Its quite interesting to see this combo (Oppression Darkness + Advantageous Position, with offand bonus on OD) is something I was using in PvE before reading this.
Despite not having the same feats (I dont have the same amount of Crowd Control because I went WkSab), I found the videos very useful, I stopped playing for too long and had forgotten this jumping DF trick which I now use all of the time, even in dungeons.
If anyone uses this kind of build in a PvE environment I would really enjoy feedback about it.
By the way there are actually two dailies allowing you to benefit from having 0 Action Points: Lurkers Assault, but also Blood Bath.
Lets all keep sharing ideas this way ! There isnt enough theorycrafting in the Thieves Den, and too many QQ threads.
Been experimenting with Executioner version of this build, the same synergies (OppDark + AdvPosition + DF) ... and it's certainly something to see it burn down stuff like Paladins or DCs. You can literally see the HP drop slowly until one point... and then suddenly speedily burn down after that point.. and when it reaches lower than 30% HP, it's just.. gone.
With the Executioner version most lower-geared people are literally one-rotation... without using stuff like LB, or WoE, or SO, or SE... just a combo of VP, Dazing Strike and a DF hit square.
The downside is the attack initiation seems to be less stable than the Scoundrel, and also slightly more frail. Another dilemma is that to use OppDark + AdvPosition.. I can't use the rank4 Tenacious Concealment in conjunction with the capstone... which is like the best feature a Executioner has.
In general, IMO this sorta helps confirm my idea that mod6 executioners aren't the 1-shot burst damage classes. It's more of a normal TR with greatly enhanced basic powers, and it's a lot more important to "follow the basics" with the Executioner, than to try for one big hits. Meaning: the burst damage is gone, but that doesn't mean the DPS is low. In general, in terms of the true meaning of the word "DPS" -- as in "damage per second", making reference to amount of damage in a given time unit, I actually think the DPS is higher. Lower burst per opportunity, but higher DPS potential.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
0
svenisperfectMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 40Arc User
What if you would slot courage breaker to guarantee a duelist flurry hitting? Wouldn't that make up for the executioner's lack of skullcracker? It would also help with kiting cc immune targets around I think.
While trying out your scoundrel version of the build I found it really hard to be aggressive and stay alive without a negation enchantment. Switching to executioner path yielded better results as you can hide and harass more often, not to mention free damage amplification in the form of Shadow of Demise.
But I guess my problems about executing the build probably have something to do with my abysmal reaction times.
Do you think your scoundrel setup would be very gear/enchantment dependant?
What if you would slot courage breaker to guarantee a duelist flurry hitting? Wouldn't that make up for the executioner's lack of skullcracker? It would also help with kiting cc immune targets around I think.
While trying out your scoundrel version of the build I found it really hard to be aggressive and stay alive without a negation enchantment. Switching to executioner path yielded better results as you can hide and harass more often, not to mention free damage amplification in the form of Shadow of Demise.
But I guess my problems about executing the build probably have something to do with my abysmal reaction times.
Do you think your scoundrel setup would be very gear/enchantment dependant?
In theory it works with every build IF you are a WK -- since the most critical component of the DF-centered combat of scoundrels, comes from the combination of two of the TR's class features and does not remain exclusive to the scoundrel.
For a bit more detailed explanation, when you break it down the synergy it looks like this. This is the way how I use it. Yellow is the action, cyan is the reasoning behind it:
(1) stealth → setting up attack
(2) VP(mark) → to proc Skullcracker
(2) Skullcracker procs → target is dazed, cannot avoid (3)
(3) VP(teleport) → close gap, target is stunned, cannot avoid (4)
(3) stealth off → Advantageous Position activates (+8s)
(4) Dazing Strike → target is dazed
(4) OD procs → because AdvP is in effect
(4) target slowed → because OD + offhand artifact power
(5) jumping DF strikes → target was slowed and dazed in (4)
(5) target is slowed throughout attack → because AdvP procs OD
(5) all attacks of DF proc OD → extra piercing damage x10
As you can see, steps (1), (2) and (3) are basically efficiency routines, making it much more probable for the combo to land. This means according to situation (1)~(3) may be altered, or in some cases just skipped if possible. For example, if you have the initiative and the enemy is slow to react, then you can rearrange the stealth timing so it looks like this:
(1) VP(mark) → SC proc → target dazed
(2) VP(teleport) → close gap → proc Determined Pursuit → target slowed
(3) stealth, then Dazing Strike → target dazed, proc AdvP, proc OD
(4) DF attacks
As you can clearly see, this attack pattern is applicable regardless of path -- even Sabos can use this, but to use it in PvP being a WK is clearly more efficient, because the quintessential prerequisite to be able to land DF to your liking, is to deal slow + daze at the same time. This is what makes DF such a useful tool for WKs.
Using OD with its offhand artifact power takes care of the slows, and Dazing Strike is the main source of the daze. Being a scoundrel simply adds a small bit of more dazes to make it easier to land. But in other words, it also means any other form of slow+daze can work -- the prime example being a well-timed stealth-smokebomb... but of course, in this case most people can simply dodge out of it before it takes effect.
So in conclusion, it isn't really limited to gear/enchant, but rather more limited through the paragon. For WKs all three paths can use DF as their main mode of attack, and with very high accuracy and reliability. For MIs, scoundrels can sort of do an inferior version of the DF combos by using Deftstrike, but its much more unlikely for the Sabos and Execs to pull it off. Especially since most of them have devolved from the mastery of DF, down to the lazy CoS spamming from permastealth we used to see back before mod5.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
For an Executioner, I'd swap SS with LB, weave it in between DS and DF. I would also start VP out of stealth, so SoD procs Stealth>LB>oppdarkDF for max piercing. A WK/Sabo could crit both DS and LB using OwtS.
My problem with this rotation, as I've tried it, is with VP. This power apart from being hopelessly bugged, is lag unfriendly. Note, you can also measure your latency (in milisecs) by in-game distance covered by simply walking a character. If let's say, VP range is 80 (correct me if I'm wrong) and your target is exactly at 70' range, moving away from you, and your latency is about 20' delayed, you will start the animation of 1/2 VP, but it wont mark, it will reset. The same for VP Teleport, you will begin the animation, but won't actually teleport anywhere. Terrain occlusion bugs the teleport and the CC break is unreliable at best.
Acronyms for the unenlightened*
SS = Shadow Strike
LB = Lashing Blade
DS = Dazing Strike
DF = Duelist Flurry
VP = Vengeance Pursuit
oppdark = Oppressive Darkness, class feature
SoD = Shadow of Demise, Executioner capstone
WK = Whisperknife
Sabo-teur
OwtS = One with the Shadows, Saboteur capstone
My problem with this rotation, as I've tried it, is with VP. This power apart from being hopelessly bugged, is lag unfriendly. Note, you can also measure your latency (in milisecs) by in-game distance covered by simply walking a character. If let's say, VP range is 80 (correct me if I'm wrong) and your target is exactly at 70' range, moving away from you, and your latency is about 20' delayed, you will start the animation of 1/2 VP, but it wont mark, it will reset. The same for VP Teleport, you will begin the animation, but won't actually teleport anywhere. Terrain occlusion bugs the teleport and the CC break is unreliable at best.
Having lived with those bugs for the last 2 years or so I don't really notice it nowadays. In compensation VP has truly some magnificent implications, such as being one of the very few powers which does not destealth you at activation (only seasoned TRs would immediately understand how huge this is (!)), as well as it's also about the only power that allows a moving shot (!!).
Are there other powers in the game that allows you movement during activation? I know that whirlwind thingy the GWF has, and reaping strike with its awkward slow movement... but I'm not aware if any encounters in game allow you movement during activation. The fact that you can move around also holds huge implications for VP, again, a worthy trait which veteran TRs would really appreciate. It allows a very fluid, mobile fighting style and that's what I love so much about this power.
The animation is quite funky and awesome, and seeing your TR run around and then do this graceful-dynamic jump to launch an airborne dagger throw... priceless. One of the coolest looking powers in game IMO.
....
The one thing that miffs me the most... it's failure to break roots. I've reported this bug countless times since mod2... just no answer from the devs at all. No fixes. I'm kinda guessing it might have something to do with how root type powers disable otehr gap-closers like Deftstrike or Marauder's Assault. Maybe VP also has some sort of "ID marker" marking the power type as a gap-closers, and somehow it is overriding the "CC break" when you are rooted.
If this one thing be fixed, I'd be a happy man
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Even with its bugs, VP is great. It's the lag implications that I can't live with. Most players play at 100 ping. I have 300-400 in my best days. At 500, a VP rotation becomes unplayable for me. This was kinda like why I have major issues playing as GWF/SW because of the sprint rubberband effect
svenisperfectMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 40Arc User
Thank you both for the replies. Things make alot more sense now, especially the part about Vengeance Pursuit bugging in some cases. That explains what happened during some of the more chaotic fights.
One of the things I hate most about VP is with the targeting system often assuming a target other than the one I have focused and getting that "SoAndSo is not a valid target". Heck I even have VP telling me that I was not a valid target at times (and no, no bait and switch being used). I do really like the ability to use it on the run, and moving sideways while the animation is in play (silly I know but the silly things can entertain).
Comments
Despite not having the same feats (I dont have the same amount of Crowd Control because I went WkSab), I found the videos very useful, I stopped playing for too long and had forgotten this jumping DF trick which I now use all of the time, even in dungeons.
If anyone uses this kind of build in a PvE environment I would really enjoy feedback about it.
By the way there are actually two dailies allowing you to benefit from having 0 Action Points: Lurkers Assault, but also Blood Bath.
Lets all keep sharing ideas this way ! There isnt enough theorycrafting in the Thieves Den, and too many QQ threads.
With the Executioner version most lower-geared people are literally one-rotation... without using stuff like LB, or WoE, or SO, or SE... just a combo of VP, Dazing Strike and a DF hit square.
The downside is the attack initiation seems to be less stable than the Scoundrel, and also slightly more frail. Another dilemma is that to use OppDark + AdvPosition.. I can't use the rank4 Tenacious Concealment in conjunction with the capstone... which is like the best feature a Executioner has.
In general, IMO this sorta helps confirm my idea that mod6 executioners aren't the 1-shot burst damage classes. It's more of a normal TR with greatly enhanced basic powers, and it's a lot more important to "follow the basics" with the Executioner, than to try for one big hits. Meaning: the burst damage is gone, but that doesn't mean the DPS is low. In general, in terms of the true meaning of the word "DPS" -- as in "damage per second", making reference to amount of damage in a given time unit, I actually think the DPS is higher. Lower burst per opportunity, but higher DPS potential.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
What if you would slot courage breaker to guarantee a duelist flurry hitting? Wouldn't that make up for the executioner's lack of skullcracker? It would also help with kiting cc immune targets around I think.
While trying out your scoundrel version of the build I found it really hard to be aggressive and stay alive without a negation enchantment. Switching to executioner path yielded better results as you can hide and harass more often, not to mention free damage amplification in the form of Shadow of Demise.
But I guess my problems about executing the build probably have something to do with my abysmal reaction times.
Do you think your scoundrel setup would be very gear/enchantment dependant?
In theory it works with every build IF you are a WK -- since the most critical component of the DF-centered combat of scoundrels, comes from the combination of two of the TR's class features and does not remain exclusive to the scoundrel.
For a bit more detailed explanation, when you break it down the synergy it looks like this. This is the way how I use it. Yellow is the action, cyan is the reasoning behind it:
(1) stealth → setting up attack
(2) VP(mark) → to proc Skullcracker
(2) Skullcracker procs → target is dazed, cannot avoid (3)
(3) VP(teleport) → close gap, target is stunned, cannot avoid (4)
(3) stealth off → Advantageous Position activates (+8s)
(4) Dazing Strike → target is dazed
(4) OD procs → because AdvP is in effect
(4) target slowed → because OD + offhand artifact power
(5) jumping DF strikes → target was slowed and dazed in (4)
(5) target is slowed throughout attack → because AdvP procs OD
(5) all attacks of DF proc OD → extra piercing damage x10
As you can see, steps (1), (2) and (3) are basically efficiency routines, making it much more probable for the combo to land. This means according to situation (1)~(3) may be altered, or in some cases just skipped if possible. For example, if you have the initiative and the enemy is slow to react, then you can rearrange the stealth timing so it looks like this:
(1) VP(mark) → SC proc → target dazed
(2) VP(teleport) → close gap → proc Determined Pursuit → target slowed
(3) stealth, then Dazing Strike → target dazed, proc AdvP, proc OD
(4) DF attacks
As you can clearly see, this attack pattern is applicable regardless of path -- even Sabos can use this, but to use it in PvP being a WK is clearly more efficient, because the quintessential prerequisite to be able to land DF to your liking, is to deal slow + daze at the same time. This is what makes DF such a useful tool for WKs.
Using OD with its offhand artifact power takes care of the slows, and Dazing Strike is the main source of the daze. Being a scoundrel simply adds a small bit of more dazes to make it easier to land. But in other words, it also means any other form of slow+daze can work -- the prime example being a well-timed stealth-smokebomb... but of course, in this case most people can simply dodge out of it before it takes effect.
So in conclusion, it isn't really limited to gear/enchant, but rather more limited through the paragon. For WKs all three paths can use DF as their main mode of attack, and with very high accuracy and reliability. For MIs, scoundrels can sort of do an inferior version of the DF combos by using Deftstrike, but its much more unlikely for the Sabos and Execs to pull it off. Especially since most of them have devolved from the mastery of DF, down to the lazy CoS spamming from permastealth we used to see back before mod5.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
My problem with this rotation, as I've tried it, is with VP. This power apart from being hopelessly bugged, is lag unfriendly. Note, you can also measure your latency (in milisecs) by in-game distance covered by simply walking a character. If let's say, VP range is 80 (correct me if I'm wrong) and your target is exactly at 70' range, moving away from you, and your latency is about 20' delayed, you will start the animation of 1/2 VP, but it wont mark, it will reset. The same for VP Teleport, you will begin the animation, but won't actually teleport anywhere. Terrain occlusion bugs the teleport and the CC break is unreliable at best.
Acronyms for the unenlightened*
SS = Shadow Strike
LB = Lashing Blade
DS = Dazing Strike
DF = Duelist Flurry
VP = Vengeance Pursuit
oppdark = Oppressive Darkness, class feature
SoD = Shadow of Demise, Executioner capstone
WK = Whisperknife
Sabo-teur
OwtS = One with the Shadows, Saboteur capstone
Having lived with those bugs for the last 2 years or so I don't really notice it nowadays. In compensation VP has truly some magnificent implications, such as being one of the very few powers which does not destealth you at activation (only seasoned TRs would immediately understand how huge this is (!)), as well as it's also about the only power that allows a moving shot (!!).
Are there other powers in the game that allows you movement during activation? I know that whirlwind thingy the GWF has, and reaping strike with its awkward slow movement... but I'm not aware if any encounters in game allow you movement during activation. The fact that you can move around also holds huge implications for VP, again, a worthy trait which veteran TRs would really appreciate. It allows a very fluid, mobile fighting style and that's what I love so much about this power.
The animation is quite funky and awesome, and seeing your TR run around and then do this graceful-dynamic jump to launch an airborne dagger throw... priceless. One of the coolest looking powers in game IMO.
....
The one thing that miffs me the most... it's failure to break roots. I've reported this bug countless times since mod2... just no answer from the devs at all. No fixes. I'm kinda guessing it might have something to do with how root type powers disable otehr gap-closers like Deftstrike or Marauder's Assault. Maybe VP also has some sort of "ID marker" marking the power type as a gap-closers, and somehow it is overriding the "CC break" when you are rooted.
If this one thing be fixed, I'd be a happy man
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'