Defense/Damage Reduction-Is there a cap?

rubytrue · May 2015

I remember reading that defense/damage reduction for players is capped at 50%; is that still true under Mod6? Can someone give a good explanation of how the defense mechanic works in-game and how defense, AC and deflection work together?

Thanks

rubytrue · May 2015

Here is a writeup silverkin did a while back, but I don't know if it still applies:

http://guidescroll.com/2013/05/neverwinter-gf-defense-deflection-and-damage-reduction-analysis/

gentlemancrush · May 2015

Short version as follows.
Raw damage mitigation (i.e. % reduction) cannot exceed 80%. No matter how much defense you stack and how many buffs you have, 20% will always squeak through.
Flat Reductions (Temp HP, Absolution, etc) are unbounded, and generally work AFTER damage mitigation (unless specifically noted). Paladins by their design are supposed to attempt to marry these two things to provide incredible durability. Also, as a note (for those who love tanking), Guardian Fighter "Block" is part of the second group. It actually provides a shield that prevents damage post mitigation.

zvieris · May 2015

gentlemancrush wrote: »

Short version as follows.
Raw damage mitigation (i.e. % reduction) cannot exceed 80%. No matter how much defense you stack and how many buffs you have, 20% will always squeak through.
Flat Reductions (Temp HP, Absolution, etc) are unbounded, and generally work AFTER damage mitigation (unless specifically noted). Paladins by their design are supposed to attempt to marry these two things to provide incredible durability. Also, as a note (for those who love tanking), Guardian Fighter "Block" is part of the second group. It actually provides a shield that prevents damage post mitigation.

May I ask, how does DR interacts with RI? Say my Paladin has 80% DR and I'm fighting mob/player with 80% RI, will Circle of Power (+25% DR) help me or not?

gentlemancrush · May 2015

zvieris wrote: »

May I ask, how does DR interacts with RI? Say my Paladin has 80% DR and I'm fighting mob/player with 80% RI, will Circle of Power (+25% DR) help me or not?

This is a complex question. Your resistance can be tracked as high as you can get it, but you will never resist more than 80% of incoming damage. However this has an interesting interaction with Armor Penetration. Since it is removed from your total damage resist, if you have enough Damage Resistance you can successfully negate someone's armor penetration. Lets look for a moment at a case where I have 100% DR. In this case, a player with 20% Armor Penetration will see *no* benefit from his ARP, because my defenses still only get reduced to 80%, which is the cap. So, another way to think of it is to look at Defenses beyond 80% as armor penetration depression.

championshewolf · May 2015

gentlemancrush wrote: »

Unrelated question more of a concern from me being a tank (as you know me from Champs

) but it's more of a concern with tier 2 content. I have currently the 2058 I believe ilvl and best I can afford in enchantments and gear, still working on things, but in content like Throne of the Spider even when I am blocking I am being totally destroyed with temp HP and over 115k HP as is through my block, and was wondering is that intended? Seems a bit too rough for tanks in that scenario.

zvieris · May 2015

gentlemancrush wrote: »

This is a complex question. Your resistance can be tracked as high as you can get it, but you will never resist more than 80% of incoming damage. However this has an interesting interaction with Armor Penetration. Since it is removed from your total damage resist, if you have enough Damage Resistance you can successfully negate someone's armor penetration. Lets look for a moment at a case where I have 100% DR. In this case, a player with 20% Armor Penetration will see *no* benefit from his ARP, because my defenses still only get reduced to 80%, which is the cap. So, another way to think of it is to look at Defenses beyond 80% as armor penetration depression.

Amazing. Thanks for your reply!

Unknown · May 2015

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gentlemancrush · May 2015

What Feat path did you take?

Paladin tanks by their nature have a short ramp up before they can really get rolling. Leading with a powerful defensive tool (like Circle of Power or Binding Oath) followed by careful timing of activating Exemplar of the Light or Vigilance is an important set of techniques to give you wildly increased durability. While it is possible to tank as a Justice or Light paladin, it is substantially harder, especially on longer fights where Holy Barrier and your other defensive feats get chances to kick in and contribute quite a bit of defensive power. Paladins are going to be very reliant on their power and feat choices to determine their tanking power. I also recommend running defensive Auras (Truth and Protection are solid choices). It is also important to not just spam your dailies as fast as possible. Try to get the most you can out of each cast and roll as many of your feats as possible. All our testing had me tanking the dungeons right around 2200 (I think my actual build was 2256), and we were doing fine but were struggling to hit all the DPS walls

. Unless I made some horrible error it was rarely a tank just dropping under fire.

metalldjt wrote: »

so whats the formula of
how 80% armor penetration resiliance, how does it affect Armor penetration?
does this affect Resistance Ignore % from CON aswell?
or only armor penetration as a stat that you gain from Dark enchantments,items etc.

can u offer the formula so that we know how much do we need to stack for future references?

All of those sources are additive.

So if I have 80% Arpen Resist from Tenacity, 100% DR (added up from all sources), the target has to have a total resistance ignored of 180% to negate all of my defenses.

Unknown · May 2015

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championshewolf · May 2015

Hrmm, guess I will do some looking and adjusting to my feats then see what I can come up with.

gentlemancrush · May 2015

metalldjt wrote: »

so what are you advicing me to do
i have 2000 armor pen = 20% RI
and 14% RI from CON

should i put more armor penetration, will that make any difference? if so how much do u advice me to get? (still speakin about PVP)

In PVP you are going to need at least 40% to see any benefits (most players aren't running around with more than 100% resistance, but tenacity natively reduces Armor Penetration).

zvieris · May 2015

gentlemancrush wrote: »

All of those sources are additive.

So if I have 80% Arpen Resist from Tenacity, 100% DR (added up from all sources), the target has to have a total resistance ignored of 180% to negate all of my defenses.

That's worrying. Let's agree that no-one will go for 100% RI or above, so does that mean that every class with burning pvp set and ~20% DR will negate all the RI? DPS classes being as tanky as tanks is not right, imho.

Unknown · May 2015

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gentlemancrush · May 2015

zvieris wrote: »

That's worrying. Let's agree that no-one will go for 100% RI or above, so does that mean that every class with burning pvp set and ~20% DR will negate all the RI? DPS classes being as tanky as tanks is not right, imho.

No, your RI will scale up rapidly because it doesn't use the same formula as other stats. You can quite easily get to 60+% RI.

zvieris · May 2015

gentlemancrush wrote: »

No, your RI will scale up rapidly because it doesn't use the same formula as other stats. You can quite easily get to 60+% RI.

But getting 40% tenacity which equals to 80% ArPen resistance is even easier. I'm at 79% simply from the tenacity Burning set provides.

thedemien · May 2015

gentlemancrush wrote: »

In PVP you are going to need at least 40% to see any benefits (most players aren't running around with more than 100% resistance, but tenacity natively reduces Armor Penetration).

you might want to check that - cause from what I saw before tenancy does not reduces Arm Pen as intended by that new effect. At least it was so 2-3 weeks ago. this is actually known exploit

zvieris · May 2015

metalldjt wrote: »

any thoughts on makin unstoppable on GWF be part of the second group?

Wondering about this too.

gentlemancrush · May 2015

thedemien wrote: »

you might want to check that - cause from what I saw before tenancy does not reduces Arm Pen as intended by that new effect. At least it was so 2-3 weeks ago. this is actually known exploit

This was a known bug I fixed here this week

thedemien · May 2015

gentlemancrush wrote: »

This was a known bug I fixed here this week

well now you for sure need to fix HR bugs. cause otherwise we will kill nothing at all ever. now even in pvp.
On a side note HR need fix for control strength/ arm pen bug fixes/ cordon & hindering work with trapper feet. Id also like to see +15% buff for damage with some not perma control fix for crushing.

PS apologies for thread steal) 20% of damage throw unstoppable is actually good. Cause well even now Gwf chicken run from "skilled" player make it nearly impossible to kill since Control does not apply.

ayroux · May 2015

gentlemancrush wrote: »

All of those sources are additive.

So if I have 80% Arpen Resist from Tenacity, 100% DR (added up from all sources), the target has to have a total resistance ignored of 180% to negate all of my defenses.

I dont think this is how it works Crush.......

Im not sure the exact formula you guys use but I would almost be willing to bet its the same as the Recovery formula....

Where its something like ARP/(1+ARP resist)

So if you have 80% ARP, its an effective 44.45% against other players......

I dont think additive works with in game trials... I went from 14% ARP against a player to 40% ARP against the same player and it increased my NET damage throughput by 11%.

He had 40/80% Tenacity as well as was a GWF with countless scars AND negation meaning his DR was well above even the 60% DR number.....

Would be awesome to get the exact math Crush!

BTW - GLAD TO SEE YOU BACK ON THE FORUMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ayroux · May 2015

gentlemancrush wrote: »

This was a known bug I fixed here this week

ummmmm This week as in it went LIVE this week or this week as in itll be in a future patch.

You guys really need to be more clear on this stuff, some of your players test and test and test and invest a TON into items based on testing (because thats how much things cost) on stats like ARP...

If ARP IS supposed to work as you say.... Then youll need to get 80% ARP just to negate out Tenacity. Meaning if you dont stack it to atleast 8k+ itll do NOTHING for you?

That seems REALLY bad design IMO. It also makes ability scores worthless that provide ARP.

Think of it this way.

If I can get 8k ARP or 8k Power. 8k Power is what, 20% more damage? 8k ARP does what? NOTHING because its mooted out by ARP resist??!?!

..........................

This will only create a FURTHER divide between PVE and PVP players because PVP players wont want anything to do with ARP, PVE players will stack it to the required max.....

It should work as I posted above IMO

Final ARP = Current RI / (1+ARP Resist)

This means if you are at 80% that equals the 45%ish number i posted earlier.

Either THAT or make ARP resist Additive as you said but at the 40% number. This way its a manageable number to get to.

Stack ARP to 6k and youll have 60% which would be a NET 20% increase to damage roughly...

Unknown · May 2015

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Unknown · May 2015

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ayroux · May 2015

macjae wrote: »

Wait, what? If it works like this, this produces some fairly worrying and illogical effects in terms of stats. First, it means that up to a certain point, Armor Penetration/resistance ignored offers no benefit whatsoever -- being about 40% for a target that has no PvP gear, and requiring at least 80% for a target with full standard-issue PvP gear. So you can stack thousands of points into this stat and see no effect.

Then, once the appropriate threshold is reached, the benefits will accrue very quickly. For example, if a target has 30% DR, and you reduce that by 10%, that's effectively about 14% more damage.

So for roughly the first 8,000 points of Armor Penetration stacked, you see 0 effect, and then for the next 1,000 or so stacked after that, you'll see at least a 10% damage boost, depending on the target.

In a system that's otherwise based on multiplication, it seems very peculiar to introduce such additive threshold values. It means the Armor Penetration stats on PvP gear is completely wasted unless additional Armor Penetration is stacked. It means there's a band in which it is meaningful to stack Armor Penetration for PvP -- from maybe around 8,000 to about 12,000 -- anything more or less will be wasted. Unlike any other stat, where there is a value to be had without having to reach a particular threshold first.

Obviously, this has a profound impact on how character stat stacking looks. It seems like this approach may invalidate stacking Armor Penetration in PvP altogether in favor of just stacking Power.

It does have the positive effect of making stacking Defense looking worthwhile. But just having a multiplier effect on Armor Penetration would have achieved that as well; an 80% reduction in effectiveness of resistance ignored/armor penetration would mean roughly 1% per 500 Armor Penetration rather than 1% per 100, which is behind the curve of other stats, but never being without any effect.

There's another thing about the Tenacity system that I also find can have consequences that feel a bit awkward: That critical resistance seems to multiplie the full damage of a critical hit. That means that at 40% tenacity, a character with baseline critical severity will barely see any return for scoring a critical hit (1.75 × 0.6 = 1.05); if characters could get to 43% tenacity, that would mean they'd start taking *less* damage from critical hits at base severity than from normal hits.

Amen to this.

The crit thing was something that I have noticed as well. Crits are a 5% damage boost overall. With Vorpal you can build it higher and crit severity but if they ever introduce new PVP rings with tenacity, or players decided to stack lv l60 gear with tenacity instead you WOULD have negative damage on crits (less than BASE damage)

Which then makes CRIT worthless.... So with ARP worthless and Crit worthless...... Everyone will buy radiants! Woohoo LOL!

Unknown · May 2015

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ayroux · May 2015

metalldjt wrote: »

well if armor pen resistance is additive and works on the same layer as DR and you get up to 180% togheter, the target needs to get as much as armor pen as he can like 100% RI, and there will be 80% DR left that will mitigate the remaining damage, after tuat the rest of 20% damage is mitigated again by 40% Damage Resistance from tenacity, that is working on another group. i dont see nothing wrong with this.

now my gwf can get up to
15-30% DR from unstopable
30% from sprint
15% countless scar
30% negation
and 25% DR from the stats.

Lets add this up on a minimum level.

15% Unstop + 15% Countless + 30% Negation + 25% DR + 80% ARP Resist = 165%

So you will need about 20,000 armor Penetration to even see ANY difference. If you stack it to 15,000 which would be maybe 150%? You STILL wont net out his DR.

So what he is saying is ARP resistance basically will negate up to 80% RI. So again, you will need 8k ARP just BREAK EVEN and NOT GAIN ANY DAMAGE BONUS against a target with 80% ARP RESIST.

So why would ANYONE even use ANY armor pen? Since you cant get to 165%+?!

Unknown · May 2015

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ayroux · May 2015

macjae wrote: »

You don't need to reduce his DR to 0 to see a significant difference. He has 85% DR (though the effectiveness is capped at 80%) and 80% resistance, so you need 85%+ ArP to start having an effect. First 8,500 or so Armor Penetration makes no difference. Then you're past that threshold, you'll see a pretty huge boost: If he's mitigating 80% of your damage, knocking that down by 1% is about a 5% damage increase.

So the first 8,500 Armor Penetration: No effect. Zero. Go to 8,600 Armor Penetration and net damage against him increases by 5%. If you totally nullified his DR (which might occur somewhere around 16.5k-18k, depending on how dim returns works), the effective damage bonus would be 500%.

Correct. Which means you nullify a VAST majority of the player base who are not able to stack ARP up to 8,500+ on their gear without losing significant value elsewhere.

Also 85% DR is peanuts. a GWF can get that with just a full Unstoppable. DCs for instance can get 100%+ DR easily.... Meaning ALL your ARP is worthless.

Only have 6k ARP? Worthless.
Have 10k ARP but facing a DC? Worthless.

Also 8600 stats would give you 21.5% damage boost BTW so again it makes ARP worthless by comparison.

10k damage @ 21% effective value = 2100
VS
12150 @ 20% effective value = 2430

So I dont know exactly where break even would be, but it is just a very very poor mechanic to implement this way. ARP shouldnt be a "god stat" either, but additive does NOT work.

It either needs to be:

PVP ARP = RI*(1-ARP Resist) = 20% * your RI value for most in PVP. 100% ARP = 20% ARP.

OR

PVP ARP = RI/(1+ARP RESIST) = RI / 1.8 for most players. 100% ARP becomes 55.56% ARP.

The latter is more powerful, but ONLY because of Negation. If you fix/nerf/remove Negation from ALL of this, ARP loses significance and value and a "balanced" build is required since you will lose the value of ARP around 50%.

So I guess what I would rather see is a "RI / 1.8 for most players" formula and then a nerf or a "CD" (downtime) on negation so it doesnt have 100% uptime.

Then classes would have much less DR constantly, making ARP not AS important as other stats. However a good amount of ARP (8k) would nullify most players DR

Then you need to fix Fire Wheel being piercing or else itll hit TOO hard.

luthandrose · May 2015

Why even worry about DR and ARP with all the piercing damage there is with HR/TR? Fix that first and then this conversation might have more value.

Unknown · May 2015

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Defense/Damage Reduction-Is there a cap?

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