Righteous can heal eToS, stand on back side of Syndrith, use healing word for ranged, ideally you have two melee and at least one cw (if not two) for cc on adds. Use divine glow on melee, healing word on through melee onto ranged. Keep astral seal and BotS on Syndrith for passive heals and debuff. Hallow Ground to aid in damage. Your GF shouldnt need to run KV so you can forgo using astral shield to mitigate damage, your gonna help heal him with HW and divine glow anyhow.
Phase 2 is all about positioning to ensure Syndrith doesn't get healed by the right spectral spiders and ensures damage from the giant spectral spiders aoe. But righteous is not for every group. The longer the fight, the more important it is to have passive heals to cover your mistakes.
The nice thing about eToS is its not the spike one hit kills that get you, its the steady stream of small hits that wear you down, hopefully your cws can cc adds, and your gf keeps you free of agro, since self healing is a problem.
I will warn you, if your a high damage DC in a low DPS group, you will get agro and lots of it. In this new mod, we are not as well equipped to handle it.
Warlocks can do great dps. I've seen warlocks top and bottom of pain giver charts so there seems to be a wide variety in there. Not sure what that is about and since i refuse to do the RP feed on alts I guess i will not find out. I really miss the old days when experimenting with a class was as simple as paying the gold to move over enchants.
I heard the HP set was real useful for the old eCC nets and standing on the ledge tricks. Since you did not have to worry about taking damage. I think if tiamat was a real raid (i.e. you could build your team and plan your attack), it would be worth it to take and protect a HP wearing DC. In any case I will save mine because you never know when it may come in handy, guess that's 4 less rp saving slots i have for the 30+ types of RP stacked in game now.
CWs don't do the most single target of all classes.
Damnation SWs are bugged, don't use them as argument.
Please learn more about the game before giving nonfitting advices to others.
Ok, you're right. Can we now talk about the argument of the topic and not of a joke? Maybe you don't know the right CWs, maybe I don't know the right other DPSers, I really don't care. Mine was a joke to say that DPS DC is not viable because the support role of the class, if I hurt you sensibility I apologize, but I think it didn't need 4 posts.
@putzboy78: yeah, that's the good tactic to make a really easy peasy eTOS run, never tried the other path with AA? I think it's the powerful weapon a DC can have, even better than HG!
Scarecrow
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
Right-specced CWs on single target can outdps almost all classes, just BiS GWFs and Damnation SWs can do best, but it's a little bit Off Topic.
As I say, it makes no-sense to do DPS DC, because it isn't his role, I don't want to make a ***** challenge on "omgidomoredpsthanyou"
I'm not sure we are having the same conversation. My point was that a CW is theoretically not supposed to be a dps, focus first is control then damage based on "class role". However, that has been bastardized by NW because CWs have been damage first for a long long time (run eToS second boss with randoms, see how many cws put OP on the boss instead of turning it on the adds to shield support and tank from the 60% and 30% mob spawns).
DC should not out damage a similarly geared CW, and they do not. Even in Mod 5 they typically did not. If a CW stands close enough to a righteous dc to take advantage of weapons of light. Stand still for buffs like divine glow, etc they can do major damage. Most pug CWs don't seem to do that, as a matter of fact in pugs you can barely get them to stay inside of the huge circle we call Hallowed Ground.
D&D allows for customization in classes, in theory a CW can go very high in damage but should only do so at the expense of survive-ability and control. I'm sure somewhere there is a radar chart that illustrates the range of attributes attainable by class. I imagine multiple characteristics with the points labeled things like survive-ability, control, heals, damage,... Under that guise no class should be able to be dominate in more than one characteristic at a time. So there's nothing wrong with playing the way you enjoy regardless of class, just work with your team. If you want to be pure dps, don't take a healer spot. (I do queue dps Kessel's because its a skirmish and in theory i shouldn't have to heal, if you need heals in a skirmish, you shouldn't pug, you should be using lfg and ensuring you enter with the team design that fits your skill, gear, and playing style).
Where we get the complaints about OP and/or imbalance is when a class can be dominate in multiple areas at one time with relatively low stats (yes with enough stats you should be able to dominate multiple areas in lower geared groups). For example now everyone is screaming about TRs because they have high survive-ability and high damage even at low gear scores (especially with lostmauth set). Right now their is a bit of class imbalance in the lower-mid gear range. Specially healer DCs and CWs can get into parties with comparatively lower stats. Some of the other classes don't really shine until the higher stats are obtained. I feel sorry for them because its hard to imagine this game being fun for those guys right now.
The type of cleric necessary depends on the group. If your running with low geared and/or low skilled players. They need heals and lots of them. Their runs are going to be long and painful. So either take a dps role if your righteous or don't run with the group (i.e. as previously stated righteous shouldn't pug). Once your team reaches a certain level (and your build) more value will be placed on your contributions as a buff/debuff/dps. To much of anything gets wasted. You can have to much cc and not enough dps in a party just like you can have to much heals. Whenever i hear of someone proc'ing Gift of Faith in the millions, thats a lot of unused heals. This is not different than how the DC was in mod 1-3. Up to about 12k GS teams, everyone needed healers. The high GS teams used buff/debuff DCs. When you run with better equipped or skilled teams you will find they will care far less about heals and more about a quick fight.
On the twist side the righteous path is restricted to active heals (has nowhere near the passive abilities of virtuous or faithful). This means most of our heals are restricted to a 30' circle or a straight line. If you got a party full of kiting classes (i'm looking at you cws that like to take first agro instead of letting the gf gain agro before attacking). The straight line works better because they love to jump away from circles. If you have a group of melee circles work better than straight lines. If you find your party is geared and/or skilled you can slot less heals and add more buff/debuff encounters.
I for one do not run VT with an unfamiliar party if I can help it. The arena is to big and without passives it is hard to maintain heals for long fights. Most of the T2s have smaller arenas or require a playing style that focuses more on staying together so active heals are acceptable.
On the AP gen build, I think this build is totally viable and will be in demand by most dps groups. Why, your increasing their stats passively and not raining in on their ego driven parade of huge crits, etc. Will this build outshine the traditional buff/debuff build? Its hard to say, Even when Gift of Haste was broken and people were getting a daily every few seconds, often times Hallowed Ground was still a better option because of the debuff/buff capability.
And finally the comment about taking a gwf over a buff/debuff/dps DC. You must be high. Sure GWF does damage but it has no cc ability (thank you cws and trs) and they cannot mitigate team damage (thank you gfs, ops, hrs). I have seen a few good GWFs out there, but I can assure you the majority of them are not ranking higher on the paingiver chart than trs, cws, sws and dps dcs.
For now everyone should sit back and wait, as long as the feytouched and lostmouth sets are working the way they are, peoples first choice will be any class with those items. Second to that will come true team strategy/design.
Even with excellent players, you can use strong heals/mitigation builds. The purpose is different. It's to allow them to take some hits while killing things. When someone's char drops under 20% hit points usually there are a few seconds of panic or focus on damage avoidance. If you make them skip that step so that they're back to full dps instantly you're also helping your party tremendously to maintain a high dps.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
edited May 2015
agreed, there is no one right answer and only time will tell on what the dps community prefers. My bet is the standard lfg crowd will be pushing for AP gain builds because it lets them use more daily's. The pve farming guilds (what's left of them) will probably want buff/debuff/dps clerics using light heals. The GF will probably get replaced by a DPS first in favor of a 4dps 1healer setup. Depending on survivability requirements they may want builds with passive heals, or maybe they will just want a buff/debuff/dps dc to keep bastian slotted in the case of emergencies.
The reality is that noone is going to farm the T2s as currently designed, eLoL, eVT, and kessels can be done without a healer (i haven't tried the new eMC so i cannot speak to it but i haven't heard of a reason to farm it either). SoT I've healed while righteous so its not an issue. You can't pick your group for tiamat so it doesn't matter either way.
For now we just focus on getting our stats up, and see how Mod 6 plays out.
CWs are effectively DPS/striker characters in Neverwinter (on top of being a controller). In D&D wizards were masters of burst damage/control but were hampered by casting time/survivability/positioning issues. This is NOT the case in Neverwinter, and you can NOT blame the devs because they actually tried to balance CW casting time/survivability at some point and the negative response was MASSIVE.
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[...] taking a P plaguefire on top u get the best Debuff-Damagedealer ingame i guess, in case the IBS from GWF crits fo 500k+ but your damage will be poor...
that only works in case your group is strong and scilled !
pugging means you meat underperforming undergeared player 80% of time , so only option is AC faithfull imo[...]
Plaguefire is IMHO less optimal than Terror, especially if you get the Terror up to Pure rarity. For one, your attacks are rather slow, next you'll have to interrupt every now and then for healing, and lastly the 40% power debuff absolutely isn't to be sniffed at. Also reduces the healing demand :^)
I have both a PuPF and a PuTerr on board, and keep my eyes peeled for other team members' enchantments. And use the one that's not in the group...
And re. weak parties etc.: From a certain point on your meek little Astral Seal does more than half of the healing trick for the party - if they have adequate ArPen. Only trouble is keeping the Tank hale and healthy, and if you have a fight where somone specializes on fending off the adds, they need some love, too... ...that's why I like HW so much - fast + multiple casting, difficult to dodge...
There's really nothing preventing Virtuous/Faithful from using Divine Glow/BtS/FF. They will still outheal Righteous even with just these powers, and on top of that Faithful can spam Divine/fully Empowered mode powers faster (potentially higher buff/debuff uptime) while Virtuous provides AP gain (synergy with a LOT of abilities, including cooldown reduction). Contrary to what a lot of people are spouting atm, Faithful and Virtuous did get some nice upgrades this mod.
In the end Righteous may be superior at debuffing mobs and improving party DPS among DCs, but it's plain wrong to start claiming that the other DCs are nowhere near Righteous when it comes to doing this. It's just that if you can come up with a party combination that requires even less healing than what Virtuous/Faithful using DG/BtS/FF can provide then Righteous would be ideal.
This is all assuming ideal circumstances though, which is pointless atm. Better to argue that there should be a secondary leader slot for parties that tweaked/fixed Temptlocks/Renegades/Righteous/some other unique class paragon path (including future ones) can queue for. You can even squeeze a tweaked Trapper in there (let's face it - good Trappers who can spam Fox Cunning + control are more like a CW/DC hybrid atm).
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From a certain point on your meek little Astral Seal does more than half of the healing trick for the party - if they have adequate ArPen. Only trouble is keeping the Tank hale and healthy, and if you have a fight where somone specializes on fending off the adds, they need some love, too... ...that's why I like HW so much - fast + multiple casting, difficult to dodge...
getting near oneshottet doesn´t make a difference if a crit AS is on the mob or not, best prevention against it is gift of faith on top or very strong dots
until you did not go random and prooved the capabilty of DC rightfull in eTOS I do not believe its a good deal, sry
ever tried to heal adventurer party in DO rightous mode?
I guess no, I did severeal times as AC faithfull, keeping tank alive and up all time , so this discussion is as always from different point of views
5% of the player that run with BIS or premade groups claim to do well running with a DC rightous healer
95% of the players going average-joe-party and random can´t follow your advice, and have to work for their success
its to die 20 time in one T2 run or not to die >20 times in one run, buffed or not buffed for your 20% + damage from rightous, btw if thats the arument saying DC rightous performs >> overall?
i only can say: dream on
my GWF: mark targets-->think its 20% -DR, student of the aword another 5% mitigation lowered, wicked strike debuffs enemies 3x
so my advice would be take a faithfull DC (he can also buff/debuff+ more heal) and a GWF in the party let the rightous stay outside?
my Warlock: dark revelry +20% power and speed to allies, can´t say if group takes advantage from more feats since tooltip is "cryptic"
GF also buffs a lot just, you are not alone rightous DC
p plaguefire the debuff seems to fade away in <1 second, and its near to impossible to keep 3 stacks up, even 2 stacks are hard to get... seems a bit broken, as most things in this game, or worthless if it was intended this way, GWF works well with it
P Terror costs 6mio up, lots of AD, so its again p2win
getting near oneshottet doesn´t make a difference if a crit AS is on the mob or not, best prevention against it is gift of faith on top or very strong dots
until you did not go random and prooved the capabilty of DC rightfull in eTOS I do not believe its a good deal, sry
ever tried to heal adventurer party in DO rightous mode?
I guess no, I did severeal times as AC faithfull, keeping tank alive and up all time , so this discussion is as always from different point of views
5% of the player that run with BIS or premade groups claim to do well running with a DC rightous healer
95% of the players going average-joe-party and random can´t follow your advice, and have to work for their success
its to die 20 time in one T2 run or not to die >20 times in one run, buffed or not buffed for your 20% + damage from rightous, btw if thats the arument saying DC rightous performs >> overall?
i only can say: dream on
my GWF: mark targets-->think its 20% -DR, student of the aword another 5% mitigation lowered, wicked strike debuffs enemies 3x
so my advice would be take a faithfull DC (he can also buff/debuff+ more heal) and a GWF in the party let the rightous stay outside?
my Warlock: dark revelry +20% power and speed to allies, can´t say if group takes advantage from more feats since tooltip is "cryptic"
GF also buffs a lot just, you are not alone rightous DC
p plaguefire the debuff seems to fade away in <1 second, and its near to impossible to keep 3 stacks up, even 2 stacks are hard to get... seems a bit broken, as most things in this game, or worthless if it was intended this way, GWF works well with it
P Terror costs 6mio up, lots of AD, so its again p2win
Righteous DC provide more debuff than any other DC path..period. Condemming gaze (15% dmg from all source) and Bear the sin ( 10% dmg from all source). We are designed to debuff in the DC family tree. Many DC dun see it coz alot Righteous DC go for pure dps in mod 5...but there are some Righteous that go for debuff and party survival.
its about healing a party or not, and noone in this forum wants to tell me that he is well performing in healing effectively a random group and running smooth T2 dungeon going rightous, are you?
we all know that DC rightous is a debuffer/buffer, It is no mysterium you have to repeat 100 times again, please
thats not the point, i played myself rightous since 2 weeks ago, I would appreciate staying rightous in mod 6, since its more fun, I also went T1 as rightous and it ok, bit more work for sure
but I only can go on taht way running premade groups T2, strong player, no pugging, understand?
so only option is going full heal, got it?
its simple to understand imo, but some always tell same things 100 times again and again
healing T2 is spammimng heals like ****, you need fast divinity all time, spam BoH as faithfull, so getting there you take gift of the gods f.e., you can go there being rightous, but you miss a lot in the last 20 point inc. capstone, thats lots of healing so as passive healing
a strong party can compensate this, sure, but no pug party
BIS premade parties can do lots of things, seeing CW tanking the mob groups, you even do not need a tank to get to the endboss in some cases
some ppl use broken stuff hole time and get along, if i take a mix from all bugs in this game i can achieve anything i want
as I wrote, GWF also debuffs in marking targets, he is also tanking mobs, does cc by doing so and is more suitable in eTOS endboss than a squishy DC, on top he deals much more damage on singel target than DC dealing up to 500k crits with IBS
so if the party setup is tank+heal+CW (control), you need one damagedealer doing focus on boss (WL, TR, GWF f.e.) so chose another class, what is your choice GWF/CW/DC/TR?
maybe a rightous DC for overall damage or maybe a GWF that melts mobs faster, maybe a 2. CW that is always a good choice, can´t say
rightous DC is a nice build and i would like to have him into party if this groupfinder would give him a possibility taking a caster role
I would not go with him as main healer in eCC or eTOS and wipe 50 times in a random group
its about healing a party or not, and noone in this forum wants to tell me that he is well performing in healing effectively a random group and running smooth T2 dungeon going rightous, are you?
Same goes for all three paths.
None of them will carry a random group smoothly through T2! If the people got the gear and the skill, you can success with any build.
we all know that DC rightous is a debuffer/buffer, It is no mysterium you have to repeat 100 times again, please
thats not the point, i played myself rightous since 2 weeks ago, I would appreciate staying rightous in mod 6, since its more fun, I also went T1 as rightous and it ok, bit more work for sure
but I only can go on taht way running premade groups T2, strong player, no pugging, understand?
so only option is going full heal, got it?
A strong non PUG group would benefit more from righteous, since people can actually dodge AoEs and use their life steal chance. Faithful is the cheap end of workday build. You can relax
I would not go with him as main healer in eCC or eTOS and wipe 50 times in a random group
Not wiping once after a bit of training. It's harder to keep everyone alife, but you get more DPS for the BiS crowd.
Why are you bringing up PUGs anyways? You don't run with randoms these days, cause randoms don't have what it takes to finish T2.
...
5% of the player that run with BIS or premade groups claim to do well running with a DC rightous healer
95% of the players going average-joe-party and random can´t follow your advice, and have to work for their success
...
my GWF: mark targets-->think its 20% -DR, student of the aword another 5% mitigation lowered, wicked strike debuffs enemies 3x
so my advice would be take a faithfull DC (he can also buff/debuff+ more heal) and a GWF in the party let the rightous stay outside?
my Warlock: dark revelry +20% power and speed to allies, can´t say if group takes advantage from more feats since tooltip is "cryptic"
GF also buffs a lot just, you are not alone rightous DC
...
Due to the fact, that I run premade, do I get to say 'ppl running PuG claim to do better with heal DC'? No, bc it is logical.
Sorry to burst your bubble. The GWF feats you mentioned boost your dmg, not group dmg. For example SoS got changed 2 or 3 MODs ago from '+5% dmg from all sources' to +5% dmg. There might be a bug with mark stacking, that would a) just affect a few classes and b) be irrelevant, due to the fact, that most dmg PvE GWFs use SM builds. They neither have automark or, your debuff, wicked strike.
SW, thats it, no more buffs, exept LS, with certain builds and a cetain 'dmg-debuff' that might get fixed.
Who claimed, that GF would not be strong buffers? ITF is one of the strongest group buffs.
If your group struggles with surviveability, take a heal DC. If you can faceroll a dungeon or need more dps, take a buff DC. For example, we did VT to gear up two guild members of a friend, 1.6-2.2 IL. First runs we did with a faithful DC and my CW. We did not have enough dmg to burn her. We switched DC to rightous and killed her without a problem (exept the usual server lags).
PS I LOVE how ppl begin to cry about P2w, if they read premade or BIS. Premade is just your logical choice, when you cant faceroll things alone and you dont want to waste your time and BIS does not say P2w, just good gear. Some might have paid for it, some might have exploited, but most ppl I know are just a) playing for a longer time, b) more dedicated or c) simply smarter than most players.
You want an example, no have AD to make AD thing? Greater marks of power/ union. Everyone new, that they get them in DR for free. They went for 8k AD. Cryptic said, that they will change the drops in the instances. Smart player goes to preview, sees, that mystic artefacts, artefact gear and R 12s need greater marks of power etc (demand). Smart player runs DR and sees, that the sure drop changed to a drop chance (lowered supply). He runs them for month until the update hits live. Without spending a single AD he has a boatload of greater marks, selling his surplus for millions of AD on double RP weekend, 25k-50k AD a pop. Funny thing is, I told ALL of my friends about the upcoming changes and maybe 10% did farm them. You can allways count on the lazyness of ppl.
its about healing a party or not, and noone in this forum wants to tell me that he is well performing in healing effectively a random group and running smooth T2 dungeon going rightous, are you?
.........
Sure, I can. I do it all the time. Nothing about being Righteous means you can't heal, it just means you don't save up excess healing as a Gift of Faith. There's nothing that prevents any feat path of DC from being a good healer in a group, since you can slot any spells you like.
None of them will carry a random group smoothly through T2!
wrong, I do and my GS i 2,3 going random, no premade and being far away from BIS
so I don´t need a premade group that carry my lack of healing away
If the people got the gear and the skill, you can success with any build.
right
A strong non PUG group would benefit more from righteous
right, I did´nt say its not that way
Due to the fact, that I run premade, do I get to say 'ppl running PuG claim to do better with heal DC
go random as lots of ppl do and try out, come back and tell us your impression...
...be irrelevant, due to the fact, that most dmg PvE GWFs use SM builds. They neither have automark or, your debuff, wicked strike.
look at the barracks and look for the actual builds that are posted , daring shout is used in these builds, IBS marks as well, wicked strike is optional, nomally used WMS
PS I LOVE how ppl begin to cry about P2w, if they read premade or BIS. Premade is just your logical choice, when you cant faceroll things alone and you dont want to waste your time and BIS does not say P2w, just good gear. Some might have paid for it, some might have exploited, but most ppl I know are just a) playing for a longer time, b) more dedicated or c) simply smarter than most players.
no cry, only the fact that you talk about a small minority of 3-4k GS faceroll-world, we have to work for success and its ok for me
[...]
my GWF: mark targets-->think its 20% -DR, student of the aword another 5% mitigation lowered, wicked strike debuffs enemies 3x
so my advice would be take a faithfull DC (he can also buff/debuff+ more heal) and a GWF in the party let the rightous stay outside?
my Warlock: dark revelry +20% power and speed to allies, can´t say if group takes advantage from more feats since tooltip is "cryptic"
GF also buffs a lot just, you are not alone rightous DC
p plaguefire the debuff seems to fade away in <1 second, and its near to impossible to keep 3 stacks up, even 2 stacks are hard to get... seems a bit broken, as most things in this game, or worthless if it was intended this way, GWF works well with it
P Terror costs 6mio up, lots of AD, so its again p2win
Well, mine was perfect in Mod 3 or 4 already, and before Mod 6 hit I stocked up on shards... ...though the point is somewhat valid. You'll maybe even have to build it slowly (which I did with mine throughout Mod 3). Still this is in no way P2W, just foresight and/or a lonngterm project (because the high price also means building one from shards does go cheaper). And foresight could've told you that the prices are going to rise, and pre-Mod-6 it's been ridiculously cheap because everybody and their grandma wanted Vorpal, which was already overpriced then...
Oh, many classes buff a lot, also CWs, Pallies, GFs, HRs. SW. Only for the TR I'm fairly certain they don't have buffs. And many small buffs also can stack up to large totals. Few people slot these. Especially in the low gear PUG parties I'd expect everyone to rather slot something giving +10% damage to them rather than buffing the party's damage by 5%. Even more so if the +10% skill has higher base damage.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited May 2015
TRs have access to few debuffs, basically Wicked Reminder and Courage Breaker, and feated Disheartening Strike if you play a Whisperknife.
clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
edited May 2015
I am curious to hear from the righteous clerics what they are getting in the paingiver rankings. I have a virtuous and consistently finish last on any t1/t2 dungeon or any skirmish. I don't expect to win paingiver but I have noticed that even guardians and palladins often get double of what I get (even with much lower stats than me), this however does indicate how doing solo content has become glacial for non righteous clerics.
Likewise what are you getting in the field medic rankings ? I consistently will top the field medic rankings but the difference there is not as much as in the paingiver rankings. For example in an ECC I had 4 million in field medic and an uber cw had 1.5 million (still not sure how they got that because I saw them mostly with health bars on full), but on paingiver they had around 40 million and I had 3 million. And yes I know, one should not base everything on those rankings, a virtuous can provide great support with the action point gain, but there will be many others who don't and will start looking at the numbers and will start to think that clerics don't offer much.
As has already been mentioned here, players might wisen up and require ever less healing, I can already see the day where winning field medic will not be given anymore, so perhaps going back to being righteous will be the way to go again.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
I am curious to hear from the righteous clerics what they are getting in the paingiver rankings. I have a virtuous and consistently finish last on any t1/t2 dungeon or any skirmish. I don't expect to win paingiver but I have noticed that even guardians and palladins often get double of what I get (even with much lower stats than me), this however does indicate how doing solo content has become glacial for non righteous clerics.
If mobs get rounded up in a clump Righteous DCs can deal a huge deal of burst damage with their AoE spamming. Damage output starts to drop when everything is spread all over the place.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
I am curious to hear from the righteous clerics what they are getting in the paingiver rankings. I have a virtuous and consistently finish last on any t1/t2 dungeon or any skirmish. I don't expect to win paingiver but I have noticed that even guardians and palladins often get double of what I get (even with much lower stats than me), this however does indicate how doing solo content has become glacial for non righteous clerics.
Depends on my role, if I'm in a dps slot, I will usually do about 70-80% of the damage of a equal ilvl CW. Which to me is a lot considering the size of aoes that a dc has available. If I'm running full heals (i.e. astral shield, healing word, bastion of health, and hallowed ground), I'm usually a little above the tank. But being righteous i can choose my role (i.e. if they want heals, i do not have to go). If i had the lastmouth artifact set instead of the imperial, I would probably out damage an equal ilvl CW.
Likewise what are you getting in the field medic rankings ?
Like above, it really depends, on a ecc run as heals 4-5 M heals is typical. Unless your group is really bad, then obviously you can spend a lot of time healing. If your over 5M in heals and not at the boss, its time to find a new group. lol
My personal recommendation, if your stuck grinding T2s and with people who need heals, stick with a healing tree (unless you have the stats to ensure your healing encounters are still potent), when the T2s are no longer required, consider making the change so you can farm solo content easier.
I've also been in parties with a "healer" and it was so bad, i slotted 50% heals to help carry. So being on a healing tree is not necessarily enough. I like righteous because it gives me options on how i play the game. Thanks to the RP feed for managing alts (which i refuse to do anymore) everyone is getting trapped into strong financial commitments, or playing the same style on one build. A crit based DC can heal, can damage, can buff/debuff, can do anything. It provides more flexibility than any other class ATM (personal opinion). So when i party, i tweak my rotation as I become familiar with the other players.
I honestly fail to see how a competent striker class player could be so bad they can't significantly outDPS a Righteous DC who is essentially giving him/her a 25% damage boost. How terrible must they be if they can't even pull at least 50% more DPS considering Avatar only has 50% uptime? HRs have 6 encounters, Wizards have 4, Warlocks have Tyrannical Threat, TRs are TRs and GWFs have their massive burst. ALL of these classes, with the sole exception of the TR, have spammable AoE at-wills, which means if they use the Lostmauth set then DC DPS will be left in the dust.
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I am curious to hear from the righteous clerics what they are getting in the paingiver rankings. I have a virtuous and consistently finish last on any t1/t2 dungeon or any skirmish. I don't expect to win paingiver but[...] but on paingiver they had around 40 million and I had 3 million. And yes I know, one should not base everything on those rankings, a virtuous can provide great support with the action point gain, but there will be many others who don't and will start looking at the numbers and will start to think that clerics don't offer much.
As has already been mentioned here, players might wisen up and require ever less healing, I can already see the day where winning field medic will not be given anymore, so perhaps going back to being righteous will be the way to go again.
I'm a AC DC Virtuous, so I'm off topic by default, but I' fully agree with clericalist. Generally speaking, whatever is your build, if you can complete the dungeons or PvP and progess in your long term project, that's ok without any other discussion. I believe that a competition between the different cleric paths is a useless discussion that goes nowhere.
If you're fine with your build, if you can progress, if the teams you're playing with are happy, there's nothing else to say.
Being a full healer/+AP spammer, a powerful buff/debuff cleric (rigtheous) asked me: why don't you mix righteous and virtuous so that you can buff up +25% of your power? My answer is simple: because I am comfortable with my build, I can progress, I can finish all the dungeons, it's appreciated both by premade and random teams, I know how to play with it and I can perform my role very well. It' not a question of what is the best, but what fits best for me. It's like that it is the same for that cleric: the good news is that we're both happy of our builds.
With a good OP tank in a random team, I was able to finish eToS in 4: the GWF died after few minutes, the CW and the TR made a very good job. It took a little bit to kill the boss, but everything was very smooth. I can recover my AP in 1 and a half rotation of the healing powers, casting my dailies very often: then it's just a matter of what kind of daily and here the cleric have some good options. For example I mix HG (buff) and AA (protection/heal), depending on the team and the dungeon.
Again, I believe that if you can progress in your project with your cleric (whatever build you have), then you're ok: no discussion.
Of course, the progress can be fast or not and it depends on how your cleric is percieved. Here you enter in a mix of ignorance, expectations, perceptions by the other players/classes like "If you don't heal, I don't need you" or "buff/debuff is not a priority". So i wouldn't mix up powerful builds with how they are percieved. This is probably the main gap that it's not easy to fill sometimes: how many players know that I can buff +15% of my 20K power using Blessing of Battle? Very very very a few in my experience at least with random teams. How many times have you heard players saying "Ty GF for buffing me"...and the only thing I can do is a facepalm, after having buffed the team with +3K power all the time.
I fully support the statement:"I can already see the day where winning field medic will not be given anymore, so perhaps going back to being righteous will be the way to go again".
In that case, I will do a respec: very easy.
I think that, as a support class, the cleric is very flexible: close-to-death heals, regenerative heals, AP spammer, a good number of buff/debuff, even some protection on the virtuous path. Whatever is the evolution of this game, the cleric can be adapted.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Comments
Right-specced CWs on single target can outdps almost all classes, just BiS GWFs and Damnation SWs can do best, but it's a little bit Off Topic.
As I say, it makes no-sense to do DPS DC, because it isn't his role, I don't want to make a ***** challenge on "omgidomoredpsthanyou"
Righteous can heal eToS, stand on back side of Syndrith, use healing word for ranged, ideally you have two melee and at least one cw (if not two) for cc on adds. Use divine glow on melee, healing word on through melee onto ranged. Keep astral seal and BotS on Syndrith for passive heals and debuff. Hallow Ground to aid in damage. Your GF shouldnt need to run KV so you can forgo using astral shield to mitigate damage, your gonna help heal him with HW and divine glow anyhow.
Phase 2 is all about positioning to ensure Syndrith doesn't get healed by the right spectral spiders and ensures damage from the giant spectral spiders aoe. But righteous is not for every group. The longer the fight, the more important it is to have passive heals to cover your mistakes.
The nice thing about eToS is its not the spike one hit kills that get you, its the steady stream of small hits that wear you down, hopefully your cws can cc adds, and your gf keeps you free of agro, since self healing is a problem.
I will warn you, if your a high damage DC in a low DPS group, you will get agro and lots of it. In this new mod, we are not as well equipped to handle it.
Warlocks can do great dps. I've seen warlocks top and bottom of pain giver charts so there seems to be a wide variety in there. Not sure what that is about and since i refuse to do the RP feed on alts I guess i will not find out. I really miss the old days when experimenting with a class was as simple as paying the gold to move over enchants.
@silverkelt,
I heard the HP set was real useful for the old eCC nets and standing on the ledge tricks. Since you did not have to worry about taking damage. I think if tiamat was a real raid (i.e. you could build your team and plan your attack), it would be worth it to take and protect a HP wearing DC. In any case I will save mine because you never know when it may come in handy, guess that's 4 less rp saving slots i have for the 30+ types of RP stacked in game now.
btw i used HP for transmute, aren't i pretty :-)
fyi elemental elven boots look terrible
Damnation SWs are bugged, don't use them as argument.
Please learn more about the game before giving nonfitting advices to others.
Heroes of Darkness
Retired since 02/15
My opinions are my own. Please do not judge my friends nor guild for my statements.
Ok, you're right. Can we now talk about the argument of the topic and not of a joke? Maybe you don't know the right CWs, maybe I don't know the right other DPSers, I really don't care. Mine was a joke to say that DPS DC is not viable because the support role of the class, if I hurt you sensibility I apologize, but I think it didn't need 4 posts.
@putzboy78: yeah, that's the good tactic to make a really easy peasy eTOS run, never tried the other path with AA? I think it's the powerful weapon a DC can have, even better than HG!
I'm not sure we are having the same conversation. My point was that a CW is theoretically not supposed to be a dps, focus first is control then damage based on "class role". However, that has been bastardized by NW because CWs have been damage first for a long long time (run eToS second boss with randoms, see how many cws put OP on the boss instead of turning it on the adds to shield support and tank from the 60% and 30% mob spawns).
DC should not out damage a similarly geared CW, and they do not. Even in Mod 5 they typically did not. If a CW stands close enough to a righteous dc to take advantage of weapons of light. Stand still for buffs like divine glow, etc they can do major damage. Most pug CWs don't seem to do that, as a matter of fact in pugs you can barely get them to stay inside of the huge circle we call Hallowed Ground.
D&D allows for customization in classes, in theory a CW can go very high in damage but should only do so at the expense of survive-ability and control. I'm sure somewhere there is a radar chart that illustrates the range of attributes attainable by class. I imagine multiple characteristics with the points labeled things like survive-ability, control, heals, damage,... Under that guise no class should be able to be dominate in more than one characteristic at a time. So there's nothing wrong with playing the way you enjoy regardless of class, just work with your team. If you want to be pure dps, don't take a healer spot. (I do queue dps Kessel's because its a skirmish and in theory i shouldn't have to heal, if you need heals in a skirmish, you shouldn't pug, you should be using lfg and ensuring you enter with the team design that fits your skill, gear, and playing style).
Where we get the complaints about OP and/or imbalance is when a class can be dominate in multiple areas at one time with relatively low stats (yes with enough stats you should be able to dominate multiple areas in lower geared groups). For example now everyone is screaming about TRs because they have high survive-ability and high damage even at low gear scores (especially with lostmauth set). Right now their is a bit of class imbalance in the lower-mid gear range. Specially healer DCs and CWs can get into parties with comparatively lower stats. Some of the other classes don't really shine until the higher stats are obtained. I feel sorry for them because its hard to imagine this game being fun for those guys right now.
Even with excellent players, you can use strong heals/mitigation builds. The purpose is different. It's to allow them to take some hits while killing things. When someone's char drops under 20% hit points usually there are a few seconds of panic or focus on damage avoidance. If you make them skip that step so that they're back to full dps instantly you're also helping your party tremendously to maintain a high dps.
The reality is that noone is going to farm the T2s as currently designed, eLoL, eVT, and kessels can be done without a healer (i haven't tried the new eMC so i cannot speak to it but i haven't heard of a reason to farm it either). SoT I've healed while righteous so its not an issue. You can't pick your group for tiamat so it doesn't matter either way.
For now we just focus on getting our stats up, and see how Mod 6 plays out.
Dragon Heralds runs are the best and easiest to join thing where wearing HP again shines brightly.
Plaguefire is IMHO less optimal than Terror, especially if you get the Terror up to Pure rarity. For one, your attacks are rather slow, next you'll have to interrupt every now and then for healing, and lastly the 40% power debuff absolutely isn't to be sniffed at. Also reduces the healing demand :^)
I have both a PuPF and a PuTerr on board, and keep my eyes peeled for other team members' enchantments. And use the one that's not in the group...
And re. weak parties etc.: From a certain point on your meek little Astral Seal does more than half of the healing trick for the party - if they have adequate ArPen. Only trouble is keeping the Tank hale and healthy, and if you have a fight where somone specializes on fending off the adds, they need some love, too... ...that's why I like HW so much - fast + multiple casting, difficult to dodge...
In the end Righteous may be superior at debuffing mobs and improving party DPS among DCs, but it's plain wrong to start claiming that the other DCs are nowhere near Righteous when it comes to doing this. It's just that if you can come up with a party combination that requires even less healing than what Virtuous/Faithful using DG/BtS/FF can provide then Righteous would be ideal.
This is all assuming ideal circumstances though, which is pointless atm. Better to argue that there should be a secondary leader slot for parties that tweaked/fixed Temptlocks/Renegades/Righteous/some other unique class paragon path (including future ones) can queue for. You can even squeeze a tweaked Trapper in there (let's face it - good Trappers who can spam Fox Cunning + control are more like a CW/DC hybrid atm).
getting near oneshottet doesn´t make a difference if a crit AS is on the mob or not, best prevention against it is gift of faith on top or very strong dots
until you did not go random and prooved the capabilty of DC rightfull in eTOS I do not believe its a good deal, sry
ever tried to heal adventurer party in DO rightous mode?
I guess no, I did severeal times as AC faithfull, keeping tank alive and up all time , so this discussion is as always from different point of views
5% of the player that run with BIS or premade groups claim to do well running with a DC rightous healer
95% of the players going average-joe-party and random can´t follow your advice, and have to work for their success
its to die 20 time in one T2 run or not to die >20 times in one run, buffed or not buffed for your 20% + damage from rightous, btw if thats the arument saying DC rightous performs >> overall?
i only can say: dream on
my GWF: mark targets-->think its 20% -DR, student of the aword another 5% mitigation lowered, wicked strike debuffs enemies 3x
so my advice would be take a faithfull DC (he can also buff/debuff+ more heal) and a GWF in the party let the rightous stay outside?
my Warlock: dark revelry +20% power and speed to allies, can´t say if group takes advantage from more feats since tooltip is "cryptic"
GF also buffs a lot just, you are not alone rightous DC
p plaguefire the debuff seems to fade away in <1 second, and its near to impossible to keep 3 stacks up, even 2 stacks are hard to get... seems a bit broken, as most things in this game, or worthless if it was intended this way, GWF works well with it
P Terror costs 6mio up, lots of AD, so its again p2win
Righteous DC provide more debuff than any other DC path..period. Condemming gaze (15% dmg from all source) and Bear the sin ( 10% dmg from all source). We are designed to debuff in the DC family tree. Many DC dun see it coz alot Righteous DC go for pure dps in mod 5...but there are some Righteous that go for debuff and party survival.
we all know that DC rightous is a debuffer/buffer, It is no mysterium you have to repeat 100 times again, please
thats not the point, i played myself rightous since 2 weeks ago, I would appreciate staying rightous in mod 6, since its more fun, I also went T1 as rightous and it ok, bit more work for sure
but I only can go on taht way running premade groups T2, strong player, no pugging, understand?
so only option is going full heal, got it?
its simple to understand imo, but some always tell same things 100 times again and again
healing T2 is spammimng heals like ****, you need fast divinity all time, spam BoH as faithfull, so getting there you take gift of the gods f.e., you can go there being rightous, but you miss a lot in the last 20 point inc. capstone, thats lots of healing so as passive healing
a strong party can compensate this, sure, but no pug party
BIS premade parties can do lots of things, seeing CW tanking the mob groups, you even do not need a tank to get to the endboss in some cases
some ppl use broken stuff hole time and get along, if i take a mix from all bugs in this game i can achieve anything i want
as I wrote, GWF also debuffs in marking targets, he is also tanking mobs, does cc by doing so and is more suitable in eTOS endboss than a squishy DC, on top he deals much more damage on singel target than DC dealing up to 500k crits with IBS
so if the party setup is tank+heal+CW (control), you need one damagedealer doing focus on boss (WL, TR, GWF f.e.) so chose another class, what is your choice GWF/CW/DC/TR?
maybe a rightous DC for overall damage or maybe a GWF that melts mobs faster, maybe a 2. CW that is always a good choice, can´t say
rightous DC is a nice build and i would like to have him into party if this groupfinder would give him a possibility taking a caster role
I would not go with him as main healer in eCC or eTOS and wipe 50 times in a random group
None of them will carry a random group smoothly through T2! If the people got the gear and the skill, you can success with any build.
A strong non PUG group would benefit more from righteous, since people can actually dodge AoEs and use their life steal chance. Faithful is the cheap end of workday build. You can relax
Not wiping once after a bit of training. It's harder to keep everyone alife, but you get more DPS for the BiS crowd.
Why are you bringing up PUGs anyways? You don't run with randoms these days, cause randoms don't have what it takes to finish T2.
Heroes of Darkness
Retired since 02/15
My opinions are my own. Please do not judge my friends nor guild for my statements.
Due to the fact, that I run premade, do I get to say 'ppl running PuG claim to do better with heal DC'? No, bc it is logical.
Sorry to burst your bubble. The GWF feats you mentioned boost your dmg, not group dmg. For example SoS got changed 2 or 3 MODs ago from '+5% dmg from all sources' to +5% dmg. There might be a bug with mark stacking, that would a) just affect a few classes and b) be irrelevant, due to the fact, that most dmg PvE GWFs use SM builds. They neither have automark or, your debuff, wicked strike.
SW, thats it, no more buffs, exept LS, with certain builds and a cetain 'dmg-debuff' that might get fixed.
Who claimed, that GF would not be strong buffers? ITF is one of the strongest group buffs.
If your group struggles with surviveability, take a heal DC. If you can faceroll a dungeon or need more dps, take a buff DC. For example, we did VT to gear up two guild members of a friend, 1.6-2.2 IL. First runs we did with a faithful DC and my CW. We did not have enough dmg to burn her. We switched DC to rightous and killed her without a problem (exept the usual server lags).
PS I LOVE how ppl begin to cry about P2w, if they read premade or BIS. Premade is just your logical choice, when you cant faceroll things alone and you dont want to waste your time and BIS does not say P2w, just good gear. Some might have paid for it, some might have exploited, but most ppl I know are just a) playing for a longer time, b) more dedicated or c) simply smarter than most players.
You want an example, no have AD to make AD thing? Greater marks of power/ union. Everyone new, that they get them in DR for free. They went for 8k AD. Cryptic said, that they will change the drops in the instances. Smart player goes to preview, sees, that mystic artefacts, artefact gear and R 12s need greater marks of power etc (demand). Smart player runs DR and sees, that the sure drop changed to a drop chance (lowered supply). He runs them for month until the update hits live. Without spending a single AD he has a boatload of greater marks, selling his surplus for millions of AD on double RP weekend, 25k-50k AD a pop. Funny thing is, I told ALL of my friends about the upcoming changes and maybe 10% did farm them. You can allways count on the lazyness of ppl.
Sure, I can. I do it all the time. Nothing about being Righteous means you can't heal, it just means you don't save up excess healing as a Gift of Faith. There's nothing that prevents any feat path of DC from being a good healer in a group, since you can slot any spells you like.
wrong, I do and my GS i 2,3 going random, no premade and being far away from BIS
so I don´t need a premade group that carry my lack of healing away
right
right, I did´nt say its not that way
go random as lots of ppl do and try out, come back and tell us your impression...
look at the barracks and look for the actual builds that are posted , daring shout is used in these builds, IBS marks as well, wicked strike is optional, nomally used WMS
no cry, only the fact that you talk about a small minority of 3-4k GS faceroll-world, we have to work for success and its ok for me
Well, mine was perfect in Mod 3 or 4 already, and before Mod 6 hit I stocked up on shards... ...though the point is somewhat valid. You'll maybe even have to build it slowly (which I did with mine throughout Mod 3). Still this is in no way P2W, just foresight and/or a lonngterm project (because the high price also means building one from shards does go cheaper). And foresight could've told you that the prices are going to rise, and pre-Mod-6 it's been ridiculously cheap because everybody and their grandma wanted Vorpal, which was already overpriced then...
Oh, many classes buff a lot, also CWs, Pallies, GFs, HRs. SW. Only for the TR I'm fairly certain they don't have buffs. And many small buffs also can stack up to large totals. Few people slot these. Especially in the low gear PUG parties I'd expect everyone to rather slot something giving +10% damage to them rather than buffing the party's damage by 5%. Even more so if the +10% skill has higher base damage.
Neverwinter Census 2017
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Likewise what are you getting in the field medic rankings ? I consistently will top the field medic rankings but the difference there is not as much as in the paingiver rankings. For example in an ECC I had 4 million in field medic and an uber cw had 1.5 million (still not sure how they got that because I saw them mostly with health bars on full), but on paingiver they had around 40 million and I had 3 million. And yes I know, one should not base everything on those rankings, a virtuous can provide great support with the action point gain, but there will be many others who don't and will start looking at the numbers and will start to think that clerics don't offer much.
As has already been mentioned here, players might wisen up and require ever less healing, I can already see the day where winning field medic will not be given anymore, so perhaps going back to being righteous will be the way to go again.
If mobs get rounded up in a clump Righteous DCs can deal a huge deal of burst damage with their AoE spamming. Damage output starts to drop when everything is spread all over the place.
Depends on my role, if I'm in a dps slot, I will usually do about 70-80% of the damage of a equal ilvl CW. Which to me is a lot considering the size of aoes that a dc has available. If I'm running full heals (i.e. astral shield, healing word, bastion of health, and hallowed ground), I'm usually a little above the tank. But being righteous i can choose my role (i.e. if they want heals, i do not have to go). If i had the lastmouth artifact set instead of the imperial, I would probably out damage an equal ilvl CW.
Like above, it really depends, on a ecc run as heals 4-5 M heals is typical. Unless your group is really bad, then obviously you can spend a lot of time healing. If your over 5M in heals and not at the boss, its time to find a new group. lol
My personal recommendation, if your stuck grinding T2s and with people who need heals, stick with a healing tree (unless you have the stats to ensure your healing encounters are still potent), when the T2s are no longer required, consider making the change so you can farm solo content easier.
I've also been in parties with a "healer" and it was so bad, i slotted 50% heals to help carry. So being on a healing tree is not necessarily enough. I like righteous because it gives me options on how i play the game. Thanks to the RP feed for managing alts (which i refuse to do anymore) everyone is getting trapped into strong financial commitments, or playing the same style on one build. A crit based DC can heal, can damage, can buff/debuff, can do anything. It provides more flexibility than any other class ATM (personal opinion). So when i party, i tweak my rotation as I become familiar with the other players.
I'm a AC DC Virtuous, so I'm off topic by default, but I' fully agree with clericalist. Generally speaking, whatever is your build, if you can complete the dungeons or PvP and progess in your long term project, that's ok without any other discussion. I believe that a competition between the different cleric paths is a useless discussion that goes nowhere.
If you're fine with your build, if you can progress, if the teams you're playing with are happy, there's nothing else to say.
Being a full healer/+AP spammer, a powerful buff/debuff cleric (rigtheous) asked me: why don't you mix righteous and virtuous so that you can buff up +25% of your power? My answer is simple: because I am comfortable with my build, I can progress, I can finish all the dungeons, it's appreciated both by premade and random teams, I know how to play with it and I can perform my role very well. It' not a question of what is the best, but what fits best for me. It's like that it is the same for that cleric: the good news is that we're both happy of our builds.
With a good OP tank in a random team, I was able to finish eToS in 4: the GWF died after few minutes, the CW and the TR made a very good job. It took a little bit to kill the boss, but everything was very smooth. I can recover my AP in 1 and a half rotation of the healing powers, casting my dailies very often: then it's just a matter of what kind of daily and here the cleric have some good options. For example I mix HG (buff) and AA (protection/heal), depending on the team and the dungeon.
Again, I believe that if you can progress in your project with your cleric (whatever build you have), then you're ok: no discussion.
Of course, the progress can be fast or not and it depends on how your cleric is percieved. Here you enter in a mix of ignorance, expectations, perceptions by the other players/classes like "If you don't heal, I don't need you" or "buff/debuff is not a priority". So i wouldn't mix up powerful builds with how they are percieved. This is probably the main gap that it's not easy to fill sometimes: how many players know that I can buff +15% of my 20K power using Blessing of Battle? Very very very a few in my experience at least with random teams. How many times have you heard players saying "Ty GF for buffing me"...and the only thing I can do is a facepalm, after having buffed the team with +3K power all the time.
I fully support the statement:"I can already see the day where winning field medic will not be given anymore, so perhaps going back to being righteous will be the way to go again".
In that case, I will do a respec: very easy.
I think that, as a support class, the cleric is very flexible: close-to-death heals, regenerative heals, AP spammer, a good number of buff/debuff, even some protection on the virtuous path. Whatever is the evolution of this game, the cleric can be adapted.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF