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Tanks will be useless for T1 dungeons pretty soon.
quspiv
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,087 Arc User
I've already finished several legit T1 dungeons without tank and in a group which wasnt made of BIS geared players. This will get worse in future when people will get better gear.
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Yeah, because "tanking" isnt required. What is required is finding ways to NOT even get hit at all, with CC or a DC for instance.
This is exactly why difficulty =/= Hard hitting mobs. But they need to implement things like:
Control Immune mobs (more of them) and Mobs that cannot just be AoEd down. Things like Dodge immunity frames enable a class that normally cant tank, to tank.
Enchants like negation do this as well. This is why hard hitting mobs dont work. Because immunity frames > DR.
I'd be cool with more mobs / less damage. And some fights with control immunes that need to stay on the tank. But if you add too many mobs then single target DPS classes will be shunned in favor of GF,DC 3 CW parties.
If negation was toned down to bring back relevance too tanks. you'd also want to beef up defence : DR ratio by at least 25% , and increase the benefits of AC by a chunk also. then "tank" classes who want decent DR / armor (OP, GF, GWF) don't need Negation slotted for the extra boost and can look at other options.
It'd be cool too have a fight with Adds that cant be killed, deal insanely high damage, but have no control resist. to add a new flavor where a "support" (most likely CW) has too kite and control these dangerous but slow mobs away from the party.
things too add variation in role and require more than just TANK HEAL DPS DPS DPS or DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
i dont know about you but i want gf and cleric in my pt to give me buffs.i want cleric and gf so when i open the table to living dead section to say : 0 0 0 0 0 . I want gf and cleric to boost my ap gain. WHAT do you think you do faster with 5 dps ? I dont think so. i want lostmauth to look to one direction only. i want scorpions permanent on tank. i want tank keep aggro on beholders in kessel.
I dont invite tank or healer when i cant find.those two are my priority.
When i play cleric and i see my pt is fine with dodges i use forgemaster of flame instead the astral shield.
Tanks arent required but make the run much safer. How many deaths happen in usual non-BIS no tank party? And how many if you swap 1 dps to a tank? Besides tanks rise dps of other party members a lot more, than any dps with debuffs would do. And if you get stronger party its still good to have a tank - OP can give you at least 40s immunity, which is enough to burn most t1 bosses with well geared party and you dont have to dodge at all (actually I'd prefer tank over DC, but thats just me). Dodging brings up another problem - in non tank parties best dps usually have highest aggro and has to dodge more than hit = run takes more time.
Call it "Hardness" lol or "Endurance" and yeah, put it on Tank specific gear (so all GF sets, most OP sets, 1 or 2 GWF set)
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
In T1 with good group you can clear everything without dying due to CC and really huge dmg (talking about legit runs) Just get few CW's for perma CC and they can dodge the attacks as well. For example we had so much dmg on VT that we didnt even had to do caskets.
Paladin tank doesnt really provide any buffs unless you go in to healing path and even then it works only in 30m area IF allies stay there for at least 6s, which is kinda far from optimal.
Also what 40's immunity are you talking about? I assume it's the 20s daily + another one if you got DC mythical artifact?
Tanks are still needed for T2 because trash and bosses hit way too hard and it's hard to dodge everything.
Placing bonus stat on gear would require more work + it would allow non-tank paragons classes to access it, which is bad idea. This is why i focused on the tanking route in paragon / feast path. We dont want dps focused or healing focused class to tank the boss as well as tank + provide other stuff. This would make tanks useless again.
Tanks used to stack defence/deflect for a reason and 1-shotting mobs make these stats obsolete in favor of pure HP stacking. It won't have an impact on low def classes and would benefit tanking greatly.
what is the armor penetration from mobs if you find me the number.TANK if run with valor+his basic dr goes to maximum the 80%.
if has 60% you go to 30% .i dont know if that 30% buff it to 70% the astral shield from cleric i have to make a duo testing.SO you have a 30% +80% blocking damage with shift mechanic.
AND cryptic should fix the block bug that is a reason a player think he is useless. When my block is ok i can block for example that group before you fight syndrith. i can block all mobs.
I had a reply. Then I thought better of it.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
bettter to have 1 cw and rest damage dealers.the strikers are much better than a cw when is about damage.
what can be done is to make the game fairer. the best way to make the game more "Fair" is working what is hierarchically innate. in pve, the good start would be here:
or buff, or rework, or give some parallel function. everthing is better than that.
You don't always get a Tank and Healer in the group when you "queue Random"
Also the language barriers makes teaching other players anything impossible.
There's 10 different languages being spoke on this game... stop treating it like it has to be balanced in a way that is basically impossible...
Nonsense. You always get a tank and a healer in dungeon queues. The only exceptions are skirmishes and pvp.
Oathbound Paladin's can provide a number of buffs to the party:
Aura of Wisdom = Lower Cool Downs
Aura of Courage = Party wide extra DPS on every hit
These are just two examples, and not getting into the Justice cooldown reduction/movement buffs.
Also, the Light tree having Aura of Gifts in a nice radius is easily an extra 5k Power on even a moderately decently geared Protection spec.
Just pointing out that you are completely wrong that only "Healing Paladins" offer good party buffs... That's all! :cool:
What? I mean... What? :P
And by the way you said with good group, I guess you meant BiS, or close to BiS party I said non-BiS. How many groups like you're talking about have you met so far? I mean complete PuGs.
And as for VT I usually get invited even by strong parties as a tank not because boss requires that, but because I can run from the 1st campfire straight to glass gates, aggro and tank everything and watch them die in 1 OF timeframe. Similar with trash between 1st boss and Valindra. From some reason even 4k iLvl parties prefer tank rather than gwf/cw to do that, because its... smoother
That said, mob balancing for more HP versus more damage, like Pandaman has said, will only make tanks STRONGER. My GF generates AP, which quickly translates to DPS. That, however, is just the tip of the iceberg. With just TWO encounters, I generate a 20% buff to DPS for the entire party- with fairly high uptime. This is because Lunging Strike boosts my DR by 50%, with a base DR of 30%. Into The Fray increases party damage by 25% of my DR. With Villain's Menace (unconfirmed), I may even be putting out a 25% buff. In addition, marking targets gives automatic combat advantage and to believe the tooltip, reduces mob DR. Plus, whenever the mark fades, I've generally got bosses pointed the other way. So let's review:
-GF Tank does between 25% and 50% of what a DPS class can for DPS on his own.
-GF (Iron Vanguard) Tank brings a decent AoE CC skill to the table.
-GF Tank can buff each member of the party's damage by 20% or more, depending how the DR cap works. Not including himself or the cleric, 20% DPS buff to each of the DPS characters: This buff produces 60% of another DPS class ON ITS OWN. Plus the utility of the speed and temphp.
-GF (Tactician Featline) Tank generates AP, increases party DR. This translates to a sure trickle of DPS from dailies if the party is smart enough to use them.
All in all, my Tactician GF increases party DPS by about as much as another DPS class would, PLUS the utility of his other buffs- and the utility that having more dailies offers. If mobs get nerfed so he can take more hits and spread that AP love further, he will without a doubt be BETTER than any DPS class for the slot, just going from pure, flat buff numbers.
The queue logic was broken when mod 6 dropped. You aren't always guaranteed a tank and/or healer. Many times I random queue and I'm in a group with DPS and I'm the OP healer, no tank. I don't know if it's been fixed yet or not, I haven't random queue for dungeons in the last week.
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While I can understand the thought that tanks are an integral part of dungeon parties, there is nothing wrong with finding other ways to make a party work, IMO. Only some combinations may be truly optimal, but sometimes success is possible regardless .
The grab-bag queuing for epics may be a bleedthrough effect from that.
Neverwinter Census 2017
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These are not tank auras, just because you can use them doesnt mean you should. Even Devs recommend using the survivality auras in the other thread.
These auras are very little dps gain compared to how much survivality you and your party lose from aura of truth and protection.
By good group i meant at least 2 CW's, because they can CC the adds and kill them even without tank help. Also i'v ecompletely different experience. For trash tank is not needed usually, because they can be CC'd. However for bosses tank makes it easier for low skilled players who cant dodge red or kite.
Armor pen on mobs is not the reason why tanks are useless. It's the fact that most of the dmg can be dodged and most trash can be CC'd to the point where no tanking is needed.
Edit: Also enforcing roles in dungeons can work just fine. RIFT is the perfect example of that and yes dps + supports have rather long queue's while healers and tank get nearly instant pop.
That being said, the Dev's play how they want, as do you... And as do I. Though, please don't be too insulted but I will stake my knowledge/experience over both yours and the Devs combined. :cool:
And once again it depends on party composition and skill level, and what dungeon your running, etc. All mitigating factors... But you already knew that, right?
Right!
There is a problem there though as a CW with tabbed shield and P negation essentially has ~55% extra DR on top of their ~7-10% base dr even with shield "diminished". But this problem is more with how Negation and shield work. Potential changes here. Lower diminished shields dr too 10% (thats still a lot in mod 6, thats 4000 def worth)
Potential change to negation, instead of providing flat DR per stack. provides a bonus to existing base DR (character sheet dr) (Each stack gives 10% bonus dr multiplicativly) This would mean that a base dr of around 30% (which is typical for most tanks) is required to have it at the same strength it currently is. This changes negation to be MORE effective on tank classes, and less effective on "Dps" classes
Obviously these are simply ideas and may or may not be "balanced" number-wise
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
only base dr counts on into the fray buff not the buffed. and is 25% at rank 1 50% rank 2 75 % rank 3 100% rank 4.
I suggested this also before mod 6 went live. I think the general complaint from people was that then Tanks would be too tanky in PvP and DPS would be too "Squishy"
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Not only that, but if you test aura of truth, you will learn it isn't working