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DC's heal and OPally's Temp HP

icyphishicyphish Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,255 Arc User
edited June 2015 in PvP Discussion
Objective:
Adjust DC's Heal and OPally's Temp HP to a more killable level in 1 vs 1 (for equally geared players).
In return with less heal/survivability (temp HP), the skills would reward other buffs such as increased defence, attack power, movement speed, HoT (heal over time)...etc

Why the proposal?
I believe one of the main reasons why most of the people go for instant burst kill is that, without downing your opponent in one combo, the chance is you will never be able to kill the DC / OPally, and whats worst, if you cannot bring down the DC/OP , the chance is that you will not be able to kill any of their premade friends next to them.

Currently in high level premade PvP, it takes 2~4 people to take down a BiS DC/OP of equal gear level, when there is a premade match of any two Healer/OP combined, its next to impossible to kill anything (this is especially obvious in premade DOM matches), I have had many instances where when we have 2 Healers in a team, the fight at mid node could last 5~10 minutes but at the end nobody can kill anyone.

How it benefits the community:
By adjusting DC/OP's heal/Temp HP to a more killable level (and being able to tank 1 vs 2 if they are very skilled) would help allowing different classes to invest into more builds, control builds would become more meaningful, support skills would become more significant and people would actually be able to look into more ways of playing their classes. PvP would be more interesting and not just the current “Get the DC/OP or we can't kill anything else"

I would like to know everyone's opinion on this :)



PS: Dear DC/OP, please be unbiased when voting, thank you in advance! :)
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • lerdocixlerdocix Member Posts: 897 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    2 words.

    Crowd control.

    My OPally goes down in seconds when its applied and last ages when its not.

    As for DC, there are 2 ways, get him to low HP and "execute" with daily or strong hitting encounter before key feat kicks in or just CC to death.
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,404 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Hell yeah, lets double nerf the Paladin. Take away the damage daily, take away the temp HP. Who can say without a shadow of a doubt what level of tankiness is too much and what is too little huh? Let me guess, anything that your character cant take down 1x1 is too much right?



    "Skill" in this game comes down to knowing what to use and when to use it, in other words timing your abilities. Since we dont have that many active abilities learning to time them is not exactly an achievement. What this means? It means in this game PVP is decided by gear and numbers not by skill and playstyle. Current Pally numbers alow it to tank 4-5 people who dont deploy smart CC use. Reduce the current Pally's numbers and regardless of "skill" he wont be able to tank even the people who dont know how and when to apply cc. He'd be overwhelmed by dps just how epic dungeon bosses used to be pre mod 6.

    You simply cant ask for skill-based balance in a gear dependant game. If anyone wants to dispute this I invite them to fight me naked, without enchants and companions to see just how far your "skill" goes.

    take away the perma daily and i dont have any problem with paladin .
  • bertrandxbertrandx Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 147 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    when we have 2 Healers in a team, the fight at mid node could last 5~10 minutes but at the end nobody can kill anyone.

    LOL something is definitely wrong here and needs tunning. I suggest a 5th option of reducing a bit the tankiness and heals, like option 2- and 3- combined but in less effect than each separately. I think I would go for that one.
    Bert - Lv70 pathfinder trapper. How's sunny california?
  • mirrorballsmirrorballs Member Posts: 877 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2015
    As always, my concept/idea of "balance" mostly revolves around active counters, rather than a straight nerf -- unless its fundamentally broken(ex: Shadowy Opportunity) or a bug exploit(too many to pick out, lol).

    If a class has a very powerful self-buff/heal, and thus becomes too popular and abundant, then simply pick the current "weakest" class, and then turn it into a "counter class" with as much powerful debuffs that can basically force a zero-sum on those buffs and neuter it. Besdies, in general, game wise, NW debuffs are quite weak in comparison how strong some buffs.

    I've been wanting this for a long time, but conceptually, SWs are perfect. They're not really into all that holy or righteous shi*. They're not the shiny white knights in armor or priests of virtue, these guys are dark, hell-lovers wit all sorts of curses.

    So then, simply, pick out some of the unpopular powers these SWs use, and then EMPOWER those so that it acts as a direct counter to all that DR and heals. Make those powers deal hellish amounts of healing debuffs, make those powers crack open all that ridiculous amounts of DR, make those powers do diabolical things like increase recharge time. Oh, of course, this means the SWs should stay as frail and easy to kill as they are.

    So basically, SW players would still suffer the same problems as now, but OTOH, at the same time they will become the keystone, the most important asset of a team that does not have as strong Oppais or DCs. As long as the team can help out the SW, protect it, keep it from harm, and as long as the SW is free to curse and spit and do all that shi* (hey.. that rhymed! :rolleyes: ), any buffs and heals coming from Oppais and DCs -- nerfed to the ground.

    Counter classes, counter powers, counter buffs(=debuffs) are always the best answer to not only balancing things out, but also increasing diversity.
  • mirrorballsmirrorballs Member Posts: 877 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2015
    bertrandx wrote: »
    LOL something is definitely wrong here and needs tunning. I suggest a 5th option of reducing a bit the tankiness and heals, like option 2- and 3- combined but in less effect than each separately. I think I would go for that one.

    If you take two equally geared premades and play Domination, complete with GFs, Oppais and DCs, they could be fighting the entire match at the mid node for over an hour, non-stop, and have nobody die around there. The last time I was in a match like that, I was like 2~3 notches below in terms of gear, and yet, fought at the mid node without dying, from the start of domination match, to the end == I fought for about 50 minutes straight without the combat state ending. In the end the fight was decided elsewhere, as our team's TR was better than theirs, and capped the rear node more often.

    This game seriously needs counters and debuffs to all that buffs, heals and shields.
  • foxxy#4211 foxxy Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    So lets see if i understand:
    U want to take away DC survivability/ Temp points when we have such power against us: SE, desintegrate, anvil of doom; killing flames, CC from wizards, ice knife, lashing blade, some dailies from GWF, perma root and daze from rangers; lostmauths vengeance (dealing like a daily), (Add to this all those broken feats). In other words, as you cannot defeat a DC fast, u want him nerfed? U want us to suk in pvp? NO thanks!. no vote for any of your options.

    As for Opally, i agree in the fact this class should no deal the damage divine judgement does (a 1 shot) while having so many def buffs better than DC.

    PS: Temp points granted by DC dont go more than 6k, nothing compared to those from Opally.
  • quspivquspiv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    This poll is worthless. Why do you put a healer and a tank together for comparision? (OP healer doesnt really get any high temp HP)
  • denvalddenvald Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 702 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Interesting but flawed. You can hardly balance a game around pvp while preserving PvE Balance. Currently PvE balance is looking good, except for warlock that are still behind the bunch, most of the classes are fine.

    In pvp? You fix the bugs, and all the exploits, and the state improves by 3folds. Afterwards, when all the bugs are gone you look at balance, how can you balance things when people are still bug abusing? It's hard to tell then where the buff and the debuff is really needed.

    Obviously, the level of tankiness of pvp has increased alot, which is sorta ridiculous because now you cannot bypass someone's DR unless you have over 80% ArP. Which nobody has. Not to mention our new star-class Paladin(DC too, but DCs dont one shot me with 300k bull**** damage)and they have three times the amount of healing for what I got in DPS because 40% tenacity + whatever DR which you cannot bypass + negation which is also unmitigated DR is obviously greater than 50% depression. all 3 unmitigated DRs combined with the healing and temporary HP? You need to perma CC the guy to even remotely be able to kill it. Then after all the efforts he respawns 10 seconds later. GG, you almost got 10 points contributed to victory.

    In practical terms you get horribly boring games where you have a paladin tanking mid node, all nodes are contested, the game takes 3 hours, nothing happens because nothing dies, you just stand there as a DPS cause u got tired of trying. Fun game

    The answer might not be to change the paladin and DC, it might just be change negation and the ArP resistance back to 40%-60% (equal to the others) instead of 80% and some other tweaks
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  • icyphishicyphish Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,255 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I like your idea, by lowering everyone's resistance that might mean its easier to bring down those players and so is everyone else, however considering DC has empowered Astral Shield that makes them almost immnue to certain attacks for the number of seconds, and Pally's Temp HP might still outlast the DPS vs Heal/Temp HP, it might become Two Immortals vs Others-That-Dies-Easier.

    It would be nice if Dev can analyse the sweet spot between Heal/Temp HP vs DPS. As a matter of fact, last night at Dwarven Valley, one OP was practically tanking attacks from 6~7 people+5 NPCs or so for like 8~10 mins (it was black ice domination and everyone was fighting right at the centre BIG Node, he has his teammate using Smoke Bomb and Oppresive Force inbetween, but often he gets whacked by 6~7 players+a few NPCs and he was able to hold all these up for almost 10 mins... and no, there was no DC on his side...)

    This kinda shows how TANKY a OP is (even DCs dies easily once they get CC and comboed, but I believe OP's shield also provides them CC immunity and blocks 360 degrees....). OP is fine at lower ranks, but once they get BiS gears, they become ridiciously tanky... (I can also bet a few GMOPs that NOBODY can kill BiS OP 1 vs 1 *except vs other OP with a lucky DJ crit*, and almost impossible even if you have 2 BiS DPSer ganging on them. As for to those ~2k item level players, such OP should be able to hold up 6~8 without any problem... oh wait, thats almost 2/3 of a GG game's team against 1 OP... :\


    denvald wrote: »
    Interesting but flawed. You can hardly balance a game around pvp while preserving PvE Balance. Currently PvE balance is looking good, except for warlock that are still behind the bunch, most of the classes are fine.

    In pvp? You fix the bugs, and all the exploits, and the state improves by 3folds. Afterwards, when all the bugs are gone you look at balance, how can you balance things when people are still bug abusing? It's hard to tell then where the buff and the debuff is really needed.

    Obviously, the level of tankiness of pvp has increased alot, which is sorta ridiculous because now you cannot bypass someone's DR unless you have over 80% ArP. Which nobody has. Not to mention our new star-class Paladin(DC too, but DCs dont one shot me with 300k bull**** damage)and they have three times the amount of healing for what I got in DPS because 40% tenacity + whatever DR which you cannot bypass + negation which is also unmitigated DR is obviously greater than 50% depression. all 3 unmitigated DRs combined with the healing and temporary HP? You need to perma CC the guy to even remotely be able to kill it. Then after all the efforts he respawns 10 seconds later. GG, you almost got 10 points contributed to victory.

    In practical terms you get horribly boring games where you have a paladin tanking mid node, all nodes are contested, the game takes 3 hours, nothing happens because nothing dies, you just stand there as a DPS cause u got tired of trying. Fun game

    The answer might not be to change the paladin and DC, it might just be change negation and the ArP resistance back to 40%-60% (equal to the others) instead of 80% and some other tweaks
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  • sainttapesainttape Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I love how all of this is assuming every PvPer is has everything BiS. I can claim to be only a middling player at best...I have 2 pieces of burning gear and a single purple artifact on my DPS/Heal specc'd DC. We're lowering my survivabiltiy too, in an arena where I routinely have to attempt to do anything against characters DOUBLE my IL. I cannot damage ANY class with a transcendent Negation, as all my damage is DoT. I can occasionally hold a node until I get immbilized/stun locked by a HR/ TR/ CW. I think the real problem here is the same as it has always been...Cryptic needs to change the queue system to place similar GS/IL levels together. I don't think debuffing OP/DC is the answer currently...I just have the feeling that people who are vocal about this debuff are not of similar enough IL (which, by the way Cryptic, I still can't see on other players I inspect...it replaces their IL with my own. The BIS specc'd whatever with all Mythic artifacts and R12 everything cannot possibly have the same level as me) to even scratch these BIS titans.
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    DC is more or less fine...pally no
  • quspivquspiv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    rayrdan wrote: »
    DC is more or less fine...pally no

    I think otherwise. DC is pretty broken for a heal, mainly because of dodge.
  • ucanthandleucanthandle Member Posts: 211 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    1v1 a healer or tank should not die to dps. If they could, then 2 dps vs 2 tanks the 2 dps would win every single time because he would burst down in seconds and the tanks could not do the same. You have to find the spot where tanks/healers/dps are all needed and are useful for something.

    Also everything is not always about mindless killing from one place to the next. Its nice to see stalemates every now and then that require people to use more than "omg I blow you up" strategy. An equal fight on a node knockback/cc become key, not just mindless zerg mentality. This is a very nice change.
  • gweddrygweddry Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 278 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Imo DC should get their personal survivability slightly lowered and as for OP, well.. I absolutely HATE playing against that dumb class. The thing is next to unkillable, has an amount of interrupts that is as bad as HR's and also has the ability to either make his whole team invulnerable or one shot you when needed. Pvp is usually decently fun, especially in premades without pallys. But when I have to face an OP I just tend to lose my will to fight, knowing I can't win(usually takes at the very least 2 good dps).
  • icyphishicyphish Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,255 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    1v1 a healer or tank should not die to dps. If they could, then 2 dps vs 2 tanks the 2 dps would win every single time because he would burst down in seconds and the tanks could not do the same. You have to find the spot where tanks/healers/dps are all needed and are useful for something.

    Also everything is not always about mindless killing from one place to the next. Its nice to see stalemates every now and then that require people to use more than "omg I blow you up" strategy. An equal fight on a node knockback/cc become key, not just mindless zerg mentality. This is a very nice change.

    I think the main problem here is not about 1 vs 1 with healer. The problem here is when there is a top tier healer in a group, the whole group is almost unkillable. In short

    At top tier fights, Healer+DPS vs 2 DPS (tank), the result is almost always a 100% win for Healer team, even if Healer+2 DPS vs 3~4 DPS, the chance is also very likely the Healer combo is going to win. Simple fact is if you cannot take down the Healer in the enemy team, you have almost no chance of taking any of their team member down, and with more DPS the healer team has, they bring down their enemy even faster (with more DPS overall), there is basically no chance for any even number teams to win against one that has a Healer. This become significantly worse when there are 2 Healers (DC) or combined with another immortal OP, there is almost no way you can bring any of them down unless you outnumber their team by A LOT.

    This is the whole reason why I am voicing out we should consider adjusting the healing power or the healer class' survability, because at the current state, as many people has mentioned, DC/OP are pretty immortal, and anyone around them would too be pretty immortal, there is basically no way any even number team can win against a team with a healer. (This is for top tier PvP fights)

    Update: Currently there are 18 votes agreeing adjustment should be made vs 19 votes believe changes should not be made.
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  • mirrorballsmirrorballs Member Posts: 877 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2015
    icyphish wrote: »
    I think the main problem here is not about 1 vs 1 with healer. The problem here is when there is a top tier healer in a group, the whole group is almost unkillable. In short

    At top tier fights, Healer+DPS vs 2 DPS (tank), the result is almost always a 100% win for Healer team, even if Healer+2 DPS vs 3~4 DPS, the chance is also very likely the Healer combo is going to win. Simple fact is if you cannot take down the Healer in the enemy team, you have almost no chance of taking any of their team member down, and with more DPS the healer team has, they bring down their enemy even faster (with more DPS overall), there is basically no chance for any even number teams to win against one that has a Healer. This become significantly worse when there are 2 Healers (DC) or combined with another immortal OP, there is almost no way you can bring any of them down unless you outnumber their team by A LOT.

    This is the whole reason why I am voicing out we should consider adjusting the healing power or the healer class' survability, because at the current state, as many people has mentioned, DC/OP are pretty immortal, and anyone around them would too be pretty immortal, there is basically no way any even number team can win against a team with a healer. (This is for top tier PvP fights)

    Update: Currently there are 18 votes agreeing adjustment should be made vs 19 votes believe changes should not be made.

    Unless, they implement my idea and allow certain classes to arise as specific target-driven, direct "counter classes" to others.

    This way, we don't need to make any of the DC or OP folk angry by suggesting more nerfs. This way, if the enemy team is so inclined to take the path of least resistance by incorporating the lame-as-heck "DCOP" pairing, then we can simply respond with a "oh yeah, keep on doing that 'Statue of Liberty' impersonation, we'll just do our 'debuff the hell out of your healing potency' skit"

    Imbue Scourge Warlock powers with healing debuffs. Powerful enough to basically cut down on all healing effects -- direct heals, HoTs, potions, regeneration, and temp HP -- by half at max stacks, maybe up to 10, 5% healing debuff per stack. This way, though relatively weaker, frail, and unpopular as it is, the SW still has meaning, perhaps the most important.
  • thestiathestia Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 296 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Unless, they implement my idea and allow certain classes to arise as specific target-driven, direct "counter classes" to others.

    This way, we don't need to make any of the DC or OP folk angry by suggesting more nerfs. This way, if the enemy team is so inclined to take the path of least resistance by incorporating the lame-as-heck "DCOP" pairing, then we can simply respond with a "oh yeah, keep on doing that 'Statue of Liberty' impersonation, we'll just do our 'debuff the hell out of your healing potency' skit"

    Imbue Scourge Warlock powers with healing debuffs. Powerful enough to basically cut down on all healing effects -- direct heals, HoTs, potions, regeneration, and temp HP -- by half at max stacks, maybe up to 10, 5% healing debuff per stack. This way, though relatively weaker, frail, and unpopular as it is, the SW still has meaning, perhaps the most important.

    As a DC, I hate this idea so much that it's probably a good one. Just the thought fills me with dread.
  • vexus99vexus99 Member Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    icyphish wrote: »
    Objective:
    Adjust DC's Heal and OPally's Temp HP to a more killable level in 1 vs 1 (for equally geared players).
    In return with less heal/survivability (temp HP), the skills would reward other buffs such as increased defence, attack power, movement speed, HoT (heal over time)...etc

    Why the proposal?
    I believe one of the main reasons why most of the people go for instant burst kill is that, without downing your opponent in one combo, the chance is you will never be able to kill the DC / OPally, and whats worst, if you cannot bring down the DC/OP , the chance is that you will not be able to kill any of their premade friends next to them.

    Currently in high level premade PvP, it takes 2~4 people to take down a BiS DC/OP of equal gear level, when there is a premade match of any two Healer/OP combined, its next to impossible to kill anything (this is especially obvious in premade DOM matches), I have had many instances where when we have 2 Healers in a team, the fight at mid node could last 5~10 minutes but at the end nobody can kill anyone.

    How it benefits the community:
    By adjusting DC/OP's heal/Temp HP to a more killable level (and being able to tank 1 vs 2 if they are very skilled) would help allowing different classes to invest into more builds, control builds would become more meaningful, support skills would become more significant and people would actually be able to look into more ways of playing their classes. PvP would be more interesting and not just the current “Get the DC/OP or we can't kill anything else"

    I would like to know everyone's opinion on this :)



    PS: Dear DC/OP, please be unbiased when voting, thank you in advance! :)

    Great idea. The Paladin is way too survivable with high end gear
  • foxxy#4211 foxxy Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    icyphish wrote: »
    I think the main problem here is not about 1 vs 1 with healer. The problem here is when there is a top tier healer in a group, the whole group is almost unkillable. In short.

    Oh! you're talking about top tier healers but at same time you're assuming all healers in game are top tiers, cause u are making a suggestion that will affect all healers in the game, got it?.

    Or u will tell me, u havent killed no-top tier healers? As i can see u're a weapon figther, How many times have i seen weapon figthers killing poor healers and OP? a lot!. but u won't say how many u have killed, cause u are focused on those top tier healers, a bit selfish, no?

    I agree with the case of OP's Tempoints. But a healer is easily to kill if he gets cc'd by a good Top tier Dps class.
    As a healer, top tier Dps class KILL me in seconds, my gear level is 2.8, i will never survive against someone who is above 3.5.

    ps Before making suggestions, think of all the community rather than some top tier healers u couldnot kill.
  • mirrorballsmirrorballs Member Posts: 877 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2015
    I agree with the case of OP's Tempoints. But a healer is easily to kill if he gets cc'd by a good Top tier Dps class.

    Like what?

    As a healer, top tier Dps class KILL me in seconds, my gear level is 2.8, i will never survive against someone who is above 3.5.

    Why are you comparing your own survival when you're clearly being attacked by someone that outgears you?? I don't get it. How do you fare against the same 2.5~2.8 IL range?

    ps Before making suggestions, think of all the community rather than some top tier healers u couldnot kill.

    Before defending your own class, see the reality with your own two eyes. The fight I mentioned before? The one where I went to the middle node in Hotenow and fought 50 mins straight without ever dying or the combat state ending?

    I was using an ungeared lv70 CW with around 1.9k IL with less than 80k HP while everyone else around me was at the least 3.5k in IL. I should have been going down easy with all that focus from the mega-damage GF and GWF trying to focus me. Instead, I became immortal. As a matter of fact with the lame shi* DC+OP in both sides, everybody was immortal.

    That's the truth.

    DCs should either be one of the two:

    (1) be very difficult to kill as they are, but less capable of making others immortal
    (2) be very capable of making others immortal, but less difficult to kill

    Having both as a support class is by all means, no different from a DPS class that is supremely difficult to kill, and yet supremely easy to kill with at the same time. Why do you think people hate Sabo TRs so much?




    .........................

    [EDIT] Now, to be fair, I do admit there's a side where many folk may be, just may be, missing here. It's the fact that usually most people who PvP just follow the established "common sense" to every letter blindly without really questioning it, challenging it, or testing it out themselves.

    When someone tells you ~~build/class is best, newbies usually do that, and then when they become veterans they repeat the same thing to other new players.

    There is a possibility that a certain build, method might be around which people have considered as "sucks in PvP" for such a long time without testing it themselves, that there might be a perfectly plausible answer around which we may not know about.


    In this case, I've been reconsidering the worth of full-CC laden Oppressor build CWs, low damage, all investments into CCs (yes, I know, a "WIS" CW.. who does that, right?)... as a mass-controller in fights much larger in scale than the usual domination level fights.

    Non-stop control in the AoE scale, with 4 sec interval freezes en masse from Icy Terrains, EF that lasts full 4~5 seconds even against tenacity loaded opponents, Long-range, wide AoE, 4-second dazing Daily power that gathers all opponents to one spot, and then with Frost Wave, roots them...

    I've been actually testing this out in the lower level PvP... and at least, in this level, it works.

    So yes, the DCs may not be a problem if we find out that a "counter class/build" already exists, but we just didn't know about it yet... and I'm about to find out...

    ...

    ...if I can get my gear up to plausible levels before they change or nerf or buff something again, that is.
  • icyphishicyphish Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,255 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Thanks for saving my time to explain, but yes, its only comparable if you are comparing to players your own level.
    I could easily 2~3 shot an ungeared DC, but that does not mean anything.
    Like what?




    Why are you comparing your own survival when you're clearly being attacked by someone that outgears you?? I don't get it. How do you fare against the same 2.5~2.8 IL range?




    Before defending your own class, see the reality with your own two eyes. The fight I mentioned before? The one where I went to the middle node in Hotenow and fought 50 mins straight without ever dying or the combat state ending?

    I was using an ungeared lv70 CW with around 1.9k IL with less than 80k HP while everyone else around me was at the least 3.5k in IL. I should have been going down easy with all that focus from the mega-damage GF and GWF trying to focus me. Instead, I became immortal. As a matter of fact with the lame shi* DC+OP in both sides, everybody was immortal.

    That's the truth.

    DCs should either be one of the two:

    (1) be very difficult to kill as they are, but less capable of making others immortal
    (2) be very capable of making others immortal, but less difficult to kill

    Having both as a support class is by all means, no different from a DPS class that is supremely difficult to kill, and yet supremely easy to kill with at the same time. Why do you think people hate Sabo TRs so much?




    .........................

    [EDIT] Now, to be fair, I do admit there's a side where many folk may be, just may be, missing here. It's the fact that usually most people who PvP just follow the established "common sense" to every letter blindly without really questioning it, challenging it, or testing it out themselves.

    When someone tells you ~~build/class is best, newbies usually do that, and then when they become veterans they repeat the same thing to other new players.

    There is a possibility that a certain build, method might be around which people have considered as "sucks in PvP" for such a long time without testing it themselves, that there might be a perfectly plausible answer around which we may not know about.


    In this case, I've been reconsidering the worth of full-CC laden Oppressor build CWs, low damage, all investments into CCs (yes, I know, a "WIS" CW.. who does that, right?)... as a mass-controller in fights much larger in scale than the usual domination level fights.

    Non-stop control in the AoE scale, with 4 sec interval freezes en masse from Icy Terrains, EF that lasts full 4~5 seconds even against tenacity loaded opponents, Long-range, wide AoE, 4-second dazing Daily power that gathers all opponents to one spot, and then with Frost Wave, roots them...

    I've been actually testing this out in the lower level PvP... and at least, in this level, it works.

    So yes, the DCs may not be a problem if we find out that a "counter class/build" already exists, but we just didn't know about it yet... and I'm about to find out...

    ...

    ...if I can get my gear up to plausible levels before they change or nerf or buff something again, that is.
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  • fatgunsfatguns Member Posts: 410 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Hell yeah, lets double nerf the Paladin. Take away the damage daily, take away the temp HP. Who can say without a shadow of a doubt what level of tankiness is too much and what is too little huh? Let me guess, anything that your character cant take down 1x1 is too much right?



    "Skill" in this game comes down to knowing what to use and when to use it, in other words timing your abilities. Since we dont have that many active abilities learning to time them is not exactly an achievement. What this means? It means in this game PVP is decided by gear and numbers not by skill and playstyle. Current Pally numbers alow it to tank 4-5 people who dont deploy smart CC use. Reduce the current Pally's numbers and regardless of "skill" he wont be able to tank even the people who dont know how and when to apply cc. He'd be overwhelmed by dps just how epic dungeon bosses used to be pre mod 6.

    You simply cant ask for skill-based balance in a gear dependant game. If anyone wants to dispute this I invite them to fight me naked, without enchants and companions to see just how far your "skill" goes.

    Skill? How much skill is it for a defencive paladin to brake CC and heal up AND take 0 dmg AND get insane amounts of temp hp...NOT BALANCED. YES paladins do need insane nerfs.
  • lerdocixlerdocix Member Posts: 897 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    fatguns wrote: »
    Skill? How much skill is it for a defencive paladin to brake CC and heal up AND take 0 dmg AND get insane amounts of temp hp...NOT BALANCED. YES paladins do need insane nerfs.
    Well, that depends if you use actual CC and prones/knockbacks or are just spamming DPS encounters like a rabid monkey.

    Against an idiot, its easy to stay alife, against someone who have a clue and knows how to CC(DPS DC, CW, GF, TR), DC will go down.
    My righteous AC DC have ilvl 2.200 and I have no problem killing heal DCs. Its all about smart CC.
  • mirrorballsmirrorballs Member Posts: 877 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2015
    lerdocix wrote: »
    Well, that depends if you use actual CC and prones/knockbacks or are just spamming DPS encounters like a rabid monkey.

    Against an idiot, its easy to stay alife, against someone who have a clue and knows how to CC(DPS DC, CW, GF, TR), DC will go down.

    It's not an option when some of the Opals can cast Sanctuary back to back. Never played OP so I don't know how its possible, but I've opted to clearly observe just how often they can use it. The shortest was like 3 secs intervals between one Sanctuary and the other. Empirically speaking, the interval between one Sanct and the other feels even shorter than the back-to-back Unstoppable mod2 GWFs used to do, which was at least like 5~6 seconds in between.

    As a matter of fact, the number one factor behind the "unkillable" of the Opal is this prolonged, almost unstopping CC-immunity.

    All the other things, the self heals, temp HPs, resistances.. in the end with enough people focusing this can be all grinded down if, IF, the attackers can disrupt those actions often enough to be chipping of his HP faster than he can replenish it.

    But as it is, turtle-up with shield and backpedal around the node, no CC gets through ever, no way to stop self-heal/buff action, just slowly circle round and round with the turtle shell until full AP and bam. DJ. One guy dead. Rinse and repeat... so it takes at least 4~5 people that are on PAR with the Opal's spec/level to bring one down, and takes time -- TOO MUCH TIME to be considered 'balanced' -- to do so.

    Think about why people say permastealth Sabo TRs are OP -- you can have 4~5 people defending the node and a good Sabo can still stay alive for way, way too long against those odds, disrupting the flow of your team throughout the entire match. Opals are basically the same.

    Have it in reasonable intervals or duration, and the Opal should be as unkillable as current against maybe 1 or 2, but would go down a lot faster against 3, 4, or more. As it is the current amount of time it takes to down a well-built Opal is really, almost on par with a well-built, full-survival mode TR dancing on the node. The difference being the TR will just run off when things get too pushy, but the Opal will stay his ground until he finally drops, or help comes.

    My righteous AC DC have ilvl 2.200 and I have no problem killing heal DCs. Its all about smart CC.

    1. DCs don't have CC-immunity
    2. Opals don't have CC-vulnerable openings.

    It's a big difference.
  • ravenanravenan Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 220 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    You forgot that OP has cc breaker which changes things.
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  • mirrorballsmirrorballs Member Posts: 877 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2015
    I'm about to reconsider my stance. I've finally got my experimental CW build up to lv70 and currently testing it out at mid~high gear ranges (2,500~3,500 IL range).

    Oppressors went extinct circa. mod4 after chill-stack immunities and tenacity. The back-to-back CCs with light to no investment in CC-related stats didn't work anymore, and CWs were given more powerful alternatives in the form of storm spell procs. Nobody really took the time or effort to test a hardcore-CC setup, hence I also assumed Oppressors went the way of the dodo since no real CW player seemed to ever even give it any thought.

    Well, now, after having tested it myself (and I'm pretty sure I'm probably the first one to do something crazy like this since mod4 days... I think...), it seems that the answer to Opals and DCs are hard-core, CC-focused Oppressor CW builds. Gotta do some more testing as well progress more into gear, but as it is, the current build/tactic I'm using which includes very-long duration CCs as well as very short-recharge times, seems actually enough to lock down and/or disrupt DCs and Opals in long intervals that is enough to help the DPS guys focus more damage than they DC/Opals can replenish themselves.

    ...

    So, after the last week, my stance is a bit changed. Maybe they do need some nerfs, stuff like DJ, but it terms of their 'tankiness', now I know there's a way to halt them in their tracks... and I'm now inclined to think they're not as invincible as we thought they were -- only that nobody really takes the time and effort to make a minority build that is specialized to neuter them well enough. (since, yes, nobody likes purpose-driven counter/support builds, and everyone loves nuke DPS builds..)

    Dunno if this is going to work in premade level fights, but as it is, against individual players -- some even with good gear -- it seems quite doable.
  • onegaki101onegaki101 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 327 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Currently what makes the DC's powerful and almost unkillable is empowered astral shield as it makes them immune to most if not, all damage(all the 0s you see when attacking them on it). This alone allows the DC to survive against multiple enemies. Only way to counter is to constantly CC so they cannot launch another empowered astral shield.
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