Damage Mitigation (i.e. % reduction)
FR = Flat Reductions (Temp HP, Absolution, etc)
ArP = Our Armor Penetration
CS = Our Critical Severity
DS = Foe`s Deflection Severity
DR = Foe`s Damage Resistance (general)
DRP = Foe`s Damage Resistance (PvP)
ArPR = Foe`s Armor Penetration Resistance (PvP)
CSR = Foe`s Critical Strike Resistance (PvP)
If damage was critical, it`s increased by CS and reduced by CSR:
ID = ID * (1+ CS) * clamp(1- CSR, 0, 1)
Mitigation calculation (key formula):
RDM = clamp(DR + DRP + ArPR - ArP, 0, 0.8)
Damage is recuced by Mitigation:
FD = ID * (1- RDM)
If damage was deflected, gets reduced by DS:
FD = FD * clamp(1- DS, 0, 1)
Finally, mitigated and deflected damage gets reduced by FR (like Guard):
FD = FD * clamp(1- FR, 0, 1)
Do I think good?
gentlemancrush wrote: »Raw damage mitigation (i.e. % reduction) cannot exceed 80%. No matter how much defense you stack and how many buffs you have, 20% will always squeak through.
Flat Reductions (Temp HP, Absolution, etc) are unbounded, and generally work AFTER damage mitigation (unless specifically noted).
gentlemancrush wrote: »In PVP you are going to need at least 40% to see any benefits (most players aren't running around with more than 100% resistance, but tenacity natively reduces Armor Penetration).
gentlemancrush wrote: »All of those sources are additive.
So if I have 80% Arpen Resist from Tenacity, 100% DR (added up from all sources), the target has to have a total resistance ignored of 180% to negate all of my defenses.
So did I understood good that the formula (in PvP) is:
ID = Our Initial Damage (before any calculations)
FD = Final Damage (after all calculations)
RDM = Raw Damage Mitigation (i.e. % reduction)
FR = Flat Reductions (Temp HP, Absolution, etc)
ArP = Our Armor Penetration
CS = Our Critical Severity
DS = Foe`s Deflection Severity
DR = Foe`s Damage Resistance (general)
DRP = Foe`s Damage Resistance (PvP)
ArPR = Foe`s Armor Penetration Resistance (PvP)
CSR = Foe`s Critical Strike Resistance (PvP)
If damage was critical, it`s increased by CS and reduced by CSR:
ID = ID * (1+ CS) * clamp(1- CSR, 0, 1)
Mitigation calculation (key formula):
RDM = clamp(DR + DRP + ArPR - ArP, 0, 0.8)
Damage is recuced by Mitigation:
FD = ID * (1- RDM)
If damage was deflected, gets reduced by DS:
FD = FD * clamp(1- DS, 0, 1)
Finally, mitigated and deflected damage gets reduced by FR (like Guard):
FD = FD * clamp(1- FR, 0, 1)
Do I think good?
Master of FlamePost edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
This mean that in current implementation(what ever he assumes as this week - in this patch or just in dev brunch)
ArPR = Foe`s Armor Penetration Resistance (PvP) is not working.
Also I do hope that
it is wrong as base and should never work as he describes. Reasons why described well by macjae. Instead ArPR should be multiplicative rather then additive.
Can be tested only after we have confirmed patch or some raw data from someone .
PS for sake of simplicity (I do understand what you wrote) you might update formulas to avoid *=. Instead use ID = ID * (...)
Crit Damage in PvP = base damage * (1+ total crit severity %) * (1 + RI % – DR %) * (1- TeR %)^2
We can't just adapt the calculation with Crush infos ?
Crit Damage in PvP = base damage * (1+ total crit severity %) * (1 + RI% – (DR%from DR + DR% from Arp.Res)) * (1- Tenacity%)^2 ?
Because (2) & (3), we could just simplify this once Armor Penetration Resistance (PvP) get fixed:
Conclusion:
This makes Armor Penetration Resistance (PvP) being irrational as it just triples Damage Resistance (PvP).
Did I missed something or it is really so irrational?
So... He added ArPR with DR getting 180% on all 'of his defenses'
Where does the '20% will always squeak through' apply
a> 80% ArPR + max( 100% DR, 80% DRCap ) = 160%
b> max( 80% ArPR + 100% DR ), 80% DRCap ) = 80%
c> IDK!
Short version is yes, you missed something. That said we never explicitly said it, so I will go into more detail here.
Armor Penetration on Armor (and rings/necks/etc) is now part of their base stat allocation (just like power on weapons and defense on armor). This is because we use it as part of the dungeon tier delineations (the same way WoW used to use their Hit stat, only we don't make you miss whole swings). This means, barring other sources of RI (Con or Enchants for example), wearing all of the gear of a given dungeon tier gives you exactly enough Arpen to eliminate all of the resistance enemies have. This means that as dungeon tiers increase their defenses raise rapidly, making armor penetration on critters a VERY useful stat. This also means that it uses a wildly different scale than the rest of our stats. It increases much faster than any of our other stats (so we don't have to give you ridiculous amounts of it instead) but this obviously had implications on PVP. Armor Penetration Resistance in PVP is designed to ratchet it back into what are more expected levels of piercing given that players have far less DR than foes, especially as equipment tiers rise. That said, it might be giving too much Arpen resistance (because we are looking at two differently scaling stats on two wholly different curves it is rather difficult to get them to line up).
Given these things, Arpen resistance isn't just amplifying DR. It is very simple by design.
DR - max(Arpen - ArpenRes,0) is basically how it works. As far as what things RI can reduce, it is basically anything that doesn't show up in the combat log as having Absorbed damage (which is a way to identify things that provide active shielding). If it says it grants Damage Resistance and you don't get a combat log notification that it is absorbing damage (like guardian block does) RI works on it.
As a general rule of thumb, unless otherwise stated, DR is additive up to the clamp.
EDIT: As far as 20% always going through, that is in cases where I would have more than 80% damage resistance. Even if I have 10,000% damage resistance, it still gets clamped down when damage is applied. But you would need a lot of Armor Penetration to break through that.
Ok thanks for this.
So its safe to assume ARP Resist is NOT currently working? Because ARP seems to have an impact currently and I do NOT have 80% ARP....
It seems 80% Arp Resist then is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR too high for a value. Seems if you want to use this "stat" maybe the BASE value of ARP needs to be dropped to 0%, then when you scale ARP up with Tenacity itll be a max of 40%?
If PVE mobs max at 80% it seems a player with 80% should be able to negate out quite a bit of ARP in PVP but that almost seems to be the "buy in" to even get ANY value from it since nearly everyone has 80% ARP resist. So its basically forcing players to either ditch it completely or OVER stack it to a crazy high amount of ARP.
Or maybe you can change the formula?:
DR - max(Arpen * (1-ArpenRes,)0)??
This way it is effectively (ARP*20%) = the actual ARP value?
This makes someone with 80% ARP knocked back to 16% ARP which seems MUCH more "inline" with what PVP players have. I mean 80% RI is ALOT of ARP....
OR another option is to make ARP resist like Recovery:
DR - max(Arpen/(1 + ArpenRes),0)
This actually makes ARP a very strong stack to stack - which it NEEDS to be otherwise classes like DC and OP will be unkillable 1v1 (which they already are).
Thanks for clarification
This doesnt make sense though because Unstoppable shows up as having absorbed damage however things like piercing damage go right through it, where they dont on block or CW shield....
So what is unstoppable then? Is it DR or Damage Absorb?
I know a good way to think about this (for other players) is that Barkshield cannot be mitigated by ARP - however Barkshield also absorbs ALOT more than it says it does it shows like:
Barkshield absorbs 10,000 (800) damage from <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
Unstoppable also says: Unstoppable absorbs (or maybe mitigates) 12314 damage from XXXXXX
So.... Can we get clarification on Unstoppable? It seems logical that this would NOT be able to be hurt by DR and thus piercing damage cannot go through it (liek GF block, CW shield and OP Block)
Unstoppable grants Temp HP, which is a form of shield. Temp HP should in most cases show the same text as other shields (being that it is one internally). It also grants Damage Resistance, which can be pierced.
I guess what I am asking is: You said earlier Temp HP is an "after the fact" number but it seems Temp HP drops VERY quickly and is not being buffed at all by DR? So its effectively much much less than it seems.
Also can we get a potential CHANGE to Unstoppable Damage Resist so its works like GF block?
CW/OP/GF all get their "mechanics" to be on a seperate layer of DR, so why cant GWF too. This is one of the big issues with the class is a TR with "Shadowy Opportunity" just spams Cloud of Steel during Lurkers Assault and it melts our HP - Unstoppable or not.
Its almost like (because of piercing damage) that Unstoppable DR is nearly worthless - we have zero active ways to defend against that - not even sprint helps there.
Maybe Piercing damage should be changed to 100% ARP bonus on those attacks which then allows this "fixed" ARP Resist to help us in PVP to counter that.
OR maybe just fix Unstoppable to be on its own layer LIKE CW shield so we can counter a TR throwing daggers in stealth?
Also, any thoughts on potentially changing the ARP Resist as its seems FAR too punishing for players. Most Players are not walking around with 80% + ARP meaning the get no benefit from ARP in PVP....
So sorry this is unrelated (tried sending you a message, but your inbox is full.)
Are you aware of the Ioun of Radiance 15% Legendary bonus shedding off every minute? It doesn't look like there's a problem with any other augment (Chicken seems to be stable, although the 15% of the Chicken only works if you slot another Legendary companion next to it, odd bug.) Not sure if it's just me or something collective.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
so crush what you sad - most important part is
DR - max(Arpen - ArpenRes,0)
So with what you sad I see it as correct
to negate 80% ArpenRes that gives tenancy and do some damage above mitigation level you need 80% Arm Pen.
and max(Arpen - ArpenRes,0) make Arm pen for levels < 80% redundant and useless cause you will be doing 0 added damage.
I do encourage you to read
This gives a good idea why this is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> design idea. It has not be addictive. Or at least be like 40% top (even that is too much) for 2000 tenancy. It would make more sence and work way better if it would be multiplicative or as recovery that ayroux suggests
PVE -
Also with mobs tier raise I now see why you assume there is no bug with roots. Hope you will find enough profs that roots are bugged and crazy wrong
conclusion
having ArmPenRes as addictive is worst idea as design. You negate any Arm pen till ~9k and make it give too much after. This will lead to one of last nails for average HR coffin - cause Arm Pen is one of main stats for Striker HR is. HRs needed to have good Arm Pen to at least do some damage from those low damage encounters we have.
Also Negation from what I see is absorb and is out of any arm pen tier now.
Edit: Look at what you have now against Geared player
burning gear gives
2k Tenancy
+ 40% DR
+ 80% Arm Pen resist
+ base gear DR for even HR is > 15%.
so you are gonna have player with 80% Arm Pen deal dmg *( 1- 0.65)
and player with 0% Arm Pen deal same dmg* (1-0.65)
This is now useless in pvp unless > 95%.
And we don't even count buffs and negation.
So how in hell does HR with 4k encounters kill DC with pvp gear and negation > 70% DR + negation layer?
we basically gonna do ~ 4000 * 0.2 = 800 per hit before negation or any other second layer DR ? For Char that has 90k HP????? really?
Especially the LAST part about Negation - its already a god enchant atm (one that I have BTW) however making it OUT of the range of any ARP is just WAYYYY too brutal.
Even if it WERE in the range of ARP, you would need 110% ARP just to mitigate negation enchant + 80% ARP RESIST.
Got it. Thank you. Armor Pen = worthlesss when this goes live. Got it. thank you.
No.
He posted the formula above.
If you have 80% RI and ur enemy has 80% DR you will deal 20% damage. Because his ARP resist negated 100% of your armor pen (RI).
In order for you to deal 100% damage you will need 160% ARP(RI) to bypass his 80% resistance + 80% DR.
BTW - according to a quick regression model it takes 13,000 ARP to = 100% ARP. So you need to stack ARP to a MINIMUM of ~9,500 to be ~80%. So uless you stack ARP over 9,500 its better to not stack it AT ALL.
(NOTE: These are conservative values, I tried to over estimate the drop off past about 8800 ARP).
Its DURING. The first calculation you make is: Current ARP - Arp Resistance. Then multiply that number by DR (min is 0).
So if you have 80% ARP you do:
(80%-80%) = 0
So then its JUST "DR"
If you have 100% ARP its
(100%-80%) so you would have 20% ARP that THEN eats into the DR % so if they had 80% DR you would drop them to 60% DR with 100% RI
I still can't undestand why old system with arpen was ruined - just let the PvE cap be at 24% and add them hp -)) Don't try to fix the thing that work good - they forgot abt that rule -))
Burning set gives 80% ArpRes and 40% DR (PvP).
This means, First 80% ArmorPen is completelly ignored (like first 10 attribute points).
Then, every 1% of ArP pierces 1% of foe`s DR.
This means there is absolutelly no difference beetween 0 and ~9,000 ArP vs Burning set players.
So it`s best to either go full ArP (pierce foe`s DR in cost of weak, but less resisted damage) or don`t go ArP at all (stay at 80% DR, but having a strong damage base), right?
Seriously?
if what gentleman say gonna be implement then i will ditch arp stat and make tank build, oh wait i am HR.. time to take a break from this game
Hunter = has to bug abuse and perma lock target or has to go home, from what i see and hear
its the worst implemantation PVP wise since I play this game, because it just makes any other armorenchant senseless and its a question of to have or not to have this enchant !
30% additive DR is redicules considering that some classes already have high Resistance
my warlock has 9% DR....he has no dodge and no real mitigation except this crappy shadow slip, this enchant boost it for about 300%
meeting a GWF based on Dex, using negation enchant, high DR on top+ high deflect, it was impossible to get him <70% HP, he even could take a rest and look the landscape, other classes are even worse with this enchant
so speeking about a "good enchant" is, let´s say shortsighted
as i understand to max your damage go for power skip arp, and skip crit in case your crit severity is low, beacuse your crits also are reduced by 40% what means, critting get two times punished :
1. -20-40% resist against damage
2. -20-40% resist against crit
as someone posted when having low critseveritiy your crits deals similar damage than normal hits
so power + piercing damage is the only way?
So, i have 5900 ARP, 80.9% RI in fight ( 5900 give me 52.9% RI + 3% from a boon, + 25% from feats ).
Between this 2 options, your opinion :
1 ) Max my RI to reach 110% ( 80% Arp Res + 30% base DR for majority of my ennemies )
2) Just reach 40% for Pve and focus others stats.
#2 isn't really an option because 40% won't do anything in PvP. You'll get just as much value stacking 0% as you will 40%.
#1 is fine. You'll need 110% RI to give you the same value of your character on live currently having 30% RI. So that'll give you a taste of the damage.
The biggest two issues with this are:
1) anything <9,000 ARP will be worthless and EXACTLY the same as having 0 ARP.
2) classes like DC get tons of DR (up to 150%+) and then adding on ARP resist you will NEVER have your RI do ANYTHING to them EVER. They will always negate it out with extra DR and ARP resist
Problem with DC /PF ets not DR ~ 150%. It will still be capped at 80%. Problem is that DPS classes will do only 20% damage from each hit. For difference my HR does 100% -110% (buff) effectiveness to majority of DCs. And still killing DC in burning with negation 1 vs 1 , with almost perma daze is hardly done. One OP took me 10 minutes to finally take him down once.
Even if i reduce my Arp, just with Elemental weapon (purple)+ off hand (blue) + Burnig Set + Lostmauth set (purple), i have 40-45%. Fine for pve, but useless for pvp.
And, with Mith.Artifacts x4, off.enchants for Arp, rings 2 slots for Arp, economically i can, at maximum, reach 7500 Arp, so 65-70%RI ( i don't know the diminishing return for 6000+ Arp ).
So, i can reach 65/70+25 = 90-95% RI max, actually.
No problem for immortals DCs, i can't really do anything actually in 1v1 at same gear level ( 3750 ), no change with Arp. Res.
My MI-Exe will be died with the next patch for Arp.Res. This is the game, i can just try to adapt me.
Welcome in my build, piercings damages..
Yes or No are you going to make armor pen less than 8-9k worthless and all of us in rank 10's-12's to have to redo all of our enchants because you didn't implement this idea earlier?
Yes or No - Do you actually think this is a good idea at all how you have it set up? And have you tested it - by test I mean not like Feytouch/Lostmauth test, or testing NPC damage by using a pally's Oath ability... (you take no damage).
But like actually TESTED. You have a lot of people giving you the numbers, the math, the reasons this will not work. I haven't seen so many PVP players post about something and actually all agreeing.
So in short, I think in the laundry list of textures, and PVE moonstone mask updates that take priority over PVP. This is something you should think very carefully before implementing as the PVP community is already pretty fragile and only 30-40 good players still remain.
But I can't emphasize enough. Can you please tell us if you are actually going to put this in. And if you actually think this is a good idea? It seems you have been only answering enough questions to give us more questions. And enough info to explode in rage/confusion rather than maybe give us your logic for doing this because as far as I can see, with the way these numbers are working out... There really isn't a whole lot of it. You have done some good things here, minus the pally being the most OP class in healing/tanking to ever be created as an "off-tank/healer" but still! Please don't make this be you "claim to fame idea" - because it could really do a number on everyone unless you gave an actual good reason as to why you think this makes any rational sense. If you do reply, which i doubt you will. Could you include some numbers so we have something to go off of. That might save you 500 more posts of people hypothesizing what damage will be like when 8-9k armor pen is now the minimum to make the stat work.
Thank you - your biggest fan until Mod 4 - when you crushed KV,Guarded Assault and SOS in one swift patch instead of fixing glyphs lol. But still a fan, just not the biggest anymore lol.
You really need to fight a good pally. An HR will never, and I mean never kill a good pally. You shouldn't even come close. I know with a wheel you can do some burst but trust me, if you took a pally out, he was horrible.
Why would you want to kill paly when you can just outcap him? If you look at average amount of kills in GG/Domi you'll realize that armor pen is pretty balanced. If you really want these over 9k armor pen you will have to sacrifice some other stats and that's perfectly fine.
Get 4 Mythical Artifacts 1k armor pen each, Armor pen jeverly, enchants maybe even P.Terror.
Most players here act like they simply didnt want to adapt with their gear or builds, because facerolling is what they find fun.