Because it's more optimal to take two strong support characters (tank & healer) and then 3 pure dps characters instead of another support with low damage.
Furthermore, healers and tanks can already play that role to some extent and this is more than enough.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
... in a party? They can use every important skill beside 'healing'.
I don't know, either.
Had some successful T1 runs last week. I was healing on my Paladin, and we had a DPS cleric doing the damage/buffing thing.
I think it probably has something to do with the general metagame thinking of the general PUG community...of course it's also a big reason why the general PUG community is struggling in dungeons and mostly resorting to bugs and exploits to finish content.
My advice? Join a guild that welcomes all types of different playstyles.
Had some successful T1 runs last week. I was healing on my Paladin, and we had a DPS cleric doing the damage/buffing thing.
I think it probably has something to do with the general metagame thinking of the general PUG community...of course it's also a big reason why the general PUG community is struggling in dungeons and mostly resorting to bugs and exploits to finish content.
My advice? Join a guild that welcomes all types of different playstyles.
It's not just that. It is clearly suboptimal. Tanks can use into the fray, clerics have divine glow, and anyway, with the new power creep in mod 6 and the lostmauth set, T2 final boss fights last 5 mins at most. Having a dps character using some utility spells (CWs with shard, TRs with smoke bomb, HRs with roots/daze) is always better than bringing a cleric with 0 utility besides pathetic damage and damage buffs any class has anyway.
It's like asking why people wouldn't invite fire CWs using ray of enfeeblement: because it's not needed and it would slow down a T2 run.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited May 2015
I didn't see the "pathetic" damage. The DC I was running with was full DPS spec'd and seem to be pretty competitive with everyone else.
I didn't see the "pathetic" damage. The DC I was running with was full DPS spec'd and seem to be pretty competitive with everyone else.
I guess mileage varies in the PUG community...
A dps cleric can do dps only when his capstone is active, which means half of the times. Otherwise it's doing as much damage as my faithful cleric. Now fights are much longer than they used to be, consequently, the damage of righteous DCs has been cut in half with mod 6.
My main is a DC, I have a pvorpal, I tried at the beginning of mod 6, ran something with people I know and my cleric's damage was 40% of the damage CWs do. These CWs also do 50% less damage than the best GWFs. I let you make the math and determine why it's better to bring more GWFs instead of debuff clerics.
In one thing he is right, AP grow fast as before through other Feats. So it's the same.
They do grow fast. But that exploit made you recover your AP like 3x as fast as your encounters came off cooldown. 5 secs meant that you could go daily, enc, at-will or two, daily enc2... well... ...unless you were HR you Dailies were available three times as often as your encounters, typically. The 15-20 seconds to refill a good virt can do is WAI, that offhand exploit wasn't. And it's history...
A dps cleric can do dps only when his capstone is active, which means half of the times. Otherwise it's doing as much damage as my faithful cleric. Now fights are much longer than they used to be, consequently, the damage of righteous DCs has been cut in half with mod 6.[...]
Absolutely not. The Righteous tree has a few more options there. I suggest you either roll yourself a cleric and have a look, or look it up on the forum or the wiki.
Also there's a typical fallacy many debuffers fall for: "I debuff good, so why ArPen, my debuff will do that...". Well, unless they changed the fundamental equations completely, Kaelac's number crunching guide (and my experience, though mainly pre-Mod-6) say differently: ArPen also is in the debuff equation, which leads to a low-ArPen debuffer also has low debuff efficiency. One of the reasons why everyone should stack debuff - tough as that is especially for a DC...
...so the cookie-cutter build without the proper stat stacking can come out as mediocre DPS, and mediocre debuff build with fairly low to inadequate healing. Haven't even ACTed my DC in Mod 6 so far, but I would be somewhat astonished if even these core equations would have changed.
A dps cleric can do dps only when his capstone is active, [...] Otherwise it's doing as much damage as my faithful cleric.[...]
...makes it doubtful that he's ever gone into the "DPS" cleric in any depth. Hence I trolled acticely. I do that rarely, but occasionally, I do.
Furthermore, the DPS dealt are not really what IMO the "DPS" build is all about in a Party - it's the debuffs. And the feat procs. But meh, I'm tired. Don't want to elaborate that now...
...makes it doubtful that he's ever gone into the "DPS" cleric in any depth. Hence I trolled acticely. I do that rarely, but occasionally, I do.
Furthermore, the DPS dealt are not really what IMO the "DPS" build is all about in a Party - it's the debuffs. And the feat procs. But meh, I'm tired. Don't want to elaborate that now...
My point is that it's always better to get another CW for extra CC or a GWF for damage instead of a righteous cleric. That's just math or utility. Another GWF will do more damage than what the cleric buffs can bring to a party.
My point is that it's always better to get another CW for extra CC or a GWF for damage instead of a righteous cleric. That's just math or utility. Another GWF will do more damage than what the cleric buffs can bring to a party.
Rightious feats: Weapons of light: 10% of your power for the group. 16k x 10%=1.6k=4% more group dmg. Bear your sins =10% more group dmg. Condemning Gaze 15% more dmg, uptime 50%= 7,5%. Dmg boost from feats: 21,5%
HP set: 30% more dmg.
BTS (empowered) 30% more dmg, ca 50% uptime = 15%. Hallowed ground: 40% more dmg, ca. 30% uptime 13,3% more dmg. Prophecy of doom 12,5% DR debuff, 50% uptime, 6,3% more dmg. Divine glow, 12,5% DR debuff and 12,5% dmg buff, 50% uptime, 12,5%.
This sums up to a average dmg buff for the party of 98,6% with buff/ debuff spikes of up to 176,5%. You cant have a perfect rotation and you dont hit all mobs/ players with the buffs/ debuffs, yes. But you dont play with bots, so a good player uses his dmg skills, when the buffs are up.
Thats just the dmg buffs, with foresight, brand of the sun and HG, the incoming dmg gets debuffed as well. Astral seal heals the group, as well as DG.
But a heal DC can do the same, you say? Yes, but with the same setup he heals the same and gives 21,5% less debuff.
But your teammembers are stupid and you cant run a perfect rotation, you say? Reduce the average buff to 50%, thats group buffs. You buff yourself and 4 other players, two DDs at last. One GWF (50%) one CW 25% your own dmg 12,5%, the other two players (lets say, they do 10% of the GWFs dmg each) 10%. Thats 97,5% of the 'bring one more' GWFs dmg, WORST CHASE. You lose and incredible ammount of 2,5% dmg and gain DR and heal, THATS math.
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited May 2015
I have played both on my dc and this mod I would prefer faithful because, quite simply in t2's you need the raw heals to keep the group alive.
Rightious feats: Weapons of light: 10% of your power for the group. 16k x 10%=1.6k=4% more group dmg. Bear your sins =10% more group dmg. Condemning Gaze 15% more dmg, uptime 50%= 7,5%. Dmg boost from feats: 21,5%
HP set: 30% more dmg.
BTS (empowered) 30% more dmg, ca 50% uptime = 15%. Hallowed ground: 40% more dmg, ca. 30% uptime 13,3% more dmg. Prophecy of doom 12,5% DR debuff, 50% uptime, 6,3% more dmg. Divine glow, 12,5% DR debuff and 12,5% dmg buff, 50% uptime, 12,5%.
This sums up to a average dmg buff for the party of 98,6% with buff/ debuff spikes of up to 176,5%. You cant have a perfect rotation and you dont hit all mobs/ players with the buffs/ debuffs, yes. But you dont play with bots, so a good player uses his dmg skills, when the buffs are up.
Thats just the dmg buffs, with foresight, brand of the sun and HG, the incoming dmg gets debuffed as well. Astral seal heals the group, as well as DG.
But a heal DC can do the same, you say? Yes, but with the same setup he heals the same and gives 21,5% less debuff.
But your teammembers are stupid and you cant run a perfect rotation, you say? Reduce the average buff to 50%, thats group buffs. You buff yourself and 4 other players, two DDs at last. One GWF (50%) one CW 25% your own dmg 12,5%, the other two players (lets say, they do 10% of the GWFs dmg each) 10%. Thats 97,5% of the 'bring one more' GWFs dmg, WORST CHASE. You lose and incredible ammount of 2,5% dmg and gain DR and heal, THATS math.
A build you like doesn't make it useful. It's still more interesting to bring one full support (DR, heals) cleric, a tank and then 3 good dps players with a controller instead of trying to add a righteous cleric in the equation. The righteous cleric brings absolutely nothing in terms of utility and relies on others to do damage, which is always a risk. But sure be my guest, play your cleric the way you want, just keep in mind that it doesn't make it an asset in the current environment. Zero CC, no damage on its own, subpar heals... Oh right there are debuffs. The last thing you need since T2s aren't farmable, but designed to be played once a day.
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instynctiveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,885Arc User
edited May 2015
Having a "DPS Cleric" is like bombing for peace or f*cking for virginity.
i wont take dps dcs because healing is so much more important this mod. i mean if we dont have heals were going to wipe again and again and again. theres no reason to take them when cw does the job better.
A build you like doesn't make it useful. It's still more interesting to bring one full support (DR, heals) cleric, a tank and then 3 good dps players with a controller instead of trying to add a righteous cleric in the equation. The righteous cleric brings absolutely nothing in terms of utility and relies on others to do damage, which is always a risk. But sure be my guest, play your cleric the way you want, just keep in mind that it doesn't make it an asset in the current environment. Zero CC, no damage on its own, subpar heals... Oh right there are debuffs. The last thing you need since T2s aren't farmable, but designed to be played once a day.
T1 are farmable. With a semivalid group and a rightous DC we never had to do caskets and the ELOL fights are faster. A good group (~2.5-3.5k IL) can finish them in ca. 10 min without t. feytouched or other OP feats.
It seems, that you havent played DC for a while. Two of the 3 encounters listed are CCs. Furthermore, you contradict yourself, if you claim, that debuffs are no reason to take a DC for faster runs, but advocate another GWF, for faster runs. If you opt for more CC, I understand the reasoning, but more dmg...
Everyone has his own playstyle. We have great runs with rightous DCs, if you dont like them, it is your opinion, but dont claim, that math proves your opinion and dismiss real math as an opinion. Your rightous Dc might not be viable for your group composition, that does not make it subpar in total.
My point is that it's always better to get another CW for extra CC or a GWF for damage instead of a righteous cleric. That's just math or utility. Another GWF will do more damage than what the cleric buffs can bring to a party.
So, Righteous DC - in addition to their own significant damage - makes the Target take up to 25% more damage from all sources, gives people around them 10% of the DCs power, +8% damage and +8% DR. With the right choice of encounters, this can even be upped by another -10%DR for targets, +10%DR and +15% damage in bursts. Also heals to quite some extent on the aside without even using healing spells...
Of course all that damage lands on everybody elses paingiver tabs, not the DC's. Also on top of the Class-feature buffs for everyone that most DCs could field if they would.
Gotta be a real good CW to go along to fit your math... ...or a really meh party.
And for the GWF: Currently maybe yes. But one could reword that and say "Another Lostmouth setbonus carrier". Which might or might not have a future, not up to me to decide...
That Righteous DC don't heal is just a fable: with the right setup you heal what's needed (no overheals that are not needed) and you can be useful to the party too.
With AC Righteous you can heal with Bastion of Health (remind that the empowered version can insta-heal over 200k), prevent damage with Astral Shield and Buff/Debuff/Heal with Divine Glow. It's just a matter of playing smart, i went with PUGs and in guild premade and had no problem of heals, and also have:
10% buff of my power to the party (2k power) with Weapons of Light
15% buff of my power to the party (3k power) with BoB feat
10% DR debuff with Bear you Sins procced with Fire of the Gods (48% crit chance)
50% of target power with Anointed Army (a character with 20k power go to 30k power, insane)
5% AP with non-divine version of BoH and DG with Gift of Haste
I play full support with Righteous and I think that's the best, makes really no sense to make an healbot in PvE when you have a versatile class. I repeat, BoH empowered can insta-heal 150/200k on Tanks, so there are no problems of heals.
Problem is the queing system, it would be a big improvement if you could chose your role by queing, so in case you want to go DPS, press the DPS button.
But since Cryptic doesn´t implement a dual specc and fails in all aspects to improve the queing system all have to suffer
just look at PVP, the matchmaking was a joke, so they solved it by making it impossibel to see the gear from other team, lol
so my decision, coming from rightous, was simple in case i did not want to get kicked all time, I respecced to AC faithfull
DPS DC in mod 6 is possibel, but only inside your guild you can´t queue since you are no healer, btw its possibel to heal T1 but its not a fun, healing T2 is impossibel as rightous DC imo
DO rightous is in deed a powerfull teammate as written above, but i understand some power to be a bit different from posted above so its better in some case and worse in others, it´s hard to understand the tooltips and if the devine version profits in some cases or not:
Rightious feats: Weapons of light: 10% of your power for the group. 16k x 10%=1.6k=4% more group dmg. Bear your sins =10% more group dmg. Condemning Gaze 15% more dmg, uptime 50%= 7,5%. Dmg boost from feats: 21,5%
HP set: 30% more dmg.
BTS (empowered) 30% more dmg, ca 50% uptime = 15%. Hallowed ground: 40% more dmg, ca. 30% uptime 13,3% more dmg. Prophecy of doom 12,5% DR debuff, 50% uptime, 6,3% more dmg. Divine glow, 12,5% DR debuff and 12,5% dmg buff, 50% uptime, 12,5%.
This sums up to a average dmg buff for the party of 98,6% with buff/ debuff spikes of up to 176,5%. You cant have a perfect rotation and you dont hit all mobs/ players with the buffs/ debuffs, yes. But you dont play with bots, so a good player uses his dmg skills, when the buffs are up.
Thats just the dmg buffs, with foresight, brand of the sun and HG, the incoming dmg gets debuffed as well. Astral seal heals the group, as well as DG.
But a heal DC can do the same, you say? Yes, but with the same setup he heals the same and gives 21,5% less debuff.
But your teammembers are stupid and you cant run a perfect rotation, you say? Reduce the average buff to 50%, thats group buffs. You buff yourself and 4 other players, two DDs at last. One GWF (50%) one CW 25% your own dmg 12,5%, the other two players (lets say, they do 10% of the GWFs dmg each) 10%. Thats 97,5% of the 'bring one more' GWFs dmg, WORST CHASE. You lose and incredible ammount of 2,5% dmg and gain DR and heal, THATS math.
HP set gives -30% Damage resist not + 30% damage as i understand the tooltip
Hollowed ground is 20% damageresist and 20% damagebuff for 20 seconds not 40% damagebuff imo
Break the Spirit: You sap your target's strength, dealing damage over time and causing them to deal 20% less damage -->rank 4 50% debuff?
Break the Spirit (Divine): You stun the target briefly, dealing damage and reducing their damage by 10%, stacking up to 3 times. The stun gets shorter each subsequent cast on the same target.
--> can´t understand if the devine version profit from ranks or not, or if the debuff 10% is same rank 1 to rank 4, i think so
Break the Spirit (Empowered): Break the Spirit now consumes stacks of Empowered Break the Spirit to grant nearby allies
--> 30% damage buff for 8 sec
Prophecy of Doom (Divine): You deal instant damage to target foe. This damage is doubled if the target is affected by Prophecy of Doom.
Prophecy of Doom (Empowered): Prophecy of Doom now consumes stacks of Empowered Prophecy of Doom to increase the duration of Prophecy by 2 seconds per stack and the damage resistance debuff by 5% per stack.
if your rotation is:
1. DG (17,5% DR debuff+ 17,5% Dr buff) 6 seconds - 2. PoD normal mode (rank4 17,5% DR debuff ? for x sec)
3. devine version of DG 3x 15 (DR debuff+15 DR buff) for 6sec i guess, or do you take PoD devine mode 3x?
4. and empowered version from BTS 30% damagebuff 8 second
taking a P plaguefire on top u get the best Debuff-Damagedealer ingame i guess, in case the IBS from GWF crits fo 500k+ but your damage will be poor...
that only works in case your group is strong and scilled !
pugging means you meat underperforming undergeared player 80% of time , so only option is AC faithfull imo
I do a lot of damage, I re-run Dread Legion and even when buffing and protecting the party with Divine Glow and Astral Shield I did 6.7k of damage, a 70 level paladin did 4.6k and a level 70 warlock did 2.7k (that's fairly strange but...)
It's funny how you people are defending the "DPS cleric" by pointing out how it's an excellent support character. Ergo you are not actually defending the DPS cleric at all, simply proving to everyone else how the archetype is truly dead.
The DPS cleric has always been just an ephemeral build. It worked in mod5 because stuff was dying too fast and Avatar was constantly up, but in mod6 that is no longer the case. The buff/debuff/attack DC, however, has always been a solid character. Why bother with Daunting Light at all considering Avatar's 50% uptime and the way FotG procs? Why not slot BtS/FF/Divine Glow/Prophecy of Doom/chains/any other overall damage increase or potentially useful power the main healing DC can't slot because he can only use three encounters at a time? Hell Righteous should even be the one using Astral Seal, because that power's healing is based on the damage it does.
It remains to be seen if a good Righteous with the right stats/build can juggle healing/buffs/debuffs on its own, but Righteous definitely plays better as a leader/multiplier NOT a striker. Perhaps in the future they'll add a secondary leader role for parties, considering how classes like the Bard and the Druid play similar to Righteous.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
DO rightous is in deed a powerfull teammate as written above, but i understand some power to be a bit different from posted above so its better in some case and worse in others, it´s hard to understand the tooltips and if the devine version profits in some cases or not:
...
if your rotation is:
1. DG (17,5% DR debuff+ 17,5% Dr buff) 6 seconds - 2. PoD normal mode (rank4 17,5% DR debuff ? for x sec)
3. devine version of DG 3x 15 (DR debuff+15 DR buff) for 6sec i guess, or do you take PoD devine mode 3x?
4. and empowered version from BTS 30% damagebuff 8 second
...
The numbers I took from testing the skills for hours with another DO DC Mod5, exept BTS, the dmg buff got fixed, so we retested it. I use p.plf. The rotation you posted would be for a bossfight without the need to move much (VT). PoD has a very long chasting animation. For trash I switch BTS for chains, to get some CC and to apply the feat debuffs to as many targets as possible.
I begin with astral seal BotS on big trah/ boss, encounters (exept BtS), divine, empowered BtS. Reapply astral seal and BotS, new rotation and astral seal spam on trash. On bosses I stop spamming, when astral seal critted.
As I said, in Mod 6 I go with premade groups, bc ppl in PuGs expect heal, when they see DC. Once we filled up with a random CW, he kept complaining about more heal for him, I told him, that he has to do more dmg or stand next to the boss, near the tank for the heal. Another person who put me on ignore.
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
edited May 2015
The type of cleric necessary depends on the group. If your running with low geared and/or low skilled players. They need heals and lots of them. Their runs are going to be long and painful. So either take a dps role if your righteous or don't run with the group (i.e. as previously stated righteous shouldn't pug). Once your team reaches a certain level (and your build) more value will be placed on your contributions as a buff/debuff/dps. To much of anything gets wasted. You can have to much cc and not enough dps in a party just like you can have to much heals. Whenever i hear of someone proc'ing Gift of Faith in the millions, thats a lot of unused heals. This is not different than how the DC was in mod 1-3. Up to about 12k GS teams, everyone needed healers. The high GS teams used buff/debuff DCs. When you run with better equipped or skilled teams you will find they will care far less about heals and more about a quick fight.
On the twist side the righteous path is restricted to active heals (has nowhere near the passive abilities of virtuous or faithful). This means most of our heals are restricted to a 30' circle or a straight line. If you got a party full of kiting classes (i'm looking at you cws that like to take first agro instead of letting the gf gain agro before attacking). The straight line works better because they love to jump away from circles. If you have a group of melee circles work better than straight lines. If you find your party is geared and/or skilled you can slot less heals and add more buff/debuff encounters.
I for one do not run VT with an unfamiliar party if I can help it. The arena is to big and without passives it is hard to maintain heals for long fights. Most of the T2s have smaller arenas or require a playing style that focuses more on staying together so active heals are acceptable.
On the AP gen build, I think this build is totally viable and will be in demand by most dps groups. Why, your increasing their stats passively and not raining in on their ego driven parade of huge crits, etc. Will this build outshine the traditional buff/debuff build? Its hard to say, Even when Gift of Haste was broken and people were getting a daily every few seconds, often times Hallowed Ground was still a better option because of the debuff/buff capability.
And finally the comment about taking a gwf over a buff/debuff/dps DC. You must be high. Sure GWF does damage but it has no cc ability (thank you cws and trs) and they cannot mitigate team damage (thank you gfs, ops, hrs). I have seen a few good GWFs out there, but I can assure you the majority of them are not ranking higher on the paingiver chart than trs, cws, sws and dps dcs.
For now everyone should sit back and wait, as long as the feytouched and lostmouth sets are working the way they are, peoples first choice will be any class with those items. Second to that will come true team strategy/design.
It's funny how you people are defending the "DPS cleric" by pointing out how it's an excellent support character. Ergo you are not actually defending the DPS cleric at all, simply proving to everyone else how the archetype is truly dead
Of couse, there isn't any reason for making a non-support DC when it's the best support class. If you want a DPS class just roll a CW
I have chosen Healing Word over Bastion because Bastion is no use when people get panicked and scatter or aren't disciplined.
Anyway I want to ask a very important thing to me: it would be wise to invest the fourth power point on Healing Word or it's not so 'necessary'? I'm doing fine with 3 but is 4 really needed, could give it a nice boost?
HW cannot replace BOH for the simple reason that in this mod you need an heal burst, in case you can replace DG, but never BoH!
Scarecrow
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
edited May 2015
haha, you want a dps class role a CW?
CW is supposed to be a support class, that has been bastardized by NW to be a dps class.
Also just be cause a CW gets top of paingiver doesn't mean it is a good dps class. aoe on trash is irrelevant. Its all about what you can do single target on the boss. Which is why TRs and GWFs often top paingiver in ELoL where their is less trash.
all in all you even can go t2 playing with scilled group/premade playing a debuffer and it will go very quick
but eTOS endboss with rightous DC?
no way don´t tell me its an option, and if your group manages it you have BIS player who are scilled on top and perform the lack of healing away
rightous DC is good to farm t1 dungeon probably but i am sure T2 endboss is end of line for your rightous debuff DC
Also just be cause a CW gets top of paingiver doesn't mean it is a good dps class. aoe on trash is irrelevant. Its all about what you can do single target on the boss. Which is why TRs and GWFs often top paingiver in ELoL where their is less trash.
warlock, with right build is also a good singel target damage dealer, I do the double other deal on one target most time, but aoe is bad most of the time, since TT and dots underperform in short trashmob fights, so CW = trashmobkiller imo
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited May 2015
A. I have my HP still, but there is no way Im wearing it in a t2s. Even in t1s , a single hit from any random mob and your dead. There is many times In t1s and skirms my DC has been the start of the engagements, due to the immunity frames we have and if you have no true tank , you attack the point first, one mis step and a single hit will bring you down with HP on, with my pvp gear, I can take 1-2 at least with sliding around, I can be the first damage dispersal as we wait for cws /hrs/trs to deal thier cc and dps. You have limited yourself to ONE single role as a DC with HP on, that is , DPS/Debuffer.
B. regardless what I think of righteous, ANY time you need to drop your full debuff/dps rotation in favor for one healing skill like Bastion, you just made it x percantage worse. You have no real passive healing traits like virtuous /faithful and thus rely on all direct skills. This may work in a highly skills/geared group, so if your running in certain guilds with same people only, sure.. do what you want, if you run with different people ALL the time, with different ilevels, builds and skill.. this wont work.. not at all. You roll into legit with dps only and try to heal some fresh 70s through even kessells.. good luck.
So to sum it up I guess.. righteouss will work , with a certain type of group , but will not work for alot of others. Its pretty unforgiving at times.
Hp.. now there is a whole other thread, not sure what the advantage at all with wearing that is, your going to have terrible stats and stats are as needed as ever, even more so now, as the stat curves hit.. you need 30% crit, 15k power, and near 4k in all other fields give or take to ahve a solid build and 90-100k hps as well.
I cant even imagine trying to get those #s with old hp.
Comments
Furthermore, healers and tanks can already play that role to some extent and this is more than enough.
I don't know, either.
Had some successful T1 runs last week. I was healing on my Paladin, and we had a DPS cleric doing the damage/buffing thing.
I think it probably has something to do with the general metagame thinking of the general PUG community...of course it's also a big reason why the general PUG community is struggling in dungeons and mostly resorting to bugs and exploits to finish content.
My advice? Join a guild that welcomes all types of different playstyles.
It's not just that. It is clearly suboptimal. Tanks can use into the fray, clerics have divine glow, and anyway, with the new power creep in mod 6 and the lostmauth set, T2 final boss fights last 5 mins at most. Having a dps character using some utility spells (CWs with shard, TRs with smoke bomb, HRs with roots/daze) is always better than bringing a cleric with 0 utility besides pathetic damage and damage buffs any class has anyway.
It's like asking why people wouldn't invite fire CWs using ray of enfeeblement: because it's not needed and it would slow down a T2 run.
I guess mileage varies in the PUG community...
A dps cleric can do dps only when his capstone is active, which means half of the times. Otherwise it's doing as much damage as my faithful cleric. Now fights are much longer than they used to be, consequently, the damage of righteous DCs has been cut in half with mod 6.
My main is a DC, I have a pvorpal, I tried at the beginning of mod 6, ran something with people I know and my cleric's damage was 40% of the damage CWs do. These CWs also do 50% less damage than the best GWFs. I let you make the math and determine why it's better to bring more GWFs instead of debuff clerics.
They do grow fast. But that exploit made you recover your AP like 3x as fast as your encounters came off cooldown. 5 secs meant that you could go daily, enc, at-will or two, daily enc2... well... ...unless you were HR you Dailies were available three times as often as your encounters, typically. The 15-20 seconds to refill a good virt can do is WAI, that offhand exploit wasn't. And it's history...
Absolutely not. The Righteous tree has a few more options there. I suggest you either roll yourself a cleric and have a look, or look it up on the forum or the wiki.
Also there's a typical fallacy many debuffers fall for: "I debuff good, so why ArPen, my debuff will do that...". Well, unless they changed the fundamental equations completely, Kaelac's number crunching guide (and my experience, though mainly pre-Mod-6) say differently: ArPen also is in the debuff equation, which leads to a low-ArPen debuffer also has low debuff efficiency. One of the reasons why everyone should stack debuff - tough as that is especially for a DC...
...so the cookie-cutter build without the proper stat stacking can come out as mediocre DPS, and mediocre debuff build with fairly low to inadequate healing. Haven't even ACTed my DC in Mod 6 so far, but I would be somewhat astonished if even these core equations would have changed.
Top kek.
I don't know why I get to see similar stuff happening in game xD
...makes it doubtful that he's ever gone into the "DPS" cleric in any depth. Hence I trolled acticely. I do that rarely, but occasionally, I do.
Furthermore, the DPS dealt are not really what IMO the "DPS" build is all about in a Party - it's the debuffs. And the feat procs. But meh, I'm tired. Don't want to elaborate that now...
My point is that it's always better to get another CW for extra CC or a GWF for damage instead of a righteous cleric. That's just math or utility. Another GWF will do more damage than what the cleric buffs can bring to a party.
Rightious feats: Weapons of light: 10% of your power for the group. 16k x 10%=1.6k=4% more group dmg. Bear your sins =10% more group dmg. Condemning Gaze 15% more dmg, uptime 50%= 7,5%. Dmg boost from feats: 21,5%
HP set: 30% more dmg.
BTS (empowered) 30% more dmg, ca 50% uptime = 15%. Hallowed ground: 40% more dmg, ca. 30% uptime 13,3% more dmg. Prophecy of doom 12,5% DR debuff, 50% uptime, 6,3% more dmg. Divine glow, 12,5% DR debuff and 12,5% dmg buff, 50% uptime, 12,5%.
This sums up to a average dmg buff for the party of 98,6% with buff/ debuff spikes of up to 176,5%. You cant have a perfect rotation and you dont hit all mobs/ players with the buffs/ debuffs, yes. But you dont play with bots, so a good player uses his dmg skills, when the buffs are up.
Thats just the dmg buffs, with foresight, brand of the sun and HG, the incoming dmg gets debuffed as well. Astral seal heals the group, as well as DG.
But a heal DC can do the same, you say? Yes, but with the same setup he heals the same and gives 21,5% less debuff.
But your teammembers are stupid and you cant run a perfect rotation, you say? Reduce the average buff to 50%, thats group buffs. You buff yourself and 4 other players, two DDs at last. One GWF (50%) one CW 25% your own dmg 12,5%, the other two players (lets say, they do 10% of the GWFs dmg each) 10%. Thats 97,5% of the 'bring one more' GWFs dmg, WORST CHASE. You lose and incredible ammount of 2,5% dmg and gain DR and heal, THATS math.
A build you like doesn't make it useful. It's still more interesting to bring one full support (DR, heals) cleric, a tank and then 3 good dps players with a controller instead of trying to add a righteous cleric in the equation. The righteous cleric brings absolutely nothing in terms of utility and relies on others to do damage, which is always a risk. But sure be my guest, play your cleric the way you want, just keep in mind that it doesn't make it an asset in the current environment. Zero CC, no damage on its own, subpar heals... Oh right there are debuffs. The last thing you need since T2s aren't farmable, but designed to be played once a day.
Just sayin.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
Someone create a channel for this and id join. I would but work has me only getting weekends off.
T1 are farmable. With a semivalid group and a rightous DC we never had to do caskets and the ELOL fights are faster. A good group (~2.5-3.5k IL) can finish them in ca. 10 min without t. feytouched or other OP feats.
It seems, that you havent played DC for a while. Two of the 3 encounters listed are CCs. Furthermore, you contradict yourself, if you claim, that debuffs are no reason to take a DC for faster runs, but advocate another GWF, for faster runs. If you opt for more CC, I understand the reasoning, but more dmg...
Everyone has his own playstyle. We have great runs with rightous DCs, if you dont like them, it is your opinion, but dont claim, that math proves your opinion and dismiss real math as an opinion. Your rightous Dc might not be viable for your group composition, that does not make it subpar in total.
So, Righteous DC - in addition to their own significant damage - makes the Target take up to 25% more damage from all sources, gives people around them 10% of the DCs power, +8% damage and +8% DR. With the right choice of encounters, this can even be upped by another -10%DR for targets, +10%DR and +15% damage in bursts. Also heals to quite some extent on the aside without even using healing spells...
Of course all that damage lands on everybody elses paingiver tabs, not the DC's. Also on top of the Class-feature buffs for everyone that most DCs could field if they would.
Gotta be a real good CW to go along to fit your math... ...or a really meh party.
And for the GWF: Currently maybe yes. But one could reword that and say "Another Lostmouth setbonus carrier". Which might or might not have a future, not up to me to decide...
Mine is a fekkin Cleric of Tempus, the War God, and cracks hazelnuts where you want to preserve virginity...
I'd deem that RiDO build fully in character. Just sayin...
Count me in, too. Though a Pally for tanking should/could IMHO be allowed in, too...
With AC Righteous you can heal with Bastion of Health (remind that the empowered version can insta-heal over 200k), prevent damage with Astral Shield and Buff/Debuff/Heal with Divine Glow. It's just a matter of playing smart, i went with PUGs and in guild premade and had no problem of heals, and also have:
10% buff of my power to the party (2k power) with Weapons of Light
15% buff of my power to the party (3k power) with BoB feat
10% DR debuff with Bear you Sins procced with Fire of the Gods (48% crit chance)
50% of target power with Anointed Army (a character with 20k power go to 30k power, insane)
5% AP with non-divine version of BoH and DG with Gift of Haste
I play full support with Righteous and I think that's the best, makes really no sense to make an healbot in PvE when you have a versatile class. I repeat, BoH empowered can insta-heal 150/200k on Tanks, so there are no problems of heals.
But since Cryptic doesn´t implement a dual specc and fails in all aspects to improve the queing system all have to suffer
just look at PVP, the matchmaking was a joke, so they solved it by making it impossibel to see the gear from other team, lol
so my decision, coming from rightous, was simple in case i did not want to get kicked all time, I respecced to AC faithfull
DPS DC in mod 6 is possibel, but only inside your guild you can´t queue since you are no healer, btw its possibel to heal T1 but its not a fun, healing T2 is impossibel as rightous DC imo
DO rightous is in deed a powerfull teammate as written above, but i understand some power to be a bit different from posted above so its better in some case and worse in others, it´s hard to understand the tooltips and if the devine version profits in some cases or not:
HP set gives -30% Damage resist not + 30% damage as i understand the tooltip
Hollowed ground is 20% damageresist and 20% damagebuff for 20 seconds not 40% damagebuff imo
Break the Spirit: You sap your target's strength, dealing damage over time and causing them to deal 20% less damage -->rank 4 50% debuff?
Break the Spirit (Divine): You stun the target briefly, dealing damage and reducing their damage by 10%, stacking up to 3 times. The stun gets shorter each subsequent cast on the same target.
--> can´t understand if the devine version profit from ranks or not, or if the debuff 10% is same rank 1 to rank 4, i think so
Break the Spirit (Empowered): Break the Spirit now consumes stacks of Empowered Break the Spirit to grant nearby allies
--> 30% damage buff for 8 sec
Prophecy of Doom (Divine): You deal instant damage to target foe. This damage is doubled if the target is affected by Prophecy of Doom.
Prophecy of Doom (Empowered): Prophecy of Doom now consumes stacks of Empowered Prophecy of Doom to increase the duration of Prophecy by 2 seconds per stack and the damage resistance debuff by 5% per stack.
if your rotation is:
1. DG (17,5% DR debuff+ 17,5% Dr buff) 6 seconds - 2. PoD normal mode (rank4 17,5% DR debuff ? for x sec)
3. devine version of DG 3x 15 (DR debuff+15 DR buff) for 6sec i guess, or do you take PoD devine mode 3x?
4. and empowered version from BTS 30% damagebuff 8 second
taking a P plaguefire on top u get the best Debuff-Damagedealer ingame i guess, in case the IBS from GWF crits fo 500k+ but your damage will be poor...
that only works in case your group is strong and scilled !
pugging means you meat underperforming undergeared player 80% of time , so only option is AC faithfull imo
i assume the warlock was in follow up mode
The DPS cleric has always been just an ephemeral build. It worked in mod5 because stuff was dying too fast and Avatar was constantly up, but in mod6 that is no longer the case. The buff/debuff/attack DC, however, has always been a solid character. Why bother with Daunting Light at all considering Avatar's 50% uptime and the way FotG procs? Why not slot BtS/FF/Divine Glow/Prophecy of Doom/chains/any other overall damage increase or potentially useful power the main healing DC can't slot because he can only use three encounters at a time? Hell Righteous should even be the one using Astral Seal, because that power's healing is based on the damage it does.
It remains to be seen if a good Righteous with the right stats/build can juggle healing/buffs/debuffs on its own, but Righteous definitely plays better as a leader/multiplier NOT a striker. Perhaps in the future they'll add a secondary leader role for parties, considering how classes like the Bard and the Druid play similar to Righteous.
The numbers I took from testing the skills for hours with another DO DC Mod5, exept BTS, the dmg buff got fixed, so we retested it. I use p.plf. The rotation you posted would be for a bossfight without the need to move much (VT). PoD has a very long chasting animation. For trash I switch BTS for chains, to get some CC and to apply the feat debuffs to as many targets as possible.
I begin with astral seal BotS on big trah/ boss, encounters (exept BtS), divine, empowered BtS. Reapply astral seal and BotS, new rotation and astral seal spam on trash. On bosses I stop spamming, when astral seal critted.
As I said, in Mod 6 I go with premade groups, bc ppl in PuGs expect heal, when they see DC. Once we filled up with a random CW, he kept complaining about more heal for him, I told him, that he has to do more dmg or stand next to the boss, near the tank for the heal. Another person who put me on ignore.
On the twist side the righteous path is restricted to active heals (has nowhere near the passive abilities of virtuous or faithful). This means most of our heals are restricted to a 30' circle or a straight line. If you got a party full of kiting classes (i'm looking at you cws that like to take first agro instead of letting the gf gain agro before attacking). The straight line works better because they love to jump away from circles. If you have a group of melee circles work better than straight lines. If you find your party is geared and/or skilled you can slot less heals and add more buff/debuff encounters.
I for one do not run VT with an unfamiliar party if I can help it. The arena is to big and without passives it is hard to maintain heals for long fights. Most of the T2s have smaller arenas or require a playing style that focuses more on staying together so active heals are acceptable.
On the AP gen build, I think this build is totally viable and will be in demand by most dps groups. Why, your increasing their stats passively and not raining in on their ego driven parade of huge crits, etc. Will this build outshine the traditional buff/debuff build? Its hard to say, Even when Gift of Haste was broken and people were getting a daily every few seconds, often times Hallowed Ground was still a better option because of the debuff/buff capability.
And finally the comment about taking a gwf over a buff/debuff/dps DC. You must be high. Sure GWF does damage but it has no cc ability (thank you cws and trs) and they cannot mitigate team damage (thank you gfs, ops, hrs). I have seen a few good GWFs out there, but I can assure you the majority of them are not ranking higher on the paingiver chart than trs, cws, sws and dps dcs.
For now everyone should sit back and wait, as long as the feytouched and lostmouth sets are working the way they are, peoples first choice will be any class with those items. Second to that will come true team strategy/design.
HW cannot replace BOH for the simple reason that in this mod you need an heal burst, in case you can replace DG, but never BoH!
CW is supposed to be a support class, that has been bastardized by NW to be a dps class.
Also just be cause a CW gets top of paingiver doesn't mean it is a good dps class. aoe on trash is irrelevant. Its all about what you can do single target on the boss. Which is why TRs and GWFs often top paingiver in ELoL where their is less trash.
but eTOS endboss with rightous DC?
no way don´t tell me its an option, and if your group manages it you have BIS player who are scilled on top and perform the lack of healing away
rightous DC is good to farm t1 dungeon probably but i am sure T2 endboss is end of line for your rightous debuff DC
warlock, with right build is also a good singel target damage dealer, I do the double other deal on one target most time, but aoe is bad most of the time, since TT and dots underperform in short trashmob fights, so CW = trashmobkiller imo
B. regardless what I think of righteous, ANY time you need to drop your full debuff/dps rotation in favor for one healing skill like Bastion, you just made it x percantage worse. You have no real passive healing traits like virtuous /faithful and thus rely on all direct skills. This may work in a highly skills/geared group, so if your running in certain guilds with same people only, sure.. do what you want, if you run with different people ALL the time, with different ilevels, builds and skill.. this wont work.. not at all. You roll into legit with dps only and try to heal some fresh 70s through even kessells.. good luck.
So to sum it up I guess.. righteouss will work , with a certain type of group , but will not work for alot of others. Its pretty unforgiving at times.
Hp.. now there is a whole other thread, not sure what the advantage at all with wearing that is, your going to have terrible stats and stats are as needed as ever, even more so now, as the stat curves hit.. you need 30% crit, 15k power, and near 4k in all other fields give or take to ahve a solid build and 90-100k hps as well.
I cant even imagine trying to get those #s with old hp.