Hey Crush, I saw you have done a lot of replying lately so I thought i'd ask you here!
There is an interaction with aura of courage / Vengeance, and HR that causes a paladin too kill himself and nearby people. there also seems too be some interaction in PVP with it also. Is this an issue that you are aware of currently?
For the HR I believe it is caused by either careful attack, or the slashers mark daily. I have a video if you would like also that showcases this.
Also, in PvP. I was fighting a GF, when suddenly my HP ticked down to 0 in a few seconds. Looking at combat log, my Aura of courage DPS'd me to death with about 10-15 ticks a second. I did have a HR on my team at this time, But I do not believe he was nearby so I feel this may be some other interaction with a GF power / feat. It may be guarded assault.
Just wanted too let you know, as this bug can potentially affect PvE as well as PvP.
RI doesn't go to negatives
so if the enemy has 160% DR and u have 80% RI u will negate half of his DR with that, meaning that he will only mitigate 80% of the income damage and you deal only 20% of it , so in other words more RI less mitigation.
Which means that your 80% RI did absolutely NOTHING since you could have 0% RI and still deal 20% damage.
RI doesn't go to negatives
so if the enemy has 160% DR and u have 80% RI u will negate half of his DR with that, meaning that he will only mitigate 80% of the income damage and you deal only 20% of it , so in other words more RI less mitigation.
Well yes.. But there is a 80% DR cap so that 80% RI was effectively useless, In fact. you'd need over 8,000 MINIMUM just to get past tenacity, and then you have their actual DR to go through. I think it should be multiplicative, thus if you have 80% RI from arpen , and they resist 80% of it, then only 16% of that RI is actually applied. Arpen resist, also makes piercing damage, FAR FAR FAR more powerful in mod 6 as it ignores DR (and arpen / arpen resist) entirely in the case of shadowy opportunity and oppressive darkness (which deal damage based on Weapdmg and just a general additional amount) , At least things like combat Hr's piercing is based on the damage dealt, as is Shadow of demise.
(though in general, I hate piercing damage, either give all dps classes some source of it, or get rid of it and boost dps other ways)
So if you have 80% ARP, its an effective 44.45% against other players......
I dont think additive works with in game trials... I went from 14% ARP against a player to 40% ARP against the same player and it increased my NET damage throughput by 11%.
He had 40/80% Tenacity as well as was a GWF with countless scars AND negation meaning his DR was well above even the 60% DR number.....
Negation is a separate layer of DR like Shield and Tenacity, and is multiplicative vs all other sources of DR (like Shield and Tenacity, essentially it's the same thing, just in the form of enchant stacks). RI does not pierce this. In raw formulas, if you go with 40% tenacity, no DR and 10 stacks of negation (30%), the damage formula goes: DMG * (1 - 0.4) * (1 - 0.3) = 42% effectiveness (total damage mitigated by around 58%). I can provide ACT logs for this although I'm sure you can test it yourself.
Additionally Tenacity Armor Penetration Resistance currently does not work on live (unless the latest patch fixed it, I haven't been online yet but if it's the same patch that was on preview last night, then I don't think so). I reported this issue a few weeks back. Full value of ARP goes through atm, which is why you weren't seeing much difference between 14% and 40% ARP, because if you said it was a net damage increase of 11%, then the opposing player would have had 25% DR, and 15% ARP would be wasted.
Also, I believe several GWF DR increases, such as Countless Scars and Sprint, are on a separate DR level similar to negation/shield/tenacity, and is thus multiplicative and unmitigatible, so your maths is off over there.
We will see the formulas once this change is live. I always thought that Arp Res, due to the insanely high number, was going to be multiplicative with your RI stat, i.e. 60% RI vs 80% Arp Res (40% tenacity), ends up being 12% RI against your DR. This is the kind of formula that would make more sense and would work better than having Arp Res as an additive value.
Short version as follows.
Raw damage mitigation (i.e. % reduction) cannot exceed 80%. No matter how much defense you stack and how many buffs you have, 20% will always squeak through.
Flat Reductions (Temp HP, Absolution, etc) are unbounded, and generally work AFTER damage mitigation (unless specifically noted). Paladins by their design are supposed to attempt to marry these two things to provide incredible durability. Also, as a note (for those who love tanking), Guardian Fighter "Block" is part of the second group. It actually provides a shield that prevents damage post mitigation.
I know this is partially in the wrong forum, but this is something that I have always wanted to know as a curiosity, but that is impossible for me to determine via testing as it isn't possible to stack my stats high enough to test it.
The CW shield, does it provide raw damage mitigation, or not.
For example, say my CW had somehow reached 32k defense and thus had 80% dr. If I put up shield on tab, would I still mitigate only 80% of incoming damage, or would I mitigate 96% of incoming damage (1- 100%*0.2*0.2) assuming that the shield was not popped. Or, am I calculating it completely wrong and does it work in a different way, thanks.
Also, could you please provide a list of any features that exist that function as listed above, I.E, functioning as resistances independent of the DR cap, as it is something that I find would be really useful for players to know.
I know this is partially in the wrong forum, but this is something that I have always wanted to know as a curiosity, but that is impossible for me to determine via testing as it isn't possible to stack my stats high enough to test it.
The CW shield, does it provide raw damage mitigation, or not.
For example, say my CW had somehow reached 32k defense and thus had 80% dr. If I put up shield on tab, would I still mitigate only 80% of incoming damage, or would I mitigate 96% of incoming damage (1- 100%*0.2*0.2) assuming that the shield was not popped. Or, am I calculating it completely wrong and does it work in a different way, thanks.
Also, could you please provide a list of any features that exist that function as listed above, I.E, functioning as resistances independent of the DR cap, as it is something that I find would be really useful for players to know.
I assume the shield is on its own layer of defense, thus when you mitigate your 80% then the shield mitigates whatever is left of that 20% damage you take. That or the shield mitigates damage first then your DR kicks in. Thus 16% would be mitigated then 80% of whatever is left.
Thanks for clearing some issues I had with understanding how DR works gentlemancrush. Now I have 2 problems left:
1. Can you tell us the % of mobs armor pen on T2 dungeons? Is it the same for all mobs, or do bosses have higher?
2. Many bosses (scorpions on lol, lostmauth itself, syndryth and occasionally other bosses) deal very high damage to me... until I die, or my SF procs. For example Lostmauth - 160k melee attacks (no sanctuary, since I know it bugs and sometimes doesnt work even though it looks as it would) until I die, or whole fight if I dont. After that - 40-50k until end of battle. Syndryth can hit me for as much as 300k+ with her swing (max I saw was about 450k, but Im not sure if it wasnt some redirected hit from DP). After death - 60-80k. It came to a point where I intentionally die at the beginning of eToS last boss fight, so my DC can cast Anointed Army after Im rezzed and fight normally. I havent reported that yet (I always forget to record that), but I dont know whats going on.
Edit. Im also unsure what is the bug here - the 300k hits before death, or 80k hits after :P
but this doesn't explain why having 0 armor pen and having more armor pen is increasing the effectiveness in damage.
the only explanation is that armor pen is a damage multiplier like damage bonus.
i heard of intimidation was amplifing with resistance ignore %.
Well he did mention it was bugged and not working (ARP Resistance)
or it's working like this
so my target has 80% DR from all sources and i have 80% RI, meaning that i will deal 100% damage , but if i have 0 % RI i will deal only 20% damage.
but tenacity armor penetration resistance might be on another dr layer
so the damage that bypassed 80% DR, it's again decreased by 80% armor pen resistance, so either it will decrease the 100% damage that bypased all the DR, or the 20% damage with 0 RI%
So if I have 80% Arpen Resist from Tenacity, 100% DR (added up from all sources), the target has to have a total resistance ignored of 180% to negate all of my defenses.
So If you had 80% ARP Resist (as most do) and 80% DR, the target has to have a total RI of 160% to negate all the defenses. Since you only have 80% RI, it would bring this player back down to 80% which was already the cap. So you could have not put ANYTHING into ARP and would have still dealt the same damage.
Look at another scenario:
If you have 80% Arp Resistance and 50% DR, but get attacked with 80% ARP, you will still have 50% DR - again the amount you would have had without stacking ANY ARP.
Now if you have 100% ARP - 80% REsistance = 20% ARP AFTER ARP resistance, NOW you will see a benefit.
This is ALSO supported by one of his other comments:
In PVP you are going to need at least 40% to see any benefits (most players aren't running around with more than 100% resistance, but tenacity natively reduces Armor Penetration).
The BASE "ARP RESIST" that a player has without stacking tenacity is 40%. So this is what he meant by this... You need atleast 40% because everyone has a base 40% resistance.
So if this target did NOT stack tenacity, and you had 45% ARP you would get a 5% NET ARP after resistance that would affect their DR.
"most are not running around with 100% Resistance" - I dont know if that is even possible but this would even further make ARP worthless since you would need to then have 101%+ ARP to see even a SMALL benefit.
What makes ALL OF THIS WORSE!!! IS we dont know what "layers" of DR ARP can even reduce!!!
So take a GWF for example:
Base DR 21%
Countless Scars 15%
Negation: 30%
Unstoppable: 15%
ARP RESISTANCE: 80%
So you would THINK its all just additive:
21+15+30+15 = 81% DR.
Which in this case you would need ATLEAST 82% ARP to even see his DR values be mitigated to 79%.... HOWEVER
Some of these "DR layers" are NOT affected by ARP resistance.
So on the above, stacking 100% ARP might seem like a good idea because you would "NET" his DR down to (81%DR+80%ARP RESIST - 100% ARP) = 61% Meaning you got a BIG boost in damage (like almost 100% Boost in damage!!!!!).
HOWEVER
If these other "layers" like Countless Scars and Negation are on a different layer.... Then it may NOT be beneficial to get 100% ARP because Power would then potentially out perform.....
10,000 * ((1-36%-(100%-80%))*(1-30%)*(1-15%))*(1-40%) = 1,999.2 NET damage
However instead of 100% RI if you go for 25% Power Damage bonus:
12,500 * Same math formula (meaning you had ZERO ARP benefits): 2,856
So Power would literally THEN be MASSIVELY more effective..... Like nearly 50% MORE damage than stacking 100% ARP.....
But we dont know because they dont tell us.....
So either ARP is a 100% Damage boost in THIS scenario where Power would only be 25%.
OR Power is 50% more effective than ARP.... But we wont know..... But you see its a MASSIVE difference from just a very small way the damage is calculated.... It makes ALL the difference.
If Negation and Countless Scars are APART of a players DR that CAN be mitigated, then ARP is WAY more effective (Past 80%, meaning you need atleast 100%+ ARP for any benefits). However if they are NOT able to be mitigated then POWER is WAY more effective.
But they dont tell us.......... How is an average player supposed to make heads or tails of all this unless they spend HOURS on the forums researching all this.
What I would ask of Crush are answers to these questions:
1) Is ARP/RI and ARP Resistance currently working AS INTENDED on LIVE?
2) Is ARP/RI REALLY additive as you say, so you need a minimum of 81% ARP in PVP to get ANY benefit from the stat (since most have 80% ARP resistance from tenacity, thus 81% = 1% ARP on a player.
3) Are things LIKE Negation, Countless Scars and other "feat/enchant" buffs counted as DR that can be mitigated by ARP or not?
4) If #2 is correct (additive) can you consider making it either like Recovery (ARP/(1+ArP Res) or Multiplicative (ARP*(1-ARp REs)). Both are much better than this "additive" and "minimum 81% RI for any benefits" formula you claim.
5) Also, please consider making ARP inclusive on ALL forms of DR - so it DOES impact thing like negation.
So.. the future calculation for crit damages in pvp is ?
Crit Damage in PvP = base damage * (1+ total crit severity %) * (1 + RI% – (DR%from DR + DR% from Arp.Res)) * (1- Tenacity%)^2 ?
Ex : 50k crit damage from my Dazing Strike againt Dummies. I have 50% RI from Arp, 25% RI from feats. My ennemy has 30% RI and 42,5% Tenacity so 85% Arp. Res.
So.. the future calculation for crit damages in pvp is ?
Crit Damage in PvP = base damage * (1+ total crit severity %) * (1 + RI% – (DR%from DR + DR% from Arp.Res)) * (1- Tenacity%)^2 ?
Ex : 50k crit damage from my Dazing Strike againt Dummies. I have 50% RI from Arp, 25% RI from feats. My ennemy has 30% RI and 42,5% Tenacity so 85% Arp. Res.
Actually, i crit with Dazing strike for 50K on dummies/mobs with less of 75% DR ( so, majority of mobs ).
Actually (since mod 6), in pvp, my 50k crit damage become 13k against guys with 40% Tenacity and 10-30% DR.
So, Arp. Res works and my 13k Dazing strike is normal. Or Arp. Res doesn't work and my 13k Dazing Strike will be more mitigated in future ?
Nobody knows yet. Crush mentioned he "fixed something this week" what we dont know if that is for a future patch (meaning today its not WAI) and next week it will be with a patch. OR the fix hit this week and everything is WAI.
Ontop of that, we dont know what can or cannot be affected by ARP, so while you may add up your targets DR and say "they have 50%" some of that may be on a different "layer" that is not mitigatable by ARP and therefore even if you got MORE ARP it wouldnt matter.... So as of right now everyone is basically at a standstill until we get more info from GMC....
I know I was about to invest more $ into my character but now I dont want to because ARP may end up being worthless - who knows at this point! I know Im not spending any more $ or AD on any items until I know whats going on....
The ARPEN fix is NOT live yet to my knowledge. As for the rest of this, There is a thread in the PVP forums that has more in depth answers as to the design mentality and function of all this.
The ARPEN fix is NOT live yet to my knowledge. As for the rest of this, There is a thread in the PVP forums that has more in depth answers as to the design mentality and function of all this.
Unstoppable grants Temp HP, which is a form of shield. Temp HP should in most cases show the same text as other shields (being that it is one internally). It also grants Damage Resistance, which can be pierced.
I guess what I am asking is: You said earlier Temp HP is an "after the fact" number but it seems Temp HP drops VERY quickly and is not being buffed at all by DR? So its effectively much much less than it seems.
Also can we get a potential CHANGE to Unstoppable Damage Resist so its works like GF block?
CW/OP/GF all get their "mechanics" to be on a seperate layer of DR, so why cant GWF too. This is one of the big issues with the class is a TR with "Shadowy Opportunity" just spams Cloud of Steel during Lurkers Assault and it melts our HP - Unstoppable or not.
Its almost like (because of piercing damage) that Unstoppable DR is nearly worthless - we have zero active ways to defend against that - not even sprint helps there.
Maybe Piercing damage should be changed to 100% ARP bonus on those attacks which then allows this "fixed" ARP Resist to help us in PVP to counter that.
OR maybe just fix Unstoppable to be on its own layer LIKE CW shield so we can counter a TR throwing daggers in stealth?
Also, any thoughts on potentially changing the ARP Resist as its seems FAR too punishing for players. Most Players are not walking around with 80% + ARP meaning the get no benefit from ARP in PVP....
So basically if you PVP against people who have any gear and at the least the new burning set...
Armor Pen is worthless.
That makes zero sense at all.
2nd point -
You take a Bis GF in the protector tree
You take a Pally in the protector tree
The paladin out tanks the GF by 1000 fold. I mean literally 1000x better than a GF. And he is the off tank...
You take a max healing DC
You take a healing Paladin.
The healing paladin will out heal that DC by easily 10x as much. (Granted the paladin has a clue what he is doing). and that is an "off healer"
so why is the off tank, tankier than a GF could ever dream of including an encounter that gives longer immunity and nothing gets through it unlike Steel Defense that bugs out all the time and piercing damage goes right on by.
so why is the off healer putting out numbers that are so stupid high it makes a DC look like a flower girl? Yet, they are so good at tanking that no one plays the healer version (if they do, well they are kinda clueless).
Being someone who has played a GF since beta. I love our DPS. But there are a lot of other GF's that like to you know... Tank? And their protector dies instantly in t2 dungeons from like 2 million damage boss hits. A paladin is just immune... if he stack recovery... he can have binding oath up nearly 100% of the time. I love paladins, they are the only class that can counter a TR. But dude, they are not an off-anything. GF's are not even close to them anymore, like ... so far it is hard to use them in the same sentence.
The ARPEN fix is NOT live yet to my knowledge. As for the rest of this, There is a thread in the PVP forums that has more in depth answers as to the design mentality and function of all this.
Well gentlemancrush...just please dont totally ruin armor pen.
if 90% + armor pen is required to see any changes in damage compared to having 0% armor pen, the thing should be reconsidered
So basically if you PVP against people who have any gear and at the least the new burning set...
Armor Pen is worthless.
That makes zero sense at all.
2nd point -
You take a Bis GF in the protector tree
You take a Pally in the protector tree
The paladin out tanks the GF by 1000 fold. I mean literally 1000x better than a GF. And he is the off tank...
You take a max healing DC
You take a healing Paladin.
The healing paladin will out heal that DC by easily 10x as much. (Granted the paladin has a clue what he is doing). and that is an "off healer"
so why is the off tank, tankier than a GF could ever dream of including an encounter that gives longer immunity and nothing gets through it unlike Steel Defense that bugs out all the time and piercing damage goes right on by.
so why is the off healer putting out numbers that are so stupid high it makes a DC look like a flower girl? Yet, they are so good at tanking that no one plays the healer version (if they do, well they are kinda clueless).
Being someone who has played a GF since beta. I love our DPS. But there are a lot of other GF's that like to you know... Tank? And their protector dies instantly in t2 dungeons from like 2 million damage boss hits. A paladin is just immune... if he stack recovery... he can have binding oath up nearly 100% of the time. I love paladins, they are the only class that can counter a TR. But dude, they are not an off-anything. GF's are not even close to them anymore, like ... so far it is hard to use them in the same sentence.
This is a load of bull. First of all, Paladin is not an off-tank. It's a 100% tank. GF on the other hand, is more of an off-tank and secondary dmg dealer this mod. As for devotion paladin, he may heal more than DC but he does not have any good damage mitigation or control powers, nor dodge, unlike DC. There are situations where you simply can't get out of reds in time and Paladin will just die while DC will facetank the damage or simply dodge out.
2. Many bosses (scorpions on lol, lostmauth itself, syndryth and occasionally other bosses) deal very high damage to me... until I die, or my SF procs. For example Lostmauth - 160k melee attacks (no sanctuary, since I know it bugs and sometimes doesnt work even though it looks as it would) until I die, or whole fight if I dont. After that - 40-50k until end of battle. Syndryth can hit me for as much as 300k+ with her swing (max I saw was about 450k, but Im not sure if it wasnt some redirected hit from DP). After death - 60-80k. It came to a point where I intentionally die at the beginning of eToS last boss fight, so my DC can cast Anointed Army after Im rezzed and fight normally. I havent reported that yet (I always forget to record that), but I dont know whats going on.
Edit. Im also unsure what is the bug here - the 300k hits before death, or 80k hits after :P
Hello, its me again.
Somebody in Bug Reports made a topic where he experiences the same problem like me, with videos included: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?946881-BUG-Damage-Resistance
Yesterday Syndryth with 3 stacks of bane and smite hit me for 450k damage with simple swing.
1 more thing - it bugs from time to time, after death its ok for a few minutes but then she goes enrage again and stops after I die. Do you have any idea whats happening? I tried to remove SF, thinking its the issue, but its not that
Comments
There is an interaction with aura of courage / Vengeance, and HR that causes a paladin too kill himself and nearby people. there also seems too be some interaction in PVP with it also. Is this an issue that you are aware of currently?
For the HR I believe it is caused by either careful attack, or the slashers mark daily. I have a video if you would like also that showcases this.
Also, in PvP. I was fighting a GF, when suddenly my HP ticked down to 0 in a few seconds. Looking at combat log, my Aura of courage DPS'd me to death with about 10-15 ticks a second. I did have a HR on my team at this time, But I do not believe he was nearby so I feel this may be some other interaction with a GF power / feat. It may be guarded assault.
Just wanted too let you know, as this bug can potentially affect PvE as well as PvP.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Which means that your 80% RI did absolutely NOTHING since you could have 0% RI and still deal 20% damage.
Well yes.. But there is a 80% DR cap so that 80% RI was effectively useless, In fact. you'd need over 8,000 MINIMUM just to get past tenacity, and then you have their actual DR to go through. I think it should be multiplicative, thus if you have 80% RI from arpen , and they resist 80% of it, then only 16% of that RI is actually applied. Arpen resist, also makes piercing damage, FAR FAR FAR more powerful in mod 6 as it ignores DR (and arpen / arpen resist) entirely in the case of shadowy opportunity and oppressive darkness (which deal damage based on Weapdmg and just a general additional amount) , At least things like combat Hr's piercing is based on the damage dealt, as is Shadow of demise.
(though in general, I hate piercing damage, either give all dps classes some source of it, or get rid of it and boost dps other ways)
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Negation is a separate layer of DR like Shield and Tenacity, and is multiplicative vs all other sources of DR (like Shield and Tenacity, essentially it's the same thing, just in the form of enchant stacks). RI does not pierce this. In raw formulas, if you go with 40% tenacity, no DR and 10 stacks of negation (30%), the damage formula goes: DMG * (1 - 0.4) * (1 - 0.3) = 42% effectiveness (total damage mitigated by around 58%). I can provide ACT logs for this although I'm sure you can test it yourself.
Additionally Tenacity Armor Penetration Resistance currently does not work on live (unless the latest patch fixed it, I haven't been online yet but if it's the same patch that was on preview last night, then I don't think so). I reported this issue a few weeks back. Full value of ARP goes through atm, which is why you weren't seeing much difference between 14% and 40% ARP, because if you said it was a net damage increase of 11%, then the opposing player would have had 25% DR, and 15% ARP would be wasted.
Also, I believe several GWF DR increases, such as Countless Scars and Sprint, are on a separate DR level similar to negation/shield/tenacity, and is thus multiplicative and unmitigatible, so your maths is off over there.
We will see the formulas once this change is live. I always thought that Arp Res, due to the insanely high number, was going to be multiplicative with your RI stat, i.e. 60% RI vs 80% Arp Res (40% tenacity), ends up being 12% RI against your DR. This is the kind of formula that would make more sense and would work better than having Arp Res as an additive value.
I know this is partially in the wrong forum, but this is something that I have always wanted to know as a curiosity, but that is impossible for me to determine via testing as it isn't possible to stack my stats high enough to test it.
The CW shield, does it provide raw damage mitigation, or not.
For example, say my CW had somehow reached 32k defense and thus had 80% dr. If I put up shield on tab, would I still mitigate only 80% of incoming damage, or would I mitigate 96% of incoming damage (1- 100%*0.2*0.2) assuming that the shield was not popped. Or, am I calculating it completely wrong and does it work in a different way, thanks.
Also, could you please provide a list of any features that exist that function as listed above, I.E, functioning as resistances independent of the DR cap, as it is something that I find would be really useful for players to know.
I assume the shield is on its own layer of defense, thus when you mitigate your 80% then the shield mitigates whatever is left of that 20% damage you take. That or the shield mitigates damage first then your DR kicks in. Thus 16% would be mitigated then 80% of whatever is left.
1. Can you tell us the % of mobs armor pen on T2 dungeons? Is it the same for all mobs, or do bosses have higher?
2. Many bosses (scorpions on lol, lostmauth itself, syndryth and occasionally other bosses) deal very high damage to me... until I die, or my SF procs. For example Lostmauth - 160k melee attacks (no sanctuary, since I know it bugs and sometimes doesnt work even though it looks as it would) until I die, or whole fight if I dont. After that - 40-50k until end of battle. Syndryth can hit me for as much as 300k+ with her swing (max I saw was about 450k, but Im not sure if it wasnt some redirected hit from DP). After death - 60-80k. It came to a point where I intentionally die at the beginning of eToS last boss fight, so my DC can cast Anointed Army after Im rezzed and fight normally. I havent reported that yet (I always forget to record that), but I dont know whats going on.
Edit. Im also unsure what is the bug here - the 300k hits before death, or 80k hits after :P
Well he did mention it was bugged and not working (ARP Resistance)
To me this means that it did not go live yet, since usually GMC works on builds that are not live...
This is also not what he said. See this quote:
So If you had 80% ARP Resist (as most do) and 80% DR, the target has to have a total RI of 160% to negate all the defenses. Since you only have 80% RI, it would bring this player back down to 80% which was already the cap. So you could have not put ANYTHING into ARP and would have still dealt the same damage.
Look at another scenario:
If you have 80% Arp Resistance and 50% DR, but get attacked with 80% ARP, you will still have 50% DR - again the amount you would have had without stacking ANY ARP.
Now if you have 100% ARP - 80% REsistance = 20% ARP AFTER ARP resistance, NOW you will see a benefit.
This is ALSO supported by one of his other comments:
The BASE "ARP RESIST" that a player has without stacking tenacity is 40%. So this is what he meant by this... You need atleast 40% because everyone has a base 40% resistance.
So if this target did NOT stack tenacity, and you had 45% ARP you would get a 5% NET ARP after resistance that would affect their DR.
"most are not running around with 100% Resistance" - I dont know if that is even possible but this would even further make ARP worthless since you would need to then have 101%+ ARP to see even a SMALL benefit.
What makes ALL OF THIS WORSE!!! IS we dont know what "layers" of DR ARP can even reduce!!!
So take a GWF for example:
Base DR 21%
Countless Scars 15%
Negation: 30%
Unstoppable: 15%
ARP RESISTANCE: 80%
So you would THINK its all just additive:
21+15+30+15 = 81% DR.
Which in this case you would need ATLEAST 82% ARP to even see his DR values be mitigated to 79%.... HOWEVER
Some of these "DR layers" are NOT affected by ARP resistance.
So on the above, stacking 100% ARP might seem like a good idea because you would "NET" his DR down to (81%DR+80%ARP RESIST - 100% ARP) = 61% Meaning you got a BIG boost in damage (like almost 100% Boost in damage!!!!!).
HOWEVER
If these other "layers" like Countless Scars and Negation are on a different layer.... Then it may NOT be beneficial to get 100% ARP because Power would then potentially out perform.....
If the damage goes through this calculation:
Damage = ((1-DR-(RI-ARP Resistance))*(1-Negation DR)*(1-Countless Scars DR))*(1-Tenacity)
Then when you plug in the values:
10,000 * ((1-36%-(100%-80%))*(1-30%)*(1-15%))*(1-40%) = 1,999.2 NET damage
However instead of 100% RI if you go for 25% Power Damage bonus:
12,500 * Same math formula (meaning you had ZERO ARP benefits): 2,856
So Power would literally THEN be MASSIVELY more effective..... Like nearly 50% MORE damage than stacking 100% ARP.....
But we dont know because they dont tell us.....
So either ARP is a 100% Damage boost in THIS scenario where Power would only be 25%.
OR Power is 50% more effective than ARP.... But we wont know..... But you see its a MASSIVE difference from just a very small way the damage is calculated.... It makes ALL the difference.
If Negation and Countless Scars are APART of a players DR that CAN be mitigated, then ARP is WAY more effective (Past 80%, meaning you need atleast 100%+ ARP for any benefits). However if they are NOT able to be mitigated then POWER is WAY more effective.
But they dont tell us.......... How is an average player supposed to make heads or tails of all this unless they spend HOURS on the forums researching all this.
1) Is ARP/RI and ARP Resistance currently working AS INTENDED on LIVE?
2) Is ARP/RI REALLY additive as you say, so you need a minimum of 81% ARP in PVP to get ANY benefit from the stat (since most have 80% ARP resistance from tenacity, thus 81% = 1% ARP on a player.
3) Are things LIKE Negation, Countless Scars and other "feat/enchant" buffs counted as DR that can be mitigated by ARP or not?
4) If #2 is correct (additive) can you consider making it either like Recovery (ARP/(1+ArP Res) or Multiplicative (ARP*(1-ARp REs)). Both are much better than this "additive" and "minimum 81% RI for any benefits" formula you claim.
5) Also, please consider making ARP inclusive on ALL forms of DR - so it DOES impact thing like negation.
Crit Damage in PvP = base damage * (1+ total crit severity %) * (1 + RI% – (DR%from DR + DR% from Arp.Res)) * (1- Tenacity%)^2 ?
Ex : 50k crit damage from my Dazing Strike againt Dummies. I have 50% RI from Arp, 25% RI from feats. My ennemy has 30% RI and 42,5% Tenacity so 85% Arp. Res.
50k * (1 + 0.75 - ( 0.30+0.85 )) * (1 - 0.425)^2 = 50k * 0.6 * 0.33 = 9.9 k.
True or false ?
If true, if i don't stack any Arp, i have just 25% RI from feats :
50k * (1 + 0.25 - ( 0.30+0.85 )) * (1 - 0.425)^2 = 50k * 0.1 * 0.33 = 1.65k ?
Im not entirely sure about your math however I can tell you this. According to GMCs post:
"I have 50% RI from Arp, 25% RI from feats." - This would be completely NEGATED from ARP Resistance. So you can take your ARP out of the equation.
So basically your damage would be (BASE damage 50k?)*(1-DR "Your ARP was negated by ARP resist") * (1+Crit Severity)*(1-crit resistance)*(1-Tenacity).
Meaning if you have a base .75 severity.
50k *(1-50%) (1.75)*60%*60% = 15,750 final damage.
Your "combat log" would show this:
You deal 15,750 (87,500) damage to Player B with <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> Skill.
This is an effective value of 18%.
You would have to stack an extra 6% ARP, to then reduce their DR by 1% (assuming 80% Base) which would then boost your damage to:
16,065.
So that 6% ARP would be a 2% jump in damage.
Actually (since mod 6), in pvp, my 50k crit damage become 13k against guys with 40% Tenacity and 10-30% DR.
So, Arp. Res works and my 13k Dazing strike is normal. Or Arp. Res doesn't work and my 13k Dazing Strike will be more mitigated in future ?
Nobody knows yet. Crush mentioned he "fixed something this week" what we dont know if that is for a future patch (meaning today its not WAI) and next week it will be with a patch. OR the fix hit this week and everything is WAI.
Ontop of that, we dont know what can or cannot be affected by ARP, so while you may add up your targets DR and say "they have 50%" some of that may be on a different "layer" that is not mitigatable by ARP and therefore even if you got MORE ARP it wouldnt matter.... So as of right now everyone is basically at a standstill until we get more info from GMC....
I know I was about to invest more $ into my character but now I dont want to because ARP may end up being worthless - who knows at this point! I know Im not spending any more $ or AD on any items until I know whats going on....
I guess what I am asking is: You said earlier Temp HP is an "after the fact" number but it seems Temp HP drops VERY quickly and is not being buffed at all by DR? So its effectively much much less than it seems.
Also can we get a potential CHANGE to Unstoppable Damage Resist so its works like GF block?
CW/OP/GF all get their "mechanics" to be on a seperate layer of DR, so why cant GWF too. This is one of the big issues with the class is a TR with "Shadowy Opportunity" just spams Cloud of Steel during Lurkers Assault and it melts our HP - Unstoppable or not.
Its almost like (because of piercing damage) that Unstoppable DR is nearly worthless - we have zero active ways to defend against that - not even sprint helps there.
Maybe Piercing damage should be changed to 100% ARP bonus on those attacks which then allows this "fixed" ARP Resist to help us in PVP to counter that.
OR maybe just fix Unstoppable to be on its own layer LIKE CW shield so we can counter a TR throwing daggers in stealth?
Also, any thoughts on potentially changing the ARP Resist as its seems FAR too punishing for players. Most Players are not walking around with 80% + ARP meaning the get no benefit from ARP in PVP....
Armor Pen is worthless.
That makes zero sense at all.
2nd point -
You take a Bis GF in the protector tree
You take a Pally in the protector tree
The paladin out tanks the GF by 1000 fold. I mean literally 1000x better than a GF. And he is the off tank...
You take a max healing DC
You take a healing Paladin.
The healing paladin will out heal that DC by easily 10x as much. (Granted the paladin has a clue what he is doing). and that is an "off healer"
so why is the off tank, tankier than a GF could ever dream of including an encounter that gives longer immunity and nothing gets through it unlike Steel Defense that bugs out all the time and piercing damage goes right on by.
so why is the off healer putting out numbers that are so stupid high it makes a DC look like a flower girl? Yet, they are so good at tanking that no one plays the healer version (if they do, well they are kinda clueless).
Being someone who has played a GF since beta. I love our DPS. But there are a lot of other GF's that like to you know... Tank? And their protector dies instantly in t2 dungeons from like 2 million damage boss hits. A paladin is just immune... if he stack recovery... he can have binding oath up nearly 100% of the time. I love paladins, they are the only class that can counter a TR. But dude, they are not an off-anything. GF's are not even close to them anymore, like ... so far it is hard to use them in the same sentence.
Well gentlemancrush...just please dont totally ruin armor pen.
if 90% + armor pen is required to see any changes in damage compared to having 0% armor pen, the thing should be reconsidered
This is a load of bull. First of all, Paladin is not an off-tank. It's a 100% tank. GF on the other hand, is more of an off-tank and secondary dmg dealer this mod. As for devotion paladin, he may heal more than DC but he does not have any good damage mitigation or control powers, nor dodge, unlike DC. There are situations where you simply can't get out of reds in time and Paladin will just die while DC will facetank the damage or simply dodge out.
Hello, its me again.
Somebody in Bug Reports made a topic where he experiences the same problem like me, with videos included:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?946881-BUG-Damage-Resistance
Yesterday Syndryth with 3 stacks of bane and smite hit me for 450k damage with simple swing.
1 more thing - it bugs from time to time, after death its ok for a few minutes but then she goes enrage again and stops after I die. Do you have any idea whats happening? I tried to remove SF, thinking its the issue, but its not that
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder