test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
[PvP] ...found the ULTIMATE use for Oppressive Darkness..
mirrorballs
Member Posts: 877 Bounty Hunter
morenthar, suddenlyslow, I think you guys might be interested in this one.
I think I'm onto something here. Found a very, very interesting and effective build using Oppressive Darkness. Probably the ULTIMATE use of it... and maybe, just maybe an opening for an all-new, very technical melee-WK/ Scoundrel build.
I'll be posting the details within a day or two.
For a quick synopsis, Basically, it's a synergy between:
(A) Whisperknife/Advantageous Positioning (retain combat advantage up to 8 seconds out of stealth)
(B) Whisperknife/VP/executionerf T2 feat Determined Pursuit (40% slow for a short time)
(C) Oppressive Darkness/at-will add minor piercing damage when Combat Advantage is applied
(D) Elemental Evil mainhand power augment/CoS (25% slow for 3.2 seconds)
(E) EE offhand power augment/Oppressive Darkness (50% slow upon activation)
(F) Scoundrel survival feats: deflection boosting feats, Master Infighter (+10% DR)
(G) TR encounter: SmokeBomb
(H) TR at-will: Duelist's Flurry
(I) TR at-will: CoS or DHS
(J) enchantment: T.Feytouched
That's right, had to mix up all of the above, just to come up with a working Scoundrel build that would rise from the hell hole they've put us into since mod6 just flat-nerfed SkullCracker.
The main feature, is that you can force a continuous DF attack on the opponent. Previously, DF was very much the preferred mode of attack until up to mod4. In mod5, with the stealth depletion feature, and of course the mainstream Saboteuers TRs given a much superior alternative (in the form of CoS + SO), DF was largely discarded in usual cases, with only certain special builds (such as the Deftstrike Scoundrel build, or a few minority Sabo builds).
In mod6, with yet another major nerf to the TR in terms of stealth duration normalization, DF was finally, almost totally abandoned. Always, TRs used stealth to make up for the slow activation time of the power. When the stealth became so short in mod6, there's now hardly any time to attempt DF at all, since one or two basic attacks/setups will already have your stealth ready to come off... and of course, nobody gets hit by DF once it is visible, even if you are a superior jump-DF user.
Of course you may land one or two DFs from time to time, but with everyone's HP and defense so high nowadays, it just doesn't cut it. Unless you can consistently, subsequently, and continuously land DF, its useless... and that's one thing you can't do with DF..
...but now, with the above features functioning in synergy, you can.
This build can force the opponent into close-range, and keep him there by making use of multiple and continuous slow features. This build also uses the maximal synergy between Oppressive Darkness by having it proc with every attack of DF. The OppDark is in no way comparable Shadowy Opp, but by combining it with DF, all the little flurry hits stacks up with OppDark applied to it -- and it does help with damage. Its not super strong like SO, but a moderate amount of damage you can consistently land.
Every DF attack you use, the opponent is slowed. And the best part, DF is a 4 second attack. Once you get in the first attack of DF, the opponent is slowed throughout the entire attack. Any kind of dodge/teleport attempt, you simply follow through with gap-closing VP. At the right moment a Smokebomb laid out will daze, prevent the use of dodge/teleport, and this time, he can't simply walk outside from it. 1st attack of DF hits, the opponent is slowed, and will not be able to walk out of Smokebomb range until dissipated.
But what is the use of Oppressive Darkness, when it goes away once you unstealth? Advantageous Positioning makes sure that OppDark will continue to proc upto 8 seconds out of stealth. It will also provide with you a 20% DR against ranged attacks, combined with Master Infighter and its +10% DR for a total 30%. Provides a tough defense against ranged.
The combination of Feytouched + VP + DHS allows a very powerful damage debuff, probably one of the strongest in game. Another feature which was previously overlooked -- and with the effects of VP, Feytouched, DHS, Advantageous Positioning and Master Infighter all stacked up to one enemy, it is enough to significantly and noticeably suppress incoming damage from even the mighty CWs.
The really good part?
It's a fun build, it's not a Sabo, it's not a MI, so it doesn't have SE, doesn't have ITC, doesn't use broken OP feats like SO, has no permastealth, doesn't have any stealth related buffs to it, a minority melee-build, has probably zero "OP" thing included which the people are complaining about the TR, and it seems to work.
I think I'm onto something here. Found a very, very interesting and effective build using Oppressive Darkness. Probably the ULTIMATE use of it... and maybe, just maybe an opening for an all-new, very technical melee-WK/ Scoundrel build.
I'll be posting the details within a day or two.
For a quick synopsis, Basically, it's a synergy between:
(A) Whisperknife/Advantageous Positioning (retain combat advantage up to 8 seconds out of stealth)
(B) Whisperknife/VP/executionerf T2 feat Determined Pursuit (40% slow for a short time)
(C) Oppressive Darkness/at-will add minor piercing damage when Combat Advantage is applied
(D) Elemental Evil mainhand power augment/CoS (25% slow for 3.2 seconds)
(E) EE offhand power augment/Oppressive Darkness (50% slow upon activation)
(F) Scoundrel survival feats: deflection boosting feats, Master Infighter (+10% DR)
(G) TR encounter: SmokeBomb
(H) TR at-will: Duelist's Flurry
(I) TR at-will: CoS or DHS
(J) enchantment: T.Feytouched
That's right, had to mix up all of the above, just to come up with a working Scoundrel build that would rise from the hell hole they've put us into since mod6 just flat-nerfed SkullCracker.
The main feature, is that you can force a continuous DF attack on the opponent. Previously, DF was very much the preferred mode of attack until up to mod4. In mod5, with the stealth depletion feature, and of course the mainstream Saboteuers TRs given a much superior alternative (in the form of CoS + SO), DF was largely discarded in usual cases, with only certain special builds (such as the Deftstrike Scoundrel build, or a few minority Sabo builds).
In mod6, with yet another major nerf to the TR in terms of stealth duration normalization, DF was finally, almost totally abandoned. Always, TRs used stealth to make up for the slow activation time of the power. When the stealth became so short in mod6, there's now hardly any time to attempt DF at all, since one or two basic attacks/setups will already have your stealth ready to come off... and of course, nobody gets hit by DF once it is visible, even if you are a superior jump-DF user.
Of course you may land one or two DFs from time to time, but with everyone's HP and defense so high nowadays, it just doesn't cut it. Unless you can consistently, subsequently, and continuously land DF, its useless... and that's one thing you can't do with DF..
...but now, with the above features functioning in synergy, you can.
This build can force the opponent into close-range, and keep him there by making use of multiple and continuous slow features. This build also uses the maximal synergy between Oppressive Darkness by having it proc with every attack of DF. The OppDark is in no way comparable Shadowy Opp, but by combining it with DF, all the little flurry hits stacks up with OppDark applied to it -- and it does help with damage. Its not super strong like SO, but a moderate amount of damage you can consistently land.
Every DF attack you use, the opponent is slowed. And the best part, DF is a 4 second attack. Once you get in the first attack of DF, the opponent is slowed throughout the entire attack. Any kind of dodge/teleport attempt, you simply follow through with gap-closing VP. At the right moment a Smokebomb laid out will daze, prevent the use of dodge/teleport, and this time, he can't simply walk outside from it. 1st attack of DF hits, the opponent is slowed, and will not be able to walk out of Smokebomb range until dissipated.
But what is the use of Oppressive Darkness, when it goes away once you unstealth? Advantageous Positioning makes sure that OppDark will continue to proc upto 8 seconds out of stealth. It will also provide with you a 20% DR against ranged attacks, combined with Master Infighter and its +10% DR for a total 30%. Provides a tough defense against ranged.
The combination of Feytouched + VP + DHS allows a very powerful damage debuff, probably one of the strongest in game. Another feature which was previously overlooked -- and with the effects of VP, Feytouched, DHS, Advantageous Positioning and Master Infighter all stacked up to one enemy, it is enough to significantly and noticeably suppress incoming damage from even the mighty CWs.
The really good part?
It's a fun build, it's not a Sabo, it's not a MI, so it doesn't have SE, doesn't have ITC, doesn't use broken OP feats like SO, has no permastealth, doesn't have any stealth related buffs to it, a minority melee-build, has probably zero "OP" thing included which the people are complaining about the TR, and it seems to work.
Post edited by mirrorballs on
0
Comments
PS: Nice tweak.
PS again: Just tested on Preview. Still drops too quickly sad.
■ https://youtu.be/5I9QouuEbXQ
(Pointers: slows on the GF)
■ https://youtu.be/z7Y7XXkiJ0I
(Pointers: GWF slowed by CoS+OD)
■ https://youtu.be/EgNFjy7Kpmk
(Pointers: DC trying to move away, fails, dodges away, immediate stoppage by HK daily)
(Pointers: non-stealthed Smokebomb used on HR, HR hit by DF, slowed and cannot move away)
■ https://youtu.be/SFGmbmptlt4
(Pointers: situation begins right after above video. Again, non-stealthed SB, but TR hit by DF fails to move away)
■ https://youtu.be/PO_44Kfh1tY
(Pointers: old-school VP-tracking a la VP-"rollingslash" technique + CoS slows to catch up)
My only problem with WK builds is that, it works great if you're the aggressor against weaker players, usually in GG it works great. But in dom, I couldn't beat a good HR, as I couldn't escape the roots and dazes, I had a Transcendent Elven Battle that was working well against roots prior to last patch, but now doesn't seem to work. So I went back to the easy path with having ITC, and using negation instead of elven battle now.
Oppressive Darkness seems to do very low overall dps even if I run it with Advantageous Positioning, maybe I'll try and test it with DF a bit more.
With Feytouched, one bug (out of I don't know how many) is that for TRs, the initial proc of the buff is the 'somewhat broken one' that ticks and buffs the damage a bit more than it's suppose to, but after the first proc, you can't get the same insane buff in the same fight. This was tested with smokebome and dazing strike in my rotation. I'm not sure if the only way to reset it is to be out of combat.
Example, fighting a dragon that has a lot of HP, this is a good place to test. Initial smokebomb will proc feytouched and buff your damage by a fair amount at the start, but the rest of the duration of the fight, your damage increase by very little, and at that point every other enchant does more way damage.
Not sure if this is the same case for you, would be good to see what your numbers are like.
Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
Pain and insurmountable suffering.
...that and my own twisted mental state that needs to dig up abandoned stuff and find a use for it to claim superiority over others
Friend.. against those broken shi* trappers and their bug abuse, frankly nothing works unless you're as tough as those GWFs with constant CC breakers. Even with MIs and ITC, if the restealth timing is off.. it's just broken hell.
It's mostly for bypassing defenses. IMO Oppressive Darkness and the way it works, and damages, is probably the original form, the original intent behind piercing damage -- low~moderate levels of damage, not very impressive, but useful against very tough, or very deflective opponents. With DF, the entire damage does anywhere between 5~6k to 7~8k. Sure, it's nothing compared to the really high damage people do, but against Oppais and GWFs and GFs and those sort.. .it's still much appreciated IMO.
Yes, aware of that. The T.Feytouched keeps the damage debuff up as the tooltip says, but after the first 10 seconds your own damage buff never reapplies. Hoping to see a fix soon.
Not sure if this is the same case for you, would be good to see what your numbers are like.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, had that happen a couple of times. But I'm sure the devs would fix it in.. like.. um... maybe a year or so? LOL!
(ps) I'm actually more miffed about the devs still not being able to fix VP failing to break roots from CW and HR roots. I mean, VP is responsive enough to actually break free during Crescendo and avoid the final prone, and yet, during the entire course of being rooted, the button just goes grey and dead.
I hope I never meet you and I hope people don't copy this build, ever!
Especially the mighty ROLLING SLASH! Dear gawd. I have shivers just imagining that move being executed on me.
■ https://youtu.be/TeH98EycNus
Not a very good combat example, but the beginning of the video showcases the basic combo rotation I've been mastering. It would help if you look a few posts above and carefully organize in your mind the mentioned synergies.
Basically, the combo rotation, and its theory, goes like this:
stealth, and 2~3 CoS shots
just before stealth ends, throw VP - applies Skullcracker daze(3secs max)
VP(teleport) as stealth comes off - applies the extra hits to extend SC daze, as well as applies Determined Pursuit (tier2 Executioner feat) slow effect
Just as you are coming out of VP teleport, jumping Dazing Strike -- the jump is to improve odds of landing DS. The previous daze induced by Skullcracker through VP, will make sure the Dazing Strike lands
[OPPONENT IS SLOWED AND DAZED]
use DF - although out of stealth, DF hits with around +15% higher damage than normal, since Advantageous Position extends your combat advantage out of stealth. Also, this procs Oppressive Darkness for every hit, which deals piercing damage and applies the slow effect from offhand power augment
use Shadow Strike to restealth and escape at the right timing
■ https://youtu.be/I1dlcDNAeXM
This video more clearly demonstrates the combo as described in the previous video. Also some good example of the GWF trying to leave smokebomb radius, but failing to do so because of the slows. IMO the main satisfaction of this combo style is the speed and fluidity required to perform your actions, which is much more satisfying (personally, that is) than the generally passive nature of overpowered Sabo fighting, which simply goes into stealth, throw CoS while just passively maintaining distance. This is the "technical fighting" I've always wanted to do.
■ https://youtu.be/XJkJB_t1vhw
The result of what the multitude of slows, and the agility of WKs (via VP and Hateful Knives) can accomplish. If you were here around in these forums for a long time, you'd remember the technique I've developed for the WK quite some time ago, which I've dubbed "rolling slash" -- nothing too fancy but simply a dodge performed right after VP teleport, but incredibly useful in tracking running enemies and re-positioning so you can play a "cat and mouse" game where you block of the enemy with every corner he turns with. Another look at the rotation, with the finishing blows.
Incidentally, with no personal disrespect intended for the opponent, these are the kind of TRs that I am adamantly critical about. Try one attack, if it fails, just run, run, run, run, run, run, and run. Some of you might remember one of the more controversial threads I've made here in the past, about bad TR playing. Well, this is an example. Especially in the lower gear ranges, especially in domination -- a TR playing in that manner will get matches lost. Sure, for the TR himself, it's a great way to rack up kills and assists, since he always "plays it safe", but IMO that's not what they gave us TRs all the wonderful tools to work with, for.
If you're a TR, make your tools of your trade count.
■ https://youtu.be/JbdGlDEotXc
You really need to play aggressively with this one, and I admit this is not something that comes easily. Even with constant slows applied here and there the opponent will squirm as much as he can to get out of your attack range, and you need to constantly try and think one step ahead about where he will move to.
■ https://youtu.be/N06szuQqCCs
And a bonus track -- the reason why I think Oghma's the BiS for any WKs. No matter how well you play, shi* happens, especially if its one of those broken HAMSTER trapper HRs around. Of course, in situations like GG any TR can play perfectly passively, following around in big hordes and fighting only outnumbered and steamrolled enemies... but we all know a TR like that is useless. Hence, a lot of situations where you end up outnumbered yourself... and no matter how excellent your defense, there comes a time when a CC snags you. Oghma's is the saving grace IMO.
...currently I'm quite satisfied with the build/tactic. More than anything, it gives me reasonable number of kills with the Scoundrel path which is nowadays almost extinct. It is also very gratifying, and fast-paced and exciting, fancy way of fighting which is to my personal preference. It also harbors little to no "OP/bug/exploit" elements and almost entirely relies on your experience and skill, and makes use of all your arsenal at hand.
I'll be experimenting some more.
I gave OD a revisit since seeing your post to run some parses in PvE (since I find current PvP to be fubar) to see how it is doing there now (last time I checked it was less than 1% damage contribution). Surprisingly it is now yielding me as much damage on my saboteur as is SO (not ran with scoundrel yet) -- but the odd thing is that the amount is only 3% of my damage (still a large increase over my previous tests with OD) which means for some reason there is a large drop in SO damage. Now I only had time to run one dungeon and my total damage in that time was 55 million but I will test more later when I get more time.
The current COS sabo build seems optimal ATM but I am not a fan of cookie cutter builds. Plus I like close in fighting. A scrappy TR rather than invisible pew pewing.
Great info and insight in this thread, thanks!
Did they fix the CA bug? Does investing into charisma stats and CA related boons actually increase the damage now??
No the last time that I did check it (past Friday)
Ay caramba.. that's disheartening...
I am not sure to understand the joke here...
Feats: CLICK HERE
Skills:
- At-Wills: Duelist's Flurry, Cloud of Steel.
- Encounters: Shadow Strike, Impossible to Catch, Bait and Switch or Smoke Bomb for add clearing.
- Dailies: Courage Breaker, Bloodbath.
- Class Features: Infiltrator's Action, Oppressive Darkness.
The concept is similar, but there is no real encounter rotation as this build is centered on gaining as much AP as possible, popping a daily, and DF-ing away with it being empowered with CA + OD. This is pretty easy to achieve nowadays thanks to the Artifact Neck pieces and AP jewels, as well as BNS.
Some of the perks of the build are as follows.
- Courage Breaker on a boss would result in a ~50% damage increase via Low Blows and Back Alley Tactics. It's as if you got the Executioner's Last Moments + Deathknell combo without the HP threshold.
- High deflection.
- Duelist's Flurry empowered by Infiltrator's Action + OD will make sure that every strike deals extra piercing damage.
- Bait and Switch makes it easy to gain top notch AP, ITC gives you the usual stuff, and SS for extra Stealth if needed.
- Theoretically this build would yield very high single target damage. I am not sure as to how this would compare to the cookie cutter PVE build nowadays but it should be able to hold its own. I haven't played in the longest time.
- It's a fun and new play style.
For Attributes, go for DEX + CHA to maximize Deflection as well as getting increased Crit Chance since we're out of Stealth most of the time, so none of those 100% crit chance uptime Sabs get to enjoy. Artifact main, go for DF, for the off-hand it's best to stick with Infiltrator's Action for an additional 5% DPS while under its effects. To gain faster AP, the Artifact Neck Piece as well as Lathander's Dew would yield you 5% AP every 3 seconds. Just to make the AP gain a little faster.
Just thought I'd post this, in case a PVE MI would like to try something similar.
Thanks for taking all that time, I really appreciate it. I'll make sure to study it further to see if there are some cool stuff I can pick up for myself.
I would suggest looking into lurker's assault. Because while active, you do not gain AP means your back alley tactics should theoretically give you 25% increase damage boost for the 10 secs or so lurker's assault is active plus the damage boost form lurker's assault. If you have a CW in the party, low blow will be in affect due to chills anyways or if you use OH OD power.
Very good idea. If we dip 5/5 on Improved Cunning Sneak, it'd also be possible to DF opponents without ever going out of Stealth while in Lurker's Assault. That'd be a huge increase in DPS within those 10 seconds with 100% crit rate from Stealth.
Just waiting for Strongholds to arrive to see if it's enjoyable.
No worries. I was madly curious about it myself. The proposal to combine Back Alley Tactics with Lurkers (and for MI add Invisible Infiltrator) is a net 75% damage increase. That's a strong combo even with just Sly Flourish, which is another 5% increase for the final strike. Don't we have combat advantage while in stealth? That's +15% damage if I'm assuming we do. Net 95% damage.
I really like reading this discussion. I do still have some questions regarding feat selections for the Whisperknife as posted by mirror. I'm assuming that heroic feats are a matter of personal taste except for lucky skirmisher and weapn mastery? Or would there be a specific setup needed to make this works so well in pvp?
Kind regards
This is the setup I am currently using. My choice of race is almost always human because having 3 more feat points, even at the expense of one less attribute bonus, often helps round out the feats in the way I like it.
http://nwcalc.com/index.html#/tr?b=1oa5:k6rwk5:8dep:5tb7d,1om05c5:1000000:1uu5u5v:1u0u000&h=1&p=wkn
In terms of heroic feats, the central feats are:
■ Toughness
■ Swift Footwork
■ Twilight Adept
■ Improved Cunning Sneak
For Paragon feats I went 31 into Scoundrel and 10 into Executioner.
I'm not gonna lie. Discovering this build was a result of hard work, since the Scoundrel tree's a mess right now. Survival-related feats like Bloody Brawler or Savage Blows is nothing short of garbage, Concussive Strike was so important in mod5 and yet, it was reduced to uselessness.
My current build is nothing like the old mod5 Scoundrel, as the central mechanic that made it work in PvP was simply destroyed beyond repair. I basically built a new one from scratch, something totally different, and made it work in PvP. Currently in regards to the Paragon Feats, this IMO, is the best I can do.
There is no 'specific setup' involved with this build, although there are some improving points. When you get overload slots, be sure to arm yourself with Red Dragon Glyphs. Right, who uses these nowadays? Hey, that's why it's so good. It synergizes perfectly with DF, and its additional damage coming from OppDark. The Glyphs are also very cheap now.
However, I must warn you that to pull this build off it takes some experience, a lot of practice in jump-DF attacks, and very flexible thinking in terms of tactics. This is probably why many people fail with WK builds. There are its limitations for sure, but on top of that, when I see other TRs using WK builds, they are SO passive. They never go further than just; (a) plant DHS, (b) throw some CoS, (c) try to DoT-bleed the other guy, (d) run if they don't. But WKs, in essence, require high amounts of aggression, your balls nailed to the wall.
I'll try and see if I can record a whole match that goes well, to show an ideal example/situation, although I'm not sure if my hard drive has enough space.. (heh)a